Swaging on the Cheap - 9mm Case to 40SW/10mm JWords [Archive]

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Cane_man

05-25-2013, 12:12 PM

Swaging on the Cheap - 9mm Case to 40SW/10mm JWords

Some of you guys have been pm’ing me on how I made a swaging system for swaging 9mm to 40SW/10mm bullets at around $100 “on the cheap” using a standard reloading press and Lee die bodies, so I thought I would put my thoughts together to explain the steps that worked for me… all of this info was stolen from the archives or explained by other generous members here on CB (thanks especially to Lafaun, Danr, and Stealthshooter), this swaging solution is nothing new but I have not seen one thread that explains it in detail, so maybe this will be it… here is the thread that got me started on this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?132795-My-home-made-45-cal-swaging-dies

Just to clarify, I am a complete nube, my shop skills are mediocre at best, there are some things I am probably doing wrong so I hope the veterans will step in and add clarification and short cuts- constructive criticism is welcomed… I don’t have this particular 9mm to 40SW system completely finalized (working on solutions for heat treating the inserts, case trimming, and making a point forming die), but all I know is that the bullets that I am making right now are shooting fine for punching holes in paper, and that is as far as I have taken it… one more thing, if you try this you assume all risk and your results may not be the same as mine so dont blame me if something goes wrong!

The goal of this project is to be able to make jword pistol ammo at home on the cheap using a standard reloading press, cost effective parts/materials, and a small bench top lathe (mine is a Chinese 7x12 that i bought 12 years ago when i was a semi-pro bamboo flyrod maker, thus the id "Cane Man")… homemade jwords became a need for me due to ammo shortages lately, and the fact that I am Swiss and we are a “thrifty” people (cheap azzes) and I cant pay for a professional swaging solution…

To do this project you have to have the following already or acquire it:
-a small bench top lathe and know how to do basic lathe operations (facing, drilling, lapping, etc.)
-the basic tooling, tool cutting bits, drill bits, mic, etc.
-a single stroke reloading press, I am using an RCBS Rockchucker
-357/38spcl/9mm casting molds anywhere from 90gr to 160gr
-softish lead to use (no more than 10-12 BH)
-9mm brass; range pickup or check the swappin/sellin section
-some Lee die bodies, which I will explain as I go along

Don't question your abilities, if you figured out how to cast boolits then you will persevere in swaging and be successful at this as well- you CAN do it! i believe if you complete this project you can use it as a springboard to make any pistol ammo, and hopefully rifle ammo as well (my next project is swaging 22LR to .224 55gr FBHP using a similar system, if i figure out how to make the point forming reamer!)...

Just to keep expectations real, with this system you won’t be able to make BT perfect and beautiful jwords (but not too far off), but the bullets you make here are functional and cost effective… I know this system can be improved greatly so I post not only for others by myself as well…

Here are the steps I will explain in this post:

[1] clean up some 9mm range pickup brass, I like to use my ultrasonic cleaner with hot water, a tsp of Lemishine (find at Walmart, etc.), and a drop of Dawn dish washing soap… I have an el cheap HF ultrasonic cleaner and I run it through three 8 minute cycles and they come out clean enough for me… you can also toss them into your vibratory cleaner with some walnut media, whatever works for you… don't bother with depriming the cases, in fact it is better to leave the primer in as it keep lead from flowing out of the flash hole when swaging...

[2] trim brass - if you are making 10mm jwords you wont have to trim the cases (final bullet OD is 0.720" which is about max), but if you are making 40SW you have to trim the cases by about 60 mils (0.060") if you want the bullet to have an OAL of around 0.660... there is a good thread right now where someone is using the HF mini cutoff saw and a home made jig, and that is what i will probably do when i make 40s... not sure about this, but you may have to debur....

[3] anneal brass – there a few different ways to do this, you can put a propane torch on each case and heat them to orange and let them air cool… I did this at first but it takes time one case at a time, so using a suggestion from the threads (I think it was Lafaun- thanks!) you can put a few hundred in your Lee 4-20 pot, wrap them in aluminum foil, and let them heat soak at 750F for 1 hour… I emptied my pot of lead then let it cool, and the foil keeps any random lead left in the pot from contacting the cases and it keeps the heat in… I have a PID so I just set and forget it for and hour, let them air cool and they are good to go… there is a good thread that is a sticky that gives different options here...

The above steps are pretty easy to do, so I won’t provide pics for them, but the next steps are better explained with pics and I will post them one step at a time in future posts as time permits and instructions on how to make the dies/inserts:

[4] Size the Lead Cores
[5] Seat Lead Cores
[6] Swage Cores
[7] Point Forming
[8] Final J-Word Sizing

As usual if you have any questions or ideas for improvements post in this thread or pm me…

here is a picture of the swaging system I put together for 9mm to 40SW/10mm (not completely finished):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/10mm200gr_zps8c4cf713.jpg

and here are the results, these are 10mm 200gr FBHP, like i said they aint BT professional but they are functional and cheap!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/jwords_zpsffba46d6.jpg

more posts to follow as time permits to explain the remaining steps [4] through [8]...

************************************************** ***********************

UPDATES

5-31-13 auto eject added, see this post:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2240787&viewfull=1#post2240787

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2244298&viewfull=1#post2244298

6-15-13 added core cutter, see this post:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2263498&viewfull=1#post2263498

7-17-13 explained heat treating and now using O-1 tool steel for die inserts:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200792-Swaging-on-the-Cheap-9mm-Case-to-40SW-10mm-JWords&p=2308039&viewfull=1#post2308039

customcutter

05-25-2013, 04:51 PM

Cane,

Thanks for posting this for others. I'll be like the rest and trying to figure out how you use the dies and inserts to make the finished products.

J-Word??? jackets???

I must be a cheap azzz too, didn't know I had any swiss in me though. I just like being able to rely on myself, if and when I have too. I've ran a landscaping business the past 6 years, and at 58 it's ruining my back. (I already have 3 herniated disc). I've decided to hire someone to take my place on the crew, and I'm trying to learn some machining skills to put a 14X40 lathe, 9X42 mill, 6X28 mill, surface grinder, multiple other tools too work. I used to make custom knives, but if you can make $5/hr doing that you're pretty good. (hence the name CC) I may try making them again buy right now making reamers and dies is teaching me a lot of machining skills. The larger mill was in the middle of a CNC conversion when I bought it. I'm trying to finish that and learn how to do CAD/CAM also. Maybe I can mfg parts I'm hoping. But like I said I also need to learn machining skills.

thanks,
CC

CC

Cane_man

05-25-2013, 05:58 PM

no worries CC, i will explain everything you need to know to make this happen... i gotta take care of some stuff but plan to get back later and try to post on core sizing and seating...

if you learn to make the reamers for the point forming die like the KTN type in the stickies, there would be a market for those for sure on CB... i think custom reamers cost over $100 and on up... so if you were price competitive this would be something to think about for a little side biz... and who knows, if you get good enough you could be the next BT Sniper offering professional swaging systems... after all he got started just like you and i are right now by reading the archives and asking questions :idea:

Cane_man

05-25-2013, 09:13 PM

[4] Size the Lead Cores

In this post I will explain sizing the lead cores and the dies and inserts needed for this step, I will spend time explaining this in detail because once you understand how to make this die and insert you will easily understand the rest…

here is a picture of the process where the lead core of the bullet is sized so that it will fit inside the annealed 9mm case:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-size-1_zps51e76ba1.jpg

so what you are seeing is a cast lead boolit (from a Lyman 357466 mold) with the ogive trimmed off sitting on top of a bottom punch, ready to be pushed through the core sizing insert so the cores are sized small enough to drop in the 9mm case… they go through the die and collect in a 24 ounce soda bottle on top that has the bottom sliced off, so they pour out easily when you are done…

here are the definitions I am using for this project:

die body – this is the die body for a Lee Powder Through Expanding Die in 9mm

bottom punch – a rod that fits like a shell holder in the press ram, which pushes cores/cases from the bottom up through the die

top “stop” punch – a 5/8”-18 number 5 bolt that has been turned to thread in to the top of the Lee die body and secure die inserts, this punch will be explained in core swaging

top “pass thru” punch – same as above but it has a large hole drilled all the way through it that allows sized cores or sized bullets to pass all the way through the top of the die

top ejection punch – a 5/16” number 8 bolt that has been turned down to fit through a top stop punch and a die insert, this will be explained in core swaging

die insert – this is a 9/16” diameter by 1-1/8” long piece of 12L14 rod that has been drilled through and lapped to a specific inside diameter

lead cores – for this project they are 357/38spc/9mm cast boolits with parts trimmed off using tin snips to achieve a core specific weight

here are the parts you need to make and collect for this core sizing step:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-size-2_zps402b1687.jpg

from left to right:

bottom punch, Lee Powder Through Expander Die body, 0.355 core sizing die insert, top “stop” punch, and a locking nut for the top punch.. the insert fits inside the Lee die body (drops right in), and the top punch threads on top of the die and secures the insert, the locking nut secures the top pass thru punch, the bottom punch fits in your ram like a shell holder…

the lead boolit cores - I need to explain this… what normal swagers do is use either lead wire or cast cores and then size them in a “squirt” die so they produce a consistent finished bullet weight… I am bypassing the squirt die and just using lead cast boolits for my cores… for these 10mm jwords I am using a Lyman 357466 mold that throws 160gr .360 diameter boolits… you can use whatever 357/38sp/9mm die you want to get the size core you need… for these jwords I need a core that weighs 140gr and this with the 60gr 9mm case gives me a 200gr bullet… I can get 140gr from a 160gr boolit by trimming off the ogive with a pair of tin snips (you can see this in the first pic)… if you play around with your boolit, depending upon where you trim it (ojive, base, front band, ect.) it will give you different core weights, you will have to play with this to get the weight you need… is this as consistent as using a squirt die? No way… but it will get you within 5 grains, so my final jwords weigh between 195gr and 200gr, and for me I just use powder charges based on the heaviest weight and go from there, it works for me and punches holes in paper just fine… whatever size jword you are making subtract 60gr to account for the 9mm case and that will tell you what size core you need (180gr 40SW needs a 120gr boolit, of which a 9mm lube groove Lee mold works perfectly)…

here is how to make the parts:

Die Body – this is just the die body for a Lee Powder Through Expander Die in 9mm and is the 1st key to this entire swaging system, it looks like this on Leeprecision.com:

http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-2279.jpg

here is the link:

http://leeprecision.com/exp-di-body-9mm.html

Lee will sell this die for about $17 shipped, not too bad… what is key here is that you don’t have to turn 7/8-14 threads on a rod, Lee does this for you already, and the top ½” is threaded on the inside for a 5/8-18 standard bolt… the ID of this die is approximately 0.356”, which is just slightly larger than a 9/16” 12L14 rod, so you don’t have to turn the rod it just drops right inside the die without turning it to size! Remember you are purchasing the die body only, not the entire die, which Lee is happy to sell you the die body only… when you get the die you have to open up the ID of the mouth some… right now it is sized about 0.380 for the 9mm case, you need to take a boring tool to it and open up that ID so that it is about 0.450”… chuck the die in your lathe and go easy on removing the first 0.005 as this is case hardened… I found that taking a rat tail file to it while turn in the lathe took this carbide layer out pretty easily, making easy work of taking out the rest of material with the boring bar… go easy, because removing 0.001 is really removing 0.002 inches because you are removing the entire diameter at the same time… it is easy to remove too much material here so be careful… do you have to use a 9mm die body? Probably not, but the large calibers will seat the die inserts much higher inside the die body and they may not work… a 0.380 auto die body might work as well, but I am not sure about that… there may be other options here, post them if you figure this out!

