Realistic 30-30 accuracy?

[blixen]

I shot a couple dozen loads of SR4759 pushing an 185 gr. Lee Boolit (.311) out of my old Mod. 94 yesterday. Though I use 20 gr. of 4759 with good accuracy in my mil-surps, I've never used in 30-30--but I'm running out of other powders.

I had to use the 100 yard range and I've seldom load developed at that distance. I was a bit disappointed with my 3"-5" groups. (My loads ranged from 16gr to 18gr--but that seemed a little stiff for the 30WCF.)

I was using a 110-year old rifle with a homemade brass front blade and a Lyman receiver sight, shooting off sandbags.
The rifleman (me) has 60-year-old eyes.
Mod. 94's are equipped with something less that match triggers.
The wind was snapping the flag and alternating between 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock.
The bullets were inexpertly (me, again) cast from range-lead with aluminum gas checks.

Thinking it over, I don't feel so bad and look forward to trying some lighter 4759 loads. (the rifle loves Red Dot and 2400 plinking loads). In fact, when I think of how small that 6" bull was at 100 against a fuzzy front blade, I'm kind of amazed at what the human eye can do.

Seriously, what kind of 100 yard, open-sights accuracy can a guy hope for out of a Mod. 94?

[yooper]

For just a "throw something together to shoot" load, I think you're doing OK with the accuracy you got. With a receiver sight and off bags like you were shooting, you should be able to beat that 3"-5" range with some load tinkering, but not a lot. That would keep your shots in the vital area of a whitetail and "minute of deer" is about as good as you should expect. Just my $.02 worth.
yooper

[DaveCampbell]

Barring anything within the rifle (ringed barrel, excessive head space and so forth) a careful handloader should be able to put them all into less than 2 inches. I have a cast-bullet-rabbit load for my .30-30s that gives me a one holer at 25 yards in my G2 Contender pistol, but I have not tried it in my 112-year-old '94 yet, nor have I tried it at 100 yards. I, too, have six-decade-old eyes, and at one time I was able to get 1 1/4-inch groups with factory loads in the rifle, but now the best I can do is about 1 3/4 inches on a good day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

We've played this game before where you come in wanting all my gun rights and then settle for a few so that you can come back later. Let me make this perfectly clear: I will not surrender so much as one more millimeter of ground concerning my right to keep and bear arms. What part of "shall not be infringed" is ambiguous?

[jhalcott]

I have 2 Contender 14" barrels on hand now and have had or used other 30-30's in the past. From MY experience You can/will get different results from each gun. The 30-30 in a NEW Marlin may have a tighter bore then an older one. My 2 30-30 barrels will not shoot the same loads with equal accuracy. One is a 1/12", twist the other is 1/10". What is your planned USE for this gun? How tight does it HAVE to group to satisfy your needs.
with the conditions you cite(high winds, poor sights, etc.) i think you are doing pretty good. Wait for a "Blue bird Day" and try another round. Calm wind, less tension of unknown results May result in better target scores.

[TXGunNut]

That's about all I expect, I try to shoot my iron sight leverguns @ 50 yards to save eyestrain, just a handful of birthdays shy of you. I have a .32WS load that stays well under 2" @ 50 but until I figure out how to match apertures to my eyeglasses I don't accomplish much @ 100 yds w/ iron sights under most conditions.

[fecmech]

I think that realistic 100 yd accuracy with your set up(receiver peep, stock gun) is a 3" 100 yd AVERAGE. I know everyone has a wallet group of 3-5 shots into an inch that he shot with his 94. That said in the real world I don't think there are very many 94's or men shooting them with irons that can put together five, 5 shot 2" or less 100 yd groups or a couple 10 shot 2" groups IMO.

[blixen]

Thanks for the feedback--I added a bad photo of my 94.

Yes, at 50 and 25 yards, I get really confidence-building groups, especially with this boolit and Red Dot and 2400. But at a 100, it's a new ballgame. By the way, one of my 3 shot groups was 2.75" at 100. But that was one out of several others that were spoiled by un-called flyers.
My intended uses for the rifle/load? Just what I'm doing--relaxing, throwing lead downrange and trying to make little groups in paper. I also take the 94 with me camping the desert with the hopes of a shot at a jack wabbit or coyote (though this isn't exactly an explosive varmint load.)

