Load workup confusion - HELP!

[subsonic]

I have a Remington 700 5R Milspec .308. Ever since I bought it, I have wanted to really "work" a load for it, but the first loads I threw together shot well enough to do most of the things I require of it. The very first group I shot during cleaning and break-in was about 5/8" center to center....

This particular model of rifle is known for being VERY accurate out of the box, and I am not complaining.... BUT, I feel like there's a little magic in her yet that I haven't found.

Today I set out to really "work" loads. I shoot 5rd groups, not 3rd, as I have found I can get lucky 3 times, but not 5.

This rifle's barrel twist and chamber is designed around the 175gr Sierra Matchking (M118LR). I load those in Lapua brass, with Varget powder, and CCI 200 & Federal 210M primers.

The very first load I shot during break-in, was only 40gr of Varget with the CCI 200 primers and that same 175gr SMK. This is .30-30 speed. I only loaded those because I knew they were definitely safe and I needed to fire a bunch during break-in.

Today I decided to to try 42.5, 42.7, 43.0, 43.2 & 43.5 gr of Varget with the Fed 210M primers - 5 each. I also loaded up a few with 43gr of Varget and the CCI 200 primer to foul the barrel.

My Lapua brass is trimmed, has the flash holes de-burred, pockets cut, and has been VLD deburred. Using a .006" Redding shell-holder, brass is partially sized in a Redding Type-S full length bushing die (.330" bushing) without the expander button, then I use a Lyman M-Die that measures .3065" to expand the necks to a uniform size. This is to avoid pulling the neck off center. I have tried other bushings and not expanding at all, but neck tension is all over the place unless I size a few thou and expand it back. I'm sure if I neck -turned my brass that would change, but I'm too lazy to neck turn and the M-Die was on hand. A neck turning setup was not. Bullets are seated in a Forster Ultra-Micrometer seater to 2.800" to fit in the magazine.

So with the rifle mounted in a lead slead and doing my best to hold the crosshairs in the right place and squeeze the trigger, the groups below are what I got.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/BCF7730E-7283-4F44-BE39-D3B4E4A84389-1288-0000032D26E32EB5_zps1a09540e.jpg (http://s1179.photobucket.com/user/Dennis_Doza/media/BCF7730E-7283-4F44-BE39-D3B4E4A84389-1288-0000032D26E32EB5_zps1a09540e.jpg.html)

My procedure was to shoot one shot at each target going in order 42.5,42.7 and so on, then switch and go the other way, 43.5, 43.2, etc. I kept a hand on the barrel to monitor temp and did not let things get too hot.

When I was done, I hammered out the remaining 5 loads with 43gr and the CCI 200 primer to see if I could shoot a good group FAST with brass flying. That group turned out to be the best one at the top left of the target. Go figure.

So, what load would YOU go with and WHY? The target squares are 1/2".

[starmac]

My eyes are getting very bad, I don't even see the target, much less the groups. lol

[subsonic]

Pic not loading?

[subsonic]

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/C89A8479-1326-42D3-A0C7-A7AF4EFF973C-1288-000003DBADF24209_zps1d0966a9.jpg

[subsonic]

I was re-examining my notes, and saw that the "fouling" loads were with 43.5gr, not 43gr.... I'm going to re-shoot 43.5 and try 43.7, but this is getting pretty hot in the thicker (reduced capacity) Lapua brass.

[swheeler]

I wouldn't settle just yet, thats me though. I think I would have to try it as a single shot "just to see" what touching leade would do, which will be 2.9+ depending on your throat/rifle with that bullet, then maybe .005,.010 jump. Even with making it feed from mag seating depth can make a huge difference, find how long to touching and back up until it will just feed from mag, compare.

