Black Powder cleaning problem

[guninhand]

I finally got to shoot my Rollong Block in 12.7X44R, popped off 10 rounds with 777 followed by 10 with FFg. I wanted to campare groups and didn't clean between the two types.

So when I got home I poured water down the bore followed by boiling water. Then I wet the bore with soapy water, used a bronze brush to lather it up, pushed patchs out and as the bore dried, patched were comming out black as ever. So I tried Hoppes 9 Plus black pwder solvent and lubricant. Still dirty patches. Then I tried Wipe-Out Painless for Black Powder. Still dirty patches.

So I went on to WD-40 and JB Bore Cleaner. Still dirty patches.

So I went back to the beginning with soapy water in the bore, to WD40, to dry patches, Still dirty, and dirty right from the start of the rifling, too.

Any suggestions? I have Outers Foul-Out but haven't used it on the gun yet. To do so would gobble up quite a bit of electrolyte.

[montana_charlie]

I have Outers Foul-Out but haven't used it on the gun yet. To do so would gobble up quite a bit of electrolyte.
The Foul Out is for removing metal. What kind of metal do you suspect is in there...copper or lead?

Was this the first time you fired the rifle?
CM

[standles]

Not shure what to say. 20 rounds through the bore should not have created that hard a residue.

Now I am not saying I ever clean mine to the point the bore will pass a white glove (patch) test but I get them clean. Used to use "butch's bore shine" After 1-15 shots of 70gr FFFG it would clean in 4 or 5 wipes.

I have since switched to using balistol for my cleaning needs and it works great.

Steven

[SharpsShooter]

Almost sounds like Black Powder and Alox bullet lube mixture to create that big of a mess???

SS

[Steelshooter]

Guninhand
Was black fouling coming out of the barrel or a greyish color of leading, either way I use speed juice and ed's red works every time.
good luck
Chuck

[kodiak1]

I agree with SharpsShooter I think someone had a petroleum based lube with Black Powder.
Ken.

[waksupi]

Got any Goop hand cleaner? It generally works pretty well for such things.

[guninhand]

I was using Hornady muzzleloading bullets and they had a white chalky lubricant. It was the first time I shot the gun and when I first got it it had some kind of sticky grease in the bore. It had probably been stored for 120 years or more like that. when I cleaned it before shooting the patches still had a faint brownish tinge, but the bore was shiny.

Now the bore is shiny again but the patches have distinct black rings where the jag has good pressure agains the bore. Outer's foul out can remove carbon fouling as well as metal.

[montana_charlie]

Now the bore is shiny again but the patches have distinct black rings where the jag has good pressure agains the bore.
The bore shines because whatever is in there has been polished enough to reflect light. But the patches show that it isn't clean down to the steel.

Outer's foul out can remove carbon fouling as well as metal.
If you still have the Foul Out instructions, I think you'll find that is not true.

After a layer of (say) copper is removed, they say to clean the bore with solvent (to remove any carbon deposits that interfere with the electrolysis) before setting up to pull out the next layer of copper (same in the case of lead).

I think you have a mixture of carbon from the black powder mixed with the cosmoline (a petroleum product) that you never totally removed. I'd bet only a long soaking with a good solvent can break it down.

I would grab some plugs from the Foul Out kit, fill the bore with diesel fuel, and let it sit overnight.
Keep soaking, then scrubbing, until the steel is clean. For the scrubbing, I would use a patch wrapped on a nylon brush.
When the crud is gone, clean out the diesel with regular gun solvent, patch it dry and oil the bore.

Stay away from the JB paste. You have enough different kinds of crap in there already.
CM

ADDED...
I see in an earlier reply a mention of Goop hand cleaner. That reminds me...
That citrus hand cleaner is pretty amazing stuff. I have been trying it on all sorts of gungy stuff out in the shop.

If you can smear it on pretty thick inside the bore, then massage it with something that doesn't fit too tightly in there, it might break the stuff down faster than just soaking would.
CM

[Bear Claw]

just my .02 but did you try a new brush???? I can wear out a brush pretty fast and I find that for me the brush needs to fit pretty tight,,,,, also I clean my brush with rubbing alcohol every few passes.

Dont give up:drinks:

[schutzen]

On a very dirty barrel, I remove the nipple and screw in a plug. Set the rifle upright in a vise (held just snugly enough to keep it from tipping over) and fill the barrel with cheap penetrating oil. Let it set overnight and then clean it normally. It has worked every time for me. It even works on barrels that have been left dirty for months. I have purchased several BP rifles that the previous owner shot and then failed to clean. They are dirt cheap and most times can be resurrected using this method.