Die Insert – now you need to make a die insert that will drop right inside the die body, and it will be used to do the work of sizing the lead cores, this is the 2nd key to this project... these die inserts are easy and relatively fast to make, and if you screw them up no biggie, toss it aside and make another... its not like you just spent 8 hours carefully turning threads and drilling to make a master piece swaging die only to screw it up at the end when final lapping and make you want to play in the freeway or go postal… to get started all you do is cutoff a 1-1/8” section of your 12L14 9/16” diameter rod, and chuck it up in your lathe… you can find 12L14 on evilbay and for $10 you can get a 1’ section which will be plenty for this project… 12L14 is the savior for this project, it has lead in the alloy and is free machining, and it turns and drills like it was butter… my lathe loves this stuff and has enough power to turn/drill it… without this material I would not have been able to turn harder/tougher alloys and I would have had to abandon this project… thanks to Buckshot for sharing this tip in the archives… the only drawback to 12L14 is that it wont heat treat worth beans, but it will case harden, which i will discuss later… it is a fairly strong alloy, and may be fine without any heat treating, but the jury is still out on this as far as I am concerned…

OK, you have your 1-1/8” section of rod chucked in the lathe, now face both ends… then you will drill a 0.355” hole completely through it (a 9mm drill bit works perfect for this)… take one end and flare it open so it will receive a core easily… you want to drill this 0.355 hole in steps… center drill, then 1/8”, then 1/4”, then 5/16”, then the 9mm bit… when you are done, you need to polish the bore out as smooth as possible… here I do it in increments using sandpaper and some oil: 80 grit, 400grit, 1000 grit, then 0000 steel wool… Buckshot has a great tutorial in the archives on how to lap dies, maybe someone can post it here… once you are done lapping this die insert is finished… one more thing, you will end up with several of these die inserts when you are finished, it is almost mandatory to mark them in some way... in the pic i used a sharpie, but this soon wears off, so i got a cheapo metal engraver on evilbay for $12 and i just scribe the size and type of insert right on the outside of it... (whatever you do, don't use letter or number punches to mark the dies... dont ask me how i know!)

Top “Pass Thru” Punch – once you drop in the die insert, it needs to be secured…fortunately the Lee die body has the top ½” section that is inside threaded with 5/8-18 threads (that’s 5/8 fine)… I use 2” long 5/8” fine bolt grade 5 because this grade is a little easier to turn and doesn’t have to be that tough… what needs to be done is to turn the bolt head to the correct OD so the soda bottle fits on top (approximately 0.85”), and it needs to be cut to the proper length to fit inside the die and secure the insert (punch OAL is 1.5”)… here you will have to turn down some of the threads on the bolt so that it can fit through the threaded section of the Lee die and then make contact with the insert… you will also have to drill through this top punch to an ID of approximately 0.42” (a 27/64 drill bit works good here) so the bullets and lead cores can pass through (that’s why this is a pass thru punch), make sure you drill this large ID out in steps just like with the core sizing insert… tangent thought: if you open up this ID to 0.46 you can use the same punch for making 40sw to 45acp, and other parts of this project can be used like this as well, so you might want to think ahead if you decide to make this system... the threaded section that starts at the bolt head is 0.6” long, and the turned section is 0.5” long… you will use a 5/8” fine “jam nut” to act as a locking nut for the top pass thru punch, I had to reduce the thickness of this nut by cutting it in the lathe some so it had room to fit on the threaded part of the top punch… look at the picture, hope this makes sense!

one comment about sharp drill bits, you need absolutely sharp drill bits or this project will not work on these wimpy bench top lathes… if you are a machining mastadon bronze idol and you know how to sharpen drill bits free hand using a bench grinder then more power to you, but for the rest of us mere mortals the Drill Doctor was invented… for $90 you get a machine that accurately and effortlessly gives you sharp drill bits to use, and makes this project doable at home with a small lathe… that’s my story anyway, and I am sticking to it :)

Bottom Punch – you will now make a punch that fits in the ram of your press just like a shell holder, so that you can push the lead cores through the die body… i used a 3/8” grade 5 bolt here, because this material is tough and can handle the repeated compressive forces of lead sizing… the OAL length of this punch is 1.8”, the OD us 0.350, and the nose of the punch is rounded slightly (take a file to radius the edge)… the portion that fits in the ram like a shell holder has an OD of 0.555” and is 0.17” high… make sure this punch is long enough, or you won’t be able to push your cores or bullets through the inserts all the way! I probably should have hardened this punch by heating it with a torch to red, quenching, then tempering in the over for a few hours but I have not done this yet, and I am not sure it is completely necessary…

Sizing Lead Cores – screw in the Lee die body in your press and lock it down with a locking ring (i assume you have one of these laying around)… drop in the die insert and make sure the wider opening is facing down! thread in the top pass thru punch, lock it in with its locking nut… put the bottom punch in the ram… lube up your trimmed lead boolit with lanolin (I have been using straight lanolin, but I know most cut it with castor oil, I just have been too lazy to do this yet, you can see the jar of lanolin in the first pic)… just get a tiny dab on your index finger and wipe it on the boolit, then place the boolit on the ram and push it thru… the die will self-center the lead boolit, but try to get it on the center of the punch as best you can as it will make it easier to push thru... you may have to lower the die body if you don’t feel the boolit being pushed all the way through… I have found that the lube you just put on your finger is enough for about 5 bullet lubings, then you have to dip your finger back in the lanolin jar…

this step goes fast, when you are done you will have a pile of sized lead cores on top of the press inside the plastic bottle, when you are done remove it and dump them in a plastic container for the next step, core seating… the bottle will fit probably 250 cores in it without worries… thats enough for now, more tomorrow...

so how much have you spent so far? $17 on a Lee die body, $10 for a 9mm drill bit, $10 for 12L14 round stock, and maybe $5 for bolts and nuts... better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, eh?

Forrest r

05-25-2013, 09:51 PM

Interesting, looks like all those do-dads kept you busy for awhile.

I got kinda a dumb question. Why not just use a reloading press (you already have one) a 9mm shell holder for that press & a old used 38spl belling die (case expanding die) that can be found at any gunshow for $5 to $10 to open the 9mm case to accept the trimmed cast bullet (core)????

I use a 44spl/mag belling die (case expanding die) on the trimmed to length 40s&w cases to enlarge them & make them able to accept the lead cores to make 45acps.

I also use a 380acp belling die (case expanding die), a lyman with the round part sawed off to make it flat. It is used to enlarge a 40s&w case to be able to be used to make 44spls/mags. Simply drop a lead core (158gr 38 boolit) into a trimmed 40s&w case & run it up in a press with the modified 380acp belling die in it. The belling die will flatten/swage the boolit flat & expand the case walls @ the same time.

Cane_man

05-25-2013, 09:57 PM

Forrest r

05-25-2013, 10:12 PM

Cane_man

05-26-2013, 09:54 AM

[5] Seat Lead Cores

The next step to accomplish is to take the sized lead cores and seat them inside the annealed 9mm brass… this step is easy and you have no parts to fabricate, you just need to acquire the Lee Universal Case Expander Die, again from Leeprecision.com this is what it looks like:

http://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html

http://leeprecision.com/images/P/UniversalExpandingDie.jpg

With this die you will “bell” or widen the case mouth to receive the lead core, and then push the core inside the case (seat it), and it looks like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-seat-3_zps067b4938.jpg

from left to right you have a 9mm shell holder (hopefully you already have this), case with belled mouth, a core placed inside case, the cored seated in the case, and the universal expander die…

here is how it is used: put a case in the shell holder and adjust the die so that you flare out and bell the mouth so it can receive the lead core:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/9b9f1d81-4072-4da5-b175-9b939a0d5c0e_zpsb1cb730e.jpg

now leave the belled case in the shell holder and drop in a core, drop it in so that the base of the boolit/core is facing up, then raise the case into the die so that the core gets pushed in and seated inside the case, just enough so that it is a little below the mouth, easy does it, like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-seat-2_zpse7fc244b.jpg

that’s it, this step is easy… now the seated cores are ready for swaging… i usually push the core in a little and see how deep it is, and do this 2 or 3 times until it is seated deep enough... after awhile you get a feel for it and you will know how deep it is by feel...

the Lee Universal Case Expander die will set you back about $20 delivered, however it has punches that will expand any case, and you can use it for reloading as well… so this die can be used for any reloading or swaging that you will do and it is a good investment…

total project cost so far: $42 from previous steps + $20 for expander die = $62

next step is swaging, and more parts to make...

