35 Whelen 280g cast load data

[Shuz]

I've been shooting the Lyman 358009 for many years now in a Rem 700 with a 1:12 twist. My load has been 48g of AA 4064 and the boolit heat treated to Bhn 22. Primer is CCI 200 and OAL is 3.107. Accuracy has been about 1" at 100 yds and the best ever was .980" for 3 shots. Velocity is nominal 2150fps depending on temperature.
I recently purchased a similar designed boolit mould made by Old West except that it has 3 different hollow point pins with it. I've only tried the one pin that gives a final weight of 283g. Imagine my surprise when this boolit gave a better than 6" group at 50 meters with the same load as my aforementioned 358009's! The only difference I can come up with is that the 358009 is 1.138" in length whereas the OW boolit is 1.153" long. I wouldn't think just .015" plus the hollow point should make that much of a difference. Any suggestions? Oh, as a control, I fired some of my 358009's with the same load; and while not the usual MOA group, was about 1-1/2" at the same 50 meters!

[nanuk]

what diameter are they dropping at?

or are you resizing them?

[Mk42gunner]

Silly question, but is the hollow point centered in the nose? Are the boolits hitting the paper point first or making oblong holes?

I would think 1:12 would be fast enough to stabilize most anything in .35 Cal.

Robert

[nanuk]

according to JBM, a 1/12 twist should stabilize a 280gr up to 1.6" long

[Shuz]

what diameter are they dropping at?

or are you resizing them?

boolits are dropping at .359 and I'm sizing them to .358 (just like the 358009)

[Shuz]

Silly question, but is the hollow point centered in the nose? Are the boolits hitting the paper point first or making oblong holes?

I would think 1:12 would be fast enough to stabilize most anything in .35 Cal.

Robert

The hollow point looks like it is centered and the holes in paper are not elongated. I guess I'll try and cast a few w/o the hollow point pin and then pinch off the stub at the place where the hole would be and shoot them as if they were solids. If they shoot as well as the 358009's then the hole is the culprit.
Another consideration might be that the portion of this boolit that is in front of the first DB, the portion that some refer to as the nose riding portion, mics .355 instead of the nominal .350-.351 of my Lyman 358009. Anyone else ever run into a boolit with this larger than normal bore riding portion?

[nanuk]

can you try shooting some unsized?

[Shuz]

I 'spose I could try some unsized, but this rifle has proven to me that it likes .358 sized boolits. I'm over at my daughter's place near Seattle right now and won't be able to try any more testing on this boolit until next week. Before I left home, I loaded up some air cooled Saeco 6-7 boolits from the 35 OW HP mould and 48g of H-4895 to see if a powder change and a softer boolit may help. Stay tuned in! More 'speriments to follow!

[badgeredd]

Shuz,

My best sizing diameter has always been .001 to .002" over groove diameter. My first thought would be to go a bit bigger in diameter. In 35 Whelen (and all of my other 35 rifles) I get consistently better results with a .360" sized boolit. I seriously doubt that a bigger nose is detracting from you accuracy. The hollow point is changing the center of your dynamic balance some for sure...can you cast some of the OW boolits without a HP?

Edd

[Shuz]

[QUOTE= The hollow point is changing the center of your dynamic balance some for sure...can you cast some of the OW boolits without a HP?

Edd[/QUOTE]

I will try that when I get back home.
With this particular rifle, .358 sized boolits, at least with my 358009, have worked the best in the past that's why I started there.

[helice]

My experience seems to follow that of Edd (Badgeredd). I size all my cast 350 Rem Mag boolits to .360 for best results.

[Marlin Junky]

I'm guessing (and I'm not familiar with the Old West boolit) the nose on 358009 is supporting the entire projectile while the nose on the Old West, is not.

Can you post pic's showing the difference in the two boolits?

Assuming you have a SAAMI 35W chamber, the only reason I can explain the level of accuracy you are experiencing with .358" boolits is the long bore riding surface of 358009.

