.303 Martini-Enfield with Strange Rifling Problem

[DoctorBill]

This thread has been moved here from a special Projects thread (it was "off Topic" there,
so I moved it here).

I just bought a .303 Martini-Enfield rifle on GunBroker (Duke Morosky- Dukes.Guns@gmail.com) for $375.

http://s19.postimg.org/peg9p3pk3/Rifle_A.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/k3oskh3c3/Receiver_Markings_Right.jpg

I slugged it with a .357 Lead Slug.

http://s19.postimg.org/59mpjmvqb/Slugging_Results.jpg

Shot out ! Mics out to 0.309 to 0.311.
The bore looks OK with a Bore Light - I can see rifling plainly.
http://s19.postimg.org/m201w7l7n/Rifling_or_Not_Rifling.jpg

I was planning on shooting WW Cast Bullets with TRAIL BOSS loads.

Essentially a Musket ! I wonder if I can hit the ground if I aim down with it ?!

Just slugged one of my Lee Enfields.....yikes ! the L-E .308 - .314.

http://s19.postimg.org/osraszuhv/M_H_compared_to_Lee_Enfield_Slugging_Results.jpg
Back to the Gun Case....

Wish one of these in 303 Enfield or even Metford would show up !
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Gah...item460f837362 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Gahendra-Martini-Henry-Rifle-Barrel-577-450-1880s-COMPLETE-W-SIGHT-/300907983714?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460f837362)
Maybe someday I'll find a 303 M-H barrel for sale....unshot out....

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

The Rifling in this old barrel was nearly plugged up with old garbage...
looked like cobwebs and dust....hasn't been cleaned in a LONG LONG time !

Also - I am confused about the rifling in this Martini-Enfield.
The muzzle mics out to .309 - .311 and the bore at the muzzle looks
essentially smooth - no grooves visible - just lines.

Enfield rifling (Lee Enfield) had the bore at .308" and the Grooves at .314".

How can this Enfield Rifling be like this !?

I assumed the rifling was worn out, but now I think it is FILLED IN
with hardened Cordite/Lead/Copper residue....

Been trying various solvents with a SS Brush to clean the rifling -
getting enormous amounts of residue out of this old barrel - continuously.

As you all know, that Blue Coloring comes from Copper Jacketed Bullet copper
left in the barrel.....this gun has been shot often...
http://s19.postimg.org/ahv846c6b/Filth_From_the_Martini.jpg

It never stops coming out !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Tried Rubbing Alcohol:Hoppe's No. 9, Dow Surface & Window Cleaner, then Mineral Spirits.
All gave me MORE junk out of the Barrel.
I decided to go crazy and am soaking the Bore with "Gunk" Automotive Engine De-greaser.
I am trying to find something that will cut into that hardened, Baked in, "Residue" from
years of shooting .303 British rounds.
All that hard residue probably protected the lands over the years !
I had tried Wipe-Out-Patch-Out....some good.
I have Sweets 7.62 Solvent.....may try that later....

I want to find something where CHUNKS of Groove Goo come out.
Trying to release it in pieces instead of a thousandth at a time with brushing 50x.

I'd like to try Hydrogen Peroxide, but Oxygen would corrode the Iron.
Basic - Acidic - Oil Based - Water Based.....what's left......?
Paint Stripper ?
I have some "Klean-Strip" Premium Stripper, but THAT stuff is NASTY !
Got some on my skin and it BURNS ! Methylene Chloride - nasty stuff !

BTW - I took off the Stock Front Piece so's I don't booger up the finish.

DoctorBill

My Typo's are because of my lousy eyesight up close - bear with me - I correct them.

[DoctorBill]

I guess I really boogered this 303 Martini-Enfield up.

One of my attempted cleaners cleaned the Bluing off the barrel in a strip !
Came off like paint thinner on paint - vanished. FAST !

http://s19.postimg.org/556dq1o9v/Martini_Design.jpg

I can feel an edge between the blued and bare metal in some spots.

Wonder if that wasn't a form of paint. More Black than real bluing....

The barrel, after a whole lot of Black while wet - Grey/Brown when dry material had been
cleaned out, it slugs maybe 0.001" wider - but with just a hint of one groove
visible on the lead slug.

The muzzle end of the rifle has essentially no visible grooves - like it is worn out, but I am fairly
sure there are grooves further into the barrel.

The slug stops having any resistance about 10 inches into the barrel - funnel like.
The 577-450 Martini's were designed like that.

I wonder if this wasn't made with the rifling essentially disappearing a couple of
inches from the muzzle.....the muzzle end mics out to essentially a smooth .309 !

The bore diameter was .303. The Groove depth was .005.
If the 'Lands' were worn away, the barrel should mic out at .313-.314" ! (?)

http://s19.postimg.org/lwrp8soir/enfield_rifling.jpg

I do not understand what is with this barrel.......can anyone help with this conundrum ?

I am not sure this rifle is safe to shoot !
I don't understand the rifling the way it is.

Cannot see into the breech end because of the narrow Martini Breech design.
I need to find a piece of mirror somewhere and cut a narrow chunk to see in the
breech end of the barrel.

Can't do a cast - also because of the Martini Breech design.
How would I get it out ?!

Never saw metal rust so fast either !

I may have to write this rifle off.....damn !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I just got up, so I am less pissed off at this situation.

Had to go back and re-read the Lyman Reloading Manual about 303 British.

44th Ed...."In rifles which we have checked, the diameters range from .309" to .317"
If your groove diameter runs on the small size (under .310") the use of jacketed
bullets is not recommended at all."

I had forgotten that fact.

Don't know the chamber throat condition....I think I will attempt to do a CerroSafe
chamber casting.
If I can't get it past that Martini Receiver, I can always melt it out with boiling water !

I do not want to unscrew the barrel from the receiver - it has been staked and may
not go back together as before.

Re-barreling or sleeving costs more than this rifle is worth !

I suppose it will be safe to shoot - IF I reload with .309 Cast Bullets.

DoctorBill

[junkbug]

Dr. Bill;
From your picture of the crown/crest, that is no English made rifle. It is most likely made in the Kyber Pass of Pakistan, on equipment similar to what American gunsmiths made Kentucky rifles with 200 years ago. Often the Kyber Martini had an action made from scrap rail-road track.

Some of these rifles are very old, the Pathans started copying them nearly 100 years ago. Some are only a few months old. Many people are terrified of shooting them. With a cast bullet, and 16 grains of 2400, I would try, but the risk is up to you to decide. The metallurgy is completely unknown.

Good luck with it. Maybe it will stabilize a .311" round-ball, just to pot at paper with, or shoot squirrels.

[truckjohn]

x2 on the bad news....
That's no British Enfield... It's a "Khyber pass" knockoff...
Likely every single part was made by hand... Many aren't safe to shoot... but some are... Many are made by real life gunsmiths.... and those guys can fab up any part you want complete with heat treat and all....

The reason you don't "Understand" the rifling the way it is is that it's got no rifling....

Thanks

[DoctorBill]

Junkbug - So these import marks have no meaning ?

http://s19.postimg.org/5cym0aomb/Import_Marks.jpg

Says it came from England. Why would they send a Pakistani rifle back
to England ?


DoctorBill

[texassako]

I would rig up an electronic bore cleaner if you are bit handy. http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/ I would also suggest comparing your receiver stamps to known fakes and real ones to be sure it is not a Khyber Pass. Better safe than sorry, and trusting an import stamp is not something I would bet my health on. I would like an authentic one, but only if I can handle it in person. I think you must have used something to harsh to clean with and etched into the steel where the blue came off.

[JMtoolman]

Bill why don't you try to clean the bore with a transformer and rod in the bore. This will deposit all of the fouling on the rod, and it may take several times to get the fouling out. Take a small transformer of some discarded charger, snip the ends, and the wire with the marks on it will be the positive lead. Cork the chamber end and stand it upright, make a weld rod or small diameter rod with plastic tape every three inches apart to act as an insulater, and slide it down the bore to rest on the plug in the chamber. Attach the neg, lead to this rod, the positive to the barrel. A plastic funnel sealed on the muzzle acts as a supply for a 10% ammonia fluid filling of the bore. Plug the transformer in and watch it foam. When the foaming stops the ammonia is starting to be depleated. Remove the rod and clean the crud that has been deposited on it. You may have to do this several times, with about a half hour sessions. You will be amazed at the stuff that comes off of the bore. When the action stops and you don't get any more deposits on the rod, that is all of the material removed from the bore. It may still be a poor barrel but it will be clean! The toolman.

[DoctorBill]

"IF" indeed this is a Pakistani Knock Off, perhaps THAT is why the Bluing came off so easily !

I don't believe real rifle bluing dissolves almost instantly ! (?)

I have no experience with bluing, but can it come off so fast and easily like that ?!

What would a Pakistani Tribesman use to Blue a rifle ?

How can I find out if this is NOT RIFLED ?
Are those rifling 'marks' I see just lightly cut lines in the barrel to fool someone (me!) ?

http://s19.postimg.org/m201w7l7n/Rifling_or_Not_Rifling.jpg

DoctorBill

[truckjohn]

Import stamps are vague at best... They put UK on it because that's where they thought the receiver was manufactured.... Just like every single Russian 91/30 says "Russia" on the import stamps... Doesn't matter if it came in through Germany, Russia, Estonia, Ukraine, Finland, or somewhere else...

Then.. Sometimes, they are just plain wrong... I had a Russian 91/30 that was import stamped "7.92mm Mauser, Czechslovakia".... and no - it was just a plain 91/30... They just got happy with the Mauser stamps that day I guess...

If you check out the Martini enthusiast sites - they have whole pages of how to spot genuine property markings and stamps.... Unfortunately - There was no King/Queen "P P Shapori" of England.... Not an original.... and the Middle Eastern Empires had their own, unique property markings....

On the bluing.. Yes - some bluing removers will strip bluing almost instantly....

On the rifling - sometimes the rifling all rots out of the barrel from rust and neglect... All that's left is a shadow... I had a Chinese bolt action that showed the merest shadow of rifling... A tight patch wouldn't turn running down the barrel.. and bullets keyholed....

Thanks

[texassako]

For reference, your receiver sides should look similar to my sporter(maybe different dates):

Nice crisp, proper dates, and V.R. from when it was converted to .303 on left
71912

Buffed out during conversion, shallow original marking on right side
71913

[junkbug]

There is a modern cottage industry in producing these things for sale in Afganistan, to USA service personel, as they are still considered antiques, and can be legally returned to the USA. To do this, they need bogus dates, before 1898, which most have. Today, the Darra Pass is still a center of gunmaking, everything from bogus Arabian matchlocks to functioning AK-47s. They would blue it the same way you would try to blue a gun, if you wanted to blue it in your garage or basement.

Yours seems to lack the pre 1898 date, still it was bought in bulk by Century and imported as a "modern" firearm, but with much less scrutiny than a more modern military arm. I doubt the BATF really cares if Century is not accurate on the country of manufacture for these single shot rifles.

Try to cold blue the damaged area. It may be the way it was blued originally.

PS : That rifle did have grooves cut into the bore. Just a really sloppy job. Just like the tinker of old, once the wagon or truck carring the work is out of sight, the resonsibility for craftsmanship vanishes.

[30calflash]

Ross Seyfried did a column years back on an 88 Mauser that the rifling was 'gone' and most folks wrote it off. Carefully crafted handloads got it to shoot less than 2 MOA.

Another time Veral Smith said he had an Enfield with a bad barrel, that the rifling could be measured, but not seen. Less than a thou from bore to groove difference. He said it was from the Cordite erosion. A custom mold cast bullet was used to get it to shoot 2" groups at 75 yards. It was a double rifle IIRC.

If a gunsmith deems it safe to shoot do so with a reasonable load. If it is not safe it doesn't matter what shape the bore is in.