[The Double D]

What are your patches made of and now tight are they. Cotton patches will turn blackish from friction if to tight. You will find the color where the patch is pinched between jag and bore. Some times they will even show the pattern of the jag.

[guninhand]

Thanks for all the input. I have had black fouling deposit on the ss rod when using Outers foul Out in old military bores (Jungle carbine)

I'll try the overnight soaking routine. My bronze brush is new and fits the bore well. I think the black on the patches is fouling because it it soot black, not some dark shade of grey. I don't have a 50 cal nylon brush but will try it with a 45 cal and an extra patch.

I'd want to test the Citrus or Goop on a steel sample before leaving it in the barrel any length of time. This gun's in pretty good shape and it would really bum me out to damage it.

[fourarmed]

Something that is worth a try is to place a pan of either boiling hot soapy water or kerosene on the ground, put one end of the barrel in it (you have to remove the breech plug from the barrel) and run a tight fitting patch down to the liquid. Then pull up the rod, and you will "pump" the liquid up into the bore. Produces a more aggressive scrubbing action.

Another thing to remember is that finely divided steel is black. You could be getting that instead of carbon.

[jim4065]

My 2 cents. I pour very hot water into the barrel until it comes out clean, then scrub a little with a bronze brush and repeat the hot water. That's it - followed by a dry patch or two then an oiled patch. I'll check my guns after a week - if there's no rust it's a done deal. All of this is with Goex BP, almost no experience with substitutes.

Bought a can of "Wipe-Out Painless Black Powder Brushless Bore Cleaner from Midway and have used it on my 2 BPCR's. It's a foaming bore cleaner that seems to work pretty well, but doesn't "flush" the bore well - in other words you'll use a lot of patches and need several treatments if you don't wash down the bore first.

Also, I've been using the BP lube from White Label Lube Co. You might get totally different results with SPG, etc.

Many years ago I used a mixture of Murphys Oil Soap and something else - but I can't remember the exact mixture. It was pretty popular in the Club at that time.

[montana_charlie]

Once guninhand finds the method that works best for him, I hope someone will post information about how to remove the nipple and breechplug from a rolling block action...
CM

[JudgeBAC]

The murphys oil soap recipe is 1/3 murphys, 1/3 hydrogen peroxide, and 1/3 90% Isopropyl (sp?) alcohol. It works pretty well, but after using Balistol, I believe the balistol is the best medicine either alone or mixed with water. It is water soluble. Mixing it 50/50 with water, makes a great cleaner for corrosive surplus ammo.

[SharpsShooter]

Once guninhand finds the method that works best for him, I hope someone will post information about how to remove the nipple and breechplug from a rolling block action...
CM


You noticed that too huh?:-D


SS

[testhop]

You noticed that too huh?:-D


SS

O.K.NOW I WILLGIVE YOU MY WAY .
IUSE A PRODCT CALLED SIMPLE GREEN GREAT CLEANER IGET AT LOWES OR SOME HARDWARE STORE
I BUILT A HOOKUP THAT USES A STOP VALVE (A STOP VALVE IS THE CUT OFFTHE
WATER TO THE TOLET)GET ONE THAT USES PIPE THREDS HALF INCH SIZE
NEXT GET AN ADAPTER NIPPLE MALE ON BOTH ENDS ONE TO FIT THE STOP VAVLE
ONEEND TO FIT A WASHING MICHINE HOSE THEN YOU USE A SMALL TUBING THAT WILL EASLEY GO DOWN THE BARREL LEAVING ROOM FOR WATER TO RUN BACK OUT HOW LONG YOU MAKE THE TUBING IS YOUR CHOICE


NOW THE CLEANING HOOKUP THEHOSE TO HOT WATER AND WASH OUT THE
BARREL DIP YOUR BORE BRUSHIN SIMPLE GREENAND SCRUB 10-15 TIMES
FLUSH REPEATE TILL WATER COMES OUT CLEAN I DONT THINK IT WILL MORE
THAN 3 TIMES THEN GO TO PATCHES IF AFTER 3 PATCHS THAY COME DUIRTY GO BACK TO THE FLUSH AND SCRUBING

I CLEAN A RIFLE IN 1`0 MIN USEING THISWAY



TOM(TESTHOP)

[testhop]

I finally got to shoot my Rollong Block in 12.7X44R, popped off 10 rounds with 777 followed by 10 with FFg. I wanted to campare groups and didn't clean between the two types.

