Cowboy Dies

[ColColt]

I just received a set of RCBS Cowboy dies for the 38-55. It includes two expanders, one at .375" and the other at .377". Is it a good assumption the larger one is for cast bullets? Seems reasonable to me.

[Mk42gunner]

In theory. I think it really depends on the dimensions of your bore, and it seems the .38-55 has more reported variation than most other calibers. I have read of everything from .375" to .384".

Robert

[ColColt]

I've read the same but I'd think...there I go assuming, Winchester's Commemorates should be about the same. I just don't know what that will be until I get it and slug it. I'm hoping around .378". If I knew, I'd go ahead and order the size die.

[ColColt]

I just resized a few cases and expanded them and noticed the expander is causing a bulge around about half the diameter of the cases about half an inch down. I don't recall dies causing that kind of situation before. Any guesses?

[cwheel]

I'm at about the same point you are with yours. I slugged the bore and it measures .380. Mine was made in 1917 and I understand the changed the bore in production rifles to the smaller .375-.377 about 1920. After talking to RCBS on the phone, the biggest expander they offered was for the cowboy set @.3775. Because mine slugs at .380, I need to load a .381 boolit. After some thought I ended up making my own expander @
.379. Also had to make my own sizer die for my lyman 45 to .381 with a top punch to match. Used oil hardening tool steel and they turned out nice. For $25 bucks from Midway, I'd much rather of bought if .381 size was available. ( not a stock item ) Still had the problem that a loaded round was to big to chamber in my rifle due to the thickness of the brass at the case mouth. Some here suggested using Starline brass as it is made to address this problem. Wanting to use my new, old stock Winchester brass. So I sized the brass first, and ran a 3/8" reamer into the case mouth a little deeper than the boolit seats in the case. This made the ID of the case mouth .003 larger than stock and thinned the case mouth some. Thinking about ordering a .377 reamer, and it would work a little better. Note that I ream the cases in a lathe, don't try this in a drill press, you won't be able to center the case well enough to have it work out. It's turning out that reloading for this old 38-55 with the older .380 bore for black powder rounds is the hardest thing to reload that I have. Don't want to change the barrel out for a .375 because it's all original as it sets now, don't want to change a thing. 20 loaded rounds setting on the bench waiting to be fired now. Cast boolits from a lyman # 375296 and added gas checks. Boolit weighed in @265 gr. with the lube and gas check. Loaded them over from 27-28.5 gr. of 3031. Should get out soon and fire a few, see what they are doing, adjust the load from there. Good luck with yours, I'd start by slugging the bore, see what you have to work with.
Chris

[ColColt]

I don'nt have the expertise nor the equipment to do what you did...wish I had both. I've read in many sources what a pain it can be to load for this caliber and it almost turned me off but, I had wanted one of these years ago and finally decided to do it. I'll count my chickens when they hatch on the bore size. I have a nice round lead ball waiting for it when it gets here to shove down it's throat.:). I'm hoping it will be about .377" as I have a .379" die.

I'm still wondering why the expander is bulging one side of the case, though. Not much, but detectable.

[cwheel]

They use the same sizer die on the OD of the case regardless of what expander plug you use. With the larger expander, you have to stretch the brass more with the .3775 than with the .375 sizer plug. By the time the OD of the brass is sized, the bore at the case mouth is .372 inside dia. ( not with starline ) Going with the
.3775 on the first pass through the expander die doesn't "stretch" the case mouth evenly as it would with the smaller .375 expander. Starline brass might be different due to thinner case walls. I'd recommend using the
.375 expander first, and then run the .3775, do just a little at a time. Also, put a thin coat of case lube inside the mouth of the case, might let it expand more evenly. At least this is what I did on my first run, and they look good and even. Also, consider that I'm running a .375 reamer in first to remove some of the thickness of the case mouth, my results could be different than yours, after reaming in the lathe, my case walls are thinner. Smaller expander first might cure your problem.
Chris

[BCRider]

Colcolt, have you slugged your bore and done a chamber cast? If you have and you have some numbers then I'd suspect that some kindly Cast Boolits member in your area with the machines and skill would see their way to making up the correct size expander for your needs. At worst it would cost you some sort of trade in return.

If I was in your neck of the woods I'd be willing to do one up and send it along in exchange for the cost of postage. Us .38-55 types need to stick together after all. The .45-70 guys are just too quick to gang up on us and call us names after all... :D

As for the bulging cases... are you by chance using Lee equipment for loading?