Cane_man

05-26-2013, 11:32 AM

[6] Swage Cores

Here you are going to actually start swaging, where the lead inside the case will be placed under pressure and expand the case diameter from 0.390 or so to 0.399… to do this you will have to fabricate a few more parts… here are the parts required:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-swage-1_zpsfd31d2bb.jpg

from left to right what you are looking at is: bottom punch, Lee die body (already have this), 0.395 die insert, 0.399 die insert, top “stop” punch, top punch lock nut (already have this), and the top ejection punch… now you need to make these in your lathe…

bottom punch – this punch is made exactly like the bottom punch used for sizing the lead cores, it is 1.5” long and it fits in the ram like a shell holder… here you need to be careful sizing the nose of the punch, it needs to be about 0.350” and radius the edge and the point slightly… make the OD of the punch nose too big and you could wrinkle the case, make it too small and lead will flow up and around the punch and make a mess… take your time with this punch, and get a good polish on the nose area…

die inserts – there are two inserts you will make, just exactly like the lead sizing insert… one insert has an ID of 0.395, and the other 0.399… here I am swaging in two steps to keep the forces down on my press so I don’t beat it up too bad… Corbin says to swage/size/draw no more than 0.005 at a time to keep forces/pressures from being excessive on a standard reloading press so I took this advice to heart with this project… normal swagers who use a real swaging press will swage in one step not two, so keep this in mind, and if you want to swage only using one step then have at it… whatever you do, you are final swaging to 0.001 under the final bullet diameter, so that is why 0.399 was used as the final swage ID based on a final bullet OD of 0.400 … to make the 0.395 die insert use a 10mm drill bit, and to make the 0.399 die insert use a X size drill bit… these are not common sizes and you can find just about any size bit you will need at mcmaster.com… you will have to lap these inserts to the correct ID, take your time and check often by putting the insert in the lee die body and pass thru punch and push through a lead core through it and measure…

top “stop” punch – made similar to the top “pass thru” punch made in the lead core sizing step… dimensions are the same, the only difference is that now you need to drill through the bolt so the ejection punch can go through it… you are going to drill through a ¼” hole, take your time and step up to it… this grade 5 bolt is much harder on the lathe than the 12L14 is so use sharp bits and step up in small increments… once you are done drilling out this hole smooth out and polish the inside and you are done… for the lock nut you can make a new one or just use the same one you made for the top pass thru punch… one more thing, you dont have to turn down the bolt head to fit the soda bottle, i just turned down the edges some and polished it up, do whatever you want with it as it wont matter...

top ejection punch – you are going to start with a 4” long 5/16” grade 8 bolt and turn it down to a diameter of 0.240 or so in order for it to fit easily and smoothly through the top stop punch… this can be a PITA turning down this diameter because the bolt will flex some while chucked in the lathe, so I did the first half of the bolt and then the second half trying to match up the diameters as best I could… these dimensions are not critical like the die insert IDs so just close enough is fine… the punch OAL is about 3.5” give or take a ¼”, so cut it off and part the cut end to this length… polish this punch real well and get a nice smooth finish, and slightly radius the edge of the nose… I used a small rubber washer with a ¼” ID up against the inside of the bolt head so that when you hammer the punch for ejection it would cushion it some when it contacts the top of the punch…

alright, here is how you use these parts… take a case with a seated core and lube it up with lanolin (that is the jar next to the press), then place the case on the punch with the mouth on top of the punch…

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-swage-2_zpsa1dc825a.jpg

now you have to be careful here because you need to adjust the depth of the die body so that the press cams over at just the right time without over-swaging the case… so at first you push it in take it out and check with the mic, push it in take it out and check with the mic, etc. doing this little by little until your core gets sized correctly with the press camming over… easy does it here as it really does not take much force on your press handle to swage the core in one 0.005 increment… at the top of the stroke pause for a few seconds to let the lead flow and completely swage the case... when the press cams over the ejection punch will raise up, to eject the case hit the top of the ejection punch with a hammer (easy does it, little taps until you feel the case start to come out), lower the ram first to get it out of the way and then cup your hand over the mouth of the die body and you can catch it in your hand when it drops out:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-swage-3_zpsecc2c647.jpg

improvement alert - i can easily see the need for an auto eject for the press... it gets to be a pain in the **** hammering out the case after it gets pushed up for swaging… an auto eject will push out the case during the up stroke of the press and it looks fairly easy to make using some flat bar, threaded rod, and nuts/washers, do this and your thumb will like you (don’t ask me how I know this)… I am in the process of making this upgrade now, but it is not mandatory (credit to BT for this design):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/press-auto-eject_zps01d2a8c9.jpg

when the swaged case is finished it will be sized to within 0.001 of final bullet OD:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/core-swage-4_zps4fd170af.jpg

the bullets are now ready for point forming, and most of the hard work is done... so this step has cost you another $10 for at least one drill bit, $5 for a bolts/nuts, and $0.25 for a rubber washer, new project total is $77.25 (or $87.25 if you make two swaging cores adding in another $10 for another drill bit)… not too bad at all :2gunsfiring_v1:

hopefully tomorrow i can go on to post about point forming and final bullet sizing... its all downhill from here as the rest is easy peezy!

Cane_man

05-26-2013, 12:51 PM

Cool!!!

Alls I'm saying is why not use the expander die that is made for the size core that your using? To open a 9mm case to .360 is very doable with nothing more than a shell holder & an old beat up 38spl expander die that costs $5. I'm opening a 40s&w case up from .401 to .430 witn no problem with a old $5 44spl expander die.

oh, i get you now... so what you are doing is eliminating core sizing, and just opening up the case mouth wide enough so the cast boolit lead core drops right in (without having to do a core seating step in the press)... nice! i like that, so you would need to find the right expanding die for whatever caliber your were swaging... duly noted, nice improvement :Bright idea:

Cane_man

05-26-2013, 06:39 PM

went to walmart and got me a $4 box in the fishing dept to box up the parts in, then went home and reloaded 50 in my new awesome possum 10mm reloading tray (he is selling these in the swapin/sellin section, they are a great deal and nice workmanship)...

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/loaded_zpsa032404c.jpg

redneck swaging!

khmer6

05-26-2013, 07:06 PM

Awesome and subscribed. I don't have much machining skills but not afraid, worked with cars and what not for years. Friend owns a professional machine shop that does most of the imports on the entire west coast. My brother is a cnc machinest by trade. I should of exploited my resources a long time ago

newcastter

05-26-2013, 10:23 PM

Cane_man

05-26-2013, 10:41 PM

customcutter

05-26-2013, 10:43 PM

This has been great to follow except I have one discrepency, On the Cheap and You need to have a Lathe dont make any sense they cancel each other out.
I would like to start doing this for 40 S&W brass to .45 Acp but do not know any one with even a drill press...

Do a daily check on craigslist, newspaper ads, local flyers. Took me 6 months to find a lightly used 14X40 with lots of tooling for $700. I've seen 7X12's for as low as $175, that looked almost new.

CC

newcastter

05-27-2013, 12:31 AM

LOL, i know it assume you already have a small hobby lathe... but look at it this way, you can get the lathe for $300-$500, this is still cheaper than a $750-$1200 professional swaging system, and in the end you keep the lathe...

Even if I do score a good deal on a lathe my only other rebuttal is that I would still have to learn the tooling with no previous experience.

plus1hdcp

05-27-2013, 01:20 AM

Thank you for sharing your adventure in swaging.

khmer6

05-27-2013, 02:13 AM

Can't wait to see the point forming step. Just to be clear, does the top stop punch presses against the lead core and expands the brass casing?

Forrest r

05-27-2013, 06:24 AM

newcaster you don't need anything but a couple of common reloading dies/trimmers/bullet molds/sizing dies to make 45acp bullets out of 40s&w cases.

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 08:21 AM

Even if I do score a good deal on a lathe my only other rebuttal is that I would still have to learn the tooling with no previous experience.

easy to learn, lots of youtube tutorials on how to do these basic lathe operations... i am a self taught home machinist and it probably took me a few weekends to learn the basics and that is all that is required for this project... and using a lathe for diddling around at home for various projects is just plain fun!

i will add this, when you do get your lathe you will probably have to spend another $50-$100 for the tooling like a drill chuck for the tail stock, a live center, some drill bits, a few files, and some cutting tools...

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 08:23 AM

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 08:38 AM

Can't wait to see the point forming step. Just to be clear, does the top stop punch presses against the lead core and expands the brass casing?

actually what is happening is that the bottom punch is pushing up on the lead inside the case, causing the lead the flow in all directions and expand/swage the 9mm case from 0.390 to 0.399... the case is pressed between the top stop punch and the bottom punch, like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/swage-pic_zpsc305fe07.jpg

you are going to be disappointed with point forming, it is anticlimactic it is so simple! i am going out to shoot my 10 this morning then later i will post on point forming and bullet sizing and wrap this thread up for now...

.

khmer6

05-27-2013, 09:12 AM

Ahhhhh so true. I didn't see the pic of the case being upside down. Can't wait to see what trickery you have for point forming. My 10s are begging for jackets, we'll not really. I just like to push them hard

khmer6

05-27-2013, 09:14 AM

I got to thinking. Some seating stems are shaped to certain boolit profile type. What if one were to use a seating die or maybe rig up a die with a seating stem to point form?

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 09:21 AM

^^^ you are on the right track, actually what i will use a 220 Swift sizing die for point forming... if you glance through the thread that i linked in the OP CB member Danr lists the dies you can use for just about all the popular pistol calibers, he is the one that nutted this all out...

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 02:07 PM

[7] Point Forming

Getting close to finishing now, all that is left if point forming and sizing… here are the parts you need to make or acquire:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/point1_zpsacc36e52.jpg

from left to right is the longer bottom punch (you already made this), a Lee 220 Swift sizing die with modified decapping pin (you need to get this), and this is what is needed next:

Lee 220 Swift Sizing Die – you are going to use this die to form the point… the shoulder forming part of the die makes a really nice truncated cone type of ogive for the bullet… that is the genius of this system (thanks to others figuring this out) is that you don’t have to make a point forming die because Lee has already done this for you… only thing you will have to do is remove the small “pin” part of the decapping pin and the rest fits nicely in the die as is… Lee won’t let you just buy the die itself, so you have to buy all the parts for it, which include the sizer die body, the decapper clamp, and the decapper pin, and while you are at it get the die lock ring as well:

http://leeprecision.com/size-die-body-220s.html
http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-1560.jpg

http://leeprecision.com/decapper-clamp.html
http://leeprecision.com/images/P/2151.jpg

http://leeprecision.com/223-ez-x-exp-decapper.html
http://leeprecision.com/images/P/2172.jpg

all total this will set you back another $18.50... only mod you need to do is file off the decapper pin point section, then flip it around and it makes a great ejection punch… if you look in the pic below you can see how I have oriented it…

to point form the swaged core all you need to do is lube the top third of the case, put the case on the bottom punch case mouth pointing up, and then push it up in the die… you need to go easy here and adjust the depth of the die little by little until you get the ogive you are looking for… you should be able to cam over the ram at the top of the stroke, but if you push too much of the case in the die then then case mouth will start to bell out and lead will overflow the edge… play with it and you will see what I mean… one small item that is harmless is that this die has a bleeder hole on it right on the shoulder, and when you point form it will put a small dimple on the ogive which affects absolutely nothing in the performance of the bullet… if you are anal retentive this will bother you, but just relax because it is no biggie considering how cost effective that bullet was to make!

