Original Sharps paper patch cartridge loads, which components?

[ketland]

When Sharps originally made their factory loadings for paper patch cartridge, what were the components over the powder?

[Red River Rick]

...................a patched bullet.

RRR

[ketland]

Anything betwixt the Paper patch bullet and the powder?

[Don McDowell]

A lube disc in loads intended for hunting, nothing for target rounds.

[ketland]

Thank you very much for that tidbit of information Don, That is exactly what I was looking for.

[Don McDowell]

They also used a thin card wad between the powder and the lube disc, and it's a good idea to put one between the disc and the bullet , to keep the lube from contaminating your patch.

[powderburnerr]

it was the powder charge , a card wad , a grease cookie , a card wad and a bullet , the powder was settled with a follower with a shoulder on it , to make all charges the same height the other components were added and another follower was used to set the wad stack to the same depth then the bullet was hand seated in the case. It makes a very consistant load because everything is in the same place inside of the case.

[Don McDowell]

More specifically the lubricating disc, was to be 1 part pure beeswax and 2 parts spermwhale oil by weight, and was to occupy 3 /16's in in the shell.

[ketland]

Today I am loading up my first batch of PP cartridges. I have been practicing wrapping bullets, and am using the BACO .444 with the onion skin paper they sell. So far I am finding it relatively easy to wrap, and seat the bullets, and am making sure they fit into the bore correctly. I also bought some .441 bullets, however they would require three wraps of paper to fit snug (or a thicker paper). I am a long time muzzleloader shooter, and understand the nature of the fouling beast, an intend to wet/dry patch between rounds. I had wondered how hunters could manage to shoot multiple times without wiping between shots, and has assumed that sharps must have used lube and a slender card to keep deal with the fouling. I did a search but found nothing specifically dealing with the issue, and from your responses, am glad I asked the question.

[RMulhern]

it was the powder charge , a card wad , a grease cookie , a card wad and a bullet , the powder was settled with a follower with a shoulder on it , to make all charges the same height the other components were added and another follower was used to set the wad stack to the same depth then the bullet was hand seated in the case. It makes a very consistant load because everything is in the same place inside of the case.

And this my friends is the SECRET to paper patch loads!! And I also believe that consistent PLACEMENT of the patch in relation to the bullet ogive is important!!

[ketland]

I will be testing later today, and will post my results. A sincere thank you for the help. -K

[ketland]

Well I made it out to the range yesterday for some testing. Range was pretty busy with it being the Holiday, which made the 100 yd line a no go, so I started on the 200 yd line. Test rifle is a Uberti 1885 hi-wall in 45-70 with a 22 twist, and it wears the open sights which came on it. My target is a 24" round plate with a 2" black bull painted on center. First rounds of the day were BACO .444's at 500 grains, wrapped with the paper they sell which I believe is a 9# onion skin.... (whatever, its the paper they have on the website), two wraps which gave me a .450-.451 finished OD, and slid into the lands with just a touch of resistance. I used 2f Goex @ 70gr topped with a card and compressed in my loading press using the .45 adjustable compression tool to a depth which allowed me to seat the bullet by hand at .30.
The first shot was low, but registered as close to center, so I raised the rear sight up to its highest level on the stepped elevator and put the second shot onto the plate using a six o'clock hold. For the third shot I held center plate which put the bullet about as high as the last shot had been low, which told me that their would be no proper adjustment to get this bullet into center, so I chose to use the mid plate hold and go for group. Between shots I was using a wet patch followed by two dry patches, and this was the standard used throughout the day. I put Five more of the .444's out for group, and although they all were on the plate, the grouping was not what I had hoped for, as they were spread out into about a foot and a half. I went out and painted the plate back to clean, and ran another string of five, same result, all on the plate, trending better than the last string, but nowhere close to what I would call acceptable.
Back out to the plate for a repaint, and back to the line, I switched over to the smaller lighter bullet, the BACO .442 at 450 grains , which took 3 wraps to get up to .451 and a snug fit into the bore. the load was 70 grains of Goex 2F compressed with a card to .30 and the bullet hand seated. With the same sight setting as I had used for the .444, the .442 flew high, so I adjusted the sights down and threw one into the dirt. One more sight adjustment and the third shot was the charm, from that point on, things were working. I put together a string of five shots which held about 3 MOA, and knew that I had something to work with.
I went out and gave the plate a repaint, and put another couple of groups out, and as long as I did my job, things went along pretty well. The wind strung me out side to side a bit, but the elevation was consistent, and I have to say I was pretty pleased with the result. After I ran out of the .442's, I went back to the 500 grain .444's, but they just would not group for me, perhaps that 22 twist is two slow for them?
In any case, I would like to thank you guys for the help, I read all the stickies and threads, and utilized the advice I was given here which without doubt "made it work", and man was it fun. Think I'll stick with this stuff for a while.
I took some pictures, but I still am having trouble getting them from photobucket to here, and don't know what I'm doing wrong?

