Value on a Magma bullet master 2400 MK 5 ?

[BD]

Anyone know what one of these is worth? I know where one is that looks in good shape, although it's been sitting awhile. No idea what molds are in it.
BD

[Vinne]

No idea...but I'd love to have one!!!

[Brenden]

New ones run 11,000 although they have made many upgrades since that left Magma. Mold sets run about 800, judging from the looks of that I would inspect molds for signs of pitting. On the secondary market, if it runs out I would think value to be in the 4000 to 4500 range and molds at 250 to 300 a set. If you pass I might be interested.

[RoGrrr]

There were 3 on ebay last summer. They came out of an estate and the auction company that did them cut all the control wiring for removal from the shop so they all needed to be completely rewired. The first one (best of the batch) sold for over $2500, the second (middle overall quality) about $1900, if memory serves. I bought the third one for $1100 (the MUTT of the liter, so to speak. This one was built in the 70s so I have no idea how many boolits it turned out, but based on the looks of it, PLENTY !). I also bought some moulds with it.
Also, I didn't want to have it shipped so I drove about 350 miles to pick it up. In the face to face transaction, I ended up with a few other trinkets thrown in I wouldn't have gotten if he had shipped it.
It had screwed up wiring so I simply gutted it and am rewiring everything. I disliked all his controls so I'm going with SSRs, electronic timers for lead pour and PIDs to control everything.
It was such a mess that I simply removed the motor and took it to the car wash and washed all the grime, crep and grease off with the pressure washer. Then I completely disassembled it and repaired some of the mechanics and completely re-lubed it. The base of the furnace was 3/16" asbestos which was broken. I replaced that with a piece of aluminum machined to fit inside the shroud. I also had to add some fiberglass insulation.
When I re-assembled the machine I had to make quite a few adjustments and machine some of the mould carriers on my milling machine to get the mould blocks to close completely. There is supposed to be some play/slop in the mould carriers to allow the halves to completely mate. For some reason, mine didn't have that slop.
I spoke with the people at MAGMA several times to get a feel for what I needed to do before I figured out how far screwed up this thing was. I have the mechanics pretty close to properly set up now and am working on the electronic controls for it.
The newer ones have a 2 chamber furnace that melts the lead in the first chamber and feeds it into the secondary chamber. This way, as the primary chamber runs low, you can add/pre-melt and not adversely affect the temperature of the lead that is ready to go into the moulds. Mine only has one chamber so I'm going to control the pour valve with a PID so when I have to add lead, if the temp goes too low, the pour valve will be inhibited until the temp rises to acceptable temperature. The rest of the machine will still be running. What I'll have to watch out for is mould temperature going too cold and frosted boolits or moulds not completely filling until they reheat.
A new furnace for the BM is in the neighborhood of $500 and the heating elements are not available from MAGMA. However, they said I could google for "bendable" heating elements and make my own if these burn out. If that happens I'll prolly weld in a baffle and convert mine into a twin chamber pot.
As Brenden mentioned, the new ones are about $11K but I'll have around $2000 in this one including moulds and controls.

[BD]

Thanks for the replies. If I pick this up it would be to re-sell. I'll post it here if I get it.
BD

[daniel lawecki]

I,d low ball not more than a grand

[RoGrrr]

Thanks for the replies. If I pick this up it would be to re-sell. I'll post it here if I get it.
BD


Spoken like a true capitalist ! Then you can make a donation to/join the board.
I wish you well.

[Uptickk]

I think those use a Dayton motor to rotate the wheel. Would you mind sharing more specifically what kind of motor it is (a/c or d/c, hp, etc.)?

