311467 30-06 1917 Blues

[guicksylver]

Hi people I could use a little help here.

Been tough going it alone.

Before I sart I would like you to know that I have been surfing the site gleanig what I could,
thanks for all that great information.

Here's the skinny, I recently acquired a decent 1917 Eddystone, bore slugs .309 plus a tad,
excellent lands ( deep engraving)

So far the best grouping I've managed to get was by using 311466 w/ 16.5 grs Universal (not Universal Clays),
2 1/2" @ 100 yds with Battle sights.

However my goal is to use the 311467 , cast from an old Lyman Ideal mould.

The top two bands measure .302 on average, the base .314, Lyman #2 alloy .

I full lenght resize, use a lyman M die w/ a .312 expander, necks flaired .

Cases are Match and LC 42

Bullet sized 310 seated to lands

I do not have nor can get 4895 or 2400.

I have 748,H335, Blue Dot, 3031 , 4198, Universal, 2520,Tailk Boss,231,296, 4759

Using about 14 grs of Universal and Remington primers I have managed to get three shots just about touching
w / a 2" flier left and a 2" flier right obviously blowing the group, again @ 100 yds.

A quick note here I was experincing vertical stringing until I raised the muzzle, thanks for that reminder.

Any help would be apreciated ( I know its an old subject) .

Thanks Dan

[Ben]

Dan,

Here are my thoughts, someone else may see your situation differently ?

I'd go to SR 4759 and start with 16.5 grs. and stop at 18.5 grs. Load 5 rounds with 16.5, 5 rounds with 17.0 grs. , load 5 rounds with 17.5grs. , etc, etc., until you hit 18.5 grs.

You should get some favorable results in there somewhere.

I would also strongly consider a .311 sizing die.
If your bore is .309 and you're sizing .310 that might just be part of your problem. If your bore is .309 " + and you are sizing .310 you might not be filling the throat of your barrel ?

Using a .312 " expander and sizing your cast bullets to .310 with a .309 + bore sounds like a poor combination of " numbers " that combined may be a detriment to accuracy ? That doesn't sound like it is going to provide you with adequate neck tension on your cast bullet. I'd think that a .309" expander with a .311" cast bullet might work out much better for you.

A lot of military rifles won't break the 2" group mark at 100 yards however. An AWFUL LOT of shooters can't take open metallic sights on an accurate military rifle and break 2 " with a 5 shot group at 100 yds.

You don't mention a lot of other variables, the cast bullet lube you're using, , whether or not you removed all traces of copper fouling from your barrel before you started shooting cast bullets, the specific alloy you are casting with, etc., etc.

Do you seat your cast bullets " out " so that when you chamber a round that you see engraving marks ( made by your rifling ) on the cast bullet ?

There are an awful lot of variables to be considered here in your quest for accuracy.

Ben

[guicksylver]

Ben Thanks for the reply.

Excellent questions.
Hope my answers are as good.

The lube is Lyman Alox ( love the smell)

I do engrave the bullets ( I'm in the office so I can't give you the AOL)
but they are out there so the bolt closes with resistance.

I do have a 311 die and am going to try that this weekend.

The first thing I did was give it a good scrub to make sure all copper was out.

The alloy is Moussouri Bullet alloy #2

All bullits are checked at casting, sizing and when I segregate to .1 grains no + or -, and at seating

Your comment about the neck sizing die is intersesting.

Because the Mil brass is so thick I used the 312 and I thought the neck would "resize" the bullet when seating.

I aonly crimp enough to take out the neck flair

Here's a story for you, when I was developing loads for my 1917 Win 94 30-30 w/ 26" barrel I stumbled across a load that would give me .75 -1.25" groups @ 100.
unsized cases 20 grs RX7, 311 407 sized 309, seated on the third ring, just enough crimp to keep the bullet from falling out or getting pushed in.

As for your suggested loads, thank you for confirming what I was going to load tonite.

I will go back to basic, sans my ideas, use yours and let you know what happens. Thanks again.

[nanuk]

just wondering, does an unsized boolit fit into a fired case with little resistance?

