Globe Sights

[ColColt]

The globe front sight makes no sense to me at all. You're looking through a peep sight from the rear tang and the front sight is a #111 or #113 with a cross hair and circle in the middle. How can you hit anything with that setup? Depending on distance, that circle could blot out the entire target. I could see it if the front sight had some sort of thin post, but a circle?

http://www.montanavintagearms.com/113_lowprofile.html

[Don McDowell]

Nope the circle won't blot out the whole target, you don't need the whole target anyway all you need is the bullseye.
But front sight inserts are totally a matter of personal choice, and it comes down to what you and your eye decide you can get along with at what distance and what shape of target.

[freebullet]

Interesting concept. I don't think it would be a premium accuracy long-range sight. Could be good for spot & stalk or drive deer hunting. Then there's the price tag. When open sights cost what a decent entry level scope costs its a tough sell.

[M-Tecs]

It’s personal choice but the aperture front sight (globe) is the dominate sight for Olympic, Rimfire, NRA High Power and NRA Long range shooters shooting at round targets.

Optically it is superior for numerous reasons. To shoot well you must see the front sight clearly but the aperture front is the most forgiving. This is a great benefit as your eyes get tired towards the end of a long match and as we get older. Also when using a post front if you are use a line of white, 6 o’clock or a frame hold the point of impact will change as the light goes up or down.

Good info below

http://www.yarlooprc.com/Articles/TripleJ%20Imports/Aperture.pdf

http://www.shootersforum.com/single-shot-rifles/50546-how-do-your-eye-brain-use-front-aperture-sight.html

http://www.jarheadtop.com/Blue_Three.htm

http://www.usashooting.org/library/Instructional/Rifle/rifle_jan_feb_2011.pdf

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?37291-How-do-your-eye-and-brain-use-a-front-aperture-sight

[375RUGER]

I tell my wife all the time, "Don't try anything new, you might like it"
That circle is pretty thin on the MVA sight, I don't think it will blot out as much as you think.

[M-Tecs]

Interesting concept. I don't think it would be a premium accuracy long-range sight.

This type of sight is the premium long-range accuracy sight.


Then there's the price tag. When open sights cost what a decent entry level scope costs its a tough sell.

I wish they only cost what a decent entry level scope cost. For my competition rifles (NRA High Power & Long Range) a good front and rear setup will cost between $700.00 and $1,200.00. For BPCR a good front and rear is $500.00 plus.

Below is what I use for NRA High Power & Long Range.

http://www.warner-tool.com/sights.htm

http://www.auburnscouts.com/stallingsmachine/rightsight.htm

http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Anschutz-550-2.aspx

[country gent]

I have used the apeture rear and front globe for many years, Smallbore, High power match rifle, Long range, and for BPCR rifles ( have yet to shoot my first match) with very good results. High Master Accross the course ( 200-600 yds) Long range (800, 900, and 1000 yds). The "trick is maintaining a ring of white ( I perfer around 1 1/2 mins ) between the rear apeture and front globe, then the same line of white between the front appeture and the bullseye. Once zeroed you watch the lines of white. I could shoot better scores long range normally with my appeture sights than the scope. Another mistake is turning the rear sight to to small an appeture thus restricting the amount of light getting to your eye. A little paractice and calling your shots accuratly and these sights become very accurate in use. Go to one of the newer rear sights ( Warner, Zelnack, Central ect ect) the have much less backlash and play than the old redfield palmas olympics and such. They work but you have to always turn in the same direction. If your set for right and need 2 clicks left you go 8-10 left then 6-8 back right. Makes a lot to remeber under stress. Im still figuring out the ladder on my sharps and others.

[Gunlaker]

I use an aperture insert in the globe, no cross hairs. When the light is good, and I'm shooting at a bullseye rather than an irregular target, the sight is every bit as accurate as when using my 6x MVA scope. When the light is not so good then it's harder.

Chris.