[Uptickk]

The newer ones have a 2 chamber furnace that melts the lead in the first chamber and feeds it into the secondary chamber. This way, as the primary chamber runs low, you can add/pre-melt and not adversely affect the temperature of the lead that is ready to go into the moulds. Mine only has one chamber so I'm going to control the pour valve with a PID so when I have to add lead, if the temp goes too low, the pour valve will be inhibited until the temp rises to acceptable temperature. The rest of the machine will still be running. What I'll have to watch out for is mould temperature going too cold and frosted boolits or moulds not completely filling until they reheat.
A new furnace for the BM is in the neighborhood of $500 and the heating elements are not available from MAGMA. However, they said I could google for "bendable" heating elements and make my own if these burn out. If that happens I'll prolly weld in a baffle and convert mine into a twin chamber pot.

Would you mind explaining how the two chamber system works? I have a single chamber systems and would like to make or buy a larger two chamber system for the reasons you outlined in your post.

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
From what I can tell, the 2 chamber furnace has undergone some modifications over the years. My furnace has some welds inside it and now that I'm thinking about it, I'd say that mine had a baffle in it so the pot gave the appearance/function of a 2-chamber pot. As lead in the one side melted, it ran past the loose fitting baffle to fill both chambers. As the "pour" chamber drained, melt from the "melt" side ran into the pour side. When you put in ingots, the temperature of the melt side will drop some but that of the pour side stayed relatively even.
From pictures of the newer models, it looks like there was a valve in the partition that kept the melt side full (and hot) until the pour side "called for more melt". The valve opens to fed the pour side.
But I could be wrong on this. I'm not really worried about it yet.
The furnace is about 100 pound capacity so as long as you keep it at least half full and don't put another 50 Lbs of ingots in it at once, your temperature swing shouldn't be that great that you'd need a 2 chamber furnace.

The motor is a 1/3 hp Dayton gear motor that turns about 20 RPM. That particular motor assy is now discontinued but there are others that will replace it.

[ReloaderFred]

The premelt and pour sides of the pot are separated by a steel divider, and there is a float arrangement on the pour side that regulates the level on that side. This is to keep the pour pressure the same throughout the casting session, and to regulate the temperature on both sides of the pot.

The temperature on the pour side varies little, but the premelt side varies a lot, depending on how much sprue and ingots are added at a time. This is a nice feature, since the pour side remains at a constant temperature, no matter what is going on in the premelt pot.

The other day, I got busy and didn't notice the premelt side was way down, so I added enough sprue and ingots to fill it up, which lowered the temperature on that side to approximately 500 degrees F, while the pour side remained at 700 degrees F and the lead kept flowing to the molds.

Having both the premelt and pour sides to the pot was a good idea. My machine is a Mark 6, and I think it's had some upgrades somewhere in it's previous life.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[RoGrrr]

Fred
Would you be so kind as to take some close up pics to show me how the float mechanism works ? I think I know how but I'd like to see anyway.
Roger


The premelt and pour sides of the pot are separated by a steel divider, and there is a float arrangement on the pour side that regulates the level on that side.
<SNIP>

Having both the premelt and pour sides to the pot was a good idea. My machine is a Mark 6,
<SNIP>

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

Roger,

It will be next week, since I'm leaving tomorrow for a match in the central part of the state. Our machine is set up about half an hour from my house (no room here for it), so the next time I go up there to cast, I'll take some pictures for you.

The float just looks like a square metal block hooked up to a pivot arm. Just about anything floats on lead, so I'm guessing it's probably steel. I haven't let the lead level get down enough to see where the hole between the two sides of the pot is, or how the stopper works. When we turn off the pot, the two sides of it tend to level out some before the alloy gets hard. I'm sure it's a pretty simple arrangement, though.

Fred

[RoGrrr]

I kinda figgered it was as you described but wanted to make sure. I have several other leads on people who have BMs and eventually I want to visit them to get some ideas on how I can improve my MK 2.
Mine is one of those ongoing projects that I will finish but in the meantime I want to get as much info as I can so I don't have to tear it apart once I get it running. I have 4 200 grain 45ACP molds but I found one more on EB so I bought it. I'll eventually end up with 8 of them.
Anyway, I'm patient and I appreciate you helping out.
Roger


Roger,

It will be next week, since I'm leaving tomorrow for a match in the central part of the state. Our machine is set up about half an hour from my house (no room here for it), so the next time I go up there to cast, I'll take some pictures for you.