I think Ben is steering you right.

how hard is Moussouri #2?

[guicksylver]

Nanuk

Moussouri Alloy is what they call Modern Lyman #2, same as the old Lyman # 2

I'm not sure whether you are refering to the 30-30 or 30-06.

But I can tell you that the 30-30 fits with little to no resistance.

I'll check on the 30-06.

the efect I image is the equalivent of what SS shooters do laod bullet then case.

[Ben]

I personally " aim for " ( excuse the pun ), moderate neck tension.

I don't want to pull a cast bullet and find that the neck tension further sized the bullet during the seating process. If that is happening, I've got way too much neck tension.

At the same time, I'm not a fan of cast bullets that can be " thumb seated " into a case neck. It is my opinion that more neck tension is needed than that. Correct neck tension contributes to consistent ignition of powders.

As to using my ideas.....UUmmmm ? That may get you closer to some good groups and could just as easy take you in the other direction.

Some of this is chemistry, some is physics, some alchemy, some VooDoo, some is just plain old poker luck..........

A patient & persistent man definitely has the edge in this " game ".

Ben

[guicksylver]

Ben you are so right.

The 2 1/2" group I got with the 31466 was "just" some I loaded up.

Wish they could ll start off that way.

No where on the threads did I see anyone mention an expanding die size.

So I'm assuming they are using .309

I'll be carefull to load some with "one" change only.

[runfiverun]

I would go to the larger size first and see how things change then swap the powder.
h-335 is just a tick slower than 4895 you can use it also and treat it the same.
use the same data and such.
a Dacron filler would be a good idea.

the shots off to the side and you having to lift the muzzle to fix it are symptoms of ignition inconsistency with the load you are using now.

[Larry Gibson]

Here's my thoughts;

Alloy is good

Lube is good

I would use NS fire formed cases. If you don't have a NS die then consider a bushing die or a Lee collet die so necks are sized to give .002 - .003" neck tension.

With 4759 start with 18 gr, use a 3/4 gr dacron filler, work up in 1/2 gr to 23 - 24 gr.

With 3031 start at 26 gr and work up to 30 gr with the same dacron filler.

Size bullet at .311 and make sure GC si seated fully and squarely on shank.

Seat bullet to lands with GC still in case neck.

That bullet should shoot very well as above with either of those powders and the dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[mikeym1a]

At least you have your gun to shoot. About 8 years ago, I bought a 1917 drill 'rifle. Didn't cost much. No papers. Great deal, right?? no. when I got it home and broke it down, it had a stub barrel, but did have the receiver and trigger group, no bolt. So I put it away with thought that 'one day' i'd run down the parts. Last year I did. Got a complete bolt and short barrel from Numrich. 'So!' , says I, 'I'll just put me a gun together!'. I can't find that blasted thing, any where. And it's not a big house! Hope you find the formula for your 1917. Hope I find mine......

[guicksylver]

Hey guys thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'm definetly going to try the suggested loads.

I.ve sized a bunch 311 and checked my OAL so it engraves.

Now Mike for you I have a neck sizing die and can't find it, so I guess I'll be ordering a new one.
It should come about the time my powders run out.

My lost gun story, a hundred or so years ago when my nephew was born my sister inlaw said she didn't want my nephew to grow up around guns so I squirled them around to friends houses. My luck held and he became interested anyways. So one day she came over and said you might as well get them back. I thought gee thanks great I'll go get the two or three that I remembered, well once my friends stoped bringing them over and I got a chance to count them, there were 17 :).

Project and plans are just things that seem to never happen.

I keep telling myself this is only a hoby, but darn ,things are supposed to go the way I want if it's my hoby, RIGHT!

[guicksylver]

Larry you are right on, my last Smith Corona 03a3 shot 1 1/4 "@100 on demand with my 311407 sized 309 20/2400 htis 311467 should do the same.

I thought 2520 was the ball powder = of 4895?