MJ

[Shuz]

MJ--I'm over in Seattle at my daughter's place and don't have access to the boolits for any pics.
I'm not sure of the adherence of any of the 3 rifles to SAAMI standards, but I do remember that the 358009's are no more than .351 ahead of the FDB, but the OW boolit is .355 to .356 ahead of it's FDB, and I wonder if there in lies the problem? I plan on doing some more experimenting when I get back home early next week. I'm gonna try and make some OW boolits without the HP pin and also try sizing in a .360 die. IIRC the OW boolit drops at .359 so I may try some unsized and try bumping a few to achieve .360. I guess I could also Beagle that mould, so we'll see.
Just for the record--the three rifles I've tried the OW boolit in are a Rem 700 .35 Whelen with a custom chambered 1:12 Douglass bbl, a factory Rem 700 in .35 Whelen with a 1:16 bbl and a Browning pre-81 BLR in .358 Winchester with an unknown to me twist. Of the 3 rifles, only the 1:12 twist .35 Whelen shoots the 358009 extremely well, but they all throw the OW boolits into a shotgun pattern instead of a group at 50 meters.

[Marlin Junky]

...but they all throw the OW boolits into a shotgun pattern instead of a group at 50 meters.

I'm glad it's not my mold.

MJ

P.S. Actually, are you already a paper-patcher?

[Shuz]

MJ--I'm not a paper patcher. Seems like too much work for me.

[Shuz]

Well, 48g of AA4064 and heat treated boolits sized .360 didn't help. I tried both "solids" made with out the pin, and hollow points.
I also tried some .358 heat treated 283g HP boolits that I had on hand with 48g of H-4895 and they didn't shoot well either. Velocity was 2262fps. I think I'll try some more .360 heat treated boolits with 40g of H-4895 and see what happens. It doesn't appear that this hollow point similar weight version of 358009, can be driven as fast as 358009. At least not with any degree of hunting accuracy! Good thing I used a "sissy pad"; 280 to 290g moving at that speed can wreak havic on one's shoulder from a bench!

[sthwestvictoria]

For my 35 Whelen I found hardness was the secret (I think Blammer suggested the oven HT):

72755
Left to right is soft to hard with 50:50 air cooled, ACWW, WW oven heat treated.

All other details the same of 39.5grains 2206H (4895), 250grain CBE mold, gas check, panlube BW/vaseline/crayon/lanolin and sized .358. Fired from re-bored mauser 98K. Point of impact varies because I changed scope rings somewhere in there. All three targets are 4 shot groups

[Shuz]

For my 35 Whelen I found hardness was the secret (I think Blammer suggested the oven HT):

72755
Left to right is soft to hard with 50:50 air cooled, ACWW, WW oven heat treated.

All other details the same of 39.5grains 2206H (4895), 250grain CBE mold, gas check, panlube BW/vaseline/crayon/lanolin and sized .358. Fired from re-bored mauser 98K. Point of impact varies because I changed scope rings somewhere in there. All three targets are 4 shot groups

That last group sure is nice! What was the velocity?

[sthwestvictoria]

That last group sure is nice! What was the velocity?
No chronograph unfortunately. 1900-2000fps is an extrapolation from the Lee 1grain reduction method. 22 inch mauser barrel. The rifle is heavy with a good recoil pad. Recoil is present but is fine to shoot twenty in a sitting.

The caveat is that subsequent groups with this load have had a flyer each time. I wonder if this is position sensitivity in the relatively large case. I am not confident about fillers so I have tried the 40.0 and 40.5grain loads, the 40.5 looks good.

40grains 2206H (H495) in the whelen case:
72798

Another caveat is that these targets are at 50metres. This is a 40.5grain 2206H three shot group at 100metres:
72801
Does need a five shot group for confirmation and I'll try the 39.5grain group again as well (should say 79mm OAL).

[35Whelen]

You might even see the 100 yard groups shrink as the RPM of the bullet decreases and finds it's sweet spot.