[freebullet]

Outside of competition I don't think many would drop that kind of coin on open sights. I'm not knocking them, just saying I would be more likely to spend 500$ on a scope then a pair of sights. If the globe was calibrated to a specific size round target at a given yardage I can see how they would be better. I was thinking more about deer hunting, where the further away the smaller the deer would appear. I suppose if you used vital area size of 8" you could even use it for range estimation.

[Doc Highwall]

freebullet, in competition shooting the targets are all about the same size in minutes of angle.

High-Power
200 yards 13"
300 yards 19"
600 yards 36" all of these are between 6 and -6.5 minutes of angle in diameter.

Small-Bore
50’ A36 target 1.193”
50 yard target A-51 3.89”
100 yard target A33 8.245” all of these are approximately 8 minutes of angle in diameter.

The globe diameter stays the same size, the aperture I.D. diameter is what changes size.

[ColColt]

They've really got this down to a science, don't they? I was looking over some of the links provided by M-Tecs, especially the one http://www.yarlooprc.com/Articles/Tr...s/Aperture.pdf. Quite informative. I just couldn't envision the use of an aperture front sight, being so use to looking at some form of a post or blade for so long. It makes sense mostly if your target is a black circled bulls eye. Hunting or some other shape would no doubt require a different setup...perhaps a post instead. You'd have to have a card of apertures and pick the right one according to distance and size of the bulls eye for the aperture to work properly and get the right amount of white outside of the target area.

[country gent]

In NRA Service rifle class it is a rear apeture and front post. Has to match the rifles shiloette no visible external modifications can be showing. Its is very usefull with M1A or AR to set the rifle up for 1-2 clk 200 yd zero by cutting the front sight down. Also going to the NM with tapered top and sides. By setting the zero down at mid and long range you have a better cheek weld to the stock. Other than Black powder rifle appetures normally screw in and are adjustable for size of appeture, shade, possibly magnification or a diaopeter ( to help focus) . Levels are common also. Another newer ( when I was competing) was the ladder front appeture that could make repeatable elevation adjustments up front allowing for an even lower rear sight at 600 yds. The usefullness of the appeture sights is all most all in how they are set up. One of the first things you do with the front sight post at a match is get out a carbide miners lamp and smoke the front blade to a true dull black surface no glares or shine. A 6 oclock hold with a thin line of white and its easy to "clean" 600 yds.

[Don McDowell]

Those MVA sights (and most others) come with a card of inserts.
Globe sights like that have only been around 150 years or so, nothing new really, just fell out of fashion and use, and now folks are rediscovering them.

[country gent]

You have to pay attenntion to the appetures when you by a new card. I bought a set thinking shiloette sized appetures and got appetures shaped for chickens pigs turkeys and rams. Beautiful set fine craftsmanship. Just not exactly what I was expecting.

[ColColt]

Hmmm...wonder if I could get a card with my ex-wife on it...yep, that's the ticket.:) From what I've seen of the cards, the Type A would fit the bill for me, I believe.

http://www.montanavintagearms.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=60

[Don McDowell]

Yes the A card is a good set.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I could never shoot a post front sight well in competition. It is much easier for me to hold the bullseye in the center of two circles than to figure out each time just how high to hold a post. I agree that the aperture is not practicle for hunting. I ordered a card of apertures from MVA and I found the cutouts for the aperture are much too thin. Maybe I got the same card that country gent did.

[BCRider]

Colcolt, here's a sample of the inserts you can get for the globe front sights;

71925

For target work with formalized target sizes the rings are ideal as noted already. The round shape of the black zone on the targets centers itself ideally in the front insert ring with a hint of white around to aid in centering the target bull.

For hunting or other irregular targets I can fully understand your point. For that there's a bunch of other options as shown on that plate of inserts. I'd be thinking that the wire like cross hairs (top, third from left) would be pretty good as it doesn't obscure much of the sighting picture. Or the 4 way open center stubs (lower, second from left) would be interesting to try as it leaves the target clear. Otherwise there's the simple post to work with as well.

I've also seen some single post style inserts where the tip of the post is a tapered point. All in all that should allow for pretty decent aiming as well.

You'd be surprised at what the circle inserts are like as well. Last year I was shooting at metallic silhouette rams out at 280 yards. The whole ram showed up pretty clearly within the clear area of the front peep ring.