So when I got home I poured water down the bore followed by boiling water. Then I wet the bore with soapy water, used a bronze brush to lather it up, pushed patchs out and as the bore dried, patched were comming out black as ever. So I tried Hoppes 9 Plus black pwder solvent and lubricant. Still dirty patches. Then I tried Wipe-Out Painless for Black Powder. Still dirty patches.

So I went on to WD-40 and JB Bore Cleaner. Still dirty patches.

So I went back to the beginning with soapy water in the bore, to WD40, to dry patches, Still dirty, and dirty right from the start of the rifling, too.

Any suggestions? I have Outers Foul-Out but haven't used it on the gun yet. To do so would gobble up quite a bit of electrolyte.

P.S.
THE TUBING IS COPPER AND THE PRESSURE FITINGSETUP
NEVER REPEATNEVER TELLYOUR WIFE HOW GOOD SIMPLE GREEN CLEANS
I DID NOW EVER SO OFTON SHE WILL ME TOM YOU ARE OUT OF GUN CLEANER
AND OLE CAUTION DONT USE SIMPLE GREEN ON THE MOTER OF YOUR TRUCK
IT IS A GREASE AND OIL RREMOVER
IN MY B.P. CLUB WE NEVER USE PROLIUM PRODUCTS ON OR IN B.P.GUNS AND WD 40 IS REAL BAD AS IT IS A B^&*$#*HTO GET RID OF

TOM (TESTHOP)

[testhop]

I finally got to shoot my Rollong Block in 12.7X44R, popped off 10 rounds with 777 followed by 10 with FFg. I wanted to campare groups and didn't clean between the two types.

So when I got home I poured water down the bore followed by boiling water. Then I wet the bore with soapy water, used a bronze brush to lather it up, pushed patchs out and as the bore dried, patched were comming out black as ever. So I tried Hoppes 9 Plus black pwder solvent and lubricant. Still dirty patches. Then I tried Wipe-Out Painless for Black Powder. Still dirty patches.

So I went on to WD-40 and JB Bore Cleaner. Still dirty patches.

So I went back to the beginning with soapy water in the bore, to WD40, to dry patches, Still dirty, and dirty right from the start of the rifling, too.

Any suggestions? I have Outers Foul-Out but haven't used it on the gun yet. To do so would gobble up quite a bit of electrolyte.

P.S.
THE TUBING IS COPPER AND THE PRESSURE FITINGSETUP
NEVER REPEATNEVER TELLYOUR WIFE HOW GOOD SIMPLE GREEN CLEANS
I DID NOW EVER SO OFTON SHE WILL ME TOM YOU ARE OUT OF GUN CLEANER
AND OLE CAUTION DONT USE SIMPLE GREEN ON THE MOTER OF YOUR TRUCK
IT IS A GREASE AND OIL RREMOVER
IN MY B.P. CLUB WE NEVER USE PROLIUM PRODUCTS ON OR IN B.P.GUNS AND WD 40 IS REAL BAD AS IT IS A B^&*$#*HTO GET RID OF

TOM (TESTHOP)

[SharpsShooter]

Testhop.

Couple of things here. 1. The firearm in question is a breechloading rolling block. not a muzzle-loader. Your method and inovative cleaner is certainly in the creative tinkering spirit of this board and is to be applauded. The point MontanaCharlie and I were making was in relation to a couple of posts that were obviously intended to be methods of cleaning the front stuffer, not a breech loader. 2. Just in case you are not aware, the use of all capitol letters in a post implies you are shouting. We hear ya just fine.


SS

[waksupi]

Do not put hydrogen peroxide in a ML barrel!

[charlie3tuna]

Do not put hydrogen peroxide in a ML barrel!

Why?

charlie

[SharpsShooter]

Do not put hydrogen peroxide in a ML barrel!

Friendship Speed Juice is 33% H-Peroxide. You are saying this is bad (the peroxiode content)? Elaborate sir!


SS

[waksupi]

Hydrogen peroxide is an aggressive oxidizer. And, it is a penetrator, that goes into the threads of your breech plug, the nipple seat, and drum. Once it is in there, it starts rust, that is nearly impossible to stop. I don't much care for rusty breechplug threads, as when they decide to leave the rifle, they always seem to be pointed at a part of me that I would prefer to keep.
I know this formula has been around Friendship for a lot of years. That doesn't mean it is good. Sure, it may clean. if you don'
t mind the deterioration of the metal.
There are a lot of things we have figured out that just isn't a good idea.