[nekshot]

Dr.bill, I don't want to be a smart aleck but someone has been shooting that gun and it didn't blow apart. I personally would go to black powder with it rather than trailboss as it can spike up preassure real fast. I do love trailboss but be careful. I personally believe you got a shooter, you simply might have to go a differant direction than you planned. This would make for a good project gun to reblue yourself. All is not lost simply enjoy the challenge!
nekshot

[junkbug]

Good read from another forum.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1109-Khyber-Pass-amp-Similar-Forgeries-and-a-failure

[nekshot]

junkbug, that is a good read. However they all seemed to be shooting old war ammo and there is no shortage of the inconsistances of that stuff. I think doctorbill is talking of reduced cast loads and while I am not very smart I do believe we are comparing apples to oranges on this deal. I have no bone in this other than to encourage doctorbill to not get discouraged and and look for something constructive. I think most of us old guys are smart enough to discern the differance between factory loads and wimpy cast loads. If I would have listened to the naysayers I never would have built the double rifle I did which works great based on responsible loadings for what it is.
nekshot

[junkbug]

I would have mixed feelings abouy shooting that gun. As I said earlier, I probably would go for it with a cast bullet and 15 to 16 grains of 2400. The last link was more for the pictures, and other links than anything else.

Personally, if I bought that off gunbroker, and it was represented as an English made gun, I would be talking to the seller. If that seller refused to do anything about it, then yea, I would probably want to shoot it. But doing so is not without risk. The metal used in that gun is really an unknown.

Good luck Dr. Bill.

[gnoahhh]

If all else fails, one can resort to soaking the bore with stronger ammonia (the real McCoy, not the drug store household cleaner). An hour or two in the bore (filled, and stoppered at both ends), will dissolve any bullet jacket fouling that may be there. BUT, for pete's sake, do it outside AND wear a suitable respiratory mask. One whiff of that stuff will knock you out cold- or worse (ask me how I know). Follow up with fresh water flushing and the usual water displacing/rust inhibiting compounds. I brought a few old '03 Springfield barrels back from the dead with the stuff after I read about the old riflemen using it in Phil Sharpe's book. But I can't emphasize enough to treat ammonia with the utmost respect. It is truly a last resort.

[DoctorBill]

I was pretty bummed out by this thing, but a knowledgeable in guns friend said,
"Wouldn't you be surprised if it shot a 3" group at 100 yards?"

Also, the comments here lead me to be less down on it.

Yes - I am still getting a LOT of copper out with Wipe-Out-Patch-Out !

SOMEBODY has been shooting this baby ! One heck of a lot !

The Black Powder comment sounds like good advice - I like BP anyway as it
doesn't beat my poor old 70 year old shoulder to pieces !

I have two kinds of cold bluing - Birchwood Casey "Perma Blue" and Brownells
"Oxpho-Blue".

Also, I believe I read somewhere that the British contracted with some INDIAN
manufacturers to make Martini-Henrys and Enfields for the British Army in India.
Maybe to arm the Sepoy's and Gurkha's with cheaper at home varieties ?

I wonder if those markings on the Receiver are not of Indian origin ?

The wood stock looks quite nice and appears to have been shellacked.
I haven't gotten to the stock yet - now that I buggered the metal, I might as well
bugger the stock....it is not a good antique anyway unless you like fakes.

http://s19.postimg.org/k3oskh3c3/Receiver_Markings_Right.jpg

DoctorBill

[junkbug]

Looking at the picture of your muzzle, it seems like it could stand a light chamfering job, at the crown. Nothing serious, but it looks a tiny bit rough.

[DoctorBill]

I put "SHAPORI"+rifle in Google and got this !

http://milsurpshooter.net/reply/17211#.UaZ7Jfei3-s

"That'd be a Khyber Pass Lee-Enfield. Nope, they didn't just make Martini-Henry
and Martini-Enfield clones. "Shapori" was a common misspelling of "Ishapore."
Also note on the buttsocket the marking "SIHLE," another indicator of Khyber Pass
origin. It may indeed have original Lee-Enfield parts, but on the whole, these are
hazardous to shoot."

DoctorBill

If mine has been fired a lot...probably OK to shoot...with BP Loads, anyway.

[DoctorBill]

I just had a 'brilliant' idea.....a trick used by machinists to tell where parts
are rubbing together.

I have a jar of .309 Cast Bullets.
Tried one in the barrel and it required only light pushing to go thru.

Hmmmm....where it touched the 'so called lands' there was a slight scratch
on the slug....hmmmm...

I 'painted' another cast bullet with a Sharpie Pen and pushed it thru.

OMG - There are vestiges of rifling in there !

http://s19.postimg.org/mvcnotr8j/Rifling_Marks.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/yyhzce2ar/More_Rifling_Marks.jpg

DoctorBill

[EDG]

It would interesting to see if the barrel is actually threaded to the receiver.

[DoctorBill]

OK...EDG....yes the barrel is threaded to the receiver.....

http://s19.postimg.org/ic0f3b9cz/Threads_A.jpg

That is ATF all over the metal. The metal corrodes REALLY fast !

BTW - I wonder if those threads have any relation to the actual
Martini-Enfield (UK) threads per inch etc ?

I may be FOS, but that metal workmanship ain't bad for a "Khyber-Pass"
backstreet workshop ! I got's a REAL Martini-Henry 577-450 and that looks
IDENTICAL in workmanship to it....! See next pic.

http://www.mynetimages.com/975852d74e.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com)
Never mind the question mark.

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

British service Martini rifles condemned as too badly worn for economical repair were sold off to civilian gunmakers. Many were converted to sporting rifles or shotguns. So long as the military caliber was not retained these could be bought and sold freely.
The barrel of the .450 rifles sold off was cut near halfway through just in front of the receiver by a hacksaw.
It was later found that some of these had been put back into firing condition by Indian or Pakistani rebels by silver brazing a semicirculur plug into the saw cut.
I would not have wanted to fire one of those.

This does bring up the possibility of real British made Martini actions being scrubbed of all markings by gun dealers who wished to hide the true origin and stamped with other markings to please the end users.

Shapuri appears to be a common last name in India
Shapur I is also an Iranian monarch.
Couldn't find anything else on this name.

Besides copied or rebuilt surplus rifles British firms such as BSA sold military grade firearms to various princes and warlords throughout the region.

PS
Cupro-nickel fouling can resemble a polished steel surface. Its common for cupro-nickel to build up several thousandths of an inch deep and fill in grooves of rifling.

[DoctorBill]

Multigunner - MOST interesting !
Can you tell me where you found out about this ? !

I showed the rifle to my machinst friend, Gary, and he thinks that it is quite nice and
thinks that I should not worry about any exploding of the rifle since it has been shot
quite a lot in the past.

The barrel looks STRONG as far as he is concerned and if ANYONE would know - he would.

All the receiver parts look WELL MADE and well machined.

He also thinks that it will probably shoot well. The crown doesn't look bad to him.

So - I will continue to brush it with the 45 cal SS Brush with various solvents and
do so until the clean out patch after brushing does not yield that brown-black krap.

BTW - I was told that a solvent that works well to remove this residue is Turpentine.....
so the Martini-Enfield "Fake" is soaking - standing up with a rubber stopper in the receiver end.

I'm really hoping there are some grooves and lands that eventually show up....

DoctorBill

[koehlerrk]

Interesting story.... Now if all else fails, you can always get it bored out to 410 and have a sweet little bolt-action shotgun! Apparently that was a known conversion over in England... my uncle acquired one years ago, it was the first 410 I ever shot, and I was always impressed with how it handled.

[DoctorBill]

After 12 hours soaking in Turpentine followed by 5x in/out 45 cal SS Brush followed by a rolled
up 1/2 Kleenex wad, I got this compared to about a minute with 70% Rubbing Alcohol:

http://s19.postimg.org/518fffacj/Turps_vs_Rubbing_Alc.jpg

So - Rubbing Alcohol still seems best and there is STILL a massive amount of KRUD
coming out of that rifle's barrel.

Being a Chemist, I could throw ALL my saved Kleenex Plugs in Nitric Acid and after
a day, pour off the acid from the Cellulose and see what metal ions I have in there.

http://www.lahc.edu/classes/chemistry/arias/Lab1QualAnaF11.pdf

I would obviously find Copper (Cu), Iron (Fe) and Lead (Pb)....but what else ? Maybe Nickel (Ni),
Chromium (Cr), Cobalt (Co) and Manganese (Mn).

What I would like to know is - what is gluing all that together into a HARD brick-like residue ?

DoctorBill

PS - Just found this....http://www.freefictionbooks.org/books/m/23389-manual-for-noncommissioned-officers-and-privates-o?start=11

[Multigunner]

Multigunner - MOST interesting !
Can you tell me where you found out about this ? !

DoctorBill

Picked up from many articles over the years. The main article dealt with handloading and sporting rifles in British possessions of the 19th and early 20th century.
For awhile the British allowed no components that could be used to reload military cartridges to cross the borders of colonies or possessions that had a insurgent situation going on.
Rules changed over the years.

BSA manufactured contract Enfield rifles sold to foreign governments and kingdoms show up now and then.

Commercial conversions of the Martini rifles show up now and then, and there where Martini rifles built in Belgium as well.

[texassako]

What I would like to know is - what is gluing all that together into a HARD brick-like residue ?

It is probably layer upon layer of alternating powder and jacket fouling. It is hard to get out because different substances work best for each. If it has cupro-nickel jacket fouling as mentioned above, it will really be stuck in there. Strong hardware store ammonia should help with removing that.

[Japlmg]

Sorry Dr. Bill, you bought a wall hanger.
It is a totally fake Martini.
It is up to you if you want to shoot it or not.
But I would not waste another minute on it.
Gregg

[uscra112]

Might try Barnes BC-10, which is ammonia and ethylene glycol n-butyl ether, per the label. Took an amazing amount of crud out of a bore for me, and pretty quickly, too. It is an ammonia compound, so you can't leave it to soak.

[DoctorBill]

I took gnoahhh's advice and plugged the breech end with a rubber stopper and
filled the barrel with ammonia (NH3 - from Lowes) and soaked it for 1.5 hour, poured it
out and ran the SS Brush down the barrel.

OMG - the brush was VERY difficult to push and pull ! Means something resisted.
I figured - GOOP. Softened it up and the Brush wires dug into it....

The Kleenex plug came out even more filthy that ever before.
Rinsed and brushed with Rubbing alcohol and got my 'normal' amount.

So, back to the Ammonia - it is soaking as I write this.

Most of the 'Copper' Cleaners reek of ammonia, so I am not worried that
it will hurt the steel uscra112. Wipe-Out-Patch-Out reeks of NH3
and they suggest an overnight soak for recalcitrant residues.

More as it happens.

BTW - Japlmg - the rifle may very well be a true Martini-Enfield made from
UK discarded parts or 'wiped' by Pakistani or Afghan people for resale to
various 'groups', as it were.
In any case - I have a great fondness for Martini's...my own bent...personal.
My machinist guru thinks that that rifle is well made as far as strength goes.
I am not a total 'purist', so if I can get a reasonable grouping at 100m, I will
be fairly satisfied - not as much as if it were 'kosher', but happy with it.

DoctorBill

Later - a 3 hour 2nd Ammonia soak didn't give me much 'stuff' - guess it is time to
alternate to a different solvent for a while - then back to Ammonia....

Like peeling an onion with boxing gloves on !

[Green Lizzard]

doc i have had a couple of old turks like that, a little steel wool wrapped around a brush didnt seem to hurt anything but the fouling

[Multigunner]

The warnings against filling the bore with ammonia based solvent and letting it set overnight or longer are due to a corrosive action that takes place at the interface of solvent and air.