The float just looks like a square metal block hooked up to a pivot arm. Just about anything floats on lead, so I'm guessing it's probably steel. I haven't let the lead level get down enough to see where the hole between the two sides of the pot is, or how the stopper works. When we turn off the pot, the two sides of it tend to level out some before the alloy gets hard. I'm sure it's a pretty simple arrangement, though.

Fred

[Uptickk]

Thank you both for your detailed replies! I look forward to the pictures.

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
I'm working on my BM today and went to my shack to draw up a diagram so I could wire my controller. I pulled out the manual for the BM and in it is a data sheet on the DAYTON GEARMOTOR. It's 1/4 HP model 5K935 running 18 RPM.
Grainger states them to be unavailable and used to cost about $450.
search ebay or craigslist

[Uptickk]

Thank you for the information on the motor RoGrr.

Do you know what kind of solid state timer the BM is using for the pour solenoid? Looking at the plans it looks like it uses an Omron like this, http://www.mscdirect.com/product/54051123?fromRR=Y.

I am trying to figure out if Mode F allows you to set two different length timers (I doubt it). A delayed timer once a mold sensor is triggered under the pour pot and then a different length timer for the actual pour solenoid.

On that note do you know what kind of pour solenoid is being used and also what kind of mold sensor? I am new to this and just trying to figure it all out.

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
I have no idea about the pour timer. My machine came with a timer that is simply triggered for a variable time period. The adjustment is very coarse with no reference for proper setting so I'm going to go digital so I can set the period for exactly what I want and be able to repeat it when I change molds. I hadn't thought about a delay in the timing sequence especially since there is a cam on the drive motor with an adjustment for what I believe is pour time. My plan is to use it to trigger the digital timer. But until I get mine running, I'm still in the dark.
The pour solenoid was missing from mine so I'm going with an electrical solenoid for now. Several have suggested I use an air solenoid but I don't know why.
As far as mold sensor, I'm not sure what you mean. My machine had a switch to determine if a mold was present so it could pour lead. If you have open spots in the carousel, no lead will be poured. I plan to do something similar but will install pins in each mold to select which compartment to drop the boolit. This way I can cast 9mm and maybe different weights of 45s during the same run and have them properly separated/collated. I haven't yet figured out how to change the pour time for different boolit weights, tho. Might have to have more than one timer set up; maybe a PLC but I know absolutely nothing about them. I just thought of using some sort of optical sensor with a visual indicator on each mold or add a flag/platform on each mold bracket for the sensor/indicator.


Thank you for the information on the motor RoGrr.

Do you know what kind of solid state timer the BM is using for the pour solenoid? Looking at the plans it looks like it uses an Omron like this, http://www.mscdirect.com/product/54051123?fromRR=Y.

I am trying to figure out if Mode F allows you to set two different length timers (I doubt it). A delayed timer once a mold sensor is triggered under the pour pot and then a different length timer for the actual pour solenoid.

On that note do you know what kind of pour solenoid is being used and also what kind of mold sensor? I am new to this and just trying to figure it all out.

[Uptickk]

RoGrr

Based off what you have said it looks like I just need one variable timer for the pour solenoid. I guess I was over engineering it by having a delay once the mold switch determines a mold is in place and will probably just have it pour immediately once triggered. With that said I need to make some short of break so that my mold is exactly under the pot every time the index arm advances a mold.
Regarding the pour solenoid, I think the older BMs use an electric solenoid but looks like the newer ones use an air solenoid. I have no idea the +/- of each.