[375RUGER]

You didn't specify how far off the lands you are seating the SMK. Not that it always makes a difference, I seat mine to fit the mag of an AR10 and it shoots really well. But in a bolt gun I'd play with the OAL to see what happens.
I don't OCW or ladder test but what I understand is that each shot should be done with the barrel fairly cool. First shot, then how ever long it takes to walk down to the 100 or 200 yd line and back to mark your shot before firing the next shot. I wouldn't let the gun sit in the sun either. Reasoning is that the barrel should be in the same state for each and every shot. If you're going to do it the way you're doing it you might as well shoot each 5 shot group and let the barrel cool between groups.
Which charge weight gives you 100% density with the varget/smk combo? I find the varget to perform best when it is compressed a bit. That's when groups really settle in.
Don't know how well your barrel is broke in, but you might want to run just 1 dry patch down the bore every 5 shots to clear any excess residue.
If it was me based on your groups above. I'd go back and shoot 43.0, 43.1, 43.2-10 shot groups.

[subsonic]

Thanks for the input. I'm pretty stuck on keeping loads fitting in the magazine. I could seat out further if I used a meplat trimmer.... but don't own one or feel "tedious" enough to use one.

375RUGER, why do those loads look best to you? 43.5gr was a TINY group until shot 5 that landed high.

I was chronographing, but don't trust this chronograph now, as it was showning more variance than the groups would allow.

I threw powder with my Chargemaster, and will throw some charges with it and check it against my old scale in case that is what caused the velocity variations.

[Larry Gibson]

I suggest you continue to work "up" the load. That is still a mild load with Varget in the .308W with 175 MKs for that rifle. I use 44.5 gr in LC M852 cases and 45 gr in WW Plama cases in my M70 Target. I have measured the psi and those loads are below the SAAMI MAP for the .308W. I also load to 2.82 for magazine feeding. I also get the best accuracy at those levels.

Additionally I suggest using a regular front and rear sand bag set up for accuracy testing. The Lead Sled is good for what it's made for (reducing recoil) but is really not the best for accuracy testing or for zeroing for that matter. You should be putting 10 shots into not more than .75" with that rifle, that powder and that bullet at 100 yards. If not, something ain't right. If your groups were at 200 yards I'd consider them acceptable but they really should be better at 100 yards. Not being critical just trying to help is all.

Larry Gibson

[subsonic]

Larry, I agree that things should be better. I just didn't want to sound like I was crying too much over sub-moa groups lest I get a long string of "hell, that's good 'nuff!" posts in this thread. Most of the groups, flyers included, measure .7ish.

[375RUGER]

When I posted earlier I had only looked up loads in one manual and the max was listed at 43.2g. That and the fact you stated they were looking hot beyond that is why I recommended a revisit to those loads. What Larry said + I took a look at the hodgdon data and see you can get 45g under that bullet. If you are seeing signs of the load being hot before you compress the powder that is the same I have seen in 155 and 168s.
If you want to find out what a 100% load density is for your case and the depth you seat your bullet, drill the primer pocket through, seat a bullet and then fill up the case through the primer pocket till the inside is full then dump onto your powder scale.
I wouldn't stop until you are satisfied that you are getting what you want out of the rifle/load.
Also, I load to 2.815-2.820" for feeding through a magazine.

[subsonic]

The Lapua brass has the smallest internal capacity of any brand of .308, even including LC. Hornady has the largest capacity followed soon after by Winchester. That seems to factor into what I am seeing.

In the past with a different chronograph (before I shot it....) I could see velocity differences from WW, to LC, to Lapua.

[subsonic]

The current plan is to try 43.5 again and go up a little. I may play with primers.

Larry, what primer do you like for this application?

[Larry Gibson]

WLRs have always done well for me in my match loads for the M1A and M70 Target rifles.

These days with the panic buying and shortages one may have to just use what one can get.

Larry Gibson

[subsonic]

I have a few of just about everything, but mostly CCI200 and Fed 210M. If you think the WLR are worth trying, I'll give it a go.

[captaint]

I have, for years used the WLR primers in my .308 hunting loads. 47.5 grs of old WW748 in WW brass and we are indeed good to go. I don't even remember having to look far for a load in my Rem 700 in .308 Win. This rifle and caliber are certainly all I ever needed for hunting in this part of the nation. Always 150 gr bullets and crazy accuracy. What a combination !!!!! Mike

[Love Life]

Hmmm.