[Nobade]

Don't size the cases after they are fired. Most 38-55s can be loaded with boolits that are a firm press in an unsized case and work very well.

If you have a situation where a boolit of groove diameter seated in a fired case won't chamber, you can load it with black powder like it is designed for, use soft lead, and it will work great also.

-Nobade

[ColColt]

The problem started with the .375" expander that came inserted in the expander die. That's the one I first noticed and exchanging for the .377" it of course, did likewise.

I haven't slugged the bore as I haven't gotten the rifle yet...should be here Thursday. I don't know how to do a chamber cast. I have everything else ready from the brass to the dies and thought I'd ready the brass ahead of time...size, prime, etc. Speaking of prime, I have only 300 large rifle primers and they're probably 20+ years old. I'm thinking they're still good but hate using priers that old but, you can't find those primers around here or the Internet. I'm on everyone's list for notification for if/when they become available.


As for the bulging cases... are you by chance using Lee equipment for loading?

Nope, I have the Classic Turret Press but, that's assigned to pistol reloading. I used the RCBS Jr to mount the size die. I've had that press for millenniums and had no problem with it so it's not the press.

[Pepe Ray]

Don't blame the dies for uneven buldging of cases.
ALL case walls are of uneven thickness untill they are OUTSIDE turned. Uneven buldges are more noticable
with increases in expansion dimensions. You ,probably, shouldn't be sizing the case. Try an unsized case in your chamber.

The old rifles were designed for Pure lead and black powder. SAMII (Sp?) changed everything and NOT for the good.
We now have a nightmare for beginners but a paradise for buffs who love complex challenges.
Someone should write a history for the beginners to read (if they would).
Pepe Ray

[ColColt]

I'm not blaming the dies. There is no reason to have to outside turn brass straight walled cases. Cases were meant to be resized or they can be difficult after a few loadings to go into the chamber. The 45 ACP is a straight walled case and it doesn't have to be outside turned. That doesn't make sense.

I'm hardly a beginner. I've been reloading since 1969 and don't recall running into this problem to include 45-70 cases and they're straight walled. The neck thickness of these Winchester brass is .011" on most all of them. I don't know about Starline as they are all but unavailable.

[cwheel]

Looking at your other post ColColt, it looks like you are getting a new rifle. Bet the largest bore you are going to find on that one will be .377, and more likely .375. Because of this I don't think you are going to have a need to expand past .375 ?? If that ends up being the case, reloading for that one should be quite easy. Us guys with the very old iron have more of a challenge. The old .380 bore is the one that's a pain. Get your rifle delivered, slug it before you spend any more or order any more reloading stuff. By the sticker on the barrel on the pic you posted, looks like new iron ??
Chris

[ColColt]

By the sticker on the barrel on the pic you posted, looks like new iron ??

If you're talking about the thread on the 94 Winchester, that's not the one I ended up with. That one was for the Short Rifle, as Winchester calls it. I decided on the Legendary Frontiersmen as it doesn't have the angle eject and is drilled and tapped on the receiver for Lyman/Williams sights, unlike the new ones.

[cwheel]

I have 2 boxes left of Winchester Legendary Frontiersman factory ammo from back in the late 70's. Guess this stuff is collectors ammo now. This stuff has nickel cases and is loaded with a .375 dia. 255 gr. soft point. I bet you are going to find you have a .375 bore in that rifle. I think they were made in the later part of the
1970's. It's unlikely you are going to end up with the old oversized bore with that one. I fired the first two boxes of that stuff through mine ( I had 4 boxes ) before I discovered that stuff just wouldn't shoot well in mine. Keyholed and sprayed them all over the target.
Chris

[ColColt]

The reason(maybe) it didn't group so well is because that ammo is .375" and your bore, since you didn't slug it to find out, could have been .377-.379". I have a similar box of the same thing with Oliver Winchester's picture on the box.

[cwheel]

My grandfathers passing sent me this rifle. At that time I wasn't even considering reloading for 38-55 and had not slugged the bore. This thing got a yearly cleaning and lived in the gun safe for the last 40 years. I'm sure I had no idea then that the bore would slug big. Interest now is working the bugs out and sending my grandson out with it for his first deer hunt. Think the first deer hunt with his great, great grandfathers gun will add to the hunt, and pass family history at the same time. Pic on my boxes is of a frontiersman mounted on a white horse. Stock # on the end flap is W3855LF. Neighbor offered couple of pounds of 3031 for these 2 couple of months ago, still hasn't happened though.
Chris

[ColColt]

You're lucky to have such an heirloom. I'd treasure it and probably keep it in the safe after the yearly cleaning... don't know that I could shoot it knowing that. I'd bet money that groove diameter is more than .375".

