lead free round balls?

[Whiterabbit]

My state may be going lead-free statewide. I do not want this to affect my ability to shoot PRB's for game.

Any ideas? I suppose I could try to cast tin or zinc, but this isn't for high power rifles or pistol, this is for a flintlock. Maybe cast REALLY small and go with a HUGE patch?

Lead free balls are commercially available, but only in 32, 45, 50, 54 and 62 cal, not in 58.

[bigted]

wow other then 32,,45,,50,,54,,62,,58 ... what the heck caliber do you have for hunting?

[Whiterabbit]

58 cal.

[Fly]

What state do you live in?
Fly

[Whiterabbit]

It's a sad time we live in that you have to ask that. Too many states passing draconian gun laws. The state in question is California.

I already hunt extensively in our condor zone which has been lead-free for as long as I have been hunting. But ever since I became interested in primitive sporting arms (well, just flint-based sporting arms, really) I have a desire to see black powder put meat on the table. (and I DON'T mean an inline!)

And though I can not control my state legislators, the Sierra Club, or the Humane Society, I will not bow to their goals of preventing me from hunting, shooting, and participating in gun ownership. If they will strip me of my rights in an attempt to control me, I will work to continue my personal activities despite their demands of city-folk culture conformity.

With some help from my friends as needed. I will not allow their lead ban to strip me of my ability to hunt with black powder!

[JeffinNZ]

I suggest you move state.

[DIRT Farmer]

There has been some work done with casting pewter and bismuth. I don't remember the details but they had some sucess.
(Bevel Brothers in Muzzle Blasts magazine)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I cringe thinking this.. but iffen they can make tire weights of (ugh) zink then RB can also be done. It melts at a low enough temp. I would think of using larger calibers for hunting purposes as there will be no obturation on Target. Does this ruling include popping varmits ?
This would be a good reason to get a caliber .62 or .69. I am very happy thumping critters with the larger calibers. But I do hunt river bottoms where my ranges are close.
Mike in Peru

[Whiterabbit]

I've cast and shot zinc before, but in cartridge rifles. I wouldn't hesitate to gear up for it again, but ONLY in smokeless cartridge rifles. Zinc is a non starter for most applications though, the density makes it super unredictable. When you have a 160grain length 357 mag bullet and it only weighs 95 grains, do you load assuming a 95 grain weight, or 160? They are a pain to cast (takes hours to get a couple dozen) so extensive load development is out.

Straight tin or with a smidge of bismuth may be a way to go. cast small and use a thick patch? Should be closer to lead density than zinc, anyways.

Internet says 80/20 Bi/Tin casts as "well" as 100Bi, thus a waste of tin. there was a document somewhere, someone experimented with 50/50, no real info. Maybe the ticket is mostly tin with some Bi. Or straight Tin.

Either way, I need to get onto hunting with lead NOW while I still can.

Thanks for the inputs.

[Fly]

Do these people know were lead comes from? The ground.We mine it from the ground & we shoot it & it
goes back in the ground.Geezzzzzzzzzz

Fly

[Rojelio]

Do these people know were lead comes from? The ground.We mine it from the ground & we shoot it & it
goes back in the ground.Geezzzzzzzzzz

Fly
That's right! Condors need to go extinct. They are an inferior species. We shoot tons of lead bullets in Texas, and the buzzard population is out of control. Give me a break PETA. I'm not buying your liberal b*******!!!

[Hellgate]

You might be able to use a sabot with an all copper sub-caliber copper projectile. Hopefully it will group depending on the twist.

[Whiterabbit]

I am not putting plastic in my flintlock. I'd rather load a lead ball and carry zinc/tin/bismuth balls in my pocket to show the warden (aka commit a crime) than put plastic into my flintlock.

[starmac]

That's right! Condors need to go extinct. They are an inferior species. We shoot tons of lead bullets in Texas, and the buzzard population is out of control. Give me a break PETA. I'm not buying your liberal b*******!!!

It has never been about the condors or lead, it is just a small step in their agenda. As soon as everyone gets comfortable with a step, their will be another.

[Skipper]

http://www.tomboboutdoors.com/index.php/products/itx-muzzle-loading

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/nonlead-field-test.php

[JeffinNZ]

I am not putting plastic in my flintlock. I'd rather load a lead ball and carry zinc/tin/bismuth balls in my pocket to show the warden (aka commit a crime) than put plastic into my flintlock.