The U S Army used high ammonia solvents mixed onsite to clean up excessive cupro-nickel fouling.
To avoid a "tideline" of corrosion in the bore they plugged the chamber then stretched a rubber tube over the muzzle. They poured enough solvent down the tube to partly fill the tube as well as the bore so no air could get to it.

There's likely to be pitting under the metal fouling.
When I tried cleaning up a Krag carbine bore many years ago the Cupro-nickel fouling broke loose from the steel and came up out of the grooves in long solid strips. The grooves under the fouling were heavily pitted. I traded that Krag off at what seemed to be a very nice profit, and of course I now wish I had not done so.

[nekshot]

DoctorBill I am glad you are making headway and it always is fun anticipating what the barrel really has after all clean. And by the way I am amazed at the expierence, knowledge and advice some people can give with out handling a firearm or seeing it!

[DoctorBill]

nekshot - yes..but that is part of interacting with people ! I run into it everywhere...
It just depends on the motives and what people want or like.
I am not in the position to be a 'perfectionist'. Others with a lot of money can afford to be.

This rifle has a story to tell, just like all my other 23 MilSurp "beauties" that I've
accumulated....just maybe a bit more convoluted.

Multigunner - Would it not be a neat thing, indeed, this if some strip of fouling "peeled"
off the grooves ! Never heard of such a thing.....I can only hope !

Being a chemist, I am trying to figure out how to attack this fouling or residue.

If Ammonia gets to it and Ammonia is Basic (like Lye but not nearly as strong) and is also
a "Chelator" which means it "surrounds" metal ions in a cage,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelator
then maybe alternating back and forth to an acid chelator followed by a basic chelator
might give the stuff a left hook followed by a right hook, as it were. Beat it to death.

Citric Acid (the acid of Lemons) is a weak acid and a very good chelator. You can buy it in
the grocery store in the canning section for keeping fruit from darkening like peaches do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid
Scroll down to "Cleaning and chelating agent" - Citric Acid is used in de-scaling cleaners.
Scroll even further down and it mentions EDTA - the BEST Chelator (I have some!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylenediaminetetraacetic_acid

I know enough about this to add Ammonia to Citric Acid and get BOTH chelators into one
solution. One neutralizes the other (Acid plus Base). EDTA is a weak acid.
I might try neutralizing THAT with Ammonia for a triple whammy.

So I made a solution by mixing both Citric Acid and Ammonia and it is in the barrel right now.

If it works well - I could patent it....if not...well - you'll witness my failure. We'll see.

I heard that Coca Cola works well for rust removal (dilute Phosphoric Acid)....I have some of that.
Gelled it is called "Naval Jelly"......the Navy likes it.

DoctorBill

http://www.clubhotrod.com/shop-talk/49844-rust-removal-citric-acid.html

https://www.google.com/search?num=30&newwindow=1&site=&source=hp&q=citric+acid+rust+removal+solution&oq=citric%2Bacid%2Brust&gs_l=hp.1.3.0i30l7j0i8i30l3.1464.7443.0.12412.16.1 6.0.0.0.0.208.2256.4j11j1.16.0...0.0...1c.1.15.hp. w0rXlKAZSQQ

There goes any idea of patenting it....
http://www.google.com/patents/US5490947

[Scharfschuetze]

This has been and interesting thread to follow. Like most, I've had a few barrels challenge me over the years, but nothing like your issues Doctor. Good luck.

[hickstick_10]

Could you take a picture of the markings on the side of the barrel over the chamber? Theres something different about the contour of the barrel in the area where the "E" is stamped and there should be some stamping on the side of the barrel near the barrel stub.

[DoctorBill]

I have already taken pics of those marks but they are not good enough -
I'll do that again tomorrow with a Jeweler's Loupe.

Hard to get in good focus and proper lighting....here is what I had taken.

http://s19.postimg.org/syza5untv/Receiver_Markings_Right_Brl.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/or4hx3meb/Receiver_Markings_Left.jpg

Can you tell anything from those...?

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

nekshot -


Multigunner - Would it not be a neat thing, indeed, this if some strip of fouling "peeled"
off the grooves ! Never heard of such a thing.....I can only hope !


Actually metal fouling breaking loose like it did on my Krag is not a good sign at all. The only reason it broke loose like that was because the bore surface under it was completely eaten away, the cupronickel fouling had nothing left to hold onto.

I have had something similar happen when cleaning a friends BSA SMLE rifle.
In that case the patch on jag stuck tight and it took a lot of coaxing before it came free.
When the jag finally came out there was a tightly curled roll of metal fouling hung up in the patch.
When unrolled it was a super thin strip of cupronickel metal fouling about one inch long, black on one side and polished mirror bright on the other. It was slightly more narrow than the groove it came out of.
I could find no sign of corrosion in the grooves. In this case the metal fouling held tight by carbon fouling (the blackened side) had not allowed moist air to get under it, or oil had penetrated under the fouling to seal the steel from moist air.

[hickstick_10]

I was hoping to see some british proof marks over the chamber, usually in the martini enfields there are proof marks and the pressure amount on the side of the barrel over the chamber, very similar if not identical to whats on the lee enfields. Also look for a stamp with "BNP" somewhere, it will signify "british nitro proof"

This gun doesn't have it, the barrel contour is also different from my LSA martini enfield. I would be inclined to say this is one of those made in a country with lots of sand.

But if it shoots good, hey its a good buy.

[Multigunner]

Wonder if this rifle came from Nepal. The arsenal there had tons of old British military style rifles, some were copies of British rifles made locally and some from foreign sources like Belgium.

[DoctorBill]

Question to anyone who has this 303 rifle conversion - is your barrel funnel shaped as
the original M-H was ?
i.e. the bore is larger in front of the cartridge and tapers down to the nominal bore
diameter about 10" to 12" behind the muzzle ?

My Martini-Enfield Khyber Pass Kopy is obviously tapered (worn or on purpose) like
that - when slugging the barrel, I get resistance for the first 10" - 12", then the slug
falls thru the rest of the way.
The .577-450 was designed and made that way - Battlefield variability in manufacturer's cartridges.

http://s19.postimg.org/3zgmful2b/Henry_Rifling_Section_of.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

While running a SS Brush in and out of this barrel and filling and emptying it with
various solutions and running endless patches thru it - I get bored....

To keep from going bananas, I play mental games or think of all sorts of things.

I was wondering how much weight or mass of "stuff" there could be inside of the
barrel to remove.

The rifled portion of the barrel is 26 inches long (mol). The bore is .310 inch.
The grooves are 0.5 of the inside area of the barrels.

Bore dia x pi x length = area of inside of the barrel x 1/2 (goove area) = area of residue.

0.310" x 3.15159 (π or pi) x 26" x 0.5 = 12.5 square inches of residue material.

If that is 0.004" thick that is 12.5" x 0.004" = 0.05 cubic inch of residue.

If you have ever polished some metal thing, you will know how long it takes
to remove even 0.001" of metal - imagine a 2" x 6" piece of metal...steel.

I would hope that the residue inside there is softer than the steel in the protruding lands....

DoctorBill

PS - The Citric Acid/Ammonia solution didn't seem to get me any more residue out
than Rubbing Alcohol or just plain Ammonia.....I bet Cat Urine would zap it !
Here kitty kitty......!

I may have lost it !

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Anybody that would intentionally put cat urine in a rifle bore probably puts used kitty litter on top of their alloy to prevent oxidation, and to add to the ambiance of the room. P. U. :kidding:

I don't know if I would fire full strength J-word loads through a Nepalese/ Khyber Pass made gun, but yours looks like it should be okay with normal cast boolit loads.

Good Luck,

Robert

[gnoahhh]

Maybe we should get a relay team together to take turns helping Bill push that brush in and out of his heavily fouled bore.

[DoctorBill]

Got some of this stuff today to try out.

Look how it comes in a bottle within a bottle !
Says don't get it on your skin.....YES ! Rubber gloves required....ouch.
Almost impossible to use w/o rubber gloves on.

http://s19.postimg.org/rcsg3l5b7/Butch_s_Bore_Shine.jpg

The barrel has some in it now - soaking.

DoctorBill

PS - My cat didn't want to cooperate !

[DoctorBill]

Has anyone reading this used Butch's Bore Shine ?

I got a small amount on my thumb and it burns.....for hours.

I don't want to get into trouble legally, but if I use it again it will be
with rubber gloves on and OUTSIDE ! OMG !
Has 1,2,4 - trimethylbenzene in it. http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/f_trimet.txt
I am a Chemist, been around NASTY stuff and this zapped me - just maybe 2 ml only
one a patch and a drop or less on my thumb !

I'm not knocking this preparation, but be careful around it. I had a bad reaction to it....
dizzy (more than I normally am !) and some nausea. I guess I'm just a wussy.
Now I see why they sell it like that - a bottle within a bottle.

Two Hours later - Five SS Brush strokes and ran a Kleenex wad thru - almost zip
came out of the barrel !

Back to Rubbing Alcohol, Ammonia and WO-PO and Sweet's 7.62.
Butch's felt like getting Paint Stripper on my skin - hurts.

http://s19.postimg.org/vnpy1ikv7/Butch_s_Bore_Shine_Bottle.jpg

I think it is time to re-slug this barrel and see if I have exposed any grooves yet.

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

doc i know how handy you are (been reading your posts for a long time) i am surprised you havent whipped up one of them electric gizmos yet

[koehlerrk]

Yikes, Butche's sounds like it needs a hazmat label...

Other than that, looking forward to hearing how you made out with it.

[texassako]

Butch's and brass wool were what I used for my last few bore mining expeditions. It stings a little when it gets in the pores doesn't it? I think my years of washing down oilfield equipment with various chemicals kind of made me immune, but the third arm comes in handy.

[DoctorBill]

Well folks...I think I have to concede that this is a "Wall Hanger - Lookie ! Lookie !"
"Rifle".

I re-slugged it from the Muzzle - same .309 as before - no real rifling to be seen.

Gary, my machinist friend, asked why I don't slug it from the Receiver End ?
I told him I can't pound the bullet thru due to the enclosed, boxy receiver design.

Well....I sized a 357 lead cast bullet down to .323 and dropped it in the breech.
I then cut short pieces of dowel and tapped the slug in with a plastic mallet on the
end of a wrench held over the dowel - the wrench thru the receiver held on top of the
dowel and tapped on one end while I held the other end....is that clear ?

Anyway - the 323 slug met resistance right away and I beat on the wrench/dowel
until the dowel fractured (about 1 inch into the barrel after the end of the cartridge chamber),
then tapped the slug back out with a dowel from the muzzle end.....OMG !
The slug in the pic is .323" diameter after coming back out.

http://s19.postimg.org/5tg5bqkv7/Slugged_from_the_Breech.jpg

THAT is an attempt to rifle the barrel but looks like it was done with rocks and Khyber-Pass
Mountain Goat antlers ! Rude and Crude ! Uneven - rough.

So...not having a bore scope, I wondered just how far that 0.323 diameter went
down the barrel ? I took a .309" commercially Cast Bullet and dropped in in the breech.
Stopped 2 inches from the muzzle !

The .323 upper end would allow a whole lot of powder blast to go past the slug BEFORE the slug
would get to the .313" portion of the barrel and even up to the muzzle. !

After that, I dropped a .313" cast bullet in.....I measured where that 'caught' in the barrel
with a dowel.

Here is THE rifle as shown in the GunBroker Ad (true image) and where the various diameters
are as determined by where the cast bullets stopped when dropped in the breech.

http://s19.postimg.org/hju2t4dnn/K_P_Rifle.jpg

The .313 slug was then tapped down to the Blue arrow (easily) and knocked back out.
Barely discernible marks for almost non-existent 'lands'.

Based on those crude 'rifling' marks up just in front of the cartridge area, I think this thing
is unshootable. Time to re-blue where I caused the bluing to disappear and hang it on
the wall....