[TXGunNut]

Die set is designed for cast boolits, just gives you some flexibility to include two expander sizes. I have a set for my 32WS and ordered an extra expander for my 30-30. Works great for both, will size the entire neck before it flares the case mouth. For the 38-55 I'd simply back off the sizing die a bit, the bulge means you've resized it too small. All you want is enough to provide neck tension. I'd say you'll be better off waiting until you can slug your barrel before casting, sizing or loading any boolits.

[ColColt]

For the 38-55 I'd simply back off the sizing die a bit, the bulge means you've resized it too small.

I set the sizer according to their usual instructions which says to lower the sizer a 1/4 turn more once it touches the shell holder-typical for dies that aren't carbide. I'll wait until the rifle gets here and try to see if the brass will fit the chamber without sizing further. Even at that, sooner or later you're going to have to full length size to get the cartridge to chamber.

[cwheel]

Yes it does slug a might bigger than .375, it is the original .380 bore they put out the door in 1917. But knowing my grandfather, he would insist the grandson do the first hunt with it. Still in great shape though, more time in a scabbard on a horse than rounds through the bore.
Chris

[ColColt]

Can you post a couple pics of it? I'd like to see it.

[Green Lizzard]

on all my straight wall cases i only screw in the die body far enough to size the neck area for .002 tension, the bulge hurts nothing as far as acc. or function, so if the bulge dosnt bother you keep the die screwed all the way in

[cwheel]

Let's see if I can get these pics to attach. It's what some call a eastern carbine. Half mag, ( 3 in the tube ) crescent butt stock, 20" round thin barrel, saddle ring, post front sight, tangent rear. weighs in at a little under 6 lb. Going to ask for the factory records letter from Cody National Firearms and it should come back as a special order placed either by my grandfather or Hudson Bay co. in Canada.
Chris

[Gtek]

ColColt, I am not there, cannot see. Used cases? Inside of neck clean? Carbon fouling can be sticky stuff. The new Thumler with pins really cleans inside. Try brushing and then spraying down at 45 degree angle with Hornady one shot. I line mine up two wide on cardboard and quick pass run from four directions. If shot count is high or even tough new, may need annealing for final joy. Gtek

[wgr]

Thats the big problem with 38-55,s. they are 38cal. not 375. but all the die makers treat them as 375. fire form the brass and not resizt it you,ll be good to go. i have a taper crimp die that i use to just hold the rounds in the case.but i do have a single shot.

[ColColt]

These are new Winchester brass, never fired. I may try and back off on the size die a bit. I don't know if new cases even need resizing or not but that's been what I've always done, new or not. I don't think the expander should be bulging one side of the case, however.

OK-I just backed the size down out one full turn and ran through the expander. It still bulges the case half way around.

[cwheel]

Like someone else said, make sure all of the burrs are off the case mouth first before expanding. A burr can push the case off center and cause a bulge on one side. Still betting yours will end up a .375 with no need for the larger expander in the first place. Might want to hold off loading until you get it in your hands and have a chance to slug it.
Chris

[ColColt]

All cases are new and the inside/outside are deburred prior to sizing and case neck dipped in white powdered graphite to make moving over the expander easier. I get that bulge whether I use the .375" or .377" expander.

[cwheel]

72503Just came back from shooting mine. Working up the loads in Winchester brass, same as yours. These 265 gr gas checks didn't start working well until I got up to my highest load, 28.5 gr. of 3031. These went through the chrony @1575 fps, and went up or down 10 fps in the 10 rounds fired through. Let the thin barrel I have cool inbetween 4 shot groups. Not sure I'm done yet, might start working up to 29.5 next time. But 28.5 zeroed my sights @100, might end up being the best load, I have a tangent sight, no wedge to adjust elevation like a buckhorn sight. Final and best group was 2 1/4" @100 yards center to center. Last group of 5 fired off a bench with a rifle rest, I'm not that good. Bore on this one has dark spots, but it proved it sure can shoot. Final 10 rounds were fired offhand @ a measured 300 yards at a old 5 gallon propane tank hanging from a tree. 6 of the 10 shots were good hits off the tangent sight set @300 yards. The 28.5 gr load tracked with the sights out at least that far. Will try to attach the target to this post. Final group was slightly left of center in a 10 mph+ wind. Will work with this load some more, but the 28.5 might end up being the final load. Impact of that 265 gr. is like 2 30:30's. See why it was so popular back in the day. CoColt, would try to anneal your cases first if bulges are still a problem. Could be you have hard spots in the brass. I'm using the same brass @ 2.085 long, and at least for now, quite pleased with the first outing with cast boolits. These boolits were sized .381, + .001 over bore size
Chris

[Green Lizzard]

back the die out 4 or 5 turns

[TXGunNut]

All cases are new and the inside/outside are deburred prior to sizing and case neck dipped in white powdered graphite to make moving over the expander easier. I get that bulge whether I use the .375" or .377" expander.