[schutzen]

montana_charlie;

Sorry about removing the nipple comment, I missed the rolling block reference. All the BP I shoot is through a muzzle loader. A rubber stopper works well in a bolt gun and I assume it will also work in a rolling block. However I would stand it in a bucket in case the plug fails during the night.

Schutzen

[montana_charlie]

Sorry about removing the nipple comment, I missed the rolling block reference.
WHAT! You mean there isn't supposed to be one?
I spent days crawling all over my buddy's rolling block...looking for the nipple.

Thinking his was defective, I drilled and tapped it for an old T/C Hawken nipple I had laying around. It looks kinda cool up there on top of the barrel, and sends out a neat little 'smoke signal' when he shoots it.

But, I think I'm going to hold off on installing this breech plug I have cobbled out for him...
CM

[The Double D]

Electronic Bore Cleaner - http://ca.geocities.com/snidey@rogers.com/borecleaner.html

[blysmelter]

Some crazy sweedes has actually converted their RBs to muzzelloaders, just because it was fun doing it:-)

Having shot the 12x44RBs for nearly 20 years-you need lube, lots of it. It gives you better precission and easier cleaning. My pet-load at the time is reformed 348Win brass, largerifle magnum primer, 42grains Wano FFg, a 12mm waxed cardboard disc, a beeswax disc, some stuff called Spenol ( its a skin-cream made up off paraffinium liquidium, steraic acid and som small portions of other stuff) and a 450grains Lee bullet lubed with a mix og beeswax, olive oil and coco-fat.

Shots well, keeps the residue soft and cleans easily. Only backdraw is the loaded rounds must be storered bullet-down or else the fairly liquid Spenol will destroy the powder.

[scb]

I have had much better accuracy and much much easier cleaning when loading black powder cartridges using the following procedures. First I open up the flash holes in the case to .100. This however makes them UNSAFE to use with smokeless powder. I then prime the cases with Federal MAGNUM primers. The cases are then charged with powder. Next I place a cardboard wad over the powder charge, it is then compressed in a special die. I make the wads from the cardboard that comes on 6 and 12 packs, some use milk cartons. I then insert a lube wafer, this is made with a ribbon extruder, and the ribbon is pushed over the case mouth. Another wad is placed on top of the lube. Then the bullet is seated. Finally the bullet is given a heavy crimp in a separate operation. It is my experience that this makes the powder burn much better than powder dumped loosely into the case. The better the powder burns less fouling. The lube wafer helps keep the fouling soft. For the actual cleaning I use the method described by Fourarmed with Testhop's Simple Green. I set a pan of boiling water on the ground, being sure to insulate it from the ground (so it won't cool of as quickly). After the bore is "seasoned" I have found it unnecessary to use a brush, just a patch pumping the boiling water simple green mixture up and down the bore cleans the bore completely. When done correctly, the barrel will be too hot to touch and will dry within seconds. While still hot I then run a patch saturated with T/C bore butter thru to protect the bore. I do not use bullet lube or bore treatment that contain petroleum with black powder. The lube I use is SPG. Some disagree but it works for me. Carbon (black powder residue) + petroleum = tar. My $.02. Steve.
BTW I claim none of this as my own work. It comes from the experience of Many others.

[wills]

You mean you dont drop tube?

[scb]

Naw. I just punch paper or bang steel with BP so I don't try to cram every last molecule of powder into the case. Using a compression die, a drop tube seems redundant.

[testhop]

[QUOTE=guninhand;224428]I finally got to shoot my Rollong Block in 12.7X44R, popped off 10 rounds with 777 followed by 10 with FFg. I wanted to campare groups and didn't clean between the two types.

So when I got home I poured water down the bore followed by boiling water. Then I wet the bore with soapy water, used a bronze brush to lather it up, pushed patchs out and as the bore dried, patched were comming out black as ever. So I tried Hoppes 9 Plus black pwder solvent and lubricant. Still dirty patches. Then I tried Wipe-Out Painless for Black Powder. Still dirty patches.

So I went on to WD-40 and JB Bore Cleaner. Still dirty patches.

So I went back to the beginning with soapy water in the bore, to WD40, to dry patches, Still dirty, and dirty right from the start of the rifling, too.