BTW - The pictures on the GunBroker ad do show the "Shapuri" stamp on the breech,
so I cannot hold it against the seller even though it was advertised as a Martini - Henry
303 converted rifle.
"Ignorance is expensive"......a $433 wall hanger (after Tax and shipping).

DoctorBill

My friend Gary thinks I should reload with .313 Cast bullets and shoot those.
I told him they'd hit that .309 muzzle and maybe the rifle would explode - he says 'rubbish' !
The bullet would swag down to 309 by elongating.
He thinks there may be enough 'rifling' in there to possibly shoot decently....somebody had
been shooting it - with copper jacketed slugs, even !

Wonder what a gunsmith would charge me to let me SEE in there with a bore scope ?

[Rojelio]

DoctorBill, why dont you try to find a surplus 303 Enfield barrel and install it on your action. You're a machinist now and should be able to handle the project. If not, you still have your machinist friend. Can't stand the thought of a wallhanger:lol:

[DoctorBill]

Rojelio - I have been thinking of that.....even looked in SarCo and Numrich.....none available in this
Obama climate. Everything is being sucked up by folks wanting to get rid of firearms....

Even old cheap Lee Enfields are going for hundreds of dollars now....used to be less than $100 !

If I could do that - which model L-E would I want to put on there - which Mark, etc...?
What is the L-E 303 barrel's thread size at the Receiver ?

I'd get THIS barrel re-bored and re-chambered except that it costs about $500 to do that and
the metal is probably from some old Khyber Pass railroad rail !

I'd rather spend that money on a 577 Snider....or a Spencer..or a Sharps....or a....

Those old sayings..."Gilding a Sow's Ear" .... "Throwing good money after bad"....
If the Stock and Action were real Martini, maybe it would be worth it...but it is ALL fake.


DoctorBill

[truckjohn]

Yes.... Good... Thinking sane thoughts now...
It is what it is.... You might find that a "New" barrel wouldn't even fit on the receiver threads... They are likely hand cut and hand fitted....

What you *Could* do is to have it re-bored to 35 caliber all the way down... then have a set of Wildcat dies made up and shoot 35/303 wildcats in it... Sure hope the action really is stout and well enough made to handle it.... and this probably also classifies within the category of "Throw good money after bad" - as you still have a basically worthless Khyber Pass Martini Knockoff of dubious integrity....

I would personally have your Machinist buddy perform some hardness and surface hardness tests on the receiver and breech block... If I found that the receiver was Case Hardened with a soft steel core AND if I found that the Breech block was tightly fitted into recesses into the receiver (Like on a "Real" Martini..) rather than putting all the recoil force on the breech block pin - I would likely feel fine about shooting it.... with reduced loads.... The receiver will stretch before it cracks and you will know when the headspace opens up like crazy.......

So... The only thing you haven't done at this point is to use an Electronic Bore Cleaner.. which in my mind is really the best direction to go.... Especially if you are pulling out Cupro-nickel jacket fouling.... It will eat that stuff and at least you will strip it back to bare steel.... THEN you will know if it has real rifling to the muzzle or if it's just a mess of a wall hanger barrel....

You may actually have rifling in there - but the 8mm bore + 303 bullets = MASSIVE jacket fouling everywhere.... You may find that 8mm cast shoots just fine and you are happy... Makes me wonder what a fired case measures.. especially in the case neck?

If the chamber neck is big enough to take 8mm cast... Check out a rifle boring service and have that barrel opened up to 8mm all the way down... Then - you can at least shoot it... Have them stamp the barrel something like 8mm/303 wildcat or some such...

Thanks

[Multigunner]

The early marks of .303 with 215 gr bullets of various types and Cordite Mk1 propellent (58% nitro) were rated at 33,000 CUP. That was by the side piston pressure gun with piston about halfway of the case body rather than the Base crusher pressure guns used in later years.
MkVII ammo using Cordite MTD on the other hand generated 45,400 CUP as measured by U S Ordnance piston type pressure guns.

Most non Cordite commercial loads that duplicate the MkVI cartridge are listed at around 39,000 CUP or less.

Make sure the base of the chamber is not "cordworn" out of the round by use of the pull through with the wire gauze patch that they used to clear away cupronickel fouling.
From the looks of the bore that's very likely.

[Rojelio]

You could keep your eye on fleabay, gunbroker, and auction arms and something might come up.

According to my information Martini Enfield threads are 1.00 major diameter and .70 length of threaded shank, 14 v threads/in. Lee Enfield is .997 major dia.,.687 length and 14 v threads/in.

Sounds close enough to make it work.

Now if yours really is a kyber pass made action, there is no telling what the threads are. I rebarreled 2 Nepalese Francotte actions and the threads were both 12 v threads/in. but, the major diameters of the threads were different.

Anyway, I wouldn't make it a wallhanger. Just put it on the back burner 'till you come up with a barrel. I've got projects that have been ongoing for years. It's not like you need it right away to defend your homestead.:kidding:

[Multigunner]

If worse came to worst bore it out to .410 gauge.

I'd never mess with a correct Martini rifle, either Enfield or Henry, but an action like this I'd consider using for a custom project. If the breech block is wide enough perhaps a 20 gauge barrel could be fitted or a 28 gauge.
If the action held up to even the old Black powder .303 cartridge or the early marks of Cordite cartridges it should handle the 45-70 , 50-70, or the longest BP cartridge that you could load and extract easily.
I'd not bother with keeping the old barrel unless it was to rebore to .410.
A .40-80 rebore might be nice.

Still this barrel might have some surprises left in it and handle medium power cast loads with some degree of accuracy.

Looks good enough for a motion picture prop or for a reenactor group.
They had such a hard time finding operational Martini rifles when they made the movie "Zulu" that some of the troops further back in the firing line were using Long Lees.

[junkbug]

I would be tempted to cast a .323 bullet out of fairly soft lead, with a light load (less than 16 grains of 2400) and give it a try, maybe even with the first few with the rifle tied to a tire. I have shot .338" cast bullets out of m95 steyrs with generous throats and around .331-333" groove diameters. As you say, it sure looks like t was fired, admittedly with undersized jacketed bullets in all likelyhood.

Even more tempting would be a plinker load with sized 000 buckshot, a drop of alox lube, and a very light powder charge.

After all that effort, I would have to shoot it, even with just buckshot and a light charge of Red Dot, or Bullseye.

[DoctorBill]

Someone here has offered to sell me one of these, but a REAL one.

This sort of do-overs can rapidly climb in price and get to be a lot more
than originally intended.

If I find a Lee Enfield Barrel, I'll have to mill or file out the extractor grooves
to operate it in this Receiver. My cleaning Operations dissolved off the "Bluing"...

http://s19.postimg.org/sc0tzp7vn/Extractor_Grooves.jpg

How difficult is it to unscrew a barrel ? Never have done it....

Here are two Lee Enfields that I own - Both No. 4's

http://s19.postimg.org/8itbkqjvn/My_Two_Lee_Enfields.jpg

Unfortunately one was sporterized, but the price was $80, so I had to grab it....
I put the Black Nylon Stock on it...sold everywhere for $50 - looks cool...better'n the
bubba'ed one it had on it.
On the left side of the receiver, it has "No4MK1/2 BG17598 F 55 FTR<1"
On the strap it has "BG 1943"

The other is my prize...Full Military Mk 1* - made by Savage in the USA for the UK.
It still has the Rack Number (Barracks Number?) in white on the stock (24).
On the Left side of receiver middle is

"US Property 5 No 4 MK1* 95C3715"
Left side of receiver by barrel "303 British United Kingdom 1AC ALEX UA"

What nomenclature do they use in England for Rack ? The word "Barracks" comes from England.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number13.pdf US Unclassified Brit Mil Terminology 217 pages !

DoctorBill

[Four Fingers of Death]

That stamp looks like Ishapore with the I missing.

PS, 20 mins tops with Sweets before you clean it out. I have been using Ballistol Oil in the barrels when storing my rifles between range shoots and after a week or so, I always get a blue patch, no matter how hard I cleaned it previously. Won't harm the barrel either. Klever, the company that produces Ballistol used to market a product called Robla Klever. Man, that stuff was designed to soak a plugged bore. I treated a Jungle Carbine that had an absolutely blackbore. It went from black to white metal in one application. Can't seem to find it anymore. The Klever Solo Mil would appear to do the same job.

[gnoahhh]

I wouldn't look at the money spent on the subject rifle as being completely wasted. Look how much of a learning experience it has been.

[ironhead7544]

It seems to me that the Enfield rifle was made with at least 2 different types of rifling. One early on was different from conventional rifling and was a failure. The .303 MH rifles were made for the foreign troops of questionable dedication. Better they have single shot rifles. A search for these may answer your questions.

If the barrel is made of good steel, it could be rebored to 35/303.

I just did a quick search. Look up Metford rifling. At first look it appears worn out. It was designed for ease of cleaning with black powder. Smokeless, at the time, was hot and very corrosive which would wear out the throat just as you found. When the 303 conversions were made they probably used the Metford barrels they had on hand. Modern primers and powders will not hurt Metford rifling. Looks to me a new barrel would be great for cast bullets, if you could find one.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Make a good black powder plinking rifle.

[DoctorBill]

Being tired and bored with this brush 3-4 times a day, soak and brush, over and over....
methinks it is time to try the "Electrolytic Cleaning Method" previously alluded to by Texassako:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/

Been busy with "life" which tends to grab one and RUN...so I had to 'take care of business'.

Now back to the fun stuff.....got to find a straight 'negative electrode' rod.
Possibly some small "O"-Rings would act as insulators for the Rod.

Two vols Water / one vol White vinegar / one vol Ammonia.

As to re-bluing...I believe that it would be better if I just strip ALL the
old bluing off (with Lime-Away) and re-blue the whole ball of wax.

That way I won't be mixing shades of old bluing and new bluing leaving
a Krappy Khyber Kopy looking mess. They had done a Good Job of Bluing.

I still hold out hope for some grooves to appear, but not much....

Later in the day...here is my "plan" - go to the Hobby shop tomorrow and
buy several 1/8" (0.125") Piano Wire (Straight and Stiff) and stop by Lowe's and
obtain some 1/8" I.D. O-Rings.

This should make an inner negative electrode with the O-Rings every 6" or so to
keep it from touching the barrel but allow liquid to move up & down the barrel.

I will push the wire into the center of the OO Rubber Stopper to center it in
the barrel.

The Electrolyte I can experiment with.....The Published concoction first.
Maybe Ammonium Citrate or Ammonium Edate (EDTA neutralized with Ammonia).
Maybe just Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate).

The latter is used for electrolytic Rust Removal for machining and welding.
https://www.google.com/search?num=30&newwindow=1&site=&source=hp&q=electrolytic+rust+removal+washing+soda&oq=electroytic%2Brust%2Bremoval&gs_l=hp.1.3.0i13i30l10.144.5304.0.9719.17.17.0.0.0 .0.305.2814.1j11j4j1.17.0...0.0...1c.1.16.hp.C3zp9 vdJQLo

I have whole bunch of plug in chargers for phones, toys, radios, players, etc....
I can put resistors in series and control the current and set it with my VOM to
whatever milliamps I want. 25 to 50 ma ought to do it - more is not always better.

Maybe changing the polarity once in a while might not 'shake' the stuff loose ?

DoctorBill

My wife asked me, "Why are you STILL sitting around wasting time ?"

I replied, "Because I'm not finished yet...."

[DoctorBill]

Here is the 1/8" Piano Wire Rod with O-Rings on it...
http://s19.postimg.org/b2y56bm77/Rod_O_Rings.jpg

the rifle held upright

http://s19.postimg.org/eb2mjd8gz/Rifle_Bungee_Corded_to_Barrel.jpg

and the 'system' running off of two flashlight batteries pulling 100 - 150 ma.

http://s19.postimg.org/66uiemm1v/Electrolysis.jpg

I am switching the electrodes *** to Neg periodically....I know.....!

