Cold bore accuracy ?

[Jack Stanley]

With some of the loads I've been fooling with in my .223 Remington , I notice the first shot from a cold bore is sometimes out of the main group . When I'm loading 2400 it doesn't seem to be to bad , with light Bullseye loads though I can almost bet on the first shot being out . I haven't been loading Unigue long enough to notice this and the Unique loads are close in velocity with the 2400 loads .

So the question is are light loads more likely to be out with the first shot ? Is lube a factor here do ya think ?

I've been experimenting with both sized and unsized with the light loads . Overall , the unsized don't seem to throw the first one out as far as bullets sized to .225" .

Thanks for any insight , Jack

[btroj]

Load, velocity, bullet weight, lube, and temp are some of the various factors that can affect first shot accuracy.

My 45-70 doesn't seem to be affected by any of these, my 32-20 is affected by all of them.

In the end, it depends.

[Jack Stanley]

I find the Savage 110 is more sensitive to this than the Stevens 200 is and the Remington 788 is less so than the other two . So perhaps there is good results to be found in this mess .

Jack

[Bagdadjoe]

First shot on an unfouled barrel or fouled? Try not cleaning it, then see if the first shot is out when cold. It's pretty normal that the first shot from a clean bore will be out.

[starmac]

I have always wondered about this. How far out are we talking about?

I am not a target shooter, but have always heard target guys talking about this, are we talking about a first shot out far enough to not be a hunting rifle?

[nanuk]

is the first shot ALWAYS out the same place?

from cold and clean?
or cold and fouled?

[grampa243]

first shot clean or fouled?

also is the barrel free floated or not?

i had a gun once that changed Point Of Aim 4 MOA from cold to warm. to use this gun for groundhogs i had to site it in cold one shot at a time then wait for to it cool again. then more then two shots hunting and i would miss till it was cold again. this was with J-words.

[waksupi]

Do some searching, Lamar (Run5Run) had a topic on this some time ago, with some interesting comments and results.

[Jack Stanley]

As for barrel condition , I have tried both fouled and clean . In both the Savage and the Stevens the first shot is left "somewhere" . It might be high middle or low but I seem to remember it's always left and the Savage is the worst in this respect . The Stevens is normally out a bit high and to the left but not so far out of the group it wouldn't be ok for hunting . Depending on the load being fired distances are from thirty to a hundred yards . Other than the model differences of the 110 and the 200 , the Savage 110 has a one in fourteen twist I believe and the Stevens 200 has a faster twist . Since I'm using fifty-five grain bullets I wonder if this is part of the problem .

Both rifles are bedded and I know the Stevens is floated but I don't remember about the Savage but I think it is as well . The Remington 788 I don't think I can fairly compare to these two but since I've fired it at the same close ranges as the others , I'd say it acts a lot like the Stevens . It will keep all it's shots on an inch and a half bullseye at thirty yards unless a bad bullet escaped inspection . I can't help but wonder if bore condition has something to do with this because jacketed bullets in the Savage work just fine . That's kind of why I was wondering if lube made a lot of difference when using cast .

So the mission here is to try and fix the Savage 110 so it will shoot like the Stevens does with cast . For no other reason than the Savage is a left hand rifle and I prefer to shoot from the left side . It might be interesting to take the Axis out with the same ammo I've been using in the other two . Since it's a lefty also I'd be just tickled if it shot just the way I want it to .

Perhaps this evening I'll search R5Rs posts Do ya remember the title ?

Thanks , Jack

[btroj]

First shot cold barrel flyers are the very reason for the "quest" thread in the bullet lube section.

[45 2.1]

Lube has a great deal to do with this subject.............

[btroj]

Lube has a great deal to do with this subject.............

Understatement of the year.

Lube has almost everything to do with it.

[40-82]

Interesting topic. I always felt that I shot better groups after I warmed up a little. Even if this is probably true, more of the difference than I might want to admit could be a combination of a cold bore and the lube. It's pleasant to recall very good groups from a warm summer day, but what counts is a rifle and load combination that can perform on demand on a cold morning deep in the hunting season from a barrel that may not have been fired in a month.

In the off-seasons I find myself leaving steel gongs at various places on the farm. When I have a break in my work, I take one shot at a gong. I need to know what I can expect from a cold bore.

[badgeredd]

With some of the loads I've been fooling with in my .223 Remington , I notice the first shot from a cold bore is sometimes out of the main group . When I'm loading 2400 it doesn't seem to be to bad , with light Bullseye loads though I can almost bet on the first shot being out . I haven't been loading Unigue long enough to notice this and the Unique loads are close in velocity with the 2400 loads .

So the question is are light loads more likely to be out with the first shot ? Is lube a factor here do ya think ?

I've been experimenting with both sized and unsized with the light loads . Overall , the unsized don't seem to throw the first one out as far as bullets sized to .225" .