Going to try to work on a frame this weekend for my machine so hopefully that will give me a better idea for a mold break (to hold the mold under the pot). I will also need to look into a solenoid for the pour function, a switch to determine if a mold is present and a timer for the pour duration. I will probably stick with the timer that I previously posted since I think that is similar to what is in the plans.

[RoGrrr]

I think the system is designed to trigger the pour when or after the mold stops under the pour orifice so a delay might be unneeded. While the BUZZ of a solenoid is annoying there are ways to quiet that.
Concerning delay before pour, I'd say that the pour should happen as soon as possible after the stop to allow more time for the lead to solidify. Granted, it's a short time but every bit should help.
I also believe that a(n additional) brake is unnecessary (unless they are out of adjustment) since there are 2 friction devices, one under the pour orifice to align and hold the mold closed and the next one just before the mold is split to drop the boolit, both of which should stop any mold overtravel.




RoGrr

Based off what you have said it looks like I just need one variable timer for the pour solenoid. I guess I was over engineering it by having a delay once the mold switch determines a mold is in place and will probably just have it pour immediately once triggered. With that said I need to make some short of break so that my mold is exactly under the pot every time the index arm advances a mold.
Regarding the pour solenoid, I think the older BMs use an electric solenoid but looks like the newer ones use an air solenoid. I have no idea the +/- of each.

Going to try to work on a frame this weekend for my machine so hopefully that will give me a better idea for a mold break (to hold the mold under the pot). I will also need to look into a solenoid for the pour function, a switch to determine if a mold is present and a timer for the pour duration. I will probably stick with the timer that I previously posted since I think that is similar to what is in the plans.

[Uptickk]

Thank you for the heads up on the timing. Would you mind taking a picture of the friction point under the pour orifice that aligns and holds the mold closed? I only see it in one of the youtube videos but it isn't very clear to me. Do you think the spring that holds the molds together is enough or do you think the friction point under the pour orifice is necessary? Only reason I ask is because my workshop area isn't close to my home so trying to make sure I have everything I need before getting there.

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
The alignment/friction arms under the pour spout are not nearly as strong as at the sprue cutting station, tho I don't understand their rationale for this.
I'm posting 4 pics under the pour spout and 2 at the sprue cutting station.
838398384083841838428384383844

It appears that the guides at the sprue-cutting station give more friction than the guides at the pour station. You can see that by the difference between the 2 springs.

[Uptickk]

RoGrrr,

Thank you for posting the pictures. Much more clear than what I was able to pull from youtube videos.

I had not planned on alignment/friction arms under the pot but I guess it couldnt hurt to add. I figured the spring would be more than enough but will know more once I get the wheel turning.

Thanks again!

[Uptickk]

RoGrrr,

Any chance you would mind posting some pictures of how the mould arms are pushed together to release the boolits? Do they gradually open and then snap shut or do they gradually close? Thinking gradually otherwise the wheel might accelerate forward.

Also would you mind sharing at what time the operations occur. My best guess (wheel turning counter clockwise) is that:

12 is the pour
10>9 alignment/friction for the spruce
9>8 spruce is cut (thinking this occurs as the wheel indexes from the 9>8 position)
8>7>6 moulds are open for the bullet drop
6>5>4 moulds gradually close or snap close?
3>2 spruce cutter is reset (thinking this occurs as the wheel indexes from the 3>4 position)
1>12 alignment/friction under the pot

[RoGrrr]

Position #1 is the pour station. pic 17 views of positions 1 and 2.

Mold 3 (PIC 2 at position #4) is closed and approaching the ramps. Mold 2 (at position #4) has already opened and then snapped shut again. What you can't see to the left of Mold 3 is the where knocker breaks the adhesion of the boolit to the mold. I disremember if I posted a pic of it. I'll have to do that.

In pic 3 (approaching position #5) mold 3 is starting up the ramps and is completely open. This is where the boolit should fall out.