[MostlyLeverGuns]

There are several questions to consider. Were your groups round or did they have a vertical or horizontal tendency? Vertical might be powder position or indicate a need to adjust powder charge. Horizontal could be wind or hold. Round thin forearms are very difficult to sandbag consistently so be careful with position and tension of your hold. MY 63 year old eyes need help with iron sights by using a target that is other than black. For group shooting I use a medium red square about 8.5 x 8.5 from red bulk 8.5 x 11 printer paper (Office Depot, OfficeMax, Amazon). Also smoking syour front sight provides a sharper sight picture. I have found side glare on a brass bead or blade can change impact a couple inches. With some fussing, 2 -2.5 inch groups should be attainable with a decent Model 94. Good Luck.

[Mk42gunner]

In my opinion, 3-5" groups at 100 yards, with a fuzzy front sight, isn't bad.

If you want something that will really help, find some way to sharpen your focus on the front sight. Maybe try a cheap pair of reading glasses under you safety glasses, it has worked for me.

And like our new member MostlyLeverGuns said, blacken your front sight.

Robert

[pls1911]

A smaller peep hole will help as well.
You may try harder lead (heat treated) and reloader 7.
Micro groove and ballard rifled Mrlins as well as TC contenders will throw <3" pretty consistently without too much fuss.
I used 25 grains reloader 7, Seaco 315 or lyman 31141, sized .312 and heat treated to 20+bhn, and sorted to +/- .2 grain, lubed with whatever is in the luber.
Also I've started applying a thin ovecoat with JPW/LLA, but this is probably overkill.
Depending on gun and barrel length, these run between 1900 and 2000 fps, and drop whatever they hit, and always leave a clean barrel.

[truckjohn]

If we were talking about optical sights on a modern bolt gun - it would be one thing.... We aren't....

Iron sights are really nice for hunting... but terrible for working up loads... My issue is that I can't shoot Iron sights well enough to really distinguish between a "Great load" and an "OK load" when working up loads... I need all the help I can get...

Even if I am going to hunt with iron sights... I try to work up loads with a good high power target scope with fine crosshairs... I get the load all sorted out, then switch back to iron sights or a low power Hunting scope with nice, fat crosshairs....

The other issue is one of pure mechanics... When you have tight barrel bands, wood forearms, and tube magazines full of ammo hanging off the barrel - it can cause some weird behavior as the barrel heats up.. Shooting cast certainly slows this down... but it still happens after a while... Be sure you shoot slow and allow LOTS of time for the barrel to cool between shots... 5 minutes isn't too much time between shots... Make sure you have a 22 with you so you can plink away while waiting for your rifle to cool down...

Thanks

[fecmech]

I have wondered also about saving on eye strain and boolits, by shooting at 50 yards with another paper set at 100 yards behind the 50 yard target , to record/measure that group.
I did that a number of years ago using a Ransom rest with targets at 25 and 50 yds to catch the same groups. It was a real eye opener for me. What showed up was that the really tight clusters at 25 yds did slightly more than double going to 50 yds. What was interesting was that anything that was even just a bit out of the main clump at least tripled the group size at 50. It seemed any outlier was basically leaving the group and leaving quick! I've seen the same thing with 50 yd groups that I shoot at home and then go to the club for the hundred and 200 yd ranges. If the 50 yd group is a little ragged (not round and tight) it will more than double at 100.

I also did a test last year with my T22 .22 rifle. Using good ammo on a calm day I shot some groups at 100 yds using my 4 power scope. I then took the scope off and used the Peep sight that came with the gun to shoot some more groups. The peep sights added about an inch to my average group size at 100 yds. I had done the same thing at 50 yds at home with almost no difference between scope and peep.

[Char-Gar]

You said realistic, I suppose that means truthful. A Winchester 94 in 30-30 is a 3 to 4 MOA firearms with the rifle doing better than the carbine. Now here are the parameters.

1. I am talking ten shot groups, day in and day out. I am not talking 5 shot groups, 3 shot groups or the great group a fellow got one day. I am talking on demand shooting.

2. The groups will all open up and the rounds shift back in the magazine tube. For accuracy testing single load them into the chamber.

3. Don't let the barrel get hot, take your time. If the barrel is too hot to touch, don't shoot it.

4. Many do better if you rest your hand on the front bag and put the rifle in your hand.

5. Cast bullet will shoot every bit as good as best jacketed loads.

With the age of your rifle, front sight and a stiff wind, I think you did just fine. A better front sight, less wind and some attention to the details will probably reduce the groups a smidge, but these are not target rifles and you have more than enough accuracy to do anything the rifle was designed to do. Keep up the good shooting.