[johntkd]

the p-17 enfield eddystone was a mass produced WW1 rifle, there were many many variations and makers as well uncluding remington,and firestone to name a few, the rifle itself is ok if its still original it cocks on closing and the safety system requires a lot of thinking to raise the bold enough to flip the lock pin down to keep bolt from closing, the "battle sites" are generally sloppy at best and allow for quite a bit of windage and elevation variations, the enfields of this type i have worked with are not an accurate bunch with the factory barrels, even scope equipped they shoot what I consider to be large groups for a 30-06 caliber especially over 150 yards. sounds to me like you may have one of the good ones. one of the eddystones I had years ago shot 180 gr round nose factory remingtons really well but nothing else. I personally would try your 2" 3 shot grouper again only allow 1 to 2 mins between each shot remember these weapons were extremely mass produced quality was not the issue then as it was more quantity trying to get the UK weapons. most of the eddystones you see here were just never shipped

[Wayne Smith]

John, by definition a P-17 Enfield Eddystone was made at Remington's Eddystone plant. Otherwise it wouldn't be an Eddystone. It was made by Remington, who had many years of experience making military rifles. By that time they had armed the Spanish army, armed the Egyptian army, armed the Turkish army, and had armed the Russian army! They had established accuracy standards, the Russians had established their own accuracy standards and had inspectors in the Remington (and Smith and Wesson) plants. Remington knew well how to mass produce accurate rifles.

[johntkd]

Normally I would agree with you However there were over 25 makers of the p-17 enfield and many ARE marked Remington what does that mean? the ones Marked Remington were manufactured by Remington, the ones marked eddystone were assembled at the eddystone Plant with parts made all over, thats the biggest difference and although its been a few years since i have really messed with the p-17 or followed them in any way the eddystones were the least valuble of the entire bunch and its because of the fact different companies had over runs of parts , parts thay may have had slight non structural mistakes etc they shoipped them all to one place and assembled the gun, if you tear one down the mag may be stamped smith corona, the bolt may have a firestone number on it,the barrel could have been from kodak etc, but you are correct they were assembled and tested at eddystone

[Mk42gunner]

25 makers of the U.S. rifle Model of 1917? Really? ALL the literature I have seen over the years says there were three: Eddystone, Remington and Winchester.

Who are the other twenty two manufacturers?

Robert

[johntkd]

hmmm really? I think your confusing stamps with manufacturers, on Wayne smiths post he claims the eddystone is a remington hmmmm kind of disproves what you think you know about the rifle already dont it? almost any large manufacturer was building those rifles, if they had a factory they were producing rifles just as in WW2 thats where the money was..

I will have to dig up all my info on it which wont be all that quick or easy as most of it is in boxes I have not dealt with enfields in about 14 years...

[MtGun44]

One more vote for .311.

Remington had two factories, one in Ilion, NY and one in Eddystone, PA.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Quicksylver..

I have had very good luck with 311467, 311466 and 311407 Mod, in the various 30-06 rifles that live at my house. I have a good Winchester 70 (1954 vintage) plus an assortments of 03s, 03A3s, Garand and 1917s. One of my 1917s is an original Winchester and the other is a Remington with a WWI rebuilt using a Johnson Automatics barrel. The rebuild was done at San Antonio Arsenal.

I have three different Lyman 311467 molds and the specs are all over the map. On all of them the top few bands for a taper to fill various rifle throats. In an unworn rifle, this caused me to have to deep seat the bullets. I fixed this by sizing the top three bands down to .301 and this let them ride on top of the lands. Accuracy took a big jump when I did this.

I have had good results with 4759 powder. I used 22 grains under 311467 and that will knock a 200 meter steel ram for a loop with no problems even with a marginal hit.

We have almost gone to war on this board over the issue of neck tension and neck expanders. I use an expander that measure the same as the bullet I want to use or up to .001 smaller. After the expander is removed from the neck there is some spring back, This will vary on the hardness of the brass, thickness of the neck and other factors, but .001 springback is a good number to use.