That's a fine solution. If the warden wants to check the loaded ball he will have to stand down range and catch it.

[GabbyM]

You'd need a game warden with a nature to look the other way to get buy with loading lead and carrying tin.

[starmac]

The other way as apposed to looking down the bore??

[richhodg66]

I am not putting plastic in my flintlock. I'd rather load a lead ball and carry zinc/tin/bismuth balls in my pocket to show the warden (aka commit a crime) than put plastic into my flintlock.

This is probably what I would do if the preferred method (moving out of the People's Republik of Kalifornicated wasn't an option). The likelihood of a Condor eating a ball that big from a carcass seems pretty remote to me, I mean, how stupid are they?

I don't know about California, but I have hunted our muzzle loader season here extensively for 15 years or so and have yet to see a game warden. Usually I never see another soul and I hunt exclusively on public land. There just aren't that many guys hunting with muzzle loaders and game wardens just don't seem to waste their time being out. Ours is real early (September) and most game wardens are probably still watching the lake for fishing violations.

Lead in the pipe and tin in the possibles bag sounds like a solution. How would a warden even test to see if what you have is lead? A magnet wouldn't stick to lead, tin or bismuth.

[DIRT Farmer]

Lead wipes on the entry hole in the critter, then what is the meat contaminated with? That was one of the checks when steel was mandated for waterfoul.

[richhodg66]

Lead wipes on the entry hole in the critter, then what is the meat contaminated with? That was one of the checks when steel was mandated for waterfoul.

So they have some kind of a test wipe that a warden can use on the carcass to test for lead? I'm not a water fowl hunter so excuse my ignorance, but I've never heard of that before.

I think if I were a game warden, I'd probably have enough on my hands going after guys who were obviously causing a problem rather than messing with a muzzle loader hunter who may shoot one bullet during a season if he's lucky. Nothing against game wardens, the few times I have encountered them in the field, it was always a pleasant experience, this last year's opening day in November, he even helped me load my buck into the truck. But I really think most of them have better ways to spend their time on the job than chasing a problem that really isn't a problem.

[starmac]

Were talking cali here, where you can get canned for not breaking the law in another state.

[waksupi]

Those lead wipes may be defeated by the powder coating idea. Cast the round ball hard, so it is sure to pass through, and not leave a smear.

[Nobade]

58 caliber is actually easy to get lead free balls for. Go to McMaster Carr and order 9/16" brass balls and shoot them with a thick denim patch. It actually works reasonably well, and if you make a catch box you can re-use them until one hits the other and dents it.

You can also get lead free balls of various sizes from BPI, the shotgun loading guys.

-Nobade

[Whiterabbit]

wow. That would exactly explain why 58's aren't available. They are only a buck ten a pop before shipping too (only :(). They are even made from 260 (70/30 Cu/Sn) rather than the 360 barnes uses for their banded solids (3% lead, no-go for lead-free zones).

Both my local metals supplier and my bearings supplier don't stock them :(. I hate buying online, but looks like that is the answer.

Golly, I wonder what a 9/16 brass ball would do to a buffalo. I can't imagine it being more effective than a lead ball (I know for deer and pig I'd be GTG). My local Buffalo ranch is lead-free only (despite lead-free not being a legal requirement for highwalls).

[dualsport]

The lead ban hasn't passed yet. The Dept. of Fish and Game opposes it. It is strictly the anti groups trying to get it passed. Might happen, might not. We'll see.

[Whiterabbit]

First of all, thank you for calling it DFG. I will fight DFW for as long as at least one other person also calls if DFG.

I hope it also does not come to pass.

[Hellgate]

The nontoxic shot from BPI has a flat band around the middle so proper alignment during loading might be critical for accuracy. Hopefully someone here has shot them and can comment on whether that is a problem.

[Whiterabbit]

I was there for a demo in 54 cal when I took my first BP clinic. The first ball got stuck in the bore of a rifle and that rifle was done for the clinic. The second rifle took the ball and was shot through 5 or so milk jugs of water. The ball was recovered and completely non deformed.

So it was loaded and shot again.

It was shot at under 25 yards so no comment on accuracy. But I was aware that the ball was to be loaded on the band.

[John Taylor]

I understand gold will work in place of lead, you would want to recover the balls after shooting.