PS: This is a little picky but I have noticed lately that the definition of "iron sights" seems to be non-optical sights. In traditional riflecraft, iron sights are the barrel mounted open sights that come from the factory. You have a receiver or peep sight on that rifle and is not an "iron" sight. Peep/Receiver sights can and will produce groups as small as an optical sight in the hands of a good rifleman. You can also do good work with iron/barrel/open sights, but they are slower and groups will open up a bit. Still they will kill plenty of game at reasonable distances, and that is what they were designed to do.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Why not 1 1/2" @ 100 yards, with a peep, 31141 , varget & match prepped cases off sandbags on a sturdy bench ? Or try your vavorite powder between 4895 and H414. Run about 1950 fps with very good grouping,<2" @100 yards.
No leading, nothing exotic except good prep & reloading procedures, start with a clean SR-1 @ 100 with a big backer to get in the ballpark, adjust to POA & shoot a 6 o'clock hold. A tang sight will get you another 50 yards (and larger group). M94, can't tell you about micro groove guns.

BvT

[gon2shoot]

I still hunt with a 30-30 (Win. and Marlin), what happens at the bench with paper targets don't impress me much. With my failing eyes, a shot under 100yds is doable with either gun. Never shot for groups at a deer.

[TXGunNut]

My open sight 94's don't hold me back much, presbyopia does. That, and being a little hardheaded. I won't scope a 94, even an AE. If I want to hunt with a scoped levergun (and I do!) there are a few Marlins around here with compact scopes that shoot nearly as well as a bolt gun. My 94's are eye candy, toys, projects, whatever...but they almost never go hunting. I enjoy taking them over to the 50 yard range and just banging around for awhile. Chances are I'll still shoot smaller groups than the newb on the next bench with his scoped tacticool MSR.

[Ernest]

I would be very happy with 5 " groups with iron sights and eyes approaching 3 score years. Think about it , properly sighted in, the rifle's the mechanical accuracy will keep every bullet at 2.5 inches or less from the point of aim. that is about the width of 3 of my fingers. That is not very far.

[RPRNY]

3"-5" groups consistent at 100 yards means you have a reliable hunting rifle and load for hogs, whitetail and mule deer, as well the aberage black bear. Anything tighter is nice, but not necessary for hunting within that range with the 30-30.

With 35 grs Leverevolution Powder and the Hornady 160 gr FTX I can do 5"-6" groups consistently at 200 yards with a Williams peep and Skinner front blade. Just. At a bench. In good weather. With no wind to speak of. I wouldn't be able to judge 200 yards in the wild and I wouldn't take a shot on medium game at 200 yards if I could because I don't think I would nail 3"-5" under those circumstances. I zero my 30-30 for 100 yards and might hold 2" high for 150 yard shot but in the Northeast where I mainly hunt, shots are under 100 yards.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Silly shooter! One shoots groups to establish an accurate load. Otherwise, close your eyes, hold your nose and just buy ammo from wally.

BvT

[truckjohn]

The thing that surprised me (Though I suppose it shouldn't...) is how well the "Average" 30-30 lever gun can shoot with it's favorite ammo...

For example... Hornady Leverevolution ammo shoots right around 1.5" in my 30-30's.... My buddies who bought the special factory built Marlins of 5-10 years ago purpose built for Lever-evolution ammo were getting ~3/4" groups with the stuff.... so the rifle is in fact capable of it...

The limiting factor really is the sights and ability of a shooter to hold groups in a position.... Shooting on the bench over bags with high power optics is a great way to establish what the GUN can do... but the old fashioned Plinking / Fun shooting is a better way to keep the Shooter in practice... and unfortunately - that's the sort of thing that's being pushed out of shooting... The Fun Stuff that got us excited about shooting in the first place....

Thanks

[KCSO]

In an average levergun I look for around 3" at 100 yards and 1/2 that in a good tuned levergun. In a T/C bull barreled single shot with a 3x9 scope I have shot below an inch with good cast loads and i was trying for a 1/2" group.