For 03, 03A3 and 1917s, a bullet size of .310 or .311 will get the job done, unless the rifle is way out of spec. Some of the original 1917s barrels were a little on the loose side, but the Johnson barrels are all pretty strict .308 or a hair over. IIRC Johnson was the only contractor for barrels used in 1917 rebuilds.

You have a great rifle and a great bullet to play with. Best of luck to you..

[Char-Gar]

At the time, Remington also owned Baldwin Locomotive Works (Eddystone, PA) and set up the new rifle making shop to fulfill the govt. contract in a building at Baldwin in Eddystone.

[guicksylver]

Boy I have gotten more information than I could have hoped for!

All GOOD! Thanks.

About 8 years ago I walked into to a local gun shop and much to my amazement there was a Winchester 1917
in all its glory, unfired, unmolested.

Only thing wrong was it had a Remington bolt (in the same condition)

Asking price was $150.00, did I buy it You Bet !

Got it home checked it out along with the serial number, 1st week production!

got all excited loaded up my best rounds took it to the pit,could not hit the banking from 100 yds.
tried 75, could see the boolit hit, went to 50 got some dust about 8 feet from the AP.

Took the darn thing home slugged the barrel, up a P-14 barrel chambered for 30-06, explained everything,
condition and the Remington bolt.

[mpmarty]

Had a P-17 Eddystone in 06 and had it rechambered to 300 winchester maggy. That rifle was a tack driver. Wish I still had it. The P-14 was an even better rifle for rebarrelling and conversion to magnum rounds as it had a larger bolt face and the receiver rails were a bit more generous.

Both the P14 and P17 were made with nickle steel and could really take the pressures.

[guicksylver]

All is well guys I took your suggestions ,neck sized, 311 boolits
311467, 311466 and 311299 all great, groups cut almost in half.
Looking for the sweet spot!
Some holes touching @100

You folks are the best,just had to get back to basics.

Still too much neck tension for me.

Used a Lyman 31R expanding plug , mine mikes 309
should it not be 310?

[guicksylver]

No question about it, I'm looking for a Smith Corona 03a3.
Got a couple of extras you could part with?

[guicksylver]

Hey guys all is well in the 1917 world neck sized some cases.
Followed your advice, cut group almost in half..
Looks etremely promising with all thre 467,466 and 299.
Even better news 467 looks like I'll be at around 1 1/2" with two loads,
13.5 universal and one higher w/ 4759 Oh Boy now its the search for the sweet spot!

more later Thanks again!

[guicksylver]

Sorry about the dups my lap top is going south!

[guicksylver]

You have given me alot but I do have another question.
Best Neck sizing Die?

[Char-Gar]

You did ask for "best" didn't you? The ultimate neck sizing die is either the Wilson hand type or Redding press type that use removable bushings. With the proper bushing, you only size enough to have proper tension on the bullet and don't have to expand the case necks. Wilson and Redding bushings are interchangeable. These bushing dies avoids the size down and expand back up over working of the brass. But if you go this route it is time to start thinking about neck turning the brass for uniform thickness.

With traditional neck sizing dies, It doesn't make much of a difference. I have both a Redding and Lee Collet dies. I tend to use the Redding as the Lee is a bit more complex to set up. I have managed to break two of them through improper set up. I am a clumsy sort. But when set up properly they work just fine.

If you can get your 1917 to deliver repeatable, on demand, 10 shot groups of 1.5" at 100 yards, you have ascended into the highest heavens of cast bullet shooting. If these groups are not 10 shot, repeatable on demand, keep working. :-)

BTW..As you know the 1917 rear sight is adjustable for elevation but not windage. There is a guy who makes and sells on Ebay a tool to move the front sight right and left for windage with opposing screws through the front sight ears. The 1917 uses front sights that are the same as the Enfield No. 1 which come in 7 different heights and are available through Springfield Sporters for very little money.

[Char-Gar]

Quicksylver... Here is my Smith-Corona 03A3, albeit done up with a new stock etc, to mimic the pre-war Springfield NRA Sporter. It will take you to cast bullet heaven, it is that good.

