First range session with my 1896 Krag

[Finnmike]

(Cross-posted on the Culver forum)
Went to the range today with a full box of cast bullet loads. Most testing was done at 50 yards, since I had no idea of the impact of these loads with the 1896 sights. While 50 yards gave me indications of good loads, they don't always indicate stability out to 100 yards or beyond. (The principal issue I had was the performance of my 65-yr old eyes with the original sights intended for 18-25 yr old recruits.)

The best 50-yd load was 18 gr. 2400 under a .309/204 gr 311299. 1.5" center to center. I was a little squeamish about this level of 2400 so only made up 5 rounds. I need to try this at 100 yds.

The best 100 yd load was 17 gr. 2400 under the same 311299, with a group of 1.25". I was shooting with my glasses and a homemade diopter made of pierced electrician's tape. While it's good to be good, it's better to be lucky in this case. I got a group of 1.5" at 50 yd. with this load.

Lighter charges of 2400 from 15-16 gr did not stabilize that 311299 as well as the 17-18 gr loads. My bore mikes out at .301-.3075 so maybe a 312-314 diameter cast will give good results. One load with a Lee .310/185 over 17 gr. 2400 also grouped at 1.25".

I have to wonder what peep sights would do....
718787187971880

[Char-Gar]

Good results. Larger bullets will shrink the groups.

[blixen]

Thanks for the report.
I shoot 7.65 Arg. and .303 brit and found it very informative.
Curious to see your results with a larger diameter bullet.

[Char-Gar]

The Krag rifle has a very long and large throat to accommodate the 200 grain bullets under combat conditions. The fit of the cast bullet to this large throat is more important than the groove diameter of the rifle and the throat is always larger in the Krag than the bore which varies quite a bit. .

Throw in the fact that any cast bullet load that will run through the magazine will place the bullet back away from the rifling and the fit of the bullet to the throat becomes important for the bullet to enter the barrel straight and not cockeyed. Cast bullets being denser that jacketed will always be shorter even when the weight is the same. Therefore cast bullet will hit the rifling on the run

Most of us have found that larger bullets that fill this throats can often run as large as .314 to .315. The limiting factor is the chamber neck size. You can get bullets too large for rounds to chamber. I have three Krag rifles and .314 is as large as I can use and in one of them, this is a tight fit. We always have the option of neck turning the case necks to thin them out a couple of thousands to allow for larger bullets that will chamber.

My records show that .314 bullets in all three of my military Krags will outshoot .311 or .312 bullets by a significant amount. My groups shrank from 1.2" to .75 inches at 50 yards. The bullet was 311291 over 16/2400 sized .314. 100 yard groups will run from 1.5 to 1.75 inches depending on how much coffee I have had, the sun, wind and all those factors. With properly fitted cast bullets a Krag rifle with a good barrel should be a 2 MOA rifle with ease.

All of my Krags have had the barrels shortened to 22 or 24 inches and wear receiver/peep sights. The triggers are atrocious and full military. The peep sight is much easier for older eyes to use. look through the fuzzy rear sight and focus on the front sight. The target will also be a little fuzzy, but the eye will place the blurry black bull where it needs to be. i.e. balanced on top of the front sight. As long as you can keep the front sight sharp, you are good to go. I have a pair of glasses made to allow me to focus on the front sights. Can't see jack up close with them, but who cares.

A good 03 or 03A3 will shade the Krag by a little, but the load and skill of the rifleman will make more of a difference.

If your rifle is new to cast bullets, be certain and clean out all of the old metal fouling from the barrel. After 100 years of jacketed bullet shooting, this can be a chore to be certain. I have found the foam cleaner Wipe-Out to make this chore much easier, much easier.

Best of luck with your Krag. Beware they can be addictive......

[BruceB]

Okay, peeples, LISTEN UP!!!!!

Here, right here, in just one post, Chargar has given us the condensed wisdom of generations of Krag shooters.

Follow the advice contained herein, and you will have success FAR quicker than you will by groping around on your own.

This is a post "for the ages".... he has done us a great service by giving us this information, and I really wish that I'd seen it about forty years back.

Muchas gracias, amigo.

[Finnmike]

Chargar, thanks for sharing your experience and acquired wisdom, I've been reading and bookmarking your posts for some time. Since a 314299 is looming in my future, can I ask if it will accomodate sizing down to .312 for my 2-groove 03A3? I already cast for the 311299...and yes, the throat on my Krag is long - I've been seating to the lands and single-feeding so far.