[northmn]

Ed Harris on the other Cast Bullet site tried some of the old classics like the 95 Winchester and a couple of others, and found with factory loads that about a 4" group was common. Knew a gunsmith that sighted in 94's but shot slow and let the barrel cool between shots as he stated the barrel bands can cause havoc ( he was paid to sight them in not modify them). He would take out several rifles and alternate shooting them. My old Marlin required a bit of forestock loosening to get to shoot well as it wanted to walk to the right. Have not seen any comment here I would really debate. Some claim groups of a little larger than an inch but for most of us, even with a scope, 3" or less would be pretty acceptable. I guess I maybe do not expect as much out of a lever gun as I should, but find that they deliver minute of deer adequately at the ranges I shoot deer. Another point is that I used to shoot a lot of offhand competition with muzzle loaders. Some of the shooters claiming great bench rest groups were lucky to hit the paper offhand at 100 yards. I do not carry a bench rest with me in the woods but have shot a lot of deer with improvised rests, like X sticks.

DP

[roberto mervicini]

It depend from the rifle and the person using it. Set up with peep I find a little more accurate than buck horn, however at 100 rested it should work inside 2 to 3" .

[searcher4851]

3" at 100 yards is all that I require from my 94's. I know they are capable of it, so if it's not happening, I figure it's me or the load. Seems like it's usually me.

[blixen]

I didn't expect such a response. Tnx. I plan on blackening my front sight, carefully loading another 100 rounds and trying again as soon as possible. I may drop back to 50 yards for load development, before I take on 100 again.
BTW, I'm lubing with 45/45/10 Alox/wax/thinner. I'm using 4759 because I'm about out my usual powders and the stores are cleaned out.

[Lonegun1894]

I get the occasional 1-1.5" group, but usually 2-2.5" at 100yds with my M94. Now on bad days, that opens up to 3-4", but even the bad days are good enough to put a deer or hog in the freezer, so anything better than that is just a bonus.

[kir_kenix]

My best shooting 94 was built in the mid '50's and wears unmarked receiver sights. From solid bench, with the correct bag on a rest, I'm very happy with 3" groups. Offhand, I'm content to put them all on a paper plate (deer vital dimensions). I've shot a few wallet groups that measure less than half my regular bench shot average...but they are NOT the norm. Remember, these are hunting guns...not benchrest guns. Whenever I hear about people shooting consistent 1" groups from a 94, I just roll my eyes.

I think you are doing really well, especially considering the limited load development and the conditions. Have fun pumping lead down range and loading for your fine rifle.

[dverna]

I didn't expect such a response. Tnx. I plan on blackening my front sight, carefully loading another 100 rounds and trying again as soon as possible. I may drop back to 50 yards for load development, before I take on 100 again.
BTW, I'm lubing with 45/45/10 Alox/wax/thinner. I'm using 4759 because I'm about out my usual powders and the stores are cleaned out.

50 yards is to get the gun shooting POI close to POA. Load development at 50 yards is a waste of time. If you get a good groups at 50 you still need to test it at 100 (or longer range). As has been stated, groups really open up as distance increases and it is NOT linear.

I also do all my load development with a scope. It is just so much easier and if I get a "flier" I know it is not a sight issue but a true load issue.

I agree with others here about 3-5" groups being a lot more "normal" for a 94 than under 2". Heck, there are a lot of scoped bolt guns that will not hold under 2" consistently - but no one wants to man up to that after spending $1000+ on a rifle and scope.

You will kill a lot of game with a 4 MOA rifle if you don't try to be Davey Crocket and try for neck shots.

[northmn]

50 yards is to get the gun shooting POI close to POA. Load development at 50 yards is a waste of time. If you get a good groups at 50 you still need to test it at 100 (or longer range). As has been stated, groups really open up as distance increases and it is NOT linear.

I also do all my load development with a scope. It is just so much easier and if I get a "flier" I know it is not a sight issue but a true load issue.

I agree with others here about 3-5" groups being a lot more "normal" for a 94 than under 2". Heck, there are a lot of scoped bolt guns that will not hold under 2" consistently.
50 yards may be OK for those that only shoot up close, but I can agree with this statement fully. You will do better at less than 50 ayrds with a rifle sighted in at 100 yards than you probably will if you have to take a longer shot with a rifle sighted in at 50 yards. Used to read about how you could sight in at 25 and be point on at some longer range. Works in theory maybe but in practice all it was good for was to get on paper at longer ranges. Sometimes I have had to use a fairly large paper. There is also a lot to be said for sighting in cold. Make sure the rifle shoots where you want it with a "cold" barrel or one that has not been fired recently. I ahve seen more than one lever gun that likes to walk a bit, even after taking Bill's excellent advice. 94 or 336 barrels are hardly bull barrels.