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/point2_zps66d8134f.jpg

here you can see the ejection pin rise up at the top of the stroke, also notice that the thicker part of the decapping pin is on top of the die… now just lower the ram and put a little tap on the ejection pin and the bullet comes out easily in your cupped hand

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/point3_zps08c99842.jpg

alright, you have just put a nice truncated cone type ogive on your bullet, but in the process the bullet OD went from 0.399 to 0.4015, which is too big of course and now you have to size it down to 0.4000 or so and you will do that next during sizing:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/point4_zps7f8d7012.jpg

that's all there is to point forming, it goes very fast and once you have the die adjusted properly you can knock them out quickly... if you go to the url for the thread i posted in the OP there are rifle sizing dies listed there that will work very well for point forming other calibers like 45acp, 44mag, 9mm, etc... here is a quick summary:

45 ACP (.451) - 243 winchester (.454)
44 mag (.430) - 244 remington (.429)
38 Spl & 357 - 222 remington (.357)
9mm (.355) lee (.356) - 17 remington (.356)

at this point you are in for another $18.50, adding this to the previous costs gives a total project cost of $95.75, and you are ready to finish sizing your bullets…

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 02:36 PM

[8] Final J-Word Sizing

You are at the end now and ready to finish size the bullets, here are the parts you will use:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/size1_zpsfcdb9322.jpg

from left to right you have the longer bottom punch (you already made this), the Lee die body, a 0.3995 ID die insert, and the top “pass thru” punch (you already made this)… here are the parts you need to make:

die insert – you need to turn a new die insert with an ID of 0.3995 to 0.4000… make this just like you did the others, you can final drill it out with an X size drill bit which you already have… take your time lapping to the final OD, place it in the die and pass thru some lead cores to check the ID several times during the lapping process… this step took me the longest, and I want to say it took a few hours to lap it carefully to the final diameter…

improvement alert: if you look at the pic above for the top pass thru punch you will see what looks like a thin washer on the bottom part of the threaded section… what I found is that the lock nut didn’t tighten down on the die body very well and would work loose… I needed a very thin type of lock washer I could use with it… I was poking around the hardware store and found some 11/16” diameter “Internal Housing Rings” that work awesome as very thin lock washers… I picked up a couple of them and now have incorporated them with the top punches…

now you are ready to drop in the core and tighten it down for final sizing… I found that the red Lee plastic catch bins that come with sizing dies fit perfectly on top of the top pass thru punch and it seems to have the same ID as a soda bottle… you just lube up the bullet and push it thru just like you did with core sizing… you may have to adjust the die depth to make sure the bullet is pushed all the way through at the top of the stroke, you will feel it go all the way to the top:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/size2_zps3d1c8a49.jpg

the bullets will collect at the top and you can size several hundred at a time and have them collect at the top of the die...

here is the finished product… notice that the die is sized for 0.3995 but the bullet has some “spring back” and final sized at 0.4000, which is right on spec:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/size3_zpsf6280b6b.jpg

last thing to consider which is optional is to remove the lanolin from the bullets... I chose to do this in walnut media with the vibratory tumbler, I added a couple of cap fulls of mineral spirits and let them clean for an hour and they were bright and shiny with no more lube on them…

there it is, I hope this helps someone get going on swaging their own bullets… and the final project cost? $95.75, can you say cheap! :guntootsmiley:

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 05:43 PM

One item on the improvement list is heat treating... not sure if it is absolutely necessary, but why not check it out?

I don't have a heat treating oven, but 12L14 won't heat treat anyway so that is not a loss, but it will case harden... I learned of this case hardening compound called Cherry Red and decided to pick up a 1# jar from an online horseshoeing place, the cherry red looks like this:

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/primary/119/119479.jpg

all you do is heat the object up to "cherry red", immerse it in the compound, heat it back up to cherry red, then quench in water and clean up the part, they have a nice youtube vid to show how it is done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tlsq2ESQz0

so i decided to give it a try... what it does is case harden the first 0.005 or surface thickness of the material and increase the hardness...

i performed the necessary steps (used mapp gas and it worked pretty good in my canister style torch), then cleaned up the part... i decided to use the core sizer insert because that is an easy part to make and if i screwed it up it would be no big loss... after i cleaned it up i ran some cores through it and two things happened:

1) the cores were sized smaller - so this case hardening process added some material, or something increased the ID

2) it was easier to push thru the cores - maybe with a harder surface there is less friction?

Not sure of the outcome just yet, i need to clean up this part tomorrrow and resize from 0.353 back to 0.355 and go from there... anyway, it was easy to do but not sure if i will harden the other cores like this yet...

edit: well i know that this process works, i cleaned up the core sizing die and then tried to scribe the sizing on it and my little electric scribe could barely etch the surface... the cores just fly through like hot butter, not nearly the resistance as before...

not sure how much harder as i dont have a hardeness tester... anyone who has a BH tester like to receive a sample and test it for me? i would send it to you, you test it, then throw the sample away when done... let me know- thanks.

khmer6

05-27-2013, 07:16 PM

Really strange how Lee does sell the entire die by itself. They sell lots of other sizing or expanding dies by themselves. Also the deluxe 3 die set for 220 swift can be had for about 28$ sell the other 2 dies and possible make your money back. Can the bottom punch from the 356-401 sizing kit from Lee be used as well? For someone who has lots of Lee tools the only thing I see needed to make would be the swaging process. It might be possible to get a. 399 sizing die for this process, something to plug the top and eject the swaged case.
Would cut down too long and expenses even more cuz I'm a cheap ****.
1.) size cores
2.) use universal expander to expand case mouth and seat cores
3.) get a 399 sizing die and plug the top to swage.
4.) point form in 220 swift sizing die.

Cane_man

05-27-2013, 08:02 PM

Can the bottom punch from the 356-401 sizing kit from Lee be used as well?

this is redneck swaging anything is possible, if it fits in the die and pushes the case up high enough then sure why not...

dont forget final sizing at the end, this is important! you can't oversize jwords like you can boolits, be careful

customcutter

05-27-2013, 08:55 PM

Cane: Thanks for finishing this process up so quickly. I need to reread the entire post again, and then break it down into smaller parts. As soon as I can find a source for 9mm., .40, and .45. I will be making more reamers and dies. It's getting late, and my headache is not conducive to following everything.

CC

customcutter

05-27-2013, 09:25 PM

Even if I do score a good deal on a lathe my only other rebuttal is that I would still have to learn the tooling with no previous experience.

Newcaster, look for a deal, at least look for a couple of months. By then you'll have some experience, to judge the value of what you are looking at. Also be aware that tooling can be worth as much or more than the machine. I'm talking about extra chucks, follow rest, steady rest, indicators, DRO's, carbide tooling, drill chuck for the tail stock, live centers, indexable tool holders for the tailstock, quick change tool posts. I know it's all greek right now, but do your homework, trust me it will be time well spent if you decide to go this route. Machinery can be dangerous, so make sure you know the safety rules also. If you can run a drill, circular saw, table saw, drill press, etc., you can learn to run a lathe or mill. If you reload and haven't blown your self up, then you can follow instructions. Don't think you can't do it just because you've never done it before. Also if you get a good deal and decide it's not for you, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it.

just my .02,
CC

newcastter

05-28-2013, 09:24 AM

Newcaster, look for a deal, at least look for a couple of months. By then you'll have some experience, to judge the value of what you are looking at. Also be aware that tooling can be worth as much or more than the machine. I'm talking about extra chucks, follow rest, steady rest, indicators, DRO's, carbide tooling, drill chuck for the tail stock, live centers, indexable tool holders for the tailstock, quick change tool posts. I know it's all greek right now, but do your homework, trust me it will be time well spent if you decide to go this route. Machinery can be dangerous, so make sure you know the safety rules also. If you can run a drill, circular saw, table saw, drill press, etc., you can learn to run a lathe or mill. If you reload and haven't blown your self up, then you can follow instructions. Don't think you can't do it just because you've never done it before. Also if you get a good deal and decide it's not for you, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it.

just my .02,
CC
Thanks for the advice, I have already spent some time researching you tube vids and pricing online so I feel I have a better understanding but a ton to learn, I am pretty mechanically inclined so I am confident I can learn just would be better if I had some hands on training I will keep on the look out for a good deal, again thanks for the advice.

Cane_man

05-29-2013, 06:21 PM

improvement alert: i roughed out the auto eject today... the old lady went shopping so what was i supposed to do? anyway, i will have to redo my punch, but all i can say is that if you do this project YOU NEED AUTO EJECT! details later...

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/auto-eject_zps50563be8.jpg

customcutter

05-29-2013, 06:56 PM

Looks good. I guess you use an allen bolt on the back side to secure the eject pin?

CC

Cane_man

05-29-2013, 09:12 PM

i am just slamming it down right now for proof of concept, but i think i will probably turn a new punch and have the top part threaded so i can secure it to the top bar....

customcutter

05-29-2013, 09:34 PM

Your idea may be better. I don't know how well the pin would line up with the die if it moves up with the ram each time, and then back down into the die? As long as the ejector pin has a rim or shoulder on it so that it can't fall through the die after ejecting the j-word, I wouldn't worry about it.

CC

khmer6

05-29-2013, 09:40 PM

Maybe a washer or something so it doesn't fall too deep into the die and slam it. Or thread the hole and pin sorta like the gauge/trimmer and thread it into the bar

Cane_man

05-29-2013, 09:50 PM

the top bar height is adjustable so you can set it so that it doesn't touch the top of the die, i am just slamming it right now so i can play with my new toy...

what i think i may do is mill/file a small "slot" on the top bar so the bolt/punch has some play and the position somewhat adjustable, so it can be aligned correctly each time at setup and locked down with a nut & lock washer...

i guessed on the dimensions for the bar i got lucky, i printed a pic from the archives and scaled it with a ruler knowing that the ram is 1" diameter:

-flat bar is 1-1/2" wide by 1/2" thick, 8" long, used 1018 cuz i dont know any better

-all thread is 3/8"-16

the hole for the ram was a PITA! i have an el cheapo drill press and i used a 1" bi-metal hole saw from HD and it took me over an hour to drill it out with lots of starts-stops-oiling!

http://www.ivyclassic.com/img/product/28012_1.jpg

drilled and tapped a 1/4"-20 threaded hole right at the ram, and a 1" cap screw secures it, fits real well as the RCBS RC ram is hollowed out some on the inside...

alfloyd

05-30-2013, 01:44 PM

In post #9 you said:
"top ejection punch – you are going to start with a 4” long 5/16” grade 8 bolt and turn it down to a diameter of 0.240 or so in order for it to fit easily and smoothly through the top stop punch… this can be a PITA turning down this diameter because the bolt will flex some while chucked in the lathe"

Why not just use a 1/4 bolt and not turn it down.
That is what I use for my top punches in my dies I make.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Lafaun

Cane_man

05-30-2013, 06:30 PM

^^^ sooooooo, where were you 2 weeks ago? :)

i thought the threads might scratch the inserts since initially i wasn't going to case harden them, but now that i have added the case hardening this would probably work fine... but the punch looks so cool when it is polished!

btw - your tip on annealing the brass in the Lee 4-20 is beast, big time saver

alfloyd

05-31-2013, 12:04 AM

threads might scratch the inserts

Not, just get a longer bolt, such as a 6 inch, and cut off the threads.
This way you have a 4.5 inch punch with no threads.
TaDa, no threads to scratch the inserts.