[Doc Highwall]

First of all when shooting with iron sights you need to make sure you have a good SIGHT ALIGNMENT ( Stock/cheek weld ) and your focus should change from the front sight to the target and back to the front sight making sure of your TARGET ALIGNMENT. Your eye should be focused on the front sight, not the target when you fire the shot. Some of the apertures shown have too small of a ring and will cause eye fatigue, and some are too fat and block the field of view around the target.

[ColColt]

Some of the apertures shown have too small of a ring and will cause eye fatigue, and some are too fat and block the field of view around the target.

I see about three or four different sizes of rings on that card. Surely one would work well.

[Gunlaker]

You can also use two of the thin rings at a time to thinken them. The Lee Shaver inserts are quite fine an I usually double them up. I like the MVA and C. Sharps inserts best though.

Chris.

[torpedoman]

the hole is empty it gives you 3 decreasing circles to center the target in, i have them on a very old mossberg 22 , factory even, and it will pop the head off a turkey at 75 yards.

[EDG]

ColColt
I cannot even see the thin ring front apertures. However the two heavy rings on the top right of the Pedersoli card or the similar inserts mader by Lyman and others work really well. With good ammo I can shoot close to 1" groups at 100 yards from a bench rest. I have to use a black bullseye on a large white (2 foot X 2 foot) back ground to do it. But the front and rear apertures work even where your eyes produce a ring of fuzz around the apertures.
Back in the late 1960's or early 1970's I saw Sue Ann Sandusky shoot 1" 10 shot groups prone with her 22 match rifle at 100 yards using aperture sights.

The Lyman insert set shown is one of the easiest for me to use. I need the heavy front apertures. I can't even see the thin crosshair inserts on the MVA and Pedersoli cards.

[Doc Highwall]

ColColt, maybe I did not explain it right. I am not talking about the I.D. of the aperture, I am talking about the width of the ring that makes up the aperture. Look at post #18 top row first insert vs. the last two on the right. Something in between these would be better.

Looking at these in your hand vs. 30”+ away make a big difference along with light conditions and back ground around the target.

[ColColt]

Doc-I see what you're saying...I misinterpreted. I guess to some degree it depends on individual eyes as EDG can attest.

[Doc Highwall]

I often here people say they cannot shoot with iron sights because of their age, I say bull ****. I think the real reason is they have never actually took the time to learn how to understand and use iron sights.

The drive to shoot Small-Bore gave me the desire to learn how to shoot using a aperture front sight. I already learned to shoot a M-14 with a post front sight. I had to change the front sight from the NM .062" wide to a regular M-14 battle sight that was over .070" wide making it easier to see for a longer time, and I used a .052" rear aperture.

I wrote about doing a test with my Anschutz 2002 CA air rifle here on CastBoolits in my 10 meter range. Using the rifle with a front and rear rest under controlled light conditions, I shot a lot of 10 shot groups with 1/4 minute increments of white between the aiming black and the inside of the aperture. This showed me what aperture size that I shot the best with under ideal light conditions. I then made up a index card showing apertures in 1/4 minuet increments. Now knowing what size aperture to use under ideal conditions, I only had to record what I used for a front and rear aperture along with the light direction and conditions in my shooting diary. Comparing the results from both practice and match results gave me a better insight as to what I needed to shoot my best.

A friend of mine just sent me the results from Tuesdays nights 100 yard Small-Bore prone match, 40 shots at 100 yards on the A-25 target. Because this is a fun league shooters can use either scope or iron sights and to keep older shooters shooting we even allow them to shoot in a F-Class group. At the end of the season the shooters are competing , scope, iron, and F-class, three separate classes.