DP

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The "fix" for improving lever gun accuracy is well established. There have been discussions here within the last 2-3 years. It works and it is easy.

BvT

[imashooter2]

My Marlin 30AS is a 2.75 inch rifle with my very best handloads and a trifle over that with factory. My 1894C does 3.5 to 4 inches. Those are all 5 shots at 100 yards. I read lots of stories about MOA or less lever actions, but I never see them shooting at the ranges I visit.

[badbob454]

Winchester guys don hate me .. I have shot 3" groups or less with a marlin microgroove barrel inside a tennis ball bullseye every shot with a 3x9 scope 100 yds fmj bullets (didn't cast back then)I had a Winchester I couldn't hit the target
but once in 5 shots , same ammo ,same scope ,so your old eyes , I would say are doing excellent with iron sites just saying different rifles shoot differently and I would recommend a scope temporarily to work up a load then switch back,....disclaimer this was one Winchester and does not mean the marlin is a better rifle , just my experience..

[Garyshome]

Interesting philosophy, kind of tough hitting a deer that way though.

[Garyshome]

Silly shooter! One shoots groups to establish an accurate load. Otherwise, close your eyes, hold your nose and just buy ammo from wally.

[NickSS]

I have been shooting 30-30 rifles for over 45 years and mostly with reciever sights and a front bead sight. My eyes are getting poorer so my groups have suffered some of late but I have done enough shooting to know the potential of my rifles and loads. On the average with a good load and cast bullets I have shot many 10 shot hundred yard groups with 94 winchesters in the 2 to 2.5 inch range. The same loads when shot at 200 yards print groups of 4 to 5 inch groups. Interestingly my cast loads turn in better groups at both ranges than any jacketed loads I ever developed by something like 10 to 15% smaller. I do not know why. I routinly shoot a Pedersoli 30-30 rolling block I have in 200 yard silhouette matches at my club and have had good success with it. That rifle actually shoots better than a 94 lever action. 1.5 moa is average group size with it.

[Canuck Bob]

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/accu.htm

This is a good link were a guy takes the 30-30 peep sight rifle and cast up a notch or two. His 4 part series on the 94 is both informative and fun. the above link is part 2.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice article Canuck. It certainly brings to light the utility of peep sights. Let me add the following from my experience of shooting peep sights on the M-1, M-14, M-16 and various civilian rifles.

I've been shooting Model 94s for about as much time as NickSS has been and I've seen a few that wouldn't hold 4 to 5" at 100 yards and a few that were close to MOA rifles. Barrel quality and wear, forarm binding, rounds in the magazine and what not all either contribute to or detract from their ultimate accuracy. That's all been said above so let me move on to my main point on accuracy with 30/30s.

Vision is pretty important in the accuracy game and a scope will certainly enhance it, but most 30/30s can't or won't ever wear a scope sight so an aperture sight is the best option for most 30/30 shooters. There are two components in the proper use of any iron sight and those are "sight alignment" and "sight picture." While this is probably old knowledge for most members here, let me emphasize it again as it can cure a lot of those flyers and open groups. As a firearms instructor for both police and the military I found this to be one of the main reasons for poor shooting with iron sights.

1. Sight alignment is critical and any error here introduces an angular error into the equation. You can define it by saying the front sight is in the middle of the rear sight without any reference to a target. The eye will, in most cases, align the front sight in the center of an aperture and thus the reputation of peep sights being more accurate than barrel mounted buckhorns or military style sights such as on Mausers or 1903 Springfields. Focusing your eye on the front sight is the key to maintaining this alignment. It is important to see the front sight sharply and accept the fact that your aperture and your target will be blurred somewhat. The human eye is like a camera lense. It has a depth of field and you can only focus on one point at a time. The front sight is your friend in the accuracy game. Focus on it and allow the target to be a bit blurry. This changes when you use an aperture front sight in addition to the aperture rear sight, but that's outside this post.

2. Sight picture is merely maintaining good sight alignment and placing the front sight on the part of the target you want to hit. An error here is not angular and thus does not increase with distance. For target shooting at bullseyes, I zero my sights so that I can hold at the bottom of the bullseye and the boolits impact the center or 10/X ring. This gives me a more precise aiming point and it is popular with most of the military shooting teams. This is often called a 6 O'Clock hold.