72460

[mroliver77]

Good heavens! I got tired of being beat up on for stating this! I was looking for .002 of interference tween boolit and case. Approximately .002 of springback in most cases .30 cal. Made sense to me to use an expander the same size as my boolit. Heck, I probably learned it from Char Gar ;)

I have two 1917s. One is a American Legion turn in that was bought at CMP North. The other a parts gun. After a week of cleaning the Legion gun has beautiful barrel! They both love the Lyman 311284. Both guns shoot very well. The rear site was off so I made a small cover for it with the "smaller" aperture in the right place to regulate the aim. I need to look at ebay for the tool.
Jay


Quicksylver..


We have almost gone to war on this board over the issue of neck tension and neck expanders. I use an expander that measure the same as the bullet I want to use or up to .001 smaller. After the expander is removed from the neck there is some spring back, This will vary on the hardness of the brass, thickness of the neck and other factors, but .001 springback is a good number to use.


You have a great rifle and a great bullet to play with. Best of luck to you..

[Mk42gunner]

...BTW..As you know the 1917 rear sight is adjustable for elevation but not windage. There is a guy who makes and sells on Ebay a tool to move the front sight right and left for windage with opposing screws through the front sight ears. The 1917 uses front sights that are the same as the Enfield No. 1 which come in 7 different heights and are available through Springfield Sporters for very little money.

Thanks, I'll have to remember this for when I get another 1917 with issued sights, my current one had the barrel bobbed al the way to 24" before I purchased it.

I knew about adjusting the sights, but did not know the front was the same as the Enfield No. 1, it makes sense though; the Ganddaddy of the M1917 is the Pattern 13 Enfield.

Robert

[guicksylver]

just can't seem to get my repies to show up.
But he is the short story , I neck sized some cases and found a vast inprovent.
Looking for the sweet spot.
Thank you all for your help.
I'll post results ASAP.

[guicksylver]

WoW nice piece.
I'mm suprized that the front band doesn't do something weird with the accuracy.

[guicksylver]

I'm planning on getting a second elevator and tapping it for the use of different apertures

[Char-Gar]

Front band does not touch the barrel. It bears on the wood.

[guicksylver]

That explais that, tanks.

A friend of mine had one made up like that with a 2 grove .
He tried cast boollits but just hasn't got the patience or desire to follow through, he has been "spoiled " by the ease
and accuracy of shooting the .223

One of the post I had didn't get through.
It concerned two items one a Hornady rep sstated that they found that .002 tension was too much.
The second delt with the difference betwen Loverin style boolits and ones with larger driving bands.
It seems that the Loverin type likes shot( min of caliber) and lighter neck tension where as the boolits with larger driving band tolerate more tension.
Any thoughts here.



Anealing the case neck ,good idea or no

[Char-Gar]

That explais that, tanks.

A friend of mine had one made up like that with a 2 grove .
He tried cast boollits but just hasn't got the patience or desire to follow through, he has been "spoiled " by the ease
and accuracy of shooting the .223

One of the post I had didn't get through.
It concerned two items one a Hornady rep sstated that they found that .002 tension was too much.
The second delt with the difference betwen Loverin style boolits and ones with larger driving bands.
It seems that the Loverin type likes shot( min of caliber) and lighter neck tension where as the boolits with larger driving band tolerate more tension.
Any thoughts here.



Anealing the case neck ,good idea or no

I have never tried to find out how much neck tension it would take to distort a bullet, but I do know that .001 to .002 won't hurt a Loverin bullet when cast of ACWW or harder alloy.

I only anneal cases when I reform them into another caliber or try and rehab very old brass I have picked up. I don't do it on a regular basis. I don't know if it hurts anything, I just have not found it to be necessary, just an extra step I don't need.

When it comes to reloading, I am not a very curious fellow. I don't go looking for answer to questions I did not ask. Other parts of life, yes, but reloading no. Once I learn what works, that is where my search ends. I am a shooter not a fellow on a quest for knowledge. When my rifles perform up to their ability, I am happy.

A rifle should be able to deliver accuracy with cast bullets full equal or better than it can with best jacketed loads. When I get to that point, I just enjoy pulling the trigger and seeing the results.