Push out farther, lose the lead sled, and shoot for groups with the loads you deem best from the 100 yd shoot. .7 is a tad large for 100 yd groups from that 308.

I found CCI LRP and Tula LRMP to give me the best accuracy, with the least amount of ES and SD.

Some prefer the ladder, some don't. I do.
My two most accurate loads in my 308 are 44 gr of BLC-2 and 46 gr of BLC-2. I get sticky bolt lift beyond that.

I shoot the 175 gr SMK out of LC LR brass seated to 2.810. I'll look at my notes when I get home.

[gon2shoot]

I'll second trying the WLP, some of my guns just like them better

[Love Life]

One question here, and I do not mean to insult you. Are all those flyers called flyers?

I just have to reiterate using sand bags and hold as rock solid as you can without muscling the weapon. If you decide to roll with a bi-pod, make sure you load it. I'm not sure how stable the lead sled is during recoil (does it bounce).

At 100 yds you should be looking at dang near a ragged hole with the 308 Winchester, those bullets, that powder, and that rifle. Keep working up as it will get better.

I'm digging into my bag of tricks this evening, and I'll PM you with what I have. If you have longer ranges to shoot at, once you get a better zero, go ahead and kiss 100 yds goodbye. It is a waste of bullets and powder with that gun's capabilities.

[subsonic]

Not called flyers. Lead slead doesn't bounce.

I don't own a better rest. I have always used a bipod and rear bag before for this rifle (often prone) and do not notice much difference in groups.

Also, 100yds is all that is available at this time.

[subsonic]

One thing I need to look at is case necks. I can feel a difference in seating force required at the bottom of the press stroke like there is a "tight spot" like a donut. I don't think it's powder compression I'm feeling, but I guess it could be.

[subsonic]

I decided to go ahead and go up with the powder charge.

I did everything the same, except sized with the .010" Redding shellholder this time (instead of .006") and loaded 5ea 43.7, 44, 44.3, 44.5, 44.7gr Varget with FED210M primers.

I checked each charge I threw with the Chargemaster on my old mechanical scale. They all matched.

If the rain holds off I'll shoot them tonight after work.

[swheeler]

SS those 210M primers are Fed instead of cci

[grampa243]

One thing I need to look at is case necks. I can feel a difference in seating force required at the bottom of the press stroke like there is a "tight spot" like a donut. I don't think it's powder compression I'm feeling, but I guess it could be.

subsonic for your necks i would look in to annealing. it's has given me much better sizing and seating consistency.

as to you shooting one of each and then going back though. i'm not sure that is giving you a true test of repeatability. unless you use a thermometer to make sure the barrel is the same temp every time.

starting from a cool not cold barrel and shooting 5 will tell you how that load will do for repeat shooting. you may find one of your loads will close right up. or you'll find that one gets hot faster and won't group good at all.

good luck. testing is sometime the best part of loading your own :)

[DougGuy]

You guys know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but I will share my experience fwiw..

I worked over a pre-warning Ruger M77 in .308, and got it down to covering a 3 shot group fired from prone with a guitar pick @200yds. I did all you could do to one, pillar bedded/steel bedded, lot of work but it paid off handsomely.

From this process the things that stand out as being the most significant in reducing groups were lapping the rear of the locking lugs, lapping and steel bedding the scope rings, but the thing that did the most good was loading a dummy round with no crimp, closing the bolt on it, open the bolt handle then using a cleaning rod to push it out and setting the seating die to that dummy round, and turning the die down about 1/2 turn which gave it about .020" freejump. That really clinched the -1/4MOA group size.