3. In order to establish a good sight picture, I like a blade or post front sight that is as square as possible on the top and blackened to prevent glare. A wider than normal sight is my preference. Depending on barrel length, I like something around .08 inches in width. Fine sights like the old 1903 Springfield sights can induce a bit of eye strain for us older shooters. The diameter of the rear aperture should be variable if possible so as to compensate for various light conditions, sight radius and the shooter's eye. Lyman sights come with two aperture inserts so you have an option of three diameter sizes. Small, medium and a ghost ring without the inserts installed.

4. Presbyopia (inability to focus up close) is a fact of life for most of us past 45 or so. Next time you are at the optician's, explain to the doctor that you need a set of shooting glasses and that you need to have them focus on your front sight. Measure that distance before going in and look for an average distance between your rifles. He can adjust the prescription to help you out so that you can see that front sight clearly without eye strain. Being in the Army, the optician always made on my request such a pair of glasses with tempered polycarbonate lenses and flat temple to fit under ear muffs or radio headsets. With such a prescription I can see just fine at distance and I normally default to them for driving, hunting and typing this on the computer. The cost of a good set of shooting glasses optimized to your eyes will pay off in spades when you start seeing that front sight again.

Eye strain at distance is not part of the equation. We should be focusing on the front sight and not the target for a good group. For distance, just use a larger target. let's say you like a 4" diameter target at 50 yards and do well on that. That target is roughly 8 MOA in diameter so an 8 MOA target at 100 yards will equal roughly 8 inches. At 200 yards that would make for a 16" target which for deer hunters, is about the lung/heart area for a large deer. Either way, you will see virtually the same sight picture if you are focusing on the front sight with a proper prescription.

As for 30/30 accuracy in a Model 94, I'd be happy with a 3 MOA carbine with good ammo and really happy with a 2 MOA carbine. I just checked my loading notes and my 1956 production Model 94 Carbine with a Redfield aperture sight is a solid 2 MOA rifle with 170 grain boolits and more of a 3 MOA rifle with 150 grain boolits.

Someday I'm going to load 155 grain Palma or 168 grain Sierra Match Kings just short of the rifling (single loaded of course) and see just what the old girl will do MOA wise.

[TXGunNut]

Excellent post, Scharf. Have you had any luck or experiece with progressive lenses? Mine allow me to see the front sight but target is almost indistinguishable @ 100 yds with my current prescription. I'm due for new lenses soon. My eye doc is a shooter but he's more into handguns and short-range MSR-type shooting.
Sorry about the hi-jack, OP.

[blixen]

Took the Mod. 94 to the range again. Using 14 and 15 grain loads of SR4759 mostly because have a pound of it and am low on my other powders. The 15 gr. load gave me the best 100 yard groups--3.5" and 4.5" (Obviously "best" is a relative term.)

Here's where the problems might lie:
-- load: in the past, the rifle liked the same boolit with 8grains of Red Dot. I don't have a chrono, but The 4759 seems to have significantly more recoil, and, i'm guess, velocity. Not seeing any leading, however. I might drop back to the Red Dot load, I've still got a little left.

-- Loose gas checks. I'm using aluminum gas checks that don't seem to grip as tight as Hornady copper. Because I have to seat the boolit deeply to chamber, the boolit base is into the shoulder zone of the case. I'm wondering if the GCs are falling off or being pushed cock-eyed. Next, time I'll use up the few copper GCs I have and see if that makes any difference.

-- Damn my astigmatism! The tip of front sight looks like a fuzzy post covering about 3" of the target at 100 yards and it's hard to keep a consistent sight picture with the fuzz.

If I can get consistent 3" groups at 100 yards, I'll be more than satisfied.

[Scharfschuetze]

TXGunNut,

It's all about accuracy, so I guess we're not too far off topic, at least I hope so.

No, I haven't tried those. In the past I've used the Merrit disk that attaches to your eye glass lense for pistol shooting and it is fairly effective. Like all apertures, it functions like a primitive camera lens and helps to sharpen up your front sight. They used to be very popular in the old 2700 pistol shooting matches. Merrit also makes a great variable aperture for peep sights like the Lyman, Williams and Redfield.

I also have a set of lenses that attach to your eyeglass frame and swing up or down when in use or to adjust. They also work well, but again, these are a pistol shooting aid for me. One of my shooting buddies (a member here) uses these a lot and has great success with them. For the life of me, I can't remember their name, but I think that I got them from Champion's Choice or Gill Hebard several years ago.

Another option is to just get a longer barrel and I did that recently with the purchase of a Model 64 Winchester circa 1942 in 32 Special. I'm setting it up now with a Lyman 66A and a blade front sight. I have great expectations and that longer barrel and sight radius should help me see that darned front sight better. Pow! Now we're back on topic for Winchester accuracy.