Lafaun

Cane_man

05-31-2013, 12:46 PM

success! here is the auto eject on the press downstroke when swaging a case:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/autoeject001_zpscec1fdd6.jpg

and then the case is ejected on the press upstroke, much easier than using a hammer on the top eject punch and takes far less effort:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/autoeject002_zps8a027bfe.jpg

is it pretty? No, but it would look fine on a walmart shelf, and it is functional!

what i ended up doing was turning down a 5" long 3/8" grade 8 bolt, leaving about 3/4" of the threads near the head, then securing it with nut/washer/lockwasher... it turned out to be much less drama than i thought to get this part completed...

if you add this to the project you are out another $25 or so for the flat bar, all thread, nuts/bolts/washer, and bi-metal hole saw... not bad considering it will cost your upwards of $150 if someone else makes it for you, but $25 well spent for this project... 8-)

but now i have a new problem: the shells shoot out like a bat out of Hades when ejected, i need some type of catch basin, any suggestions? the space to catch the shells is limited, irregular, and must stay on the bottom of the press and fit around the ram and bottom flat... ???

Cane_man

05-31-2013, 06:05 PM

Heat Treating Update

looks like the method i am using for case hardening is working, but it is warping the cores and the bullets swage/size out of round!

so i plan to scrap these inserts that were case hardened and make new ones... live and learn (that's part of what makes this project more fun, btw)... so if the cores wear some over thousands of bullets it just isn't a big deal to turn a new insert... so that is what i need to do this weekend, remake the 3 inserts then i am going to swage a batch of 250 with the auto eject and it should go much easier and faster...

Forrest r

06-01-2013, 09:51 AM

Wow!!!

Did you quench your parts in brine or oil or just water?

customcutter

06-01-2013, 11:03 AM

Looking good. Can you run them back through a final sizer die from Lee??? Maybe you could contact a commercial heat treater to see if they can heat treat and eliminate any warpage?

CC

Cane_man

06-01-2013, 01:50 PM

i followed the directions on Cherry Red and quenched in water... i never follow directions so maybe i should have quenched in oil instead... this 12L14 won't heat treat so case hardening is my only option...

i ran the bullet through my final sizer insert and it would get close to eliminating the egg but not good enough, and i didn't really want to run them through the sizer 3 or 4 times anyway... i think i would have the same problem with a Lee sizer

i had another thought that i could size the insert a few thou or three under, case harden, the use a drill bit or reamer to get close then lap to final ID... this suff gets pretty hard! not sure how well a drill bit would do on it, but what the heck i can turn an insert in 10' i might just give it a try because the cases eject much easier in a case hardened insert...

Forrest r

06-02-2013, 08:43 AM

I don't know if it helps with distortion any on soft steel but I use a soupcan furnace to get an even heat on the entire piece being hardened & quench everything in oil. Water will boil creating air pockets (steam) around the metal being cooled causing the part to cool unevenly creating warpage.

Some metals/case hardeners call for water quenching. It's better to use a brine than strait water, a typical brine is 3/4# of salt to 1 gallon of water. The brine will cut down on the amount of air/steam that is around the part being cooled.

Personally I like to use oil (old harley oil), it's full of carbon. It works to heat treat different grades of harder steel & can be used to simple quench hot steel.

You might consider taking one of your out of round dies & drilling it out to a larger dia & checking it for roundness. Then re-heat treating it but use oil instead & see what helps. The other thing that most people overlook with heat treating steel is the more even the heat the better, the more even the cooling the better. Someone that is heat treating a shaft for a pulley or a pin to hold a mower deck on isn't really concerned about 2 or 3/1000th's of warpage.

Something else to consider:
You are heating what is nothing more than a tube and a tube is harder to heat evenly than a solid shaft. A solid shaft(bolt, rod, pin, etc.) takes longer to heat but the heat will spread evenly throughout the metal. A tube on the other had will draw air thru it cooling part of the tube & making it harder to transfer heat evenly. I don't know what your setting/resting/holding the parts your heat treating with but that will definitely affect how even your parts are heated.

In heating, 1700* here & 1575* on the other side ='s warpage
In cooling, 100* water here & 500* steam there ='s warpage

I'm sure you will figure it out, everything else you've done has been well thought out.

When I started using the soupcan furnaces the quality of what I was heat treating went to the next level (even heat). A pic of the 2 furnaces I use, nothing high-tech just a soupcan & a coffee can lined with ceramic insulation. But when you heat something in either of these you don't get any hot or cold spots in the part being heated.

7229072291

Cane_man

06-02-2013, 06:00 PM

got tired of the swaged cases shooting all over the floor and counter top when ejected... went to walmart, kitchen section, plastic kitchen thingy $0.74, took some shop scissors to it & drilled a hole and here is what i came up with:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/autoeject-catcher_zps00f2ed4b.jpg

the little plastic catcher on the back really works... most of the time the bullets bounce to the catcher or sit on top of the flat bar, about a third will bounce out the front and they are easy to snag with an open hand (if you can aim a gun and hit a target you will have the manual dexterity to catch it), every once in a while they will hit the ground or squirt off to the side but that is like one in 50... this is much better than without the catcher and something you will want to add... i know you can come up with something better so post a pic if you do

i was swaging about 400 cases today, it is amazing how much heat is generated by this process... the die warms up, the case comes out warmer, etc.

Lube Update - i had been using straight lanolin because i was too lazy to mix it up with some castor oil... a cb member swears by using 1/2 Millitec Oil and 1/2 Lanolin, i mixed some up and thought the straight lanolin was better... i have yet to try the 50/50 mix with castor oil... not sure if i will do this as the Lanolin works really well, and the wifey says it gives me soft skin 8-) , hey whatever it takes to keep the old lady happy... the Lanolin could be working well because the hot weather has set in here and it is very thin, and i can see that in the winter the Lanolin will be much more viscous and perhaps that is where cutting it with oil will be a benefit...

Cane_man

06-02-2013, 06:08 PM

Forrest r

06-02-2013, 08:33 PM

It's low tech but it works. Use nothing more than a plain old benz-o-matic torch, you can see the hole in the side of the small soup can where I stick the torch in. You can use map gas (yellow bottle) but it's really a waste of money compared to propane (blue bottle). The map gas will get a little over 2000* in one of these furnaces & the propane will get around 1900*.

You can get the ceramic insulation where they sell wood burning fireplaces or kilns for pottery, etc. It normally sells for $20 for a 12" x12"x 1" thick piece.

When I heat something in 1 of these small ovens I still rotate the part 90* after it becomes bright cherry red to make sure it has been heated evenly. I've worked in a couple machine shops & for machinists over the decades & have done my fare share of heat treating. I'm not saying I have a trained eye for the correct color of red/orange. But I can say I use nothing more than a magnet to test the heated parts when I think the temperature is correct. After prying red hot parts off of a magnet for awhile I got a pretty good eye for it. A magnet is your friend, when you think it's hot enough, give it a little longer then test.

This might sound stupid, buttttttt. Why not just buy annealed steel or a better grade of hardened steel or grade 5/8 bolts & anneal them to be able to easily machine them them simply re-heat treat them? Heat treating is a lot easier than case hardening & annealing is easier than either of the hardening processes. Buy a machinery's handbook, some ceramic insulation & some better grades of steel. The machinery's handbook will have tables in it that will tell you the temps & what medium to use to heat treat, quench & anneal the different grades/types of steel.

72395

Cane_man

06-02-2013, 09:07 PM

done! got me a foot of the 1" thick on evilbay for $22...

are you leaving the can open on one end when heating, or are you covering it?

are you saying that if you are at the correct temp it is no longer magnetic... just touch a small magnet to it to test?

this case hardening is pretty easy to do with these small parts... if i can get it heated evenly i think it wont warp anymore + quenching in oil or brine water, and i hope this little soup can oven will be the trick...

supe47

06-02-2013, 09:41 PM

"But I can say I use nothing more than a magnet to test the heated parts when I think the temperature is correct. After prying red hot parts off of a magnet for awhile I got a pretty good eye for it. A magnet is your friend, when you think it's hot enough, give it a little longer then test."

A piece of iron will ordinarily be attracted to a magnet, but when you heat the iron to a high enough temperature (called the Curie point), it loses its ability to be magnetized. Heat energy scrambles the iron atoms so that they can't line up and create a magnetic field. Here is a simple demonstration of this effect.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/curie_point/

Got my learnin' done for the day. Thanks Forrest r.
Supe

Cane_man

06-02-2013, 10:01 PM

"Another way to tell that it's too cold is by its Curie point. The Curie point is the temperature where a magnetic alloy becomes non-magnetic or visa-versa. For low-alloy steel, the curie point is 1414º F. A quick touch with a magnet will tell you if you are over the curie point. Typically, you should stay over 1500º F. Of course, there is the color vs temperature method to determine its temperature. Once the part is the shape you want, you can let it cool on its own to form a normalized structure or you can quench it to harden it by forming martensite. Don't forget to temper it."

"When you are done, you will have a decarburized layer. The best method for removing this layer is with a file. You will know when you have removed it when the file doesn't remove as much as easily. The decarburized layer is all ferrite. Ferrite is much softer than tempered martensite. I have done this at home with small parts using a torch. If the grade of steel is not very harden able, you will need to quench it in brine (10 percent salt water). If its very hardenable, brine will crack it. Use an oil for these steels. As with any quenching operation, agitation accelerates the quenching operation. I have never done large parts at home. You would need a large hot fire. I would suggest reading a blacksmithing FAQ. However all of the metallurgy remains the same."

interesting, wish i had looked at this earlier...

http://www.rocketmaterials.org/research/metallurgy/

khmer6

06-02-2013, 10:46 PM

This thread just keeps getting better. From milling to heat treating :thumbup:

Forrest r

06-03-2013, 06:49 AM

I leave the end open to be able to see, move, rotate the parts I'm heat treating ot annealing. You'll be amazed at how quickly the parts will heat up in 1 of these little ovens. Just make sure you rotate the part 90* when you think it's ready & heat it a little more before you test it with a magnet.

good luck

mrjohn

06-03-2013, 07:05 PM

thanks Cane man for your info love this thread!
I like how you put this together.

Cane_man

06-03-2013, 08:17 PM

thanks mrjohn, it has been a lot of fun... swaging and making swaging stuff is about as much fun as you can have without a permit (credit NZ jeff!)...