Loading fire formed brass, weighing each charge, the rounds that seated the boolit easy, I set aside. The rounds that seated the boolit hard, I set aside, and only took the ones that felt consistent neck tension in the case. Then out of those the ones that the collet crimp was right on the case mouth I set aside, and the ones that were 1/16" down on the case neck I set aside. Out of 100 charged cases, I came away with about 30 that were median of the group with neck tension, crimp location, etc. Then I chambered each one of those. The ones that chambered easy, I set aside, the ones that the bolt was hard to close on I set aside, and ended up with 15rds that on a cold barrel, first shot, would take a golfball @200yds without fail.

This is my deer rifle, it showed an early preference for 41.5gr of H4895, absolutely refused to shoot boattails well, but feed it 180gr plain base, now you got something to smile about..

Edit: I posted this for the benefit of the OP, to illustrate that there are things which affect groups outside of how much powder, what boolit, etc. There are things like culling loads like I describe here that will give you the best rounds out of a given number of rounds loaded, those rounds will make a much better group than firing every round you load. All that does is guarantee you will have flyers.

And yes, shoot 5 shots at the same point of aim then move to the next for the next group rather than one shot at each marker.

If you want to check your lugs, remove the bolt and color the rear of the lugs with a sharpie, put the bolt back in and close it on an empty chamber. Pull back hard on the bolt handle and wiggle it up and down just a little bit. Remove the bolt and look to see how much sharpie ink got removed. What you are wanting to see, is that it got removed from both lugs, preferrably evenly. If it only removed the ink from one lug, that is a built-in inconsistency that needs to be addressed as it will open up groups considerably.

[subsonic]

TYPO, but yes you are correct. Fed 210M

[375RUGER]

One thing I need to look at is case necks. I can feel a difference in seating force required at the bottom of the press stroke like there is a "tight spot" like a donut. I don't think it's powder compression I'm feeling, but I guess it could be.

Anneal case necks for consistency. Some recommend to anneal for precision every other loading. Every 2 or 3 should be good.
.

When seating to magazine length the bullet has a real jump to the rifling. When I started down the road searching for "the load" in my AR10, along the way I discovered that when the bullet makes that long jump it must do it straight. I never had to pay much attention to this before when I was loading for single shots because I could seat that bullet right up to the lands and the short jump didn't matter too much. Do you have a way to measure the runout at the ogive?
.
forgot to say seat the bullet half way and the lower the ram and rotate the case 180* and finish seating. Yes, even with the precision seater.

[subsonic]

Should not have wasted my time or components....

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/0EBB5C8B-BDC8-4357-9C9F-9072249DFFF1-2331-000005C68D4070A2_zpsf1d19fae.jpg

Anybody wanna buy a rifle?

[Love Life]

Actually, I do need a Remington 700 donor for a build... shoot me a price.

Before you sell it though:
What stock is it in?
Are all the screws torqued in tight?
is it bedded? I'm assuming not.
What did you shoot from today? Lead sled, bags, bi-pod?
What shooting position?
What scope?

Seriously though I would be interested depending on price...

One more thing to consider. What is the barrel twist? I shoot a 1 in 12 with 175 gr SMK and at 100 yds I keep under an inch. Usually around .5-.7 MOA. However, at 200 and 300 I get half to 1/4 MOA. No BS on that one. The SMK out of my 1 and 12 likes to play nice at longer distances...

[subsonic]

$900+ shipping.

It's in an HS Precision Sendero type stock with the full length aluminum bedding block. This is a non-catalog factory package gun. 700 5r Milspec.

Has about 600 rds through it.

Sled still, but I have shot this rifle enough from bags and a bipod to know that the sled is not making things worse. The group size is too consistent at .7xx except for a couple of ocassional larger groups. I bought the sled to see if it would help.

I'm going to try some Federal brass I have laying around and if that doesn't DRASTICALLY improve matters, it's gone.

[Love Life]

Hmmm. I agree it should shoot better. If you can find a longer range, maybe give it try there before sending her down the road?

How is your shooting position? Is it solid? Good cheek weld, good eye relief, are you reaching for the scope?
Breathing?

Have you tried the 168's? Any better there?

[subsonic]

Hmmm. I agree it should shoot better. If you can find a longer range, maybe give it try there before sending her down the road?