[Scharfschuetze]

Blixon,

I've always had great luck with the 4759 powder as well as with 4198 in the 30/30 for cast bullets. For the 30/30, I've really only used the Lyman 311041 bullet with the Hornady crimp on gas checks and it has always stayed on from what I can tell. As you suspect though, a GC that is coming off can't do much for your groups.

I checked my loading notes for 30/30 for the lighter loads as you noted the use of Red Dot and I found that my carbine and my son's rifle both liked:

Lyman 311041 cast hard with a Hornady GC
Powder: 8.5 grains of Unique
Primer: Federal 210
Cases: Winchester with a heavy crimp
Overall length: 2.525"
Velocity: 1275fps

The above load is pretty mild and will shoot into 3 MOA all day long. Small rocks and cans out at 200 yards are in serious jeopardy with this combination, particularly with my son's 26" barreled rifle. It's long range performance on reactive targets bellies its 3 MOA grouping on paper.

As an aside, my notes show that I tried this load without a gas check (always a frugal sort am I) and its velocity was chronographed at 1300 fps and accuracy was about the same as with a GC, but there was some leading noted near the throat of the barrel. I don't this that its accuracy would stand up well for a full day of shooting. The gas checks are definitely worth the effort and cost, at least with this bullet design.

[TXGunNut]

Blixen-
I have astigmatism issues as well, not sure how it affects my focus issues but I'm sure it's part of the problem. I think you're on the right track with the gas checks, if you need a few more PM me an addy and I'll send you enough to give it a good trial.
Scharf-
I've kicked around the various aperture sizes as well. My Sharps has been unusable with my current prescription. It's aggravating that I never developed an interest in open/peep-sighted rifles until I also developed presbyopia and astigmatism. I had wonderful eyesight until I hit 40 but almost all my rifles wore scopes up until then. Youth wasted on the young, indeed!

-Mike

[TXGunNut]

I'm thinking it's time to resume my thutty-thutty project. This thread and the various Remlin threads are pushing me towards another 336, last one had an issue I simply couldn't figure out so I traded her off. I have components and moulds, all I need is a rifle.

[blixen]

tnx all. I have had a merit suction cup adjustable aperture. Its helpful with open sights but is more trouble than its worth with a receiver sight.
Btw, I have a 336 Marlin that throws this slug very well with plinking loads, but I have to seat the boolit it even deeper, which would exacerbate the gas check issue.
Now I have to find time to load up some more 30 wcf with copper GCs.

[robertbank]

Fellows I am back in the game. I traded off my Win 94 for a El Patron revolver on .357Mag and won on that deal. I couldn't make that 94 shoot 311041 boolits no matter what I did. The Open sights on the gun were useless with my eyes but that said the gun was all over the paper at 50 yards and it wasn't all me.

I found a used 336 and plan to put an inexpensive scope on it and see what she will do. I managed a 3 shot, 3" group at 100 yds with her one time so I know the gun is capable. Me I am not so sure so the scope likely will become a permanent fixture. I alos have a red dot sight I use on a Beretta Carbine that may find it's way on the gun. I don't hunt much so this is all about making noise and chasing tin cans.

Take Care

Bob

[TXGunNut]

I have a 2-7 Redfield set aside for my next 336. Somewhat compact so it looks right at home on a 336. It's the only way I'll be able to shoot a decent group past 50 yards until I get the glasses/aperture thing balanced out. Only saw one 336 tonight and couldn't make myself buy it. It was overpriced and I just can't warm up to a laminated stock. I did score some 3031 powder tho!

[Green Lizzard]

rem 788 1" t/c carbine 11/2" 94 an336 2" savage pump 4" all seem to do best with your load of 15.5 4659 @1625 fps

[Outpost75]

7314373144

These groups at 100 and 200 yards are with jacketed factory ammo, but they are representative of what you can expect.

[Scharfschuetze]

I feel for you guys loosing your visual clarity in your "Golden Years."

Having been visually challenged my life, I've learned that the optometrist is a good friend to have in your corner. Not only can he solve your presbyopia issues, but astigmatism can be quickly fixed too with a visit to his office. My astigmatism is bad enough that when I look through a scope sight without my glasses, the cross hairs actually bend into crescents. Not good, but with my glasses on, they are as straight as a plumb line.