WY, my son is there right now for his freshman orientation as he will be in Laramie in school starting in the Fall... looks awesome wish i lived here

Cane_man

06-08-2013, 11:07 PM

working on [1] a lead core trimmer similar to a core cutter for trimming my 357 bullets to use as cores, and [2] using O1 for the inserts and heat treating then tempering instead of using 12L14 and case hardening... Forest really got me to reassess this and in the long run the O1 may be the way to go for us rednecks doing this at home on the cheap and it may make it possible to eliminate 2 steps and swage in one step instead of two and eliminate the core sizing as well... give me another week, it is freaking 107F today and summer has arrived early in the CA central valley with the garage being just too hot to get anything done for more than an hour or so... :redneck:

customcutter

06-08-2013, 11:23 PM

Cane, good luck getting back in the garage. It's been summer time here for a couple of weeks now. I'm going to have to airconditon my garage. First thing though I've got to get over this sinus infection that has now turned into bronchitis. If I go out into the humidty for 10 minutes I spend the next couple of hours trying to cough up a lung. Been on antibiotics for 2 weeks, shots last Dr visit, and the worst part a steroid inhaler. I don't see how people "abuse" those things, makes me "jittery" as all get out. Can't even stand to be around myself, much less anyone else.:D I felt a little better for the first time yesterday so I went out in the garage and played around with the derimming die. I'm paying the price today though.

CC

Cane_man

06-08-2013, 11:35 PM

will pray for your healing cc... often times the only help is from above as He is good

customcutter

06-08-2013, 11:38 PM

will pray for your healing cc... often times the only help is from above as He is good

Amen, hoping to make it to Church in the AM. 7 days without Church makes one weak, if I don't make it tomorrow that will be the 3rd Sunday I'll miss.

Thanks for the prayers,
CC

Cane_man

06-15-2013, 09:33 PM

wanted to make sure in added this to this thread... above i was cutting the cast boolits with tin snips, this gave a 5 grain or so variation in the cores... so i decided to make a type of core cutter to get a little more consistent... not really a core cutter as most of you guys are using lead wire or something similar, where all i need to do is trim off the ogive of a cast boolit to get the desired core weight i need... here is the business side where you can see the insert where the boolit would be inserted with the ogive sticking out ready to trim to length:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/blade003_zpsf74f6702.jpg

i set it up so i can use different inserts for different size of boolits, and adjust how much of the ogive will stick out with an adjustment screw... you can almost see the backside where i just clamped it to the top of my press, there is the insert with a tiny ejection punch... trimming this way initially had my boolits within 0.5 grains of each other, before i was using tin snips and getting 5+ grain variations so i am very pleased with this setup…

here is the backside with the ejection punch (just push it to get the boolit out), trimmer clamped to the press, and a small plastic bin underneath to catch the lead ogive trimmings:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/cutter-back001_zps5eaf76ea.jpg

khmer6

06-15-2013, 10:03 PM

I know we are trying to keep it cheap and simple as possible. But does Lee sell straight out blank molds. Could possible cut a core mold from a blank

Randy C

06-15-2013, 10:13 PM

:coffeecom

Cane_man

06-15-2013, 10:15 PM

^^^ yes Lee sells blank molds...

i am moving on now to 22LR to .224 swaging and i just bought a used Lyman 2 cav round ball mold off of evilbay for a decent price and i plan to flip it over and drill it out for my 0.1875 cores... but i am sure you could do the same thing for the 40sw/10mm cores...

edit: khmer6, cc is making his own core mold right now as you suggest, you might check out his thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?202440-Making-molds-for-casting-cores&p=2263296&viewfull=1#post2263296

Cane_man

07-17-2013, 04:09 PM

i have just finished my first working version of my 22LR to .224 dies and had some time to come back to this set and redo a sizing die with heat treating and tempering... since i last worked on this 9mm to .40sw/10mm i am satisfied with a heat treating regimen that i can recommend...

i redid a 0.4000 final sizing die using O-1 tool steel, heat treated, and tempered... i no longer use the 12L14 steel for dies as this material can't be heat treated and the case hardening results are not consistent... it is far easier to heat treat the O-1 so that is all i am suing now for die materials...

you buy the O-1 in the annealed state and it can be machined without too much trouble on my small 7x12 hobby lathe, and after tempering it is around 50 RC hardness and is much more durable that the 12L14, and it has much less friction as well when swaging the cases...

here are some steps to heat treat O-1 if you are making inserts like it did for this project:

1) turn your insert to within approximately 0.002 of final dimensions, so for this final sizing insert i drilled than lapped to 0.398 and it was ready for heat treating... leaving the die undersize like this will help to eliminate any warpage or out of roundness encountered when heating the die

2) to heat treat i recommend you make a small "coffee can" heat treating oven like the one show by Forest earlier in this thread, you need to get some 1" ceramic insulation like the type used for wood stoves... i got some on evilbay for ~ $20 for one foot square, looks something like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/derim2_zpsff90fb6e.jpg

3) preheat the die insert, just turn your flame on the torch to the lowest setting and slowly heat the die up... do this over about 5' or so, you will see it turn blue than back to a pewter color and then it is ready to put in the oven for heat treating

4) place in the oven and heat to orange for heat treating, just like you see in the picture above, as the die is heating up slowly turn it about 1/4 turn over 15 seconds or so, i use some small tongs for this with welding gloves... be careful that oven gets hot! i am using map gas here and i like it better than the blue propane canisters but i hear those work well too

5) once the die turns a uniform orange do not let it sit there, take it out to quench it in a small can of motor oil... use pure oil not synthetic, use the tongs to grip the top of the die and thrust it in vertically moving it up and down quickly... careful: the surface of the oil will burst into flames, but it gives me a cheap thrill so no worries as you can just blow the flames out like it was candles on a birthday cake...

6) before you heat up the die in (3) above you want to preheat your kitchen oven to 350F... don't let the part sit in the quenching oil a long time, you want to pull the part out while it is still fairly warm and too hot to touch, pull it out of the oil after about 30 seconds or so and have a shop rag ready to put the die on... now get a small pan or something similar and put the part in the oven to temper for 1 hour at 350F... if you don't temper properly the die will be too brittle and fracture like this one die on the left, split right in half:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/temper001_zps7fa13c13.jpg

7) now that the die is tempered it is ready to be lapped to final sizing... the finished die is above on the right, it is around 50 RC and has good strength now that it is tempered and should last over 10s of thousands of bullets...

i am putting this swaging die set away for a while as i made about 400 200 gr 10mm rounds and that will last me until the winter when deer season is over, but i have a few more mods and upgrades to make on this set like a point forming die with an elliptical ogive (this die was a mystery but now i know how to make them :) ), and i will post them here as i do...

remember, you can do this at home too, fire away with any questions as i am more than happy to help anyone get going on this project... no need to wait 2 years to get your swaging dies you can make them yourself just the way you want them and have the satisfaction that you made the dies and the bullets... :guntootsmiley:

Cane_man

02-03-2014, 10:43 PM

I have not forgot about my 10mm/40sw dies... i fully intend to make a point forming die for a 200gr HP but other projects are in the way right now, like the 7mm 140gr dies i am into right now... i have ideas for some further improvement as well.. as always pm or post if you need more info :coffee: oh, if you have a lathe you want to get rid of pm me

customcutter

02-04-2014, 08:03 PM

You have mail!

nhrifle

06-08-2014, 01:41 PM

Somehow I missed this thread and it's an interesting read! I started learning to make reamers a couple of years ago. I have not yet made a furnace and just use a torch to heat the part, but a furnace is in my future.

I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences with heat treating O1. Initially (for about a year and change, truth be told), my efforts to harden tool steel yielded one of two results: a)the heat treated piece was left basically annealed and was destroyed upon initial use, or b) the heat treated piece was made too hard and was brittle as glass. Most of the reamers I made would enter the drilled hole, cut a few chips, and then SNAP! It was a bit more than frustrating.

Originally, I was using automotive oils to quench. I even got used to the flames and the parts coming out of the oil black with soot. I came across a couple of old machining reference books that had excellent write ups on heat treating and tempering and they spoke of using natural vegetable and nut oils, with the benefit being the high flash point, allowing quenching a part without having an insulating layer of bubbles surrounding the rapidly cooling steel, which would lead to uneven cooling. I tried it, and I like it! Just regular vegetable oil used for cooking -- no flame, no smoke, and the part comes out nice and clean with no carbon to remove.

Also, there was a description of torch heating and tempering that works quite well. Bring the part to a bright cherry red and hold it there for a bit. When ready to quench, just give the first inch or so of the part a quick dip in the oil and remove it. Allow the residual heat from the rest of the part to heat soak into the quenched area for a couple of seconds or so, then fully submerge into the oil with a gentle stirring motion.

I am not a metallurgist, so don't ask me to properly explain the mechanics of what's happening, but what I think is happening is the initial partial and quick plunge into the oil is giving a rapid cooling with resulting hardness, then when it is removed and allowed to heat soak, the heat remaining in the shank will travel into the quenched area and effectively temper it. This may not work for everyone, but I have made several good reamers this way and they cut as well as anything from a tool supplier.

Cane_man

06-09-2014, 10:40 PM

good idea on the vegetable oil, i tried it this afternoon on a pointing die i am wrestling with right now... it was cleaner for sure, but it did flash and there was some black soot on the die but nothing like with when using motor oil...may try again if it works out on this die

Gun_nut83

06-09-2014, 11:11 PM

I am on page 2 of this and really wanting to read this in great detail. I wanted to thank you in advance for providing this post for those who want to try swaging on the cheap. Unfortunately it's well past my bed time and I will finish this later.

nhrifle

06-14-2014, 08:38 AM

Cane Man I hope you don't mind but I am borrowing your engineering, have started making my own set for swaging 9mm bullets from 3/8" brass tubing. Have several inserts finished, but no one in my area has the 5/8"-18 bolts. I'm either going to have to order them or cut some on my mini lathe, which may not happen since I have read that is pretty much beyond its capability. Biggest I have done so far has been 3/8-16.

Cane_man

06-14-2014, 10:06 AM

NH by all means please take whatever might help and then improve on what i have done, but report back when you do! that was the entire purpose of the thread is to share ideas, and to get others to get off the computer and in the shop to start making their own dies...

nhrifle

06-14-2014, 07:50 PM

Not too much to look at right now, but I will post pics, what I did, how I did it and what worked and didn't. Good info in this thread!

nhrifle

06-18-2014, 12:37 PM

Been working on these as time permits (dam job!) and I think I am coming along nicely. I have a method to cut the tubing and trim it to length, have made the rounding die (starts to close the base of the jacket), the rounding punch, and the push thru sizer die to draw the jackets to .350". Lots of work left to do and I will need to fine tune what I have made so far. I am starting with a jacket length of .800" to see if I need them shorter or longer. All machined parts are made from 01 tool steel, except for the threaded insert which holds the inserts into the die body. Those are made from 304 stainless, which are cutoffs from when I made parts for Sikorky and the DOD. Good news is, the little Chinese mini lathes which have been so maligned, are capable of cutting the 5/8-18 threads needed for this project, just requires several passes, a very sharp bit, and lots of cutting oil. It did stall once cutting the threads, but did fine otherwise.