In pic 4, mold 3 (at position #5) has snapped shut as mold 2 (hdden from view) approaches the ramps to be opened again.

in pic 5, mold 3 is starting to open for the second time (approaching position #6). in pic 7, you see the mold open from the opposite side of the carousel.

pics 8 and 9 show a closeup of the mold fully open from opposite sides of the carousel, (approaching positions #5 and 6).

8515585156851578515885159851608516185162

[RoGrrr]

pics 10 and 11 show another closeup of the carriers and ramps.

pic 12 shows mold 5 at position 6.

pic 13 shows the foot that closes the sprue cutter. It has not closed yet. This is position #7. The sprue plate closes as the mold passes thru this position.

pic 14 shows mold 4 in position 8 with the sprue cutter fully closed. Next cycle of the machine brings a mold to position #1, the pour station.

pic 15 is the pour station. The mold in the foreground is at position 2, where it should have lead in it and the sprues cooling. The next cycle will cut the sprue off and the knocker will strike the sprue cutter to dislodge the boolits from the mold. Wiederladertv (Magma Master Caster with auto drive - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TWNmgEMnM) has a knocker that strikes the cutter several times. I have a timer that will allow for that and if I need it, I will install like he did.

pic
23 is where the sprue gets cut off and the "jaws" which hold the mold halves together during the cut. These jaws also act as a friction brake. As you can see, the spring on the left is quite substantial.

8516385164851658516685167851688516985170

[Uptickk]

These pictures are amazing! Thank you so much. Heading back to my shop this weekend to hopefully make some progress.

Any clue what type of knocker solenoid is being used to tap the carriers?

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
I used a simple 'push-type' solenoid similar to what was on the machine previously. I disremember why I bought it but I plan to install it since I have it. And based on what's shown in Wiederlader-tv's video, it doesn't seem like it takes all that hard a knock on the mold to dislodge the boolit, tho he uses about 5 strikes, where my BM only used one strike. As mentioned, I might set up my repeat timer to do multiple strikes too.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well the pics came out using my iphone 5. And since you asked specific questions, I knew what you were looking for. All of the YT vids are sorely lacking in clarity and detail so I made sure to capture that, tho they aren't intended as a primer on the specific design to aid in the construction of a clone. I deleted plenty of pics as I was making them.

[Uptickk]

Any ideas regarding the kind of lube to use on the carrier arms? Even though they are made out of harden steel there is quite a bit of friction when they are forced close and open. The Magma instructions say they provide a sample of what should be used but do not say what it is.

Thanks

Position #1 is the pour station. pic 17 views of positions 1 and 2.

Mold 3 (PIC 2 at position #4) is closed and approaching the ramps. Mold 2 (at position #4) has already opened and then snapped shut again. What you can't see to the left of Mold 3 is the where knocker breaks the adhesion of the boolit to the mold. I disremember if I posted a pic of it. I'll have to do that.

In pic 3 (approaching position #5) mold 3 is starting up the ramps and is completely open. This is where the boolit should fall out.

In pic 4, mold 3 (at position #5) has snapped shut as mold 2 (hdden from view) approaches the ramps to be opened again.

in pic 5, mold 3 is starting to open for the second time (approaching position #6). in pic 7, you see the mold open from the opposite side of the carousel.

pics 8 and 9 show a closeup of the mold fully open from opposite sides of the carousel, (approaching positions #5 and 6).

8515585156851578515885159851608516185162

[RoGrrr]

I seriously doubt it matters what kind of grease you use. I'll be using wheel bearing grease since it's rated for heavy loads and is probably able to withstand high heat, too.
I'd also say that something like RIG would be sufficient, too.



Any ideas regarding the kind of lube to use on the carrier arms? Even though they are made out of harden steel there is quite a bit of friction when they are forced close and open. The Magma instructions say they provide a sample of what should be used but do not say what it is.

Thanks

[Uptickk]

I agree, just didn't want to use anything that would muck everything up.

Thanks!