An option not mentioned yet is the use of an aperture front sight to go along with your aperture rear sight. These are available from Lyman in different heights and the model is "Lyman 17A." I have these on several rifles and they come with numerous aperture sizes and styles as well as post blades. I shoot them with blade front inserts, but many target shooters use them with the aperture inserts with great success. Many claim that this style of sight can delay your need for a scope many years to decades. I wouldn't use one for hunting, but they will get you on target well for targets not running and dodging.

By the way Outpost, that's a nice looking Pre-64 that you have there and it looks like you can really make that thing shoot.

Here is a shot of some Marlin lever guns with that Lyman Model 17A on the front end of the tubes.

[Scharfschuetze]

Here is a shot from the Lyman web sight showing the various inserts and two different heights of the 17A.

Here's the link to the 17A page at Lyman.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/sights/series-17a.php

Sometimes you can come across the old Redfield version at gun shows and they are well worth picking up for later use.

[Scharfschuetze]

I posted this info in another thread, but it's seems to be apropos to this thread as the use of those peep sights can really be an accuracy enhancer.

"A few notes for you on the Lyman sights.

1. One click equals 1/4 MOA on average. Sight radius is the determining factor in your exact deflection per click
2. One turret rotation equals 3 MOA and thus 12 clicks per revolution
3. One mark on the elevation and windage scales equals 3 MOA or one rotation of the turrets
4. The range scale and deflection scale have a set screw.
5. Once you zero your rifle, loosen the screw and slip the scale so that it reads "0" at the witness line
6. You can also slip the turrets to read "0", but I don't bother with that as my zeros seem to change a little bit from day to day depending on light, temperature and how much coffee I drink
7. The longer your sight radius, the finer the adjustments will be and conversely, a short carbine barrel will exaggerate each adjustment. The average will be about 1/4 MOA.
8. Once zeroed and with the sight reading "0" you can then quickly adjust for wind and range and then return to your base zero. If you want the math behind this, let me know
9. You can also use the push button on the base of the 66A for fast range adjustments. Your MOA elevation scale is of value here. If your rifle drops 6 MOA from 100 to 300 yards, push the button and lift the sight bar 2 range lines or 6 MOA.

Older Lyman sights from before our time have 4 MOA turrets."

[TXGunNut]

Agreed on the 17A, one has found a home atop my 32WS M94. I enjoy shooting it @ 50 yds but haven't been able to find the targets very well @ 100.

[robertbank]

The man with the cycle waits for no man. Your time will come. It ain't the golden years its the rust years. Tis a time to reflect on al the girls you left behind.....

Take Care

Bob

[Scharfschuetze]

Ha, ha!

Not me! I did't retire last year to do battle with that clown. I've got lots of lead to launch and powder to burn yet.

[truckjohn]

Just to put a bug in your ear....
There are tons of "Vintage" 336's out there that have already been D&T'ed for scopes.... Old waffle tops with scope mount holes are only worth maybe 50% of their value without.... so you can pick them up on the cheap....

Frequently, they were carried a lot, but shot very little (Typical hunting)... Likely a gun like this has less than 200 rounds through it total....

I recently did this myself - picked up a 1948 336 (First year of production and all) with a pristine barrel, fabulous trigger, and a nice slick action... but it had been D&T'ed for scope mounts and the buttstock had been replaced with one from a later model.... $300.00..... If it had been all original - no way I could have touched it under $550... more likely 600....

That old girl just plain shoots..... So far - I haven't shot anything besides factory ammo... and I haven't run the iron sights - scope only so far.... but I haven't had any range outings where it shot MORE than MOA....

Of course.. For all the bad, evil talk about Remlin... Remington knows how to make a barrel and they know how to cut a chamber... Their rifles tend to be very accurate.... I see folks whining about this and that ... then post a 5-shot 1/2" group from their 336.... They must be doing something right....

Thanks

[double8]

Sirs,
A thutty-thutty and her sister the thutty too special are not target rifles..3-5" groups at 100 yds aren't bad, darn good, I would say.
They were meant for the woods.
Just my 2 cents, not looking to argue the point.

[Outpost75]

By the way Outpost, that's a nice looking Pre-64 that you have there and it looks like you can really make that thing shoot.



Here in West Virginia lots of rural lawmen still carry 94 Winchesters. Mine rode many miles and is now retired, like me.

Other "car gun" is a Winchester Model 12 riot73326

[AlfredD]

I don't think that size grouping is bad for that gun and range.