DoctorBill

PS - these systems are (were) sold by Midway - Outer's makes (made) them

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/243419/outers-foul-out-3-bore-cleaning-system

[Green Lizzard]

great job doc

[texassako]

They are not available anymore, discontinued last year(check your link). I looked for one about a month after the stock dried up at the retailers, but then found out it was not to hard to make one. I want to see some after pics if it uncovers something good.

[DoctorBill]

I hate to say this, since many want to know what the electrolysis yielded,
but I got very little residue out after a couple of hours of it with Sodium Carbonate.

I did try electrolytic Cleaning with my Ammonium Citrate solution prior to the
Sodium Carbonate and got about as much residue as I did by simple soaking.

I have not seen any 'blue' color from Copper for some time now.
If anything is covering the grooves, it doesn't have copper in it.

Getting tired, so I decided to wipe the bore out with ATF so it won't rust overnight.

Seeing the hideous barrel where the solutions had removed the Bluing, I decided to
see what this BROWNELL'S "OXPHO-BLUE" does.

I had figured that I would have to take off all the Bluing and then try to re-Blue it
or I'd get different shades of Bluing.

I wiped the barrel down with 91% Rubbing Alcohol and applied the OXPHO-BLUE
with a Q-Tip to the barrel at the front.

I was amazed at HOW WELL Brownell's OXPHO-BLUE re-blued the metal - quickly and
without different shades of bluing.

This stuff is absolutely amazing ! I've got the barrel and receiver back to what it looked
like when I got it - within a half hour !

You rub it on, wipe with a Kleenex and then rub with Steel Wool to burnish and it is done !
You can go back and deepen it, but I hardly needed to do that at all.
A rub down with ATF and the rifle looks really nice.

More later.

DoctorBill

[Four Fingers of Death]

What's ATF? I just know it is going to be something really simple and obvious.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Auto Transmission Fluid?

[DoctorBill]

Yes, Automatic Transmission Fluid.

I was told on several firearms Forums AND by my machinist friend that
ATF is a very good lubricant, rust preventative and DOES NOT HARDEN
with time as oil does...i.e. some old MilSurps have a sticky oil on them (NOT Cosmoline, either).

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-644595.html

http://www.grandpappy.info/itips.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/clean_lube.htm

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/general-firearm-discussion/71722-anyone-using-atf-fluid-place-gun-oil.html Couple of 'twits' on this forum!
"Excuse me while I put Break-Free in my transmission, and Hoppe's No. 9 in my windshield washer fluid reservoir." BSG 75

http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/tips-tricks-forum/1609-anyone-use-transmission-fluid-clean-guns.html

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/130312-atf-fluid-for-gun-lubricant/page2

So I use ATF now. Also a good fluid lubricant for the Lathe when cutting metal.

Why not ?...oil is used in gasoline combustion engines....so it obviously shouldn't be used in firearms....

I don't know why I am bothering to convince anyone to use ATF on their guns - I know I'll
catch a lot of criticism....I don't care....whatever turns your propeller.

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

doc i have been using it for years i also mix it with coleman fuel as a cleaning solvent

[DoctorBill]

Mixed with acetone 50:50 (has to be shaken) supposedly as good a Liquid Wrench.

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

DoctorBill,

Regarding the Oxphoblue, eleven or twelve years ago I built a 98 Mauser in .35 Whelen, using an Adams & Bennett barrel. I meant to have it done prior to going home on leave for deer season, but got busy at work and had no time to polish and rust blue the barrel. In desperation, I needed something to keep it from rusting to pieces while hunting, I used the Oxphoblue with no polishing of the barrel; thinking I could always go ahead and rust blue it later.

Guess what, I have been retired from the Navy for nine years now and the oxphoblued barrel still hasn't rusted. I do put a light coat of oil on it avery once in a while, but it has been very durable for me.

ATF is a major ingredient of Ed's Red bore cleaner, google it or search here for the directions.

Robert

[Multigunner]

Enfield rifles were cold blued, the formula may be found in some manuals.
They called it "Browning" a holdover from the pickeled steel process used on the Brown Bess muskets.

[DoctorBill]

I must say that this Khyber-Pass Kopy is one Nice Looking Rifle.

Going to make up some .313 Cast Bullet loads with Black Powder
and see
1. if it blows up
2. if it can hit anything at 100m
3. if I can get a grouping with it.....

Can someone do a Khyber-Pass Prayer ?

"May Allah be merciful !"

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

Been thinking on the appearance of the bore and it being tighter at the muzzle.
When a lead bullet or core is blown through It may require use of mercury to dissolve away all the lead stuck tightly in grooves.

Possibility of this rifle having once had a steel rod soldered (at the muzzle) in the bore to disable the rifle for drill use.

[Green Lizzard]

multi, i saw a smle like that, great idea i bet doc will jump on it

[DoctorBill]

Multigunner and Green Lizzard - What are you talking about.....welded in or soldered in ?
A small rod or a long rod...? A small rod might allow someone to try firing a round !

Besides - this is a Khyber-Pass Kopy...why would there have been a rod welded or
soldered into THAT ?!

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

Multigunner and Green Lizzard - What are you talking about.....welded in or soldered in ?
A small rod or a long rod...? A small rod might allow someone to try firing a round !

Besides - this is a Khyber-Pass Kopy...why would there have been a rod welded or
soldered into THAT ?!

DoctorBill

I'm not so sure its a Khyber Pass copy, at least not the run of the mill copy. The Khyber Pass copies usually have faked British markings rather than what looks to be a marking denoting use by a eastern kingdom. A copy but from a more respectable eastern gun maker like as not.
The rifle is obviously very old. Its possible it spent many years as a drill rifle at some cadet school after becoming obsolete.
Also many Khyber Pass rifles were sold to the British during WW2 to be used as drill or training rifles for Indian conscripts.
Pakistan's Police also bought up many Khyber Pass rifles, from the gun makers at Darra who put out very decent products, mainly to keep them off the market but also for their own use. The police issued these rifles raised sand about it and were later issued proper arsenal made rifles.

There's also the possibility of the rifle having been minimally deactivated under the old regulations with bore blocked full length by a steel rod secured at the muzzle. A lot of owners used solder rather than welding so the rifle could be reactivated.
The rifle may have been used as a motion picture prop, many British type muskets once used as props have shown up for sale in India.

Actually there's no end of possibilities for a rifle this old. It may have come from stores of confiscated weapons sold off by police.

A Cupronickel jacket stripped from the core near the muzzle would be ironed into the rifling by following shots. This has been observed with the old 220 gr .30 Springfield cartridge before they developed more secure jackets and cooler powders. It was also noted with the early .303 hollow point and Dum Dum bullets.
Just a suggestion, something to look for.

Also I've seen a few bores that were totally leaded up, the grooves filled in till it looked smooth bore. That level of leading was removed by plugging the bore at each end with a bit of mercury inside. They'd let the mercury roll back and forth in the bore till it bonded with the lead and it could then be cleared away.
That's an old gunsmith trick from early cartridge days.

[Green Lizzard]

i helped a friend with a smle and a carcano that had a plug of lead or solder in the last 3 or 4 inches of barrel no steel rod, the smle was marked as a drill rifle the carcano was not.

[DoctorBill]

Perhaps I should try the Mercury (Hg) thing....can you buy Hg from metal recyclers ?

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

i helped a friend with a smle and a carcano that had a plug of lead or solder in the last 3 or 4 inches of barrel no steel rod, the smle was marked as a drill rifle the carcano was not.
I remember someone on another board finding a No.4 rifle with muzzle plugged by solder.

Long ago I saw posts about Carcano rifles found at a yard sale in California with chambers roughly bored out. From the description I suspect these were altered to fire a theatrical blank cartridge of some sort, possibly old movie props since thousands of prop rifles were sold off by studios at the time.

Prop rifles used by MGM often have a cartouche to identify them. Rifles with studio marking have significant collector value.

Doc
Try a soldering iron tip in the groove at the muzzle first to see if it is lead or solder.

[DoctorBill]

I googled this
Mercury+lead+rifle+barrel
and found a ton of links on "How To" clean lead out of rifle and pistol barrels.

Try it...the "+" signs (no spaces) make Google find ALL FOUR words in each link and keeps the
gunk (junk) links from showing up.
https://www.google.com/search?num=30&newwindow=1&site=&source=hp&q=Mercury%2Blead%2Brifle%2Bbarrel&oq=Mercury%2Blead%2Brifle%2Bbarrel&gs_l=hp.3...2695.11790.0.14905.25.25.0.0.0.0.185.3 071.5j20.25.0...0.0...1c.1.16.hp.oyfAH2Of6a8

The only problem for most is to get some Mercury (Hg)....

Mercury VAPOR is what is poisonous - work with Hg outside - not inside.
Don't spill any inside - it immediately splatters into thousands of very tiny drops and
then evaporates into the poisonous vapor - makes one crazy - like me !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning

I used to coat pennies with it when I was in grade school....that is - PLAY with it !
My parents got me a Lead Soldier Casting Set when I was a little kid !
I used to cast toy soldiers and paint them with colors that came with the set.

I remember going to shoe stores and look at the bones in my feet on those old
X-Ray machines that put out terrible amounts of X-Rays before they became illegal.

They said Butter would kill you, so I ate Margarine all my life !
Now Margarine will kill you and you should eat Butter !

No wonder I'm a nut case ! Now Obama's wife says I should eat Broccoli !
Obama will kill me....not Mercury....

I bought some Mercury at a Yard Sale maybe 35 years ago (you can find ANYTHING at Yard Sales)
and it is somewhere in a box in my garage.....now to find it !

DoctorBill

[gew98]

I have a jug of mercury I have used for many years on helping to pulll lead form barrels. Sometimes it helps and sometimes it makes no difference. I have come across lots of old arms with intentionally plugged bores. When plugged my a mil/gov agency they rarely if ever plugged a muzzle and not the chamber as well. And quite often drilled a hole clear through the barrel as well.
When I was a kid a buddies dad had a nice Beretta machine pistol that had a lead filled bore , and I encountered a Thompson M1A1 like that. Those were bubba specials and made quite illegal later in time. I would venture trying the electrolysis method. If this rifle saw alot of old cupronickel Mk6 and Mk7 ball it can get fouled bad. I once had a steel tin dated 1947 of about 1200 rounds of 303 tracer made in china.I don't think it was communist china , anyhow it was fun stuff to shoot , though it did not trace anymore but made awesome red flashes when impacting steel targets. It all about runined I thought the No4 I was shooting it through and a jap 99 I used the pulled bullets in. Took me a month of sundays and soaks to get out the bullet jacket fouling from them.
As for khyber pass in origin...I'd think so too. Their copies run from art to dog dirt.

[gew98]

I remember someone on another board finding a No.4 rifle with muzzle plugged by solder.

Long ago I saw posts about Carcano rifles found at a yard sale in California with chambers roughly bored out. From the description I suspect these were altered to fire a theatrical blank cartridge of some sort, possibly old movie props since thousands of prop rifles were sold off by studios at the time.

Prop rifles used by MGM often have a cartouche to identify them. Rifles with studio marking have significant collector value.

Doc
Try a soldering iron tip in the groove at the muzzle first to see if it is lead or solder.