[Whiterabbit]

Wouldn't surprise me if CA passed a gold-only projectile law (only inert metal, afterall), combined with a section that states thou shalt not pick up your own projectiles. It's for the environment.

[Fly]

You got me to thinking about this, & that's not good.If a Condor eats a brass .54 ball & passes it while in flight
think it could kill some one walking under them.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Fly

[Whiterabbit]

I suppose a low carbon steel ball would work too? .562" diameter for a .58 bore..

[DIRT Farmer]

Might have to be careful with the steel ball, could be considered armor pirecing.

[Whiterabbit]

thankfully CA hasn't outlawed AP projectiles for rifles yet.

[Maven]

Whiterabbit, You may want to go here http://www.americanlongrifles.com/ and look for the BP shooting section. Once there, search for "roundball's" (no quotation marks) posts on using brass roundballs in his rifles. You may need to go back to Sept. - Nov. 2012 to find them though. His work was most informative and those brass spheres really worked well.

[Whiterabbit]

having trouble finding it. Was he posting in someone else's thread? I can't search so I'm going through it page by page. No threads started by Mr. Roundball.

[Maven]

Couldn't find it there either. Try this forum: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/274030/post/1209459/hl/brass+roundballs/fromsearch/1/#1209459

[BadDaditood]

Pretty soon gonna need brass balls just to Stay in california :veryconfu

[Whiterabbit]

Welp, my order arrived. I have 20 of these round balls, and there's a good chance I won't be able to trap them to use them again, given range policies, unless I can come up with a very lightweight catchbin. I can't haul out phonebooks to shoot at varying distances.

I'm happy to waste all 20 if it means I'll end up with a dead-accurate load. But I know that I'm not in the best of waters right now.

Anyways, anyone have any idea for load data? Shall I just use the thickest patching I have (.562 roundball) and use the same loads that produce accuracy?

[Whiterabbit]

and with pic

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74065&d=1371744497

I hope .562 brass + .017" mattress ticking is as accurate as .575 lead + .009" fabric. I haven't weighed these, but I DO know they are going to be screaming out of the barrel. a .575 lead roundball is already flying at 1500 fps with 80 grains of 3f

[Hellgate]

They might be out the barrel before all the powder burns. You might want to try 3F if you are usually using 2F.

[Whiterabbit]

shot them today, very poor groups. maybe 8 inches at 50 yards. Tried 80 and 70 grains, gave up after that. The patching is very thick. If I push hard, I can start the ball with my thumb. So it is stiff, but will still give. Still need to push firmly with the rod to drive home. Doesn't seem too loose. Other than that I use patches cut at the muzzle lubed with ATF. I do this because it is what works with lead, and it works REALLY well.

Anything else I can try?

Only have so many balls also. They must penetrate like crazy because I couldn't dig any out of the berm without the rangemaster yelling at me over the PA. So anything I shoot is gone. So can only test a couple more ideas before I am out of balls.

[OverMax]

Although you would like to go on harvesting game with your flintlock. Its no longer practical thanks to your Sacramento State legislators. Time to purchase another rifle OP. One that will fit the application your State law requires. I would think carrying a flint lock afield would throw up a red flag to any warden observing you from a distance. Keep in mind they too may have at their disposal CO-2 ball dischargers with the appropriate nozzles to clear most any B/P rifle barrel. Not to take the matter lightly or be rude. But it appears to me those in California who shoot them old smoke pole Flinters & Cap locks just had their rifle retired to hang on the wall without its owners permission. Oh well. Only in California.
O/M

[Whiterabbit]

I don't take your response as light or rude. It is practical answer, worth digesting and understanding.

But I do not employ practical solutions because that is when "they" win. When they force insane laws on me, I choose to respond with insane ideas to at least maintain status quo. The alternative is to admit defeat. This land (state) is worth fighting for.

[dualsport]

The California Rifle and Pistol Association has led the fight against AB711, the lead ammo ban. We have prevailed, for now. The bill has gone to suspense file as far as I can tell. So, sanity has shown it's face in Sacramento, thanks to all the public support. If you're a California shooter you really need to take a look at joining up with the CRPA. It just feels good to be a member.

[Whiterabbit]

Now that I'm an NRA life member I was not sure whether to send donations to CRPA or CGF, having insufficient income to donate to everyone.