Any suggestions? I have Outers Foul-Out but haven't used it on the gun yet. To do so would gobble up quite a bit of electrolyte.[/QU
get some SIMPLE GREEN CLEANER it is made to remove grese and oil
you can buy it in lowes, home depoe and some times at the super market works great just a slopy wet patch through the barrela few times let set a couple minetsthen run your brush in a scrubing action

[hydraulic]

I stick the barrel of my Pedersoli Sharps in the toilet , run a cleaning rod with a patch and jag down the barrel, pump water up into the barrel, dry it with several patches and oil it. I try to remember to flush the toilet first.

[wills]

Providing i use the blow tube, couple of shots clear windex, third patch comes out clean.

[13Echo]

Geez fellas. I agree with Wills. Cleaning a breach loading black powder rifle with a good bore should be easy. With black powder all I have to do with my .45-90 Sharps is run two to four patches wet with water or clear Windex (not Windex with ammonia) followed by dry patches and then a good gun oil. The 1884 and 1868 Trapdoors need a few more patches because the bores are a bit rough. No boiling water, no pumping water through the bore, no bucket of water. Just water and patches give a perfectly clean bore. It's actually easier to clean than my smokeless rifle with jacketed bullets. If I let the fouling get hard by not properly blow tubing then it just gets a spritz of water to soften the fouling followed by the damp patches. Try it. You'll like it.

Jerry Liles

[omgb]

Before I leave from the range and perhaps several times during a long day of shooting, I'll run a couple of patches wetted with a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water down the bore. I then dry it if I'm going to shoot more or I leave it damp if I'm coming home. The antifreze has a rust inhibiter in it that mixes well with water. The BP slides out without a problem and the bore stays damp but safe until I get home and clean it.

I have got to believe that all of that black crud you're getting is a mix of fouling, burnt lube, and lead. The use of a petroleum based lube, including those with candle wax, will produce a fouling that is the devil to get out. Also, any remaining lead will keep blackening patches as well. Try soaking the barrel with sopping wet patches coated in Kroil. Any lead will be lifted out with just a few applications. Follow that with some tight patches cut from a lead removal cloth and you should be lead free.

[montana_charlie]

guninhand hasn't replied to this thread for almost a month.
Does anybody else get the idea he is no longer listening...?
CM

[windwalker]

Once guninhand finds the method that works best for him, I hope someone will post information about how to remove the nipple and breechplug from a rolling block action...
CM
[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:you beat me to it lol
bernie:-D

[wonderwolf]

I've used 777 a lot, 50 rounds of 45-70 through my buffalo hunter and I simply remove the barrel, Muzzle down in a 5gal bucket filled for the first few inches with hot water. Clean with a jag and patches....3 swipes and the barrel is new. :coffee:

[DonH]

Ditto what Wills and 13Echo said. Granted, this will be easier in a smooth barrel than a pitted one but it just shouldn't be that hard. Given a decent barrel and good non-petroleum lube my BPCRs clean up by far easier than a modern highpower rifle. Clean water, Windex, windshield washer fluid or if those fail, Ed's Red - any of 'em will do the trick.

[martinibelgian]

FRom experience, pitted barrels can be a b*tch to clean up - you think you got them clean, and just a few days after you can pull some of that dreaded red stuff from your barrel... Bets way to clean a pitted barrel is with a patch over a nylon brush, after brushing with the nylon brush only to get rid of all the crud. The only way to make sure you get all crud and moisure out.

[crossfireoops]

This is a never sweat.....

if you want to get a questionable BP bore dead clean, and have a baseline to start from.......load some VERY hot bp loads with old junk BP,......compressed with wads....10, a dozen, or more.

no bullets required,....."smoodge" in a dollop of T.C. Bore Butter, followed with farina, cream of wheat, wheatena.......cereal.

Go out back and fire these as quickly as you can cycle the thing.......

Start immediately when done firing with Windex vinegar patches, Murphie's , Red wine, White wine.....water.......it don't matter......................do NOT flush the barrel with a garden hose adaptor ( heat shock)

THICK Well fitted wads are kinda' important.....other than that, .....a loosey goosey have a beer, raise a little hell excercise.

I do gaurantee, .....you"ll be surprized at how much lead you'll get out, on the first dry patches.....xcheck out the wet ones....they'll be embedded with stringers, too.

Best Regards,

GTC

I call it "Ballistic scrubbing"