Thanks for any insight , Jack

Jack,

Yes, lube can definitely be a factor. Since you live in the same general area as I do, I'd suggest you try 357maximum's MML. Matter of fact, PM him for a little to test as he has a couple versions. Another lube that works well in our area is Speed Green or a slight variation of it. I've used a synthetic 2-cycle oil in place of Bullplate with good results. Another thought on lube, 45-45-10 or LLA work well at reduced velocities for me.

Another thing appears to be the size of your boolit since you say unsized have less tendency to throw a cold barrel flyer. Maybe "beagle" so you size (or shoot as cast) at least a .226 diameter. My experience with mild loads in the small calibers has shown me that a air cooled alloy sized slight large gives me the best accuracy...6mm TCU, .223. 221 Fireball, .218 Mashburn Bee, and 22 Super Jet are some of my little guys I play with. For reduced velocity loads I use 33% wheel weighs/66% pure lead alloy air cooled.

Powder may be a factor but I am thinking not likely because of your posted thoughts.

Good luck,

Edd

P.S. One last thought, I try to find a powder that leaves minimal fouling of un-burned powder also. The powders you mentioned usually fit into that niche.

[Jack Stanley]

First shot cold barrel flyers are the very reason for the "quest" thread in the bullet lube section.

btrog , I went over and read the first three pages of that thread and WOW!!:shock:You guys are so far above my little operation I look like a caveman !!

Ed , I'm going to take your advice to heart and when I go back to using gas checks I think I'll work with Unique some more . The bullet I have in mind is a RCBS 22-55-FN and I'll be happy with hunting accuracy at twenty-one hundred feet per second . Since I chronographed my Unique load and it's within fifty feet per second of the 2400 load , all I need to do is look at hunting accuracy .

My current training wheels is a leftover batch of Lyman 225415 without gas checks and unsized . The mold is gone so I won't be making any more of them and when they are gone ( another six hundred or so ) I'll start work with a 224462 .

The lube I have been working with on these unsized 225415 bullets is liquid Alox and Johnsons paste wax . Not the real mix other guys use , I estimate the amount to about a fifty/fifty mix and let it dry . I think I'll continue working on this low velocity load , so far without using a gas check I haven't got any leading three different rifles . Accuracy in them has been OK to pretty good for the amount of work involved . Two of the rifles have good enough accuracy for hunting woodchucks to about fifty yards . Smaller critters closer would be OK to I think . The Savage 110 is the worst shooting these cold bore and does pretty well once warmed up .

I tried another rifle yesterday with the low velocity loads from a cold clean bore . Rifle is a Savage Axis ( a lefty ) and at thirty yards the first four shot group was better than the Stevens 200 rifle . Perhaps I am closer to what I want after all when I get done here I think I'll go see how it works from a cold fouled bore . It would be just sooooo nice if I could get squirrel blasting accuracy from these low velocity loads with the lubes I have on hand . I really dislike the idea of having to clean out a lubesizer so either LBT , Javalina or this Jeykl/Hyde mix of liquid alox/JPW would be great . But if I need to switch lubes I think I'll have to plan on making one huge pile of bullets .

Depending on how the work for the RCBS FN type bullet works out I may need to try a Lube like you suggest . I would like to have one of these rifles dedicated to using up the pile of lead I have ... of course it does have to share with several larger bore rifles . It just seems like having only two different loads for the .223 Remington case would be easier all the way around .

Guys , thanks for your input , I'll have to read the quest thread part time and see if I can get anything out of that . R5R , What was the title of your thread for your .223 work ? I went snooping but didn't find it , thanks .

Jack

[waksupi]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?167406-first-shot&highlight=group

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks waksupi Now after reading that I'm thinking that not only does lube make a big difference on the first shot , fit probably does too . My 788 probably has more rounds down the barrel than the other three rifles I'm testing combined . The groups weren't the tightest but they were always rounded and always on the bull .

The Savage 110 has some real preferences and even though it shoots OK when it's warm with these light loads , it's an off to the left shooter when cold . Today I took this one out with some leftover loads with 2400 , the RCBS 22-55-SP bullet and WSPM primers . These have been clocked at over twenty-one hundred and shot several excellent groups . But then , this rifle has a slower twist so I think it would tend to like speed .

The Stevens looks like it would make a decent hunting rifle because the first shot really isn't to far out from the rest . It has a fast twist barrel on it and the tupperware stock has been steel bedded so it doesn't flex the action . I've put more than a thousand rounds of cast alone through this one .

Today though the star of the show was the Axis , the first four shots were all touching at thirty yards . This was using the light Bullseye powered loads that I've been trying to get the other rifles to like . I prepped some cases today and will get more ammo loaded soon to see it it was just a fluke . I did fire five or six groups and though they didn't look as nice as the first all groups were better than what the Stevens rifle has done by about a third or more . I squandered the rest of my ammo knocking over steel targets at forty yards with it and had a blast . This rifle I got new and it has lest than three hundred jacketed bullets through it so perhaps it is the least worn of all of them .

I am hoping I don't have to get yet another lube . Someone looking in my lube storage box would think I had a collection going ............ But ya know a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do .

Jack