One other thing - you've expressed reservations on the use of 18 gr or more of 2400 on these actions, but my rifle really likes that charge. Perhaps a tighter boolit will let me get away with lesser charges?
Thanks,
Mike

[Char-Gar]

Bruce...Thanks for the kind words. 50 years with the Krag rifle should teach a fellow something. I think I have made about every mistake that can be made with these rifles.

The 1917, 03 and 03A3 are much easier rifles to put through their paces than the Krag. But, the first time you lift the bolt on a Krag and slide it to the rear, you are hooked for sure and for certain. Once addicted, what is left is to learn the "Ways of the Krag". They are quirky devils.

[Char-Gar]

Finnmike...I recently put together a Krag action sporter using a 2 groove Remington 03A3 Barrel. My gunsmith is pretty savy and he sent his reamer back to the maker and had it reground to minimum specs as the standard reamer if for the long and loose military chamber. My rifle will do very well with the heavy 311284 bullet. I have a 314299, but it is still in the factory wrap unused. I will get my round tuit some day.

I do have my concerns about too much 2400 in a Krag action do to their brittle nature and the hard hit of the quick powder. However, that is just theory, I don't know of any rifle that has come to harm with 2400. I am just a cautious sort. When I was young, I used to play fast and loose with powder gases, but no longer. Murphy and his "rule" has an affinity for me.

As you know, I prefer a case full of WC872 in the 30-40 case over top end fast powder loads.

I have no qualm sizing bullets down from .315 to .312 or even a little smaller as long as it was done in a nose first/push through sizer. I did enough tests on this some years back to remove any unease I had about this. Since that time, I dote on fat 30 molds. I am talking military and sporter rifles here and not bench rest guns.

The long and short of it, what works in a rebarreled Krag depends on the configuration of the chamber.

[nekshot]

darn, all this good info and no place to go with it.....gotta get me one of these!

[Finnmike]

Chargar - My sizer is a Lyman 4500 - won't that do a good job of sizing? What is the advantage of the push-thru? Sheesh...I need to find a bigger room...

[Char-Gar]

Finnmike...

I have three Lyman 450 lube-sizer machines that I use to size handgun bullets and lube rifle bullets.

We have found out that in the traditional Lyman/RCBS/SAECO machine where the bullet is pressed into the die by pressure in the nose, that long bullets can be bent. When this happens accuracy suffers. This is not an issue with short squat bullets, but the longer thinner ones can fall victim.

We like to use sizing dies that mount in the top of the reloading press and bullets are pushed through from the bottom. This eliminate the possibility of bent bullets.

Lee press mounted sizing dies work just fine and can be opened up to accommodate sizes that Lee does not offer. Folks like Buckshot can make these in any size you wish for a very reasonable price.

There are also gizmos available that hold the standard RCBS/Lyman dies in the top of the press and can be used as nose first push through dies. One of our members makes these things and they work very well. With this, I can used my substantial collection of RCBS/Lyman sizing dies.

Of course doing things this ways involved an extra step. You still have to lubricate the bullet and I do that in a Lyman machine. I take the same die I had in top of the press, put it in the Lyman 450 and do the lube after the bullet has been sized.

This extra step is something some folks are not willing to take. But many of us have found it to be worth the effort for the accuracy benefits it yields.

[Finnmike]

Points and experiences well taken, I will pursue. Ordered a Lee .314 push-thru setup from grafs last night, and another 200 Winchester 30/40 cases. Next on my list is a NOE .314299....Thanks to all.

[Dutchman]

I've known FinnMikey for a long time. Glad to see him join this forum.

Pictures get you extra points!!

My "NRA" carbine. Primo bore but I'm shot it only a few times but it likes cast bullets. Thought I had some data but can't find it.

Dutch

http://images43.fotki.com/v398/photos/2/28344/157842/krags1b-vi.jpg

[Bob S]

My two favorite 30-40 cast loads were/are 15 grs 2400 with Ideal 311291 and 17 grains 2400 with Ideal 311284. Both of these would plop ten rounds into the ten ring of the MR target reduced for 200 yards from prone using the M1901 rear sight with the aperture opened up some. That ten ring is a smidgen less than 4 inches. That particular rifle (a M1898 full length infantry rifle) now wears a Redfield 70KT rear sight and a shortened Swiss Products clamp-on front sight for my ancient eyes. The bore diameter is .3087", and my bullets have always beens sized to .309 since I started with this one in 1965 ... it might do better with bigger bullets, but under 4" at 200 yards was good enough for me, so I quit "load development", called it "good", and loaded up a gozzillion of them.