If the plug is made of babbit a soldering Iron won't melt it. I had at one time several gew98's that were stamped on the barrels "FOX STUDIOS" and they all had their chambers crudely reamed to accept US M1909 blanks. I salvaged what parts I could off of them and gave them away... Don't know a soul that would pay any kind of money for them then or now as they were well used and abused.
I rather doubt those carcanos were modified for blanks as the 6,5 & 7,35 rifles have a rather unique base to them with I'd wager no common US equivalent you could wildcat one from. A buddy whom did re-enacting of Russians back in the 80's bought a wad of 7,35 commercial carcano brass and a blank crimp die from CH tool & die and made his own 7,62x39 blanks as they were the only cases he found commonality of rim wiht the 7,62x39. He cut the rim off a 30/40 krag and made it a disc with no primer in it and it fit into the AK's muzz break and made a good hollywood blank adaptor. Oh those were the days.

[DoctorBill]

OK guys...give me the procedure for Mercury 'treatment' of the barrel.

How and for how long and what do you do after pouring out the Mercury ?

Does the lead dissolve or just get softer ?

Is Babbit Alloy soft ? Can I scratch it with an Iron wire ?

Any Solder or soft metal at the muzzle should be evident by being scratchable.....yes?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ALSO - please limit comments about Mercury being poisonous to ZERO !
I know that.
Even simple precautions are just fine when handling it....do it outside !

Don't eat BBQ and then suck your fingers afterward w/o washing them before.

Don't run with scissors, You don't tug on Superman's cape,
You don't spit into the wind, You don't pull the mask off that ol' Lone Ranger,
you don't mess around with Jim and you don't mess around with Mercury.....

Roman women used to use ground up Cinnabar (Red Mercuric Sulfide) as a rouge !

The used Lead Acetate (Sweet Sugar of Lead) to sweeten bad wine from their
conquered provinces who sent BAD wine to Rome to get back at the Romans !
The Romans weren't crazy....(Caligula)...they conquered half the known world !

DoctorBill

[Boz330]

The Australians modified a bunch of MH to make home guard guns during WWII by putting a #1 barrel and wood on them. It makes an attractive, IMHO, rifle. If you were to go that route I would keep the loads mild just in case that is a Kyber Pass receiver.
I bought a barrel with that in mind for a barrel I thought was toast but managed to get a mold that would fit the throat and shoot reasonable. The threads match right up but you would have to rechamber with a 303 reamer after fitting.

Bob

[DoctorBill]

I sure wish I knew more about this rifle than "SHAPURI" !

In preparation for you guys words of wisdom on using Mercury,
I started to clean the ATF out of the barrel so that the Hg can get
at the "Whatever".....and I could feel the patch rod rotating !

This old bugger has some rifling exposed now !

It is much less evident when the patch is wet versus when it is dry...

Very Interesting.....

If I don't hear from someone soon, I am just going to go ahead and do
maybe a hour of Mercury (Hg) treatment....outside.

Plan to put the Rubber Stopper in the Breech (block it from coming out
since Hg is very dense - 28.3 lbs/quart or 13.6 g/cc) and pour some in
the muzzle, hold a rubber patch of Inner Tube over it and rock it back
and forth.
Then after draining I'll SS Brush it 5x and run a Kleenex Wad down it.

I'm waiting for enlightenment......

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

sorry doc i just dont know about mercury i get in enough trouble around here just melting lead

[texassako]

I dug this out of Himmelwright's Pistol and Revolver Shooting(free e-book) for you. On using mercury to remove lead: "carefully remove all oil, cork up the opposite end of the barrel and fill with mercury, letting the latter remain in the barrel until the lead is removed."

[DoctorBill]

Well, here is what I did....I took the rifle out and buried it in the field next to my house.....









No - just kidding !

Fixed a OO Rubber Stopper in the Breech
http://s19.postimg.org/st0aaqgpv/Rubber_Stopper_Held_In_Place.jpg

Then I put some mercury in the barrel (maybe 5 ml ?) and held a piece of waxy film,
called Parafilm in Science Labs, over the muzzle and rocked the barrel back & forth
for maybe 10 - 15 minutes while on the back porch (outside). It gets boring....

Poured the Mercury into a plastic container - didn't see any mercury adhering
to the metal....and then ran a SS Brush in and out 5x.
Pushed a cloth down the barrel and didn't get anything much to show for
all that.

So I ran some Rubbing Alcohol down and started to see dark on the patch.

Long story short - I did all the old stuff AGAIN and got a considerable amount
of gray material - the color of Lead - out of the barrel.
http://s19.postimg.org/5stmyeiw3/More_Stuff_Out.jpg

That is a thin Lead (Pb) ingot there in the upper left. Same color as on
the patches.

One NEW thing - I tried putting some Steel Wool on the SS Brush and it did
dig in a lot more than before. I think it helped remove more material...
I can definitely feel the cleaning rod want to rotate when I move it in and out !

Here is a picture I tried to take of the Bore....
http://s19.postimg.org/guypwucyr/Rifling_Now.jpg

Looks great, but it is a imprint more than rifling....Still....???

So....perhaps the Mercury "softened" the lead surface....maybe.
I'll do it again tomorrow - this could go on into the next Presidential election
cycle ! I'm tired now....time to park my butt for the rest of the evening....

Besides - all that Mercury Poisoning is making my front teeth grow longer and
the hair all over me is growing out....I want to run thru the fields and howl....

DoctorBill

Just saw this post from texassako..I quote, "..remove all oil, cork up the opposite
end of the barrel and fill with mercury, letting the latter remain in the barrel until
the lead is removed."
UNTIL THE LEAD IS REMOVED ....? Any reference to the Time involved ?!
My Lord....that could be 12 or 24 or 48 hours or two weeks ?.....Holy Moley !

Also - "fill with Mercury..." I DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH MERCURY !

Mercury is EXPENSIVE.....now !

Isn't the Government GREAT - takes away ANYTHING worthwhile to do !
Soon, all you will be 'allowed' to do is sit in front of the TV and watch
Obama speeches.....or Hillary.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Lead and mercury! The greenies would have a huge cringe about that!

[DoctorBill]

Just phoned my friend who is a long time machinist and he doesn't think that
Mercury would hurt steel. Free metallic Mercury is a whole different thing than
Mercuric Salts from the old primers.

If both the Steel (Iron - Fe) and the Mercury (Hg) were free metals,
they couldn't do much except dissolve in one another (alloy or "amalgamate").

I have not seen anything about Mercury dissolving Iron.

So Manaña I will Plug the Breech again, put some Hg in the barrel and push in
my 1/8" piano wire to displace the Mercury to FILL the barrel up to the muzzle.
That way, I don't need to obtain a barrel full of Mercury !

Problem will be that steel will float in Mercury, so I'll have to hold the piano wire
down in there with some kind of clamp.

I'll be back......
http://s19.postimg.org/lxg1rmm8z/Ill_Be_Back_terminator.jpg

DoctorBill

[truckjohn]

You know that Vinegar will cut lead just fine.... right?

My Olde De-Leading trick was copper chor-boy pads + lots of Vinegar and maybe 1 drop of dish detergent.... I suppose if you really wanted to go crazy - you could try out stainless steel pads (Regular steel wool will pretty much turn to rust instantly....)

Be sure to wear rubber gloves - as the dissolved lead will absorb into your body pretty quickly this way....

I am still thinking that if I really wanted to fool with this rifle much more - I would be thinking about sending it out to a re-boring service and just have the barrel re-rifled....

Thanks

[texassako]

Just saw this post from texassako..I quote, "..remove all oil, cork up the opposite
end of the barrel and fill with mercury, letting the latter remain in the barrel until
the lead is removed."
UNTIL THE LEAD IS REMOVED ....? Any reference to the Time involved ?!
My Lord....that could be 12 or 24 or 48 hours or two weeks ?.....Holy Moley !

Also - "fill with Mercury..." I DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH MERCURY !

Mercury is EXPENSIVE.....now !


Well, the book was written in 1908 and that was all it said. It forms an amalgamate with the lead is the only other thing I have read. Do the two get used up to make an amalgamate, x amount of mercury to dissolve y amount of lead? Maybe that is why you need a bore full.

[DoctorBill]

truckjohn - Rebore ? Add $350 to the cost of it....

texassako - I doubt one needs to do that very often.
If so, then one needs to get a Butt Load of Mercury - or re-distill it.

I'm off to soak my Martini-Enfield Khyber Pass Kopy with Mercury for maybe 24 hours.....

Darn...I don't have enough Mercury to fill the barrel even with a 1/8"
rod even with a lot of Masking Tape on the rod.

Think I'll let 'er soak 6 hours, then put some inner tube rubber over the muzzle
and a strap clamp and invert it for overnight.

BTW - for those who think Ammonia will hurt the barrel - as my machinist friend
pointed out, refrigeration used Liquid Ammonia in steel pipes for over 50 years
in the past. The reason they went to Freon was that they couldn't use Copper
or Brass pipes (makes copper become brittle and crack) and Ammonia will kill
you if you inhale it....so leaks were BAD....otherwise Ammonia doesn't bother steel.

DoctorBill

[FLINTNFIRE]

Rebore on my 03 was $225 now it is a 375 whelan, my remington 742 bored to a 338-06 was also done for $225 , I know that 35-303 is listed on http://www.35caliber.com/ as one that he does , I was extremely satisfied with his work , now I have two that were gathering dust back out for shooting.
As for if it is worth it is a decision you make , I have another springfield 03 that is going to be bored , still deciding on if it is going to be a 35 whelan or one of the other choices.

[Rojelio]

Rebore on my 03 was $225 now it is a 375 whelan, my remington 742 bored to a 338-06 was also done for $225 , I know that 35-303 is listed on http://www.35caliber.com/ as one that he does , I was extremely satisfied with his work , now I have two that were gathering dust back out for shooting.
As for if it is worth it is a decision you make , I have another springfield 03 that is going to be bored , still deciding on if it is going to be a 35 whelan or one of the other choices.

Yep, if you count your time and material, you've probably already got $225 in that barrel.[smilie=1:

[Multigunner]

truckjohn - Rebore ? Add $350 to the cost of it....

texassako - I doubt one needs to do that very often.
If so, then one needs to get a Butt Load of Mercury - or re-distill it.

I'm off to soak my Martini-Enfield Khyber Pass Kopy with Mercury for maybe 24 hours.....

Darn...I don't have enough Mercury to fill the barrel even with a 1/8"
rod even with a lot of Masking Tape on the rod.

Think I'll let 'er soak 6 hours, then put some inner tube rubber over the muzzle
and a strap clamp and invert it for overnight.

BTW - for those who think Ammonia will hurt the barrel - as my machinist friend
pointed out, refrigeration used Liquid Ammonia in steel pipes for over 50 years
in the past. The reason they went to Freon was that they couldn't use Copper
or Brass pipes (makes copper become brittle and crack) and Ammonia will kill
you if you inhale it....so leaks were BAD....otherwise Ammonia doesn't bother steel.

DoctorBill
You should not need to fill the bore, instructions I've seen for the old lead cartridge barrels said only that you put some mercury in then with barrel plugged at each end you tilted the barrel to let the mercury roll back and forth in the bore.

Mercury soaks through most things. They used to filter mercury by straining it through leather.

Ammonia itself doesn't eat away steel, its when ammonia and air interface that a corrosive action takes place.

PS
Looks to me like any rebore of this barrel would require that the barrel be removed first, so having a new barrel made will probably cost less in the long run.

[DoctorBill]

Multi - it is the rocking of the barrel that is the rub !

Unless you have a rocker table, you would have to do that yourself.

I am not about to set outside and rock any rifle back and forth overnight.

That is why I waa trying to fill it - only have about a tablespoon full of Mercury.

I am about to hose clamp a piece of Inner Tube (Those are hard to find free !)
over the muzzle and invert it for 12 hours - been sitting upright for 5 hours.

I used to filter Mercury thru a wad of glass wool in a glass tube.
Been a long time since I messed with Mercury - times have changed for
the worse actually....we've lost a lot of freedom for a false security.