How is your shooting position? Is it solid? Good cheek weld, good eye relief, are you reaching for the scope?
Breathing?

Have you tried the 168's? Any better there?

No luck on longer range....

Position is pretty good. Even when I purposely have a BAD position it still shoots .7s. I was pretty happy with the rifle for most of the time I've owned it, as it is still the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. It always did what I wanted it to do, but I always felt like it should do better. I never tried too hard to work up a load, except for a hunting load that never really came around with 180gr Accubonds. It would shoot 1.25", which is ok to hunt with, but I would expect that from a much LESS EXPENSIVE, much LIGHTER rifle.

I was just going over old groups, load notes, etc and see that the best groups I ever shot with it were very early on. The only thing I can find that is different is that I used to use some crappy LC brass from mixed year headstamps (was the 2008 run on components when I got it) and then "upgraded" to this Lapua brass when I wore it out. I am on a different lot number for bullets now as well, but I have tried other brands and styles of bullets.

[subsonic]

Well, the x-mark pro trigger in this rifle has been flaky from the day I got it. I took it all apart soon after getting the rifle and worked it over after loosening all of the adjustment screws (potted in with some glue goo). I set everything to 2.5lb and the best "safe" setting I could get with sear engagement. It has never been very consistent no matter what I do and I've worked on that trigger a couple of times since then. Some shots feel like 2.5lb and others feel like "did I take the safety off?". So I ordered a Timney today. I also "match prepped" 36 once fired Federal cases. You know the drill, trimmed square, VLD Deburred, chamfered, deburr flash hole, cut primer pocket. Sized with the .004" Redding shell holder since these were not fired in this rifle. Used the Redding Type-S FL die with .330" neck bushing and .3065" Lyman M-die.

When the trigger gets here and I've installed it, I will go try 25 rds with the Federal brass.

Stupd question: I have read several different torque specs for the bottom metal screws when using HS stocks with the aluminum bedding block. Anybody know which spec is correct? I've been torquing to 35inlb.

[subsonic]

SUCCESS!!
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/F60481EE-A714-474F-9AEC-C6ABC575F1B9-469-000000F61E687DA2_zps465e1e82.jpg

Stuff I changed...
Timney straight trigger @ 2lb.
Re-torqued bottom metal during trigger install to 65inlb(!)
Federal brass instead of Lapua
Shot from bi-pod and bean bag on bench.
Dry fired a LOT between shots.

I want to re-test some loads around 43.5gr, as those were the last group I shot (went down from 44.3) and did not shoot one shot of each charge and rotate like last time.

I think the dry firing might have been the fix...:oops:

[Love Life]

That 43.5 gr load looks really good. Will it shoot that group consistently? The 44 gr load also looks good. No vertical stringing so shooter error may have opened it up, or slight wind changes (not demeaning you).

Were you still shooting the 175 SMK?

[subsonic]

Yes, 175SMK.

That flyer on the 43.7 was me not used to the new Timney. I am going to try loads around 43.5 again, as I noticed my shoulder pressure was a variable and eliminated it on the last group.

No wind worth mentioning @ 100yds.

[Love Life]

Have you shot fast and hot yet?

[subsonic]

Still trying to walk, not ready to run just yet...

[Love Life]

Check out the Berger 175 gr tactical OTM bullets. They are supposed to be much better going through the transonic barrier than the 175 GR match king. Plus they are designed to be loaded to SAAMI OAL and still achieve cutting edge accuracy.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres an article on your gun i saved because i thought about getting one. Looks like there typicaly a 1/2-3/4 inch gun and your right in that ball park. Might be that its just not going to do any better. Thats sure nothing that would make me stick my nose up in the air though. http://www.snipercentral.com/milspec5r.phtml

[Love Life]

That rifle is a great base rifle to get into longer range shooting and learn the ropes. Once you tired of the mediocre barrel and stock, you can upgrade the bejesus out of the gun to hang with just about any tactical type rifle made.

Get the action blueprinted, screw on a new tube with a better chamber, get a better stock, etc.