Well the high F- Class shooter with IRON SIGHTS this is what he has shot so far for 4 matches. Look at his age!!!
400 - 34X...........(F) Class, average 399.75 for 4 matches. Sr. IRON 71 Years, 8 Months, 28 Days

[montana_charlie]

I see about three or four different sizes of rings on that card. Surely one would work well.
This set of inserts is available at Track of the Wolf. It is a clone of the set that used to be supplied with globe sights made by Smith Enterprise.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/fs-se-sl-insert_1.jpg

There are six 'lollipop' inserts and their outer diameters are all equal. It is only the aperture that differs between them.
I shoot a bullseye that is scaled to the official 1000 yard BPCR target. The bull on the 1000 yard target is 44 inches in diameter, so a 100 yard target is 4.4 inches.

When I sight on that 4.4" bull at 100 yards I use the fourth largest aperture (third from the right on the bottom part of the card). I call it 'Smith's #4'.
I get a good healthy ring of white surrounding the black bull inside the aperture.
If that ring of white is too thin (aperture too small for the target) it is tough to tell when the bull is centered in the aperture.

Since my 200 yard bull is 8.8 inches, and my 300 yard bull is 13.2 inches, the Smith's #4 insert is correct at all of those ranges.

Here's an example of the sight picture you are after.

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Diopter_sight_picture.jpg



If you require more detailed information on aperture sights, this is one source ...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-competition-iron-sights/

CM

[ColColt]

I often here people say they cannot shoot with iron sights because of their age, I say bull ****.

Well, Doc-I have to agree to an extent. This was a group with iron sights on a 45 Auto, 200 gr lead bullet courtesy of Accurate Molds behind 6 gr of Universal at about 10 yards. Shot this no long ago and I'm 67. That's 25 shots

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/My%20Targets/_DEF3788.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/My%20Targets/_DEF3788.jpg.html)

A picture is worth a thousand words, Charlie. That's what I was looking for and couldn't get in my mind that type of sight earlier. It appears it's a matter of matching the aperture up with the proper size bulls eye. Those apertures fit down in a slot on top of the globe sight?

[montana_charlie]

A picture is worth a thousand words, Charlie. That's what I was looking for and couldn't get in my mind that type of sight earlier. It appears it's a matter of matching the aperture up with the proper size bulls eye.
That's the ticket ...


Those apertures fit down in a slot on top of the globe sight?
Yes, they do.
When you see an insert set with half of the rim being thin and the opposite half (top half) being thick they are "Sharps" inserts. The Sharps-style globe sight has the verticle slot, with some form of keeper on top ... or a ring that screws into the globe body ... and the thick part of the rim sets on the shoulder of that slot.

The other aperture inserts you see (and there are a lot of similar but different styles) have two rectangular tabs on the sides which slip into slots milled into the sides of the globe's tube. They are also held in place with a threaded ring.


One tip for the Sharps inserts ...
If your globe sight uses a spring on top to retain the insert, it must contact the rim of the insert to keep it bottomed in the slot. Otherwise, the insert can dance around inside the slot during recoil.
That can put the insert in a slightly different place from one shot to the next.

If you file the top of the insert to remove an imperfection from twisting it off of the card, be very stingy about how much steel you file away.

CM

[ColColt]

What globe sight would you recommend and what brand apertures? Dummer than a bag of hammers about this and when I decided on sights I want to get the right one.

[montana_charlie]

What globe sight would you recommend and what brand apertures? Dummer than a bag of hammers about this and when I decided on sights I want to get the right one.
In my opinion, choosing a tang sight requires more 'care' than picking a globe sight.

There are two basic types ... those which are stationary, and those which are windage adjustable.
If you aren't shooting out very far, or if you choose a tang sight with a lot of windage adjustment, the stationary type is fine.
(Mine is stationary, and I have a Soule tang sight.)

If you opt for a windage adjustable sight - it would probably pay to get the best you can afford. That kind of mechanism needs to be well-built, and I can't advise you on that aspect.

You have to decide if you want a spirit level on it, or not.
With 'tall sights', canting the rifle has a measurable effect on impact point.
If you want a level, do you want it to be internal or external to the tube of the sight.
If external, do you want it removable?
(Mine is external and removable.)

Then, there is the question of 'finish'.
Some are simply blued, while others are case colored or accented with brass portions.