To stop Ammonia/air interfacing, add a few drops of oil on top of the ammonia.

DoctorBill

Mercury amalgamates with Lead, Copper and Nickel - so would be good to remove them !

http://webpages.charter.net/kwilliams00/bcftp/docs/mercury.htm

Hg does not amalgamate with Iron....but does "Attack" Aluminum violently. (?)

http://books.google.com/books?id=r7s0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=mercury+copper+amalgam+-dental&source=bl&ots=on_U_K9x0C&sig=aOyM0g2FDpjtMuujZaDoD5Cn9Z4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=boW4Ua-uIaiQigLe_4HwCg&ved=0CH8Q6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=mercury%20copper%20amalgam%20-dental&f=false

[Dale in Louisiana]

Just phoned my friend who is a long time machinist and he doesn't think that
Mercury would hurt steel. Free metallic Mercury is a whole different thing than
Mercuric Salts from the old primers.

If both the Steel (Iron - Fe) and the Mercury (Hg) were free metals,
they couldn't do much except dissolve in one another (alloy or "amalgamate").

I have not seen anything about Mercury dissolving Iron.


DoctorBill

I used to work in a facility that used TONS of mercury in one of its process units. Inventory to make up for losses was stored in steel bottles. Much of the process piping and equipment was steel. Mercury does not affect steel.

It will amalgamate with the lead quite freely. That's the process by which it works on leading: it amalgamates (dissolves) the lead and copper without affecting the steel.

dale in Louisiana
(Survivor of the de Nora mercury cell electrolysis process)

[FLINTNFIRE]

The cost of rebore is no higher . as I believe he takes the barrels off anyway, the total cost was 225 dollars , no additional charges , and I know he test fired both my rifles afterwards.
I took him each rifle , and they were done quite quickly, hopefully the mercury will clean your barrel out and you will not need any more work done.

[DoctorBill]

New information became available.

Rummaging thru my Garage Looking for the proper size hose clamp to cover
the muzzle with inner tube rubber, I ran across a "Lead Test" which I had
from several years ago.

The Khyber Rifle has been soaking with Mercury in the barrel for about 16 hours.

I decided to try the lead test on those gray metallic residue patches that
I've been getting out of the rifle before I drained the Mercury out.

Long story short - That stuff IS NOT LEAD on the patches !

http://s19.postimg.org/8jlsxxq1v/Two.jpg

The Positive Control turned red showing the test is working.

The gray stuff did not go red.

I scraped a Lead bar onto a patch - tested that - and it did turn red.

So, I did all the 'controls' and that IS NOT LEAD coming out of the barrel.....

It does not turn Blue with Copper removing Cleaners - so no Copper there either.

NOW - I am stumped.

What is THAT ? Khyber-Pass Kryptonite ?!

No idea what I am dealing with - so I opened up the rifle, drained the Mercury,
ran the brush in and out AGAIN and got just about the same thing as before.

Not a lot and not none......?????

Feeling rifling when I run a tight patch down the barrel (the cleaning rod rotates),
I wiped the barrel out and applied ATF.

I will assemble the receiver parts, re-load some .312 Cast Wheel-Weight Bullets
with Black Powder (to start with) and see what happens....

http://s19.postimg.org/stj4d2r6r/312_Cal_Cast_Bullets.jpg

If the Rifle shoot well, it is a Khyber-Pass Enigma...but I'll have fun with it.
The guys at the shooting range will bust their butts giving me "considered"
opinions and advice.....as per usual.

If it shoots badly, it is a Khyber-Pass wall display......

If it blows up in my face, I'll leave instructions for my wife to post my obituary here,
"He died of curiosity."

DoctorBill

FLINTNFIRE - first off, I bet he would refuse to rebore that barrel, since he does
not know what metal it is (Steel, Iron, Rail Road Rails, Russian Truck Axles,
British Fence Posts,...?) and would probably be worried that I'd sue him if the
barrel exploded.

Second - I wonder if he could re-cut the Enfield Rifling on the old grooves to
0.314 and not have to go to a larger calibre such as 8 mm ?

I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

[Multigunner]

Residue of Zinc Pest compromised high zinc content cast Boolits ?
Zinc alloy bullets have been used in gallery practice loads.
Zinc alloy bullets normally scrape away copper and lead fouling while leaving very little if any zinc in the bore, but Zinc Pest contamination of zinc alloys degrades the bullet over a long period of storage.

[DoctorBill]

Multi - Zinc residue would respond VERY Quickly to Muriatic Acid (Hydrochloric Acid - HCl).
Zinc is a VERY active metal and dissolves in HCl with violent bubbling producing Hydrogen gas.

I can toss some of those patches and Kleenex wipes into Hydrochloric acid and see if it dissolves.

If so, a short time with some medium strength Hydrochloric Acid would strip it out without
bothering the Steel.

Muriatic Acid pickling of steel to remove rust is done all the time....hardly touches the steel.

Some of the guys on this forum would have conniption fits if I poured Hydrochloric Acid
down that barrel !

Later.....

Half strength Muriatic (Hydrochloric) Acid doesn't dissolve what is on those patches. (?)

DoctorBill

[texassako]

I wonder what is coming out on the patches? If you ever get bored enough you could try an old school way of freshening rifling if you can get a slug to follow what is there: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?132243-Recutting-Rifling-to-freshen-or-deepen-lands-amp-grooves

[Mk42gunner]

Nickel fouling from some of the old silvery looking jackets?

Robert

[Multigunner]

Ammonia should dissolve nickel.
Could it be Tin?
There have been tinplated bullets.

[FLINTNFIRE]

He does not rebore to 8mm , I asked when I was doing the first rifle, the only way to know if he would of course is to ask him , as for recutting rifling , it sounds like your bore size is already large in areas , shoot it with the black powder loads , should be plenty safe , fun to make noise with anyway.
I have one of the older foul outs and it was always interesting to see the different metals pulled out of older surplus military rifles , it would come out in layers , clean the rod and pull more out . But nothing quite as severe as you have run into.

[Multigunner]

Maybe get a chamber adapter and use .32 S&W Long or .32 ACP for plinking.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'd consider boring it out to 45/70, similar ballistics with BP to the 450/577, but no hassles getting brass and dies, etc.

A lot of guys in Australia use large frame Martini action for long range BP guns.

[DoctorBill]

I have to re-load some of the 0.312's I mentioned previously, then try shooting this creature.

Am in the throes of teaching the end of my Chemistry 110 course and have to attend to
that business before I can play.

I can 'maybe' load up some rounds this afternoon, if more other things don't get in the way.

I will post the results of firing thru this "Barrel" after it happens.

Until then - pull up your pants and dance !

DoctorBill

[truckjohn]

That "Refreshing" rifling process sounds pretty interesting.... May work out pretty well in this case - where you have plenty of rifling at the Breech end, but only a shadow at the muzzle....

This would be the perfect test mule.... and there is literally nothing to loose....

At least you could have something that would shoot.....

Question - have you tried the electronic bore cleaner yet? I read about home made jobs that were basically a piece of SS welding rod, a couple rubber stoppers, and a "C" battery....

Thanks

[DoctorBill]

I am most embarrassed.

I spent over two hours trying to get that Martini Firing Pin Block to go back into the
rifle and got nowhere !
Tried EVERYTHING to get it back together....even pulled up the Web Site on assembly -
disassembly....
http://www.martinihenry.com/apart.htm
nothing.....

So I'm sitting there eyeballing the parts wondering why I am a spaz....when I noticed
that the curved Extractor has a hole thru the curved part.....Jesus.....help.....me.....!

Albert Einstein defined Insanity as '...doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results."

Once I took the Trigger Assembly out and put it back with the Extractor Bolted in there,
everything slipped back together quite smoothly.....

Time for me to be put in a home for the mentally decrepit and feed me pablum....and wipe
the drool off my chin with a doily.

So it is back together waiting for some bullets to be made.

More when I fire it - maybe with an adult watching over me so I don't hold the
muzzle to my shoulder....

DoctorBill

truckjohn - you came in late - several pages back in this thread I did that.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201278-303-Martini-Enfield-with-Strange-Rifling-Problem&p=2250429&viewfull=1#post2250429

Next Day -

http://s19.postimg.org/fbles9tsz/303_British_Cast_185_gr.jpg

[303Guy]

I'd consider boring it out to 45/70,
That's no possible - the barrel has sight mounting holes drilled into it. I'm not sure whether one can bore it out to 35 cal.

There are 303 barrels for sale on usedguns.com.aus

[truckjohn]

Is that lathe in your picture big enough to chuck up a barrel blank [smilie=1:
If so - you may well have a new project... Find yourself a discount 308 barrel blank and go to town.....

303 Brit headspaces on the rim afterall ;)

[DoctorBill]

truckjohn - No it is not big enough and I am a raw beginner, so I wouldn't
attempt that anyway. My machinist friend would though. He'd love to try that !

I am probably not going to drop another dime on this rifle.

Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to fire it. I'll let you all know what happens.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

303guy - Well Blimey ! Look at this, Mate !
http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=14919

I wonder if this is from the same Khyber Pass "Gun shop" ?

These also !
http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=17692

http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=15049

http://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=16096

1 Austrailian $$ converts to 1.04 U$S right now 6-15-2013

Now how would I get a rifle out of Australia !? Imagine Customs in the USA !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Still have not had time to drive to the Range and fire this thing....problems and life, etc.
Car problems....'97 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4 - works good but when problems arise is a PITA to get it fixed !

But that has not stopped me from thinking - hurts to do that !

Given the variable nature of this rifling, perhaps this PARTICULAR rifle is a good candidate
for Paper Patched Bullets....

The paper patching would allow me to use 'regular' old 30 calibre (.308) bullets and would
take up the variable diameters within the barrel.....maybe.

I paper patch for my 577-450 Martini-Henry Zulu and my 45-70's, so I know HOW to do it.

http://s19.postimg.org/c7t4eg6jn/MH_vs_45_70s.jpg

DoctorBill

[Multigunner]

Sounds like a very good idea. 303 Guy can tell you all about paper patching with the .303.

[DoctorBill]

Won't get to shoot this KPC for a while - Car Clutch Problems (2 vehicles) and
it is raining here....
So.

Later.

STILL raining - like the proverbial "Cow Peeing on a flat rock" ! OMG...we're getting Jungle Rot !
Maybe global warming is changing our climate here - maybe another "Year with no summer"
like the Indians called it.
But then if they had a name for the event, must happen often enough to be given a name....
Oh well - Obama is going to take care of it via Presidential Edict - WE'RE SAFE !

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

doc you and that gun still ok?

[DoctorBill]

Yes - I am OK....just waiting for the weather to break !

We are getting a Hell of a lot of rain here in Eastern Washington State
and the range is 20 minutes away @55 mph and opens at 2 PM.
I may have a go at it tomorrow - after a Doctor's Visit (An MD Type)
looks like I have a hernia. I am slowly falling to pieces.

Am awaiting a Snider .577 I just bought (FEDEX from Texas).

http://s19.postimg.org/ylaic436r/Mc_Kesson_Snider_3_at_50.jpg

Have two boxes (50 cases) of 24 Gauge Brass Magtech Shotgun Brass
to form the .577 Snider Cartridges out of.

http://s19.postimg.org/6mgcl91k3/Martini_577_450.jpg
The one on the LEFT ! The one with arrows pointing is a Martini-Henry Round.
The rightmost round is .303 British.

The LEE Die Set and the Lee .577 500 gr Bullet Mold are in transit from
Natchez Shooter's Supply.

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

gonna be a fun summer

[Multigunner]

Cool that the most famous of British military cartridge rifles were all designed by Americans.
The Martini is a redesign of the American Peabody rifle, the Snyder cartridge conversion was invented by an American, The Lee Enfield is a Modifed James Parish Lee design. Even the Lewisgun was an American Design, though if not for BSA refining the design it would not have been successful.
Hiram Maxim was an American but became a Citizen of the UK after they adopted the Maxim MG, setting up factories there. The Vickers is an improved modification of the Maxim design.