Try turning the shell holder 180 degrees, see where the bulge goes. Check for tumbling media in the groove of the shell holder, make sure it's snapped into place on the ram. Try rolling a virgin case on a smooth surface. Something is out of whack here.

[ColColt]

Try turning the shell holder 180 degrees, see where the bulge goes. Check for tumbling media in the groove of the shell holder, make sure it's snapped into place on the ram. Try rolling a virgin case on a smooth surface. Something is out of whack here.

Just tried that and the bulge went from one side to the other.

[TXGunNut]

Check the the shell holder, it many have something foreign in it.

[ColColt]

Nope-nothing in the groove. This doesn't make sense. This is a Bair #2 shell holder as I don't have the ordered #2 RCBS yet. I assume the Bair is the same as RCBS and Hornady as Hornady bought out Pacific who was once Bair.

[TXGunNut]

If it's fully seated in the slot on the ram I think we've proved the shell holder is the culprit here. Hopefully the RCBS shell holder will get here before your rifle.

[ColColt]

In all likelihood you're right. The rifle won't get here till next Monday from the tracking I checked on. Plus, the dealer won't get to check it in that very day I'm sure so, probably looking at Tuesday, maybe Wednesday for the rifle. I'm hoping also the shell holder and a few other goodies ordered will be here by Friday or Saturday.

[cwheel]

As a side note CoColt, I notice that spinning my Winchester cases in my lathe, almost none run true, not even close. Thinking this bulk brass I got from Midway 10-15 years ago are likely seconds from Winchester production lines. They came in bulk boxes of 100 ea. with a Midway stock #134499. I might have missed this had I not had to ream the inside of the case mouths. Will it work, sure did yesterday. But your shell holder "could" be fine and the brass a little out of spec like mine, and produce the same results as a out of spec shell holder, not square to the die. Food for thought.
Chris

[ColColt]

I don't know when this brass was made and the only number I see indicated is WSC3855WU on front of each bag. They can't be too awfully old as on the front is the familiar bar code seen on everything anymore. I wish I had some Starline cases to compare.

I didn't look close enough. I found another number but probably wont tell much on the very bottom corner of the bag. Apparently this is the lot number...E125311 B41

[cwheel]

Another thing you could do to find out if it's the brass or the shell holder. Rotate the shell holder in quarters. If the bulge rotates "with" the shell holder when expanding, it's the shell holder. If it is random, it's the brass. If it's the shell holder, sounds like you have a new one coming. If it's the brass, anneal and try again. Shell holder should hold your brass dead center for the dies. Just something you can try with what you have.
Chris

[ColColt]

Well, the new #2 RCBS shell holder came today and it did no good at all. The cases are still bulging on one side...so much for the shell holder being the problem.

[TXGunNut]

Did you roll a case or two on a flat surface? Try to do it at eye level, you should be able to see runout. Also loosen the expander plug and use a sized case to center it.

[ColColt]

I did...yesterday or day before and they looked good to me. I've run out of reasons for this and not sure what else to try as this hasn't presented a problem with other dies/calibers.

[TXGunNut]

Seems like we're missing something. Have you taken out the expander plug for a look-see?

[ColColt]

More times than one. It looks perfect to the naked eye. Knowing how deceiving that can be I put a magnifying glass on it...perfect.

Maybe the expander is just not centering itself...my best guess at this point.

[square butte]

Perplexing indeed. How about a call to RCBS, They have tech folks that might be able to help find the answer. Do you know someone who has another set of dies that would let you run a few cases through. At least it would let you know if your dies were out of spec.

[ColColt]

I'm going to call today as soon as CA wakes up. They're three hours behind me. I don't know of anyone else who has this caliber locally or has the same dies to try them, unfortunately.