I got into reloading in 1958 so I could shoot as much as I wanted. That motivation has not changed over the years. Along the way, I have learned quite a bit about getting to where I want to go. But wanting to know for the sake of knowing? Nope..that isn't me.

[guicksylver]

Char-Gar
I hear what you're saying.
I didn't start that early may be '64
There was so much ammo out there it wasn't necessary.
I bought 2500 rounds of m1 carbine for $25.00, 30-06 wasn't much more.
That's my segway to the reason why I asked about annealing, I noticed that alot if not all military brass had been annealed.
Most of what I learned was not so much through trial and error as stumbling across some thing good.
There is a certain sense of perevres pleasure in shooting along side some one with a tricked out AR, douglas barrel, 36x scope, tuned trigger ,
match grade bullets and my win 94 turning in the same groups with cast boolits.

I was just stumped with the 1917 I knew it should do better than it was.
Some times I get blinded when trying to figure things out, I'm not organized at all in my thinking.

One more comment, these days unlike the golden days working up loads can be frustrating in the sense that one can no long just run out to the local sporting good store and buy a pound or two of different powders or for that matter order a couple of different size bushings.

Working with whats on hand adds another layer to the challenge.

Once again I thank you all for your suggestions, I'm really glad I posted the thread.

[Char-Gar]

All factory brass and ammo has been annealed. The commercial stuff has been tumbled after to remove the discoloration. The GI stuff doesn't worry about cosmetics.

[johntkd]

I cannot say I am an expert with the springfields by any means BUT every one of the things i have ever fired are tack drivers, first one i ever bought was a model 03 serial numbered in the 90 thousands chambered In 30/06 which used to drive me nuts because the gun was built 3 years before the caliber patent lol anyways as most know these have weaker than standard recievers so i used to use a handloaded 180 bullet for hunting,my dad had an old o3a3 and again a tack driver with factory loads,ball ammo loads and handloads, then a few others i have sighted in for friends same thing.I know i will never get the deal again I got on my first one the model 03 and a p-17 eddystone both rifles 50 bucks ( 25 each)

[guicksylver]

John I remenber does days.
I bought 10 arsenal refinished ,unissued 1903a3 Smiths
in the box for each $35.00.
The crazy part was the guy would show up at your door every so often with treasures like these,
Colts & Winchesters from Mexico.
1917 Winchesters same condition $50.00.
I supplied some correction institutes with updated firearms,
one I did I got around 30 Winchester 92s and riot shot guns, yes the ones with the hand guards and ordnace stamps
and gave them between $18.-$20. trade in allowance ea.
I made a bundle when I sold them for $85.00

Back to the discussion, I too found all of them to be excellent shooters , with my better eyes I could turn in 1 1/2" groups with my 311407 @100
Even with the 03 sights.

[guicksylver]

That's why I was baffled with the 1917.

[Char-Gar]

There are still some of us old guys around who remember the gun situation in the 50's and early 60's when firearms that are high dollar classics today were within the reach of any kid with a paper route or lawn mower. They were just "cheap old guns", in those days. I just wish, I would have enough sense to hang on to the ones I had.

The most I ever paid was $300.00 to a widow lady for his dead husbands pre-war Woodward (British) over and under 12 gage cased with a set of spare barrels. I sold it a year later for $1,000.00 and thought the world had turned into money. Today it would be worth well over 1/4 million bucks.

[guicksylver]

Char-gar..... or my minty Johnson I took in trade for a chiefs special (used)
My BAR $350.00

[guicksylver]

At least we had the orportunity.

[guicksylver]

To put a different spin on it .
Calculate how many hours it took to purchase one then, do the same with todays hourly wage.
Some are the same, some would have been great investments.

[johntkd]

lol I heard about those types of cheap buys But i bought my first 03 in the 90s for 25 bucks guy sold me the 03 and the p17 had to take both for 50 bucks he wouldnt split them up lol like I said a once in a lifetime buy

[guicksylver]

I think that borders on criminal.