Pics will be posted shortly.

nhrifle

06-22-2014, 10:02 PM

Well, I'm dead in the water until lathe parts arrive. The B-C change gear shaft and collar seized while I was in the middle of a cut, stopping this project in its tracks. Luckily LMS has the parts in stock.

Anyhoo, here's progress so far. The round over die is complete and WORKS! I am thrilled about this, as it took quite a bit of fine tuning to get right.

108549

From left to right, are the ejection rod which attaches to the auto eject system I got with BTSniper's .224 swage die set, the die body I bored out to fit the insert, the two piece base punch, a 3/8-16 bolt center drilled 1/4" to guide the ejection rod, the insert retainer, and the insert. Lots of polishing and lapping to get that die insert to form and release the jacket blanks. I made the base punch in two pieces so that if I wreck a punch, I can just make a new shaft and not have to make the whole thing.

108550

And here are the results. On top is a jacket blank cut from 3/8" brass tubing, trimmed to .800" length and chamfered and deburred. Below are three jackets that have been rounded over, ready to be run through the draw die and then flattened in the core seat die. I have the sizing die and its corresponding punch made, and was making the retainer when catastrophic failure of my equipment occurred. Once parts are in hand, I will fix the problem and continue where I left off.

Until the next installment...

Cane_man

06-23-2014, 12:01 PM

nh, pics are not showing and the link doesn't work... can you take the url of the pic and put it between and it will show in your post?

nhrifle

06-24-2014, 10:22 AM

Not sure what happened. I've been able to post pics up to this point. I tried copy and paste, but that didn't work either. Maybe I need to upgrade my browser.

bannor

06-24-2014, 08:45 PM

so "all" I need is $1000 worth of tooling, several thousand $ worth of training, and I can make bullets 10x more slowly than if I cast them? Don't think that jibes with my reality. If it was rifle bullets, maybe, at such high velocity that paper patching would not suffice, and if I could sell the hell out of them at a profit of $50 an hour for all the work. otherwise, don't think so.

Cane_man

06-24-2014, 11:03 PM

diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks...

i get a pretty good buzz just making the dies, the swaged bullets are just icing on the cake!

nhrifle

06-25-2014, 01:00 AM

Bannor, I have been a closet machinist for years, and learned how to cut metal through trial and error, and asking questions of those who know how. I think this thread is for those who are already equipped to undertake such a project, or those who have access to the machinery. For myself, it is not about how fast I can make ammo, nor the dollar value of my time. I do this stuff for fun, and for me it is just to see if I can. No other reason than the pursuit of knowledge, and isn't that the basic premise of this forum? Learning and sharing knowledge?

nhrifle

06-25-2014, 01:08 AM

Well, let's see if this works. Same pics int he order they were originally posted.

108775108776

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108776 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775)

Either the attachments or the links should work, hopefully!

alrighty

06-25-2014, 05:03 AM

Well, let's see if this works. Same pics int he order they were originally posted.

108775108776

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775

(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108776

Either the attachments or the links should work, hopefully!

It doesn't show up for me but maybe it does for others?

R.Ph. 380

06-25-2014, 07:30 PM

I can't get them to work, but I haven't been able to view attachments since the last update.

Bill

Cane_man

06-25-2014, 08:12 PM

Well, let's see if this works. Same pics int he order they were originally posted.

108775108776

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775

(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108775)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=108776

Either the attachments or the links should work, hopefully!

i get it now you are uploading the pics to cb... i dont do it that way so i am not sure why it is not working... i upload photos to my photobucket account as copy the url and put the tags around the pic url

nhrifle

06-25-2014, 11:21 PM

Guess I need to finally break down and get a photobucket account!

nhrifle

06-26-2014, 12:07 AM

Think I may have finally gotten it!

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_0988_zps8718cff1.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_0988_zps8718cff1.jpg.html)

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_0989_zpsf1f5eca9.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_0989_zpsf1f5eca9.jpg.html)

alrighty

06-26-2014, 03:03 AM

Cane_man

06-26-2014, 10:06 AM

success!!! looking great, very good job, me impressed :drinks:

nhrifle

06-26-2014, 10:44 AM

Thanks! I'm going to remake the round over insert again after I get the whole system working. Notice the marks on the one in that pic? Those are tool marks -- the trials and tribulations of stuck jackets.

Cane_man

06-26-2014, 02:36 PM

so at this point you have completed jacket making?

and now you are moving on to core seating?

nhrifle

06-27-2014, 01:01 AM

I have completed what could be called a reasonable facsimile of a jacket. Just this morning before work I assembled the sizing components and ran some jackets through and flattened the bases in another die I have had for awhile. The jackets sized to .349", which is .001" under what I was hoping for, but pretty close. They still have the wrinkles from the round over die, and I believe this is because the sizing punch is smaller than it should be and not really ironing them out when they pass through the sizer. Tomorrow I will make a new punch and see what happens.

When I remake the round over die, I will try to use a smaller ejection pin as the bases are not closing up as much as I would like, but I have not doubt I could seat a core, point, and shoot them.

Cane_man

06-27-2014, 10:24 AM

ripples or wrinkles? from the pics above looks like rings rippling along the side of the jacket...

i know that I get those if I under anneal... how are you annealing the material before forming the jackets?

nhrifle

06-28-2014, 01:26 AM

I have not annealed the tubing as it is stated as being soft and ready to bend/form as needed. I may try annealing if future developments point in that direction, but I think my problem is that I haven't gotten the proper fit of the forming parts, so dimensional experimentation will be my next try. I think what's happening is the tubing is buckling under the force of forming and I just need to find the proper clearance between the punch and die to allow it to form properly.

Prospector Howard

06-28-2014, 10:32 AM

You didn't mention what type of tubing you're using. It looks like brass and it's propably on the thin side and like you say it's buckling under the pressure. Wouldn't thicker copper tubing work better? Nice work so far, this is what I come here for. Members making there own dies and tools too.

nhrifle

06-28-2014, 11:04 PM

This is the tube I am using http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s1153.htm

It's nice stuff. Yes, probably a little thin but I think it will make a nice pistol bullet. At any rate, it's fun working my way through this project. I am having to think about things (being a CNC operator doesn't allow me to do that -- load parts and push start for 8 hours) and every problem or setback is one more chance to learn something and refine my machining skills.

Part of my plan is to make the tooling to swage these bullets from either hard drawn or soft copper tubing, but for now I will make this work.

nhrifle

06-30-2014, 01:19 AM

Will post more pics soon. Core seating is done and I am happy with things so far. I am using a 6 cavity Lee 311-93-1R mould for cores, cast from soft lead. Measurement after seating is 354", which I think is just right for this step, and they weight a grain or so on either side of 122 gr. A new larger punch I made for sizing after rounding over made a huge difference and the jackets are now smooth.

I spent some time making the reamer for roughing out the bore of the point form die. I made it as a three flute, and it started cutting well at first, throwing nice chips. Then the cutting edge folded over and it is officially done. Tomorrow morning I will make a new one, probably going to make this one a D reamer. Maybe I will just regrind an appropriately sized drill bit to rough out the die. Tomorrow will tell.

Prospector Howard

06-30-2014, 10:40 AM

Looking forward to more pics as you make more progress. Let's see: 108 inches of brass tubing for $14, that's 13 cents per inch. I just checked copper tubing at home depot. 3/8", 20 feet (240 inches) for $16.37. Looks more economical, and probably thicker walled than 14 thousandths. Wonder how it would work?

nhrifle

07-01-2014, 11:50 AM

Ok, I have something I can shoot! I'll post pics of the whole setup in a couple days, just wanted to share this morning's success.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_0991_zpsc33ad2af.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_0991_zpsc33ad2af.jpg.html)

Still have some imperfections to work out to make myself happy with them, but hey -- I made them and the needed tooling! I get to be proud of me today![smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

What came out of the die weighs 121.9 grains and measures .3555" in diameter. I will have to shorten the jackets as it has a deep hollow point (around .100" deep) and is a bit long, but I am thrilled with my initial results.

R.Ph. 380

07-01-2014, 07:03 PM

Ya' know, those would be probably the cat's meow in a HP Carbine. HMMMMMMMMMM....................................... ...

nhrifle

07-02-2014, 12:54 AM

I had one of those rigs a few years ago, let it go in one of my many trades I later regretted. It shot to point of aim right out to 200 yards, probably would have done better but that's all the range I had available at the time.

That bullet I made is the cat's meow to me because I made it on my own tooling. I couldn't be more pleased, and now is the time to perfect what I have so far. I'm thinking of a new sizing procedure to eliminate the wrinkles, and maybe a new point form die with a "pointier" ogive.

plus1hdcp

07-02-2014, 11:56 AM

You can definitely be proud of your work and I call that a success. Congrats.

Cane_man

07-02-2014, 07:01 PM

looks fantastic... great feeling, isn't it?!

now go shoot em and get back to us...

Ok, I have something I can shoot! I'll post pics of the whole setup in a couple days, just wanted to share this morning's success.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_0991_zpsc33ad2af.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_0991_zpsc33ad2af.jpg.html)

Still have some imperfections to work out to make myself happy with them, but hey -- I made them and the needed tooling! I get to be proud of me today![smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

What came out of the die weighs 121.9 grains and measures .3555" in diameter. I will have to shorten the jackets as it has a deep hollow point (around .100" deep) and is a bit long, but I am thrilled with my initial results.

nhrifle

07-02-2014, 08:05 PM

I had limited time this morning, but I made up a small batch for some quick testing. I loaded 4 over 4.7 grains of Bullseye and ran them through my FNX-9. They all exited the barrel, fed and functioned fine, and the slide locked back on the last round. The bullets are not completely closed on the base, so I had concerns about shooting the core out of the jacket, but all was well.

Now that I have proof of concept it is time to correct the things I am not happy with. A new round over die with a smaller ejection pin hole, reshaping the ogive in the point form die, and a few new punches are first on the list.

plus1hdcp

07-02-2014, 09:53 PM

How about a better pic of the base and hollow point. BTW, very jealous and know I need to get my own lathe. A job well done.

nhrifle

07-02-2014, 10:10 PM

You got it. In the morning I will make a dozen so I can take some proper pics of them, and I'll stuff one in a case, and take some pics of the parts I have made so far. Keep in mind, this is still work in progress and things will be modified and updated.

nhrifle

07-04-2014, 10:54 PM

A couple pictures to show my current progress. The bullets are looking much better now and forming nicely. Even though the tubing was advertised as being soft, it turns out annealing is the key. The bullets pictured below were made today and I apologize but I did not run them through the tumbler for polishing, so they are a little discolored from annealing and swaging.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/63a2a87c-097b-47c1-806e-c744d4f1e4ef_zps689c055a.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/63a2a87c-097b-47c1-806e-c744d4f1e4ef_zps689c055a.jpg.html)

From left to right, a loaded dummy round, bases (with much smaller open spot than I initially got!), sides, and that big deep hollow point I posted about earlier.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/e0fde841-75f6-4999-bbbd-262fc76afc96_zpsa7a48df9.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/e0fde841-75f6-4999-bbbd-262fc76afc96_zpsa7a48df9.jpg.html)

And here are a couple of problems I still need to deal with and I'm open to suggestions for corrective action. Left is a fold in the jacket, which is occurring during jacket sizing after the round over die. Right is the open spot on the base that is off center, which I think is caused by the jacket entering the sizing die at an angle rather than straight up and down.