That debate is now over.

[Whiterabbit]

At the risk of taking the thread off topic, I would like to respond. I am still VERY VERY much interested in any ideas or things to look for to get my brass balls to shoot as well as my lead balls within 100 yards (or at least double the group size at 50y or better)

I've tried various rebuttals to the "move" argument because I'm not ready to abandon my state, I'd like to try this one:

When sufficient soldiers retreat from the front lines, the front line moves back and your troops get less territory. I think we need all the soldiers we can get IN California and similar states to keep the front lines moving in a direction we want, yes? You ever see gunbroker ads saying they won't sell to CA or similar? how about in forums? Support us. Sell to us. Get guns and accessories in CA, and deal with the **** system to do so. We will keep the front lines out of YOUR neighborhood.

[Maven]

Whiterabbit, The guy from whom I got the brass roundball idea from, "roundball," was on the American Longrifles forum this AM. Although the topic in the following link isn't germane to the accuracy problem you're experiencing, you can send him a PM through that forum: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=26989.30

[johnson1942]

i havent read all the replys so forgive me if im repeating what some one else already posted. find a right size sabot and instead of a bullet use the right size steel or brass round ball bearing in it. i and many others have done this with lead round balls in a sabot and got them to shoot accrately. one can even cut the pedals shorter if needs be to make them work. just a idea to what is being done out their all ready.

[nonlead]

I recently made some round balls with commercially available alloy. They were shot into Permagel and water. The Permagel stopped the lead balls at 19 inches, but the bismuth balls exited at 32 inches. In water they preformed identically. The allow melts at ~ 500* and the only real difference is it's a little lighter and makes larger balls from the mold than with lead. The alloy works better if you keep the mold closed for 30 seconds before you open it. If you dont, the balls "sweat" and get weird.... just don't open it as soon as with lead. they get fine accuracy and are malleable to a similar extent as a high antimony ball....they dent and can be smashed with a hammer and when we pushed one through the barrel they had marks from the ram rod. The alloy is from Rotometals (http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/leadfreebulletalloy.htm)
https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10313533_757473664298090_3027313553491920468_n.jpg
lead free roundballs

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/10384366_757466504298806_3494548730590895071_n.jpg
Lead free on top, lead on the bottom. Same shooter, same charge, same rifle, same distance.

[Beagle333]

You may have to switch to a .56 Renegade smoothie. You can shoot marbles, steel bearings, or pretty much anything you can poke down the barrel. :grin:

[True.grit]

If they could get a buzz from smoking lead they would be fighting to legalize it. I think I would try glass marbles and see how they group. They are cheap and you do not have to worry about recovery.

[johnson1942]

ive often thought why not make a barrel that is .505 on top of the lands bore diam. and .515 bottom of grove diam. 1/60 twist. and just shoot .50 bronze ball bearings. they are avail. on the internet by the 100 pk. a tough thinner patch, lubed with alox and thompson bore butter. all this combo should be a real shooter. the only draw back i could for see is the richochet could be a problem if the ground is real rocky. one of those thing could really bounch a long ways.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I am not putting plastic in my flintlock. I'd rather load a lead ball and carry zinc/tin/bismuth balls in my pocket to show the warden (aka commit a crime) than put plastic into my flintlock.

Why don't you stop putting off so many suggestions if you really want to shoot RB in your 58 at a deer in the lead free zone with out following the requirement?

Buy a 2 pound roll of lead free solder and cast some ball. I am sure that if you shoot a harder RB through a deer's vitals it will die right there. A 58 hard RB will be like shooting a piece of rebar through a deer. Many hunters actually harden lead RB to use on larger than deer game game for deeper penetration. I have taken many deer with a 1300 fps, 350 grain hardened lead alloy 45 bullet......and you can better that velocity and energy with a tin 58 RB and still have good range with better killing power simply due to ball diameter.

BvT

[Eagle66]

Go with whatever metal ball alloy that works, but before going out, select your patch & lube carefully.

I would try to find some cotton patch cloth grown from Monsanto GMO cotton seed that was fertilized & pesticided with DuPont chemicals. For lube use either lard (or some other animal fat) or some brand of veg shortening with loads of trans fat. Make sure you have company logos displayed on your possibles bag for all of the above.

I don't know if it'll shoot any better, but it will be more fun.