[DoctorBill]

I shot the Martini-Enfield Khyber Pass Kopy today.

The barrel of this "rifle" would make a so-so fence post.....

Here are the five Brass Cartridges that came out after firing it (It didn't Explode).
185 gr 0.312 Cast Bullet in front of 31 grains of Pyrodex.

One new one to show how they started out....

http://s19.postimg.org/9vurrppnn/Khyber_Pass_Kopy_Spent_Brass.jpg

The case is 0.450" at the base above the rim and 0.416" just below where the shoulder
used to be.

I shot one off with a folded carpet over the action to see if it would explode (didn't)
then four at a 25 yd 15 inch Pizza Round target. A real Tack Driver !

http://s19.postimg.org/azew3oaar/Khyber_Pass_Kopy_25_yds.jpg

A nice looking Wall Hanger Display....guess I'll go eat worms.

Ah, well....onward. Maybe one day I'll find a 303 Lee Enfield barrel to put on there.

I just received my .577 Snider.....will post it on a separate Thread.

DoctorBill
(End of Thread)

[Wayne Smith]

Methinks thou needeth a chamber cast! Probably ought to find out for which cartridge it is now chambered.
From the way the boolits entered the target a different one might also help.

[DoctorBill]

Yes - I will do a Cerosafe chamber cast - but what in the Devil would have that shape ?!

One wonders - they are cheap ! How about taking a Mosin-Nagant Barrel and getting it to
thread to the Receiver.
Cheap rifles ($100) and Very Cheap ammo to shoot...?

There is a "Gun Shop" here in town (Brock's Gunsmithing Inc. ) - they have a couple of drums
full of BARRELS that I may go look at. They are not well thought of in this area, however......

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

After seeing the fired cases from that rifle, wall hanger status is looking better and better.

Robert

[texassako]

Looking at that case made me think of .410 shotgun conversions. A field conversion with a drill bit? Shooting whatever is on hand would scour out any rifling. We may never know.

[Multigunner]

I'd go for a .410 or low pressure rifle round conversion. Might be a good candidate for a .44-40 or .45 Colt if you have a revolver in that chambering.
New barrel blank preferably since the steel used to make this barrel is suspect.
No telling what thread pattern was used, could be standard Enfield or something easier to find.

[truckjohn]

LOL...
Or... More likely just something Miscellaneous that the Gunsmith that built it was familiar with... Whatever his lathe was setup for....

Khyber pass... I would be thinking Metric something or another... but the real answer is... Who knows.. You will probably have to hand fit a barrel to those threads....

Too bad on the actual chamber... but as this thing adds up further and further along - it just continues to push further and further down the "Hang me on the wall" road....

I gotta say... You really took the bull by the horns firing it!

Thanks

[Multigunner]

Possibly the chamber was bored out to take some sort of blank cartridge for motion picture use, or firing salutes.

If there was a plug in the muzzle at one time they may have bored and plugged the chamber as well.
Action and wood looks pretty decent.

[Wayne Smith]

I have a BSA Martini action that, when I got it, was a .303 smooth bore. I was told it was a prison guard's gun. I don't know how common that was.

[Multigunner]

I have a BSA Martini action that, when I got it, was a .303 smooth bore. I was told it was a prison guard's gun. I don't know how common that was.
Some UK gun collectors had .303 rifles smooth bored so these could be classed along with shotguns rather than rifles. They had some funny regulations back in those days.
I've heard of WW1 reenactment rifles being smooth bores.

The various shotgun conversions, with barrels in larger bore, were used as riot guns or prison guard guns.

Some used a special breech block and firing pin with extra nib that would fit an annular groove in the case head of special military shot shells so regular shot shells could not be used.
They used a necked shot shell, the bore being smaller than the main body of the shell would have suggested.
Some of these were later converted to use standard civilian shot shells.

[DoctorBill]

There is a fellow who contacted me with TWO .303 Martini-Enfield barrels he'd sell !

http://s19.postimg.org/n1hpuvrj7/Two_Used_Barrels.jpg

I am in the process of discussing the sale, so maybe I can get this old bugger working.
I am asking him to slug one of them - I don't want to get burned again....

Am making a barrel vice as per this link:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/removing-carcano-barrel-receiver-246196/

Got the metal (1 & 1/2 inch x 6 inch Mild Steel) and the Hardened bolts.
Will soon be drilling the bolt holes and then boring the big 1.5" hole in the center.
I'll have to get the handle welded on as I am a pitiful, terrible welder....

I hope I can get the barrel off w/o paying a gunsmith a fortune to take it off for me
here in Spokane Washington - the capitol of small towns and few gunsmiths.

I only know of Brock's Guns here, however they have a bad rep as real butts to get along with.
Been in the place and do not like 'trying' to get anything from them.

Besides, it would be fun to try myself and learn something.

If I can't do it, I just found out that Sharp Shooters here has a gunsmith who will
take it off for $65 ! Thank you Lord !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I have been convinced by many people (including the Gunsmith and the barrel seller) to forgo
trying to re-barrel this Darra made Khyber-Pass "Martini" receiver.

Everyone thinks that it is 'probably' too dangerous (weak - poorly made, etc) to put a 'real English
made barrel on it.

Besides, I don't know what the Khyber-Pass Darra threads are. 14 TPI ? The correct diameter ?

So I am ending this thread now and it is going to become a Wall Display.

DoctorBill

PS - if anyone knows of or has an actual Martini-Enfield (.303 British) for sale,
please contact me at andromeda two 0 three four at rezmail dot com.

rezmail with a "Z".

[curator]

Dr.Bill,

Here is a Martini action that did not sell. Possibly you can contact the owner and work something out:http://www.gunsamerica.com/938113249/Martini_action.htm

Rebarreling a Large action Martini is not all that difficult. I have done it on several Martini Enfields and Cadets. A home made barrel wrench and a sturdy bench vise and maybe a 4 foot "cheater-bar" is all it takes. Remember to solidly block the inside of the action before clamping it in a vise. Kroil is your friend as well as a tiny bit of heat in the right spot. Clean the threads REALLY WELL before replacing the barrel. I usually apply a little anti-seize compound before screwing the new barrel in, mostly as a lubricant.

Your Kyber-Pass Martini is a valuable piece of history even if a wall hanger. Hang on to it, they have mostly stopped making them.

[DoctorBill]

Curator - I looked at that action.
Extremely POOR photograph !
I may contact the seller, but poor photos is how Khyber-Pass stuff gets dumped
on people.
Sale ended - unsold - absolutely no way to contact seller on ad page !

I am making a Barrel vice now.
Made an action vice already.
Purchasing a used 303 ME rifle barrel now if someone hasn't already bought it.

We'll see.

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

any updates Doc?

I am interested in your Cerrosafe casting.


I would hate for you to "hang" this one up, and be beaten....

being able to KNOW what you have would benefit everyone who has been watching.

I surely hope you don't give up!

[DoctorBill]

Nanuk - I went over to the Britishmilitaria Forum and discussed trying to make this
Pakistani Made Rifle work.

Several of the folk there 'convinced' me that the rifle action is unsafe even
if I were to replace the barrel with a real British made one.

Here is where it is right now....
http://s19.postimg.org/wfwgxuujn/Khyber_Pass_M_E_Wall_Hanger.jpg

I did purchase that .303 Martini-Enfield Barrel, that I mentioned earlier, for $120.

The guy I bought it from screwed me on THAT because a bench vice was used to
remove it and had crushed in the barrel about 8 inches from the receiver end maybe
.005 inch into the barrel. Wouldn't take it back - said I waited too long to challenge the
sale ( took me a while to actually find the indentation).

I am going to make a "D Bit" on a Drill Rod end and bore that (~1 cm) indentation
out so that the barrel can be used later on. A gunsmith and a machinist tell me I
can probably shoot with the barrel as it is....(?) Most of the barrel length is
after the vice made indentation.

The Pakistani Made rifle's action looks identical to my actual Martini-Henry action,
but the Britishmilitaria forum folk told me the "Breech Block Axis
Pin" on all of those rifles is weak and can break - allowing the Block to come back
at the shooters head.
The curved indentation on the rear of the Action Body where the Breech Block rotates
should take the recoil abuse of the Breech Block, not the pin itself, but then -
who am I to argue with them.
The fact that the 'rifle' had been shot quite a lot did not impress them.
i.e. the pin hadn't broken with all that shooting - whatever it was.

http://s19.postimg.org/m73zs16hv/martiniaction.jpg

I could probably buy a real Breech Block Axis Pin somewhere and make the
rifle usable - if I were to switch out the garbage barrel for a real one.

Most on Britishmilitaria think I'd be much better off buying a 'real' Martini-Enfield
action and put the used barrel on THAT.
The wood furniture on the Khyber-Pass (Pakistani) rifle is superb !
May be a copy, but, by God, they do good work !

That is where it stands as of now. This whole thing has me so PO'ed that I shouldn't
say anything about it. I tend to 'vent', as it were.

The Pakistani barrel, in my opinion, is a 'beautiful on the outside' piece of garbage.
God knows the kind of metal it is made of. Has zip real rifling. I think they just gouged out
something that looks like rifling inside the barrel, but after shooting it with cast bullets
and Black Powder, the bullets key-holed at 25 yards !
It had enough copper in it to make up a TV's wiring - so it had been shot quite
a bit. Who knows why ? Only good for up close action - 25 to 50 yds maybe.
Funny - has C.A.I. "Made in U.K." stamped on the barrel. Pakistani wording on the Receiver.
Can't trust these importers as far as they can be thrown. They apparently don't check squat.

If I work further on it, I will come back here.

Is all this worth it ? No. It is just a challenge that I hate to give up on after
going all this way.

DoctorBill

PS - Have had two BAD EXPERIENCES buying firearms via the Internet now.
This "Rifle" and the Barrel later on. Everything is wonderful until you find out something
is not wonderful. Then is is, 'too bad...you bought it ! Bye' People lie....

PS2 - I changed my AVATAR.

[303Guy]

I have one shallow rifle 303 Lee Enfield that shoots paper patched boolits pretty well but the bore is clean and relatively shiny with rust pitting. It is very oversize which is actually good because a chamber fitting boolit doesn't need any neck sizing to seat boolits. Then I have a rust damaged gun that literally had a layer of scale covering the whole bore interior. I fire-lapped that out and got it to shoot paper patched boolits reasonably well. Again the now enlarged bore and throat takes a boolit that seat in unsized necks. I have a third gun with hardly any rifling left in it at all, also rust damage that shoots paper patched without slipping the rifling shadow but I've only tried them at very low velocity and never at a range. I had ideas of refreshing the bore somehow but I might just fit a 35/303 or 375/303 barrel on it.

[303Guy]

... the Britishmilitaria forum folk told me the "Breech Block Axis
Pin" on all of those rifles is weak and can break - allowing the Block to come back
at the shooters head. That's a myth. The breach block rests against the rear of the action body so recoil thrust is carried by the action body and not the pin.

You have a whole year to return defective goods. Nail him! Take him to a small claims court - preferably one in your area. Make him travel!

[DoctorBill]

303 guy - I PM'd you.

DoctorBill

[Hang Fire]

Have you tried Chore Boy (real) brass scrub pads? Just tear off some strips to get a tight bore fit with cleaning rod and if lead and crud, it will strip it right out. I had a original Model p 1873 SAA where no rifling could hardly be seen. After the Chore Boy treatment, slightly frosted but beautiful rifling emerged.

More info here at Url:

https://www.google.com/#q=Chore+Boy+(real)+brass+scrub+pads+for+bore+clea ning