[ColColt]

OK-I called RCBS a while ago and didn't get a lot of help solving this mystery. After I told hem the problem and the various things I had done, he put me on hold for about five minutes, came back and said the "die guy" told him that since I was using new brass I'd probably get a bulge until I fired them and resized. That made no sense to me and I told him after firing I'd have to resize to get the rounds to chamber in a lever rifle and then I'd be back to square one as the size die would probably put the cases back to factory dimensions or less. He was stumped at that point. So, after getting off the phone with him I came up with another plan. I moved the shell holder out a bit from all the way in against the slot in the ram and ran another case into the expander die. I noticed the bulge wasn't as bad as earlier but still there. It seems to me the expander is just not hitting center of the case.

RCBS did tell me if I had a problem cambering the rounds after firing the first time to call them again and he'd let me talk to the die person for a possible fix.

[cwheel]

That would be a odd one. That would mean the cut for the shell holder in the ram of your press was machined out of spec, or not in a position to center the shell holder. What press are you using ?? If it is a RCBS, or some others, that sounds like a warranty issue. RCBS, no problem. The rest, the tooling gets older or dull. If that ends up being the problem, sure need to fix that first, no getting around it. I'm doing my second run of load workups. This run will be 28.5, 29, 29.5 and 30 gr. of 3031. Still no bulges in my Winchester cases, no problems at all. Should be the last workups, move on to a small production run of these.
Chris

[ColColt]

I've tried this in two presses. The first my RCBS Jr and the other a Lee Classic Turret press. I've had the Jr for decades and never had this problem with it even with 45-70 cases. It's not the press.

[square butte]

Have you tried another set of dies yet. If you can't find one locally, I have a set of RCBS I could mail down to you to try.

[ColColt]

I only have this one set and now of nobody who shoots this caliber. Everyone around here seems to be into Glocks and AR's...few with any type of rifle. If I had money to burn, I'd just get a set of Legacy dies and try them. That's awfully kind of you to offer but I couldn't have you do that.

[fouronesix]

I've loaded cast bullets in a LOT of different caliber straight sided cases for older guns using all manner of dies. It is common for the expander to go off center when expanding (actually the case is expanding off center because there is no brass tube perfect enough to expand evenly). This is especially true and most visibly evident when the case is sized all the way down in the sizer die then the neck expanded with an over-sized expander. The same thing happens when seating a fat cast bullet after using a regular sized expander with just a bell on the case mouth. In both instances the case neck is responding normally to putting something larger than originally designed into it- either the over-sized expander or the over-sized bullet. Rarely will a neck expand evenly when stretched open that far.

You might try this. Go ahead and load and shoot a few rounds to fire form them. Back out the sizer die so that it resizes the case JUST ENOUGH so the fire formed rounds chamber. Then try the expander again. And seat the same bullets. See if this helps. I think the RCBS rep was suggesting something similar to this.

Benchrest shooters fight this all the time. Very small runout cannot be seen. They use a runout gauge and start getting nervous when the runout in the neck exceeds .001-.002". What you are seeing is a neck runout that is many times that so it is quite visible to the naked eye.

[mroliver77]

I think they are not uniform in thickness. This would cause one part of the case to be stronger and force the expander to one side. When neck turning some brass is almost too bad to get cleaned up all the way around.
My Marlin has no trouble feeding brass that has not been full length sized. Dont worry about the die directions. Start with die way high and keep working it down a turn at a time until you start to resize the mouth. Only size until you have them small enough to hold the boolit with .002 interference. (.002 smaller than boolit) Some prefer like .003 or so so the expander opens it a bit as the id will be more uniform.
The only cases i fully resize are for semi auto rifles or "special needs" children.

[ColColt]

Well, I've tried everything in the book to no avail. RCBS even sent me a new shell holder thinking of the possibility the one I had could have been milled wrong. After getting it yesterday no change. It still does the same thing but they did tell me to send the die back along with the expander and shell holder and they'd have a technician look at it. Hopefully, they can come up with a reason for the problem. No other straight wall case I've had before did this.

[TXGunNut]

mroliver77 may be onto something. You only have the one lot of WW brass, right? If the die is correctly machined I'd order a couple bags of Starline brass. I'm not a fan of WW rifle brass but I've never had a serious problem with it, either. My go-to brass these days is Hornady or Starline. Made do with RP for years but good brass makes a big difference sometimes. None of my regular suppliers have any Starline brass at the moment, looks to be a couple of months out.

[ColColt]

I was lucky to find the Winchester brass it seems. I tried various places, including Starline, but none were available and Starline won't take orders until there's sufficient orders for it. So, for now it's Winchester until I get notification of Starline brass being offered. I have three bags of 50 of the Winchester but they're from the same lot.