All in all I am pleased with how these are turning out. Since I shoot both jacketed and cast through my 9mm pistols, I don't need to worry about the supply being in flux. If I want to shoot lead I will cast them. If I want to shoot jacketed, I will make them. I will run some ballistics tests in clay and water as time permits to see how these perform, but with that big, deep cavern of a hollow point, I don't think these would work very well as a defensive bullet, especially with clothing barriers.

Cane_man

07-05-2014, 10:16 AM

looking great!

yes indeed, proper annealing is key for swaging, with drawing as well... i found that i need to get the material between cherry red and orange, get to bright orange and then i have over annealed and burned all the zinc out of the brass, this gets the jackets soft enough for the core seating and point forming...

since you are performing several draws with the material, you may want to consider annealing more than one time... when i draw down 9mm cases to 7mm i anneal after every two draw downs, then one final anneal for swaging the bullet, that is a total of 4 anneals but this is what if found i have to do

i was having problems with the jackets getting off center as well while drawing, and i ended up having to make a bushing for the top of the die to get the case centered as it was being pushed through the top of the die, like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/0-0-0-dum001_zps9e8bb671.jpg

that ogive looks very nice, you did this with a d-reamer?

what are you using for a stop punch for point forming? this winter i am going to make a reamer and 1S ogive pointing die for my 10mm dies listed in this thread, and i am not quite sure how to work out the punch for these hollow point auto pistol bullets...

nhrifle

07-05-2014, 10:52 PM

I made a modified D reamer to cut the point die. I cut the reamer blank to shape, then milled the cutting section exactly in half, then flipped it 90 degrees and milled about .075" (a guess, I didn't measure it) off that side, so I wound up with basically a 2 flute reamer. Then I made relief cuts around the second milled side and carefully stoned it so only the cutting edges would contact the work. I've had problems with D reamers cutting oversize, even though I made them to the size I wanted, so I figured this might work and it did. I'm planning on recutting the point die with a new ogive, so if you'd like I can send you the reamer so you can see how I made it.

I'm not using a stop punch for the pointing die, I just adjust the die to the point just before the meplat starts to "stovepipe" and then just start forming.

The HP punch for your bullets should be easy as you don't have to worry about the bullet forming around the ejection punch like when making rifle bullets. Just let it free float and give it a way to stop at a predetermined depth into the bullet. CH4D made their punch to look like a rod with a shaft collar somewhere in the middle. This collar would abut the adjusting sleeve on the top of the die and the core would form around it.

Good idea about keeping the jackets straight when entering the sizer. I am thinking of something similar to that, also that if I cut the leading edge of the sizing insert to a taper rather than a radius it may help as well.

alrighty

07-06-2014, 02:22 AM

Very nice indeed!

Stephen Cohen

07-06-2014, 05:51 AM

Looks like a fracture in the bottom edge of that projectile. I love to see ordinary guys making stuff like this, and doing a pretty good job of it as well. By the way that is a nice looking bullet and regardless of how it shoots, you have the pride in saying you made it.

nhrifle

07-12-2014, 01:40 AM

Sorry for the delay. It may be a fracture in the jacket but I don't see any signs of that. What I am seeing is that the brass is buckling in the round over die where the cavity transitions from straight to the "cone" at the end of the stroke. I am going to make a new form cutter with a much gentler transition in that area and cut a new die and see what happens.

I have been working on these diligently all week and I am making progress, particularly the new point form die I cut yesterday morning. It has a less round ogive and the profile is very close to the bullet I want to make, but the hollow point is much too wide, so I will make a new reamer either tomorrow or Sunday and cut a new die.

One little trick I learned that I would like to pass on is the use of moly paste to treat the bores of swaging dies. Ejection of formed jackets or bullets has become much easier after applying a thin film of the paste with a Qtip. It is the same stuff used during the tuning of spring piston airguns.

I will post pics of the progress I am making in the next couple of days.

Cane_man

07-12-2014, 11:23 PM

yes, moly bore paste works!!!

nhrifle

07-13-2014, 12:49 AM

Just got done with a recut of the round over die a few minutes ago and pointed them in the redesigned point die (which will be revised again tomorrow). I changed the angle and the lead-in of that angle in the round over die to be a much more gentle transition, and it eliminated the major buckling I was getting around the edge of the base. The form tool I am using to cut that is simply a 3/8" drill bit which I reground the cutting edge to give me the cavity shape I want. I appear to have a keeper, though it would seem I have also enlarged the bore of the rounding die in the process, causing wrinkles in the sides of the bullet. I will make a new one tomorrow with the improved shape.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/5bf01edb-8dcc-4603-84ec-0fa62d501c2e_zps2bda8308.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/5bf01edb-8dcc-4603-84ec-0fa62d501c2e_zps2bda8308.jpg.html)

I am happy with how these came out, but there is still work to be done. The cosmetic flaws need to be corrected and the hollow point I want a bit smaller, but the overall shape is just about what I want. Tonight I also made a new reamer for the point form die and I will harden and hone it tomorrow morning before I start machining new parts.

Cane_man

07-13-2014, 09:49 AM

nice smooth ogive profile!

get some 6mm round ceramic media, a little lemishine and dawn, place them in a small container in your vibratory tumbler with a splash of water (just enough get get the media wetted), let it vibrate for an hour, and those bullets will clean up nice...

nhrifle

07-13-2014, 09:28 PM

I have finished my development of these dies. I am happy with the bullet produced, now I just have to remake a few punches and harden them, then I will be done.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/45580a18-9c51-4f52-9e3c-064b6cbafb2a_zpsc318944d.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/45580a18-9c51-4f52-9e3c-064b6cbafb2a_zpsc318944d.jpg.html)

A few bullets and dummy rounds.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_1000_zps2bce6bef.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_1000_zps2bce6bef.jpg.html)

The reamer I made to cut the point form die.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/IMG_1002_zps4e4a3aad.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/IMG_1002_zps4e4a3aad.jpg.html)

And a side view of the reamer.

Sorry the reamer pics are blurry, couldn't get my camera to focus properly.

I like the shape of the new bullets and that they formed nice and smooth -- gone are the folds, buckles, and wrinkles of the old jackets. Loaded to 1.150" OAL the dummies feed and extract from my pistol like butter. I am glad I didn't lap the point form die any more as they measure .3550" at the bearing surface area. Weight is 120 grains +/- a couple tenths. Hope to shoot a few soon!

squished

07-23-2014, 10:17 AM

Nice work!

jimbull34

07-23-2014, 09:16 PM

Caneman, Use peanut oil to quench with, it won't flash like veggie oil or motor oil, actually no petroleum oil should be used to quench. There are oils that are made specifically for this operation, but they are all veg based oils or synthetic.

plus1hdcp

07-23-2014, 10:16 PM

Well done

Stephen Cohen

07-23-2014, 10:41 PM

Well I'm 60 next month, if I study real hard to learn how to use a lathe, could I be that good by 70. Well done Sir, one must appreciate good workmanship.

nhrifle

07-23-2014, 11:40 PM

Ten years would give you some practice! My best advice is to make best friends with someone who has been machining for years. The little tips and tricks passed to you will save sooooooo much time.

Been a bit busy since my last post. I am almost done with this project and I am very happy with the results thus far. I will post pics of the dies and related tooling this weekend, along with an example of what each die does. I believe this process could be used to make any caliber bullet, providing the appropriate sizing/draw dies are made.

Stay tuned.....

nhrifle

07-28-2014, 01:01 AM

Ok, time for a big shout out to Cane Man. His idea and the development he put into it gave me the inspiration for this, so thank you, thank you, thank you.

Not sure if this will all fit into one post, but here goes...

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/9mm%20swaging/9mmroundover_zps25c27b93.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/9mm%20swaging/9mmroundover_zps25c27b93.jpg.html)

This is the first die in the sequence, the round over die. It starts the process of flattening the jacket base and is the only step that requires any real force to accomplish. Left to right, the die body, the insert nut (holds the insert into the body), the insert, the ejector rod, the base punch, and a couple of jackets from this step.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/9mm%20swaging/9mmsizer_zps833ae94c.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/9mm%20swaging/9mmsizer_zps833ae94c.jpg.html)

This is step two, sizing. Show are the die body, the insert nut, the insert, the base punch, and a couple jackets sized in this die. They are reduced to .351" from their original .375", which lengthens them a bit and also smooths the sides of the jackets.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/9mm%20swaging/9mmcoreseat_zps2a494a78.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/9mm%20swaging/9mmcoreseat_zps2a494a78.jpg.html)

Nope, didn't make this die. I bought this die years ago, I think it is from Hawke. It's for making 1/2 jacket 9mm bullets. It has mostly sat unused as I wasn't happy with what I was getting out of it, but it is now repurposed as my base flattening/core seating die. The base is flattened and the core seated all in one step, and since this is a 9mm swaging die the jackets are expanded to .355", too big for point forming so they are run through the sizer one more time. Shown are the die, the base punch, the Lee boolit I'm using for cores, a pair of seated cores fresh from the die and a second pair after being resized.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/lazarus5042/9mm%20swaging/9mmpointform_zps26fe1420.jpg (http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/lazarus5042/media/9mm%20swaging/9mmpointform_zps26fe1420.jpg.html)

Finally the die that brings it all together, the point form, which took the most effort and redesign to get to work properly, not to mention over an hour of lapping to get the final size as well as a nicely polished interior. Shown are the die body, the insert nut, the insert, the base punch, the ejector rod, and a pair of finished bullets ready to throw in the tumbler (which I didn't do yet). I am the most pleased with this die as it forms the bullets easily, and they practically fall into my hand with little more than a nudge of the ejector rod.

And there you have it. There may be an easier or better way to accomplish what I have, but this is my take on home swaging 9mm bullets from tubing. Next planned development is a new set of punches to allow the same results using copper tubing I can procure locally so I won't have to order online.

Cane_man

07-28-2014, 09:32 AM

OUTSTANDING!!!!

those final bullets look great and should shoot really well... give us a range report when you get a chance, again, that is some outstanding work! :guntootsmiley: