Lead Cores

[plus1hdcp]

Ok guys, I anticipate BT to be finishing up some 22 dies in the near future and want to talk about cores. I have my lead cores cast and bled to a common weight. I have read others have taken these cores prior to use and degrease and/or boil to clean. These are bench rest guys and wonder if there is any gain to our use? I look forward to your comments.

[Utah Shooter]

Are you talking about them cleaning the lube off after squirting?

[plus1hdcp]

Excatly

[Utah Shooter]

Yes that is a must.

[plus1hdcp]

Appreciate the reply, time to fire up the turkey fryer and put on a pot of water (man I get a lot of uses out of the turkey fryer propane base I purchased years ago)

[R.Ph. 380]

I just planned on cleaning with mineral spirits and roll around on towel. Would it be better to boil?

Bill

[Utah Shooter]

Anyway you can get the junk off. I use Acetone but then again I have change from using bullet making lube to using 3 in 1 oil.

P.S. Gotta love those turkey fryers.

[plus1hdcp]

I'll have to try 3 in 1 oil as a swage lube.

[Lizard333]

Acetone. You need the cores to be as clean as you can get them. Lube left on can be a bad thing.....

[plus1hdcp]

How long to soak/agitate in acetone? 5-10 minutes or so?

[sargenv]

Lube left on can be a bad thing.....

Wondering why this is true?

[dkmulford]

Wondering why this is true?

Yeah, I'd like to know as well. I've read where you *must* clean the lead cores....but I've left them as is and gone to the range and had very accurate shots out to 200 yards. What are the problems?

D

[Lizard333]

As far as cleaning my cores, I use a canning jar, and place the cores inside and add the acetone. Place the lid on and roll your cores around for about 30 seconds. I use the lid as a strainer and pour our the acetone. I pour the cores on a clean towel and allow the acetone to evaporate.

As far as cleaning them...... You have the possiblity of core jacket seperation. Think about it. What is the swage lube providing you when you swage? It gives you a physical barrier preventing your lead or jacket from gauling to the dies. Leaving the lube on the core prevents the lead and jacket from bonding.

Now, it doesn't happen very often, but the fact that it might happen, is reason enough for me. I value my face and firearms.

[mold maker]

How would lead/jacket separation be dangerous to your face or gun?
With 20,000+ psi behind the closed base of the jacket, it is pushing the lead, to at least, exit the barrel.
Just asking, I learn every day.

[midnight]

It seems to me that cores that are not very firmly pressed against the inside of the jacket will spin at a different RPM than the jacket due to the difference in density between the jacket and the core (inertia) and that cannot be good for accuracy. Maybe the lands pressing the jacket into the core lock them together well enough, I don't know. It seems to me that the tighter the fit of the core in the jacket, the better off you are. Bonding would be even better and we havn't even begun to discuss terminal performance on game.

Bob

[BT Sniper]

Going back to the 3 in 1 oil....... I haven't tried it but the only thing I currently reccomend to be used in my dies is an Anhydros Lanolin mixed lube.

As far as removing any lube from inside of jacket or core..... YES it is common practice to remove all the lube possible. You guys put in this much effort in making these bullets I can't imigine you want to leave anything to chance when it comes to how well these bullets will shoot for you. A simple soak in mineral spirits and rub down in a large towel is what I do but you can't be "too" clean in your practices.

BT

[Utah Shooter]

3 in 1is what my "mentor" uses. I decided to give it a try and have not seen a need to go back. It works great and comes off super fast.

[fredj338]

How would lead/jacket separation be dangerous to your face or gun?
With 20,000+ psi behind the closed base of the jacket, it is pushing the lead, to at least, exit the barrel.
Just asking, I learn every day.
Well the core is probably leaving the bbl but a stuck jacket getting hit by another bullet is NOT going to be good for the bbl, gun or maybe shooter.

[Reload3006]

I doubt very seriously that you would stick a jacket in your bore. But you remove as much lube as possible. I personally use MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone) to clean mine and I too use only anhydrous lanolin and castor oil ... the reason for cleaning as much lube off the cores as possible is to reduce the amount of voids and make a more accurate bullet. As BT said why go through all the trouble of drawing jackets, swaging an accurate core. Then throwing away the work in making an accurate core by not cleaning it when you core seat? Trapped air is a real accuracy killer in swaged bullets. the more you can do to eliminate it and insure more consistant accurate core seating will result in the most accurate bullet you are able to make. Dont do it it won't blow up your gun but you probably will have a bunch of Boolits that arent very good for even plinking

[plus1hdcp]

Thanks guys for a good discussion. I used anhydrous lanolin and castor oil as a lube and a swirl/soak in mineral spirits to aid in cleaning. One reason I started this topic and I was not too terribly clear is I read where others were adding an additional step of boiling in a dishwasher soap mixture and subsequent rinse. I have not done this to my cores but it seems like a small extra step to take. I also like the line Reload3006 added "to reduce the amount of voids and make a more accurate bullet." BT also commented, "you guys put in this much effort in making these bullets I can't imagine you want to leave anything to chance when it comes to how well these bullets will shoot for you." As for me, I have not yet received all my dies and hope mine will be included in the shipment BT received this week but I plan to add a second cleaning, if you will, to the swaged cores and anxiously await the final steps to make my own. Thanks again for a good discussion.

[aaronraad]

I'm using a lanolin based lubricant at the moment for core squirting.
I rinse with metho and then towel off.
I then boil some water and add cleaning vinegar to the clean cores in the bottom of a pan.
The cores are rolled every 5min in the solution as it cools.
After about 20min+/-5 min the vinegar/hot water solution is strained off and the cores go into a strainer.
The strained cores then get thoroughly rinsed with hot tap water.
The cores are toweled off. They should still be warm by this stage and are left on the towel to dry completely overnight.

I'm considering converting to citric acid, instead of vinegar with my next batch. I did to use carby cleaner instead of metho initially but I'm trying to cut back. ;-)

[blaser.306]

The lanolin must be removed from your cores before seating ! completely! It prevents the core from becoming lodged permanantly in your bleed die and will not allow it to remain "stuck" inside of your jacket when swaged into place. Even with clean cores I ocationaly get 1 or 2 that want to POP up out of place when waiting to go for their ride thru the point form die.

[Lizard333]

Im using acetone on my cores so this is where my question is coming from. Does using mineral spirits leave a residue on the cores? I have limited experiance with the product, on using it to clean paint brushes but I always had oilly residue. If thats the case, it seems counter intuitive. Using acetone, my cores are stripped of any coating and are completely clean.

[Hickory]

Yeah, I'd like to know as well. I've read where you *must* clean the lead cores....but I've left them as is and gone to the range and had very accurate shots out to 200 yards. What are the problems?

D

The theory is that if lube is left on the core then there is not a tight grip between the core and jacket. (Sounds like pure logic to me)
but then you might say "So what, why would that matter?"
The rest of the theory goes like this; If there is lube on the core and even if there is a tight core to jacket grip, what happens when the bullet is fired, it goes from a standing stop to, lets say, 3200 fps in a matter of 1 or 2 milliseconds.
When the bullet hits the rifling rotation begins, this too happens in the same 1or 2 milliseconds, depending on the twist of the rifling, the rotation can be over 100,000 rpm.
Now if there is lube in the mix the jacket will start the rotation and the core will not rotate at the same instant. This in turn heats up the core melting the lead in the area where the core and jacket are suppose to be one component. Sloppy bullet on its way to target can't be very accurate.
That's the theory and I believe it.

Now think of a car engine and how it would perform if the bolts were not tightened,

[aaronraad]

Im using acetone on my cores so this is where my question is coming from. Does using mineral spirits leave a residue on the cores? I have limited experiance with the product, on using it to clean paint brushes but I always had oilly residue. If thats the case, it seems counter intuitive. Using acetone, my cores are stripped of any coating and are completely clean.

I believe metho does leave a residue. I'm not sure about acetone but that's why I was using carby cleaner, no residue. Electrical contact cleaner, oxygen senor cleaner and MEK don't leave any residue either. I'm sure they are still using MEK as the priming fliud for gluing PVC piping together.

In terms of leaving lube on the cores in general, I don't believe it produces the best accuracy. Acceptable accuracy fit for purpose, yes. Lubrication, regardless of the 'swaging-up' principal, must be consistent to produce a consistently accuracte projectile. Any change in the lubrication will show up in the core seating, and this is arguably the most important step.

[gunguychuck]

If a core fits to tight in the jacket before you seat it air can get trapped under the core and be compressed causing the core to pop out.

[clodhopper]

Does anybody use a sonic cleaner with dawn and lemishine to clean cores and jackets?

[MUSTANG]

Does any one know what the commercial bullet makers use for core cleaning? One assumes they are going through the same processes, just a few million more rounds a day in fabrication.

Mustang

[onomrbil]

Lanolin/castor oil swaging lube on cores? What are you guys thinking? I had a long conversation with Walt Berger about core lube and squirting in which he explained that swage lube was a detriment to core-making. Common motor is more than adequate and only a small quantity is required. He says 19 drops will lubricate 1,000 .224 cores. Degrease with lacquer thinner and a clean terry cloth towel. If you want to make them a little more grabby inside the jacket soak them in white vinegar for little bit. No need to make more work for yourself than is required.

[Cane_man]

^^^20 posts in nearly 7 years? LOL, you need to post more often, thanks for the info!

[Utah Shooter]

Lanolin/castor oil swaging lube on cores? What are you guys thinking? I had a long conversation with Walt Berger about core lube and squirting in which he explained that swage lube was a detriment to core-making. Common motor is more than adequate and only a small quantity is required. He says 19 drops will lubricate 1,000 .224 cores. Degrease with lacquer thinner and a clean terry cloth towel. If you want to make them a little more grabby inside the jacket soak them in white vinegar for little bit. No need to make more work for yourself than is required.

Funny that is the same advice I was given.

[Nix]

As a few have mentioned, the problem with not cleaning the lube off the core before seating is that it prevents the jacket from properly 'crimping' to the core, which means theoretically it could separate in the gun or in flight. At best it's going to hurt accuracy, at worst I could see bits of brass jacket getting stuck inside your gun and causing a problem down the line.

Never actually seen it occur, but I'm not interested in experiencing it first hand.

I bought a sack (yes, a sack) of citric acid powder from a natural foods place in BC, I think it was 75lbs or so, for about $88 (it was that or pay $7.99 for a salt-shaker sized container). I just bought a simple crock-pot/slow-cooker from Canadian Tire ($14 on sale) and keep it full with a mixture of regular water and citric acid powder. I load up maybe 500-1,000 cores at a time into a cheesecloth 'bag' and leave it in the slow cooker set to high heat for maybe 30 minutes (it doesn't agitate other than the bubbles from boiling). It works excellent and best of all the acid mix lasts seemingly forever as the oil/lube forms on the top like grease in dishwater where it hardens. When it's cool you can just skim it off with a spoon and toss it out. I figure between the longevity of this stuff and the fact that I've got 75lbs of it, I'm probably good for life.

Only downside is between the two crock-pots (one for bullet lube), and the mysterious looking bag of citric acid crystals my sunroom looks like a meth lab.

[rasto]

According my experience, 9000 bullets made so far, I had silicone oil at disposal and sprayed with it my lead cut wire before core forming process. After the cores were made I did nothing with them and left them oily. I finished the bullets and shoot them without any issue so far and I am not expecting nothing else in the future.
Spend your time wisely and do only necessary steps to save your time for shooting and family!

PS I push them only up to 2800fps through my AR15.

[Utah Shooter]

Rasto... What is your accuracy goal with these?

I have not made near as many as you have (with 22lr jackets) and have to admit. I did not take the lube off of mine when I started making them. I did however have more than one 5 shot groups with only 3-4 holes in them. I would say this was from the projectile coming apart mid flight.

[Lizard333]

All I know is what others have taught me. Those that have been doing this longer than I've been alive. Sorry Al. 😎

They say the cores have to be clean as a whistle, I do as I'm told. Cleaning my cores in acetone takes all of two minutes.

Wasted step. Nope. Blaster62 makes bullets capable of hitting a four inch group at a 1000 meters. He's the guy that taught me. I'm going to do as he does and not question it.

Corbin's and RCE's website, the two brothers that have been doing the dies and making bullets, both stress the need for clean cores. I don't think they are going to lead us wrong. The better bullets we make, the happier we are, the more money I spend on their dies.

Just my two pennies........

[rasto]

Joe my goal is to shoot IPSC targets within 100m so my gun is capable to shoot 1MOA group at 50m which is sufficient.

http://img.janforman.com/th/IMAG0436ciay.jpg (http://img.janforman.com/IMAG0436ciay.jpg)

[Prospector Howard]

Another good reason to have a core mold that drops the cores out the weight that you want them already. You don't have to put them through a core swage die, and then use toxic chemicals to clean them off, Two steps saved---

[Nix]

What kind of core mould are you using, Howard? I have one from Blackmon and while it's a good quality product, I don't trust it down to the grain so I still core-swage.

As for toxic chemicals, I think most of us use some form of citric acid either the chemical itself, or dish detergeant etc. I've only seen a few people mention anything toxic (acetone, brake cleaner) and even then only if you were to drink it.

[Prospector Howard]

I'm using home made 2 cavity core molds. When I get the mold up to speed (good and hot and cranking them out without any wrinkles) they come out within a tenth of a grain or two of each other; which is plenty good for me. I just went a different route I guess. I figured the time I spent initially to make the molds would save me time later. I don't even own a core swage die. Some members mentioned lacquer thinner and acetone & I'm just not a big fan of stuff like that. It's bad enough to try to avoid lead fumes with a fan behind me when I cast.
What kind of core mould are you using, Howard? I have one from Blackmon and while it's a good quality product, I don't trust it down to the grain so I still core-swage.

As for toxic chemicals, I think most of us use some form of citric acid either the chemical itself, or dish detergeant etc. I've only seen a few people mention anything toxic (acetone, brake cleaner) and even then only if you were to drink it.

[Nix]

Wow that's pretty incredible consistency, no wonder you skip swaging them.

I hear you on the lead; I have a set of 'casting' clothes that don't come in the house and a special mask designed for lead dust that I wear. A lot of my buddies think thats nuts but I cast tens of thousands of rounds a year so to me a little inconvenience is a reasonable trade off for my health.