I have since acquired about a dozen more Krags .... infantry rifles, sporters, and one Norwegian. These things are just plain fun to shoot!

I don't own a genuine carbine, but I'm not that enthralled with them. Back when the Infantry and Cavalry entered separate teams in the Nationals, the cavalry got special dispensation to compete with infantry rifles, because the carbine just couldn't compete ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Char-Gar]

The front sight is the "tell" it is a cut down. Rear sight is probably a rifle sight. These are great carbines and interesting in their own right. You are lucky it still have the top handguard.

The 03 front band is a great fit on a 22" cut down Krag rifle barrel. But, you need to heat it to expand it and drive it on.

[Dutchman]

http://images55.fotki.com/v608/photos/2/28344/157842/kr08-vi.jpg

http://images61.fotki.com/v666/photos/2/28344/157842/kr03-vi.jpg

[Mark Daiute]

OK Dutchman, time to ask what the serial number is on your carbine. Looks like, quacks like and smells like a duck with a 1905 front site on the bill.

The truly interesting anomaly is the handguard. It doesn't cover the receiver. Are the rivets flush? You may have a very early handguard from an 1892 rifle in which case it may be worth more than the whole rifle. Let's see some photos. But then again I don't think the 1892 handguard will fit 1901 rear sight. wheres 5 and Dick Hosmer when you need them!

[madsenshooter]

FinnMike, bear in mind that the 314299 is also going to have a larger nose (.303). In my Krags, a nose a bit larger than the .301 bore diameter seems to help things go straighter. In other words the bullet won't be just riding the top of the lands, it'll be engraving some, which can raise pressures substantially. So when you get that bigger mold, start over on working up the charge. As I said, my Krags seem to prefer them a bit larger, a little engraving is no big deal, just less chance of the bullet getting crooked in the bore.

[Char-Gar]

That be a carbine sight which brings a pretty penny these days.

[Dutchman]

http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/2/28344/157842/kr07-vi.jpg

http://images61.fotki.com/v666/photos/2/28344/157842/kr06-vi.jpg

http://images108.fotki.com/v1623/photos/2/28344/157842/photo-vi.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v258/photos/2/28344/157842/photo-vi.jpg

I was initially offered either of these or both. I picked the one less modified, the top one.

http://images46.fotki.com/v4/photos/2/28344/157842/photo-vi.jpg

top one is mine.
http://images15.fotki.com/v588/photos/2/28344/157842/photo-vi.jpg

bottom one is mine.
http://images14.fotki.com/v384/photos/2/28344/157842/photo-vi.jpg

[Finnmike]

I've known FinnMikey for a long time. Glad to see him join this forum.

Pictures get you extra points!!

My "NRA" carbine. Primo bore but I'm shot it only a few times but it likes cast bullets. Thought I had some data but can't find it.

Dutch

http://images43.fotki.com/v398/photos/2/28344/157842/krags1b-vi.jpg

Here's the linky to my pics, Dutch. Good to find you slum around with 'merican rifles too...;-)
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?39265-Found-my-CB-Krag-today-1896

[Finnmike]

FinnMike, bear in mind that the 314299 is also going to have a larger nose (.303). In my Krags, a nose a bit larger than the .301 bore diameter seems to help things go straighter. In other words the bullet won't be just riding the top of the lands, it'll be engraving some, which can raise pressures substantially. So when you get that bigger mold, start over on working up the charge. As I said, my Krags seem to prefer them a bit larger, a little engraving is no big deal, just less chance of the bullet getting crooked in the bore.

Roger that; my 311299 will engrave lightly when set at the crimping groove. I'm going to work with some slower powders and lighter loads of 2400. If the 314s slug the bore tighter they will hopefully stabilize with lower charges. Hopefully, it won't take 100 yds or more for them to settle down..Swede has my 314299 on its way!

[madsenshooter]

Swede like to keep his buyers happy!

[Dutchman]

Here's the linky to my pics, Dutch. Good to find you slum around with 'merican rifles too...;-)
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?39265-Found-my-CB-Krag-today-1896

Can't see the photos unless you're registered on that forum...

I have several 'merican rifles: M1903, M1917, M1 Garand and this Krag carbine. I work with the Mausers more because most of my shooting Mausers now have LER scopes so I can actually see the target.

I also cast 311299 and 314299 with Lyman d/c molds. They drop perfectly dimensioned from the mold. I also have a Lee Group Buy 311407 6 cavity for 180 gr Loverin modified. Haven't shot those yet but cast up a bunch.

Dutch