Those are the basic considerations.
Some more specialized globes have long tubes, or are welded on at a slight angle so they still look 'round' when the tang sight is getting to the top of the staff.
You will need to decide if that much specialization will ever be needed by yourself.

Smith Enterprise made my sight, but that was before they went to manufacturing exclusively for the military
So, while it is no longer available from most retailers, C. Sharps Arms still has it in their catalog. The inserts included look just like those I posted earlier.
My sight is case colored, but theirs looks to be blued.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/67/Globe-w-apertures-spirit-level.html

If I did not have this Smith globe, and needed an everyday globe sight that takes Sharps inserts, I wouldn't hesitate to take one of the Pedersoli models ( http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-accessori.asp/l_en/idt_10/accessories-front-sights-e-inserts-set.html ).
But, I would still acquire a set of these Smith's inserts to use in it.


If you have the idea that you are 'spinning your wheels' if you are not shelling out big bucks, the tang sight selections will make you start feeling some 'traction'.

CM

[ColColt]

This is something to smoke over for sure. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.From this link they indicate there are apertures included with this sight. You mention the Perdersoli globe. I suppose this one would work with either the Smith or Sharp inserts?

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_188/pre_0/accessories-front-sights-e-inserts-set-tunnel-sight-with-inserts-set.html

Or perhaps this one from C. Sharps with the inserts from Track of the Wolf as the inserts with this front sight doesn't look like the ones you posted earlier.

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/66/Globe-w-Apertures.html

[Don McDowell]

Keep in mind that if you're putting this globe on a Shiloh they have a 7/16 dovetail, the C Sharps is just a touch smaller, and the Pedersoli's , Uberti's and Armis sports use a 3/8's dovetail, and sometimes it's a metric 3/8's.

[ColColt]

I'm not sure what rifle it will be yet but I'll keep those thought in mind and thanks for the heads up. I may have forgotten about the variation in sizes.

[montana_charlie]

This is something to smoke over for sure. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.From this link they indicate there are apertures included with this sight. You mention the Perdersoli globe. I suppose this one would work with either the Smith or Sharp inserts?

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-accessorio.asp/l_en/idpr_188/pre_0/accessories-front-sights-e-inserts-set-tunnel-sight-with-inserts-set.html
I have the Smith insert set and a Pedersoli set, and they all fit the Smith sight okay. I feel certain it would work in reverse, as well.


Or perhaps this one from C. Sharps with the inserts from Track of the Wolf as the inserts with this front sight doesn't look like the ones you posted earlier.

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/66/Globe-w-Apertures.html
The website image of the inserts has the two end inserts 'clipped off'. Otherwise, it IS the Smith style set.
I am 90% certain that you would get a set (from C. Sharps) identical to TOTW set I linked to, with all twelve inserts.

Both of the globe sights you linked come without spirit levels on them.
If that would be your choice when buying time comes, that's perfectly fine.

It's good of Don to mention dovetail sizes. Since we have just been mulling over basic styles and their differences, I didn't think to mention that you will be looking for something that fits the gun you buy it for.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Winchester/Browning use the 3/8 dovetail as well.
It gets a bit frustrating , when you find a sight you really like, but the dovetail size is wrong for the rifle you want to put it on.

[ColColt]

Charlie-I have a set of inserts identical to the ones you mentioned in post #27. Will MVA's #113 globe work with those inserts? The globe you linked to earlier at C. Sharps apparently only comes with a 3/8" dovetail and if I'm not mistaken, Shiloh Sharps cut theirs .450" and that's the reason I am considering getting the #113 from MVA. This was the link to C. Sharps..

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/67/Globe-w-apertures-spirit-level.html

[MT Chambers]

I agree, spend more time and money selecting your Tang sight, the human eye will centre things without one screwing things up, both the globe in the tang sight and the bullseye in the aperture.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie-I have a set of inserts identical to the ones you mentioned in post #27. Will MVA's #113 globe work with those inserts?
Yes, they will fit in any "Sharps" style globe, and the MVA #111 and #113 are of that type.

CM

[Clay M]

I like Lee Shavers globe sights, nothing fancy just a bubble and inserts.