[Lead pot]

ketland,

I would suggest you use a ladder load for development for each bullet you want to use. A ladder test load is starting from zero compression to a full case full of powder 1, 2, or 3F what ever you want to use. I use a 3 shot group but a two shot will also work but I like to have some sort of average so I use 3 shots from zero compression to full case in 2 grain intervals. This is not many loads 18 or 21 rounds.
After all rounds are fired pick the two tightest groups and load 5 of each and see it the groups repeat. When you have the final group then you can work with the primers or raise or lower the powder one grain and tighten them more if you feel need too

[Don McDowell]

Those .444 bullets will benefit from a thinner paper.
Use just 2wraps on the .442's and you'll likely see improvement.
Also try a .060 fiber wad between the powder and the bullet.

[ketland]

Lead pot, Thank you for the information regarding load testing, I am an experienced hand loader for smokeless, but that was going to be one of my questions i.e. how to tweak a load of black powder for testing and I think you just gave me some great help with that.
Regarding the .444 bullet, I was using two wraps of the .020 paper, and that gave a fit into the bore that I would characterize as snug, but would go into the bore without damage, although to get the bullet out of the bore, I had to push it from the muzzle.
The .442 bullet was getting three wraps. Should I try a thicker paper with that and go with two wraps?
At this point I'm glad to be in the game, interesting isn't it how you have to do/try something to even get to the right questions.

[ketland]

71750


Here is my tray of paper patch loads, the first four rows from the left are the .442 loads.

[country gent]

I am using the .442 Baco 500 grns andHelix brand 25% cotton rag vellum Paper ( purchased at Office Max) and end up around .451-.452 dried diameter. The .442 bullet and 2 wraps of the 9# onion paper .002 thickness ( equals roughly .008 ) would make a .450 dia bullet. I had gotten some Pacon brand Tracing paper at wall marts that measured .0018 thk. I have a package of the Baco 9# onion paper. and it wraps and works very well for me. Helix has a 100% cotton rag vellum that is .0029 thk . Dailer Rowney 40lb Tracing paper is .0023 thousandths thk. When I go "paper shopping" I put my 0-1" mikes in my shirt pocket most have open pads or samples out and you can measure quickly to see if its in the range you need. For my sharps anything much over .451 needs an assist to chamber.

[ketland]

Thank you Country Gent, I'm going to look for slightly thicker paper for the .442 so two wraps will give me .451.
By the way, I realize that I have no knowledge of what "good" groups should look like from this type of shooting.
Can anybody fill me in or link me to a thread to help educate me about the subject? I am well aware of what is considered competitive in modern hi power and F-class, but this is a whole other ball of wax, or should I say stack of paper?

[Don McDowell]

2moa or less.

[Lead pot]

Consistency is very important when loading a blk powder round. I cant stress this hard enough.

Case prep/
consistent length. I run my cases through the Wilson case trimmer unsized after cleaning the cases after every shot fired and that trimmer only gets used for one rifle the case is shot in. I make sure the case mouth is chamfered.
And I turn the match case necks to a consistent neck diameter, because this regulates the neck tension even if you seat your bullet loose in a unsized case because that bullet will bump up at the same time it starts it's was out of the case. This is more important for the GG bullet because more of the shank is still in the case.

Case volume/
The cases I use for matches are all separated by what the inside volume is. Not by weight. I anneal the case first and after shooting that case at least twice with out resizing to have it consistent with the case walls fully blown out I use a fine ball powder like H-380 that is pretty consistent in size and it settles good in the case and when I screed off the over flow at the case mouth I weigh that load and mark the case with a sharpie. (just make sure you have a spent primer in the pocket so the powder don't leak out :D) The reason for this is to have a consistent powder stack to keep the compression the same amount round for round. It's the compression that affects the powder burn for consistent ES in the low single digits.

Patch placement on the bullet/
Rick mentioned this above. If you have the patch at different heights on the bullet you will get different resistances from the friction as the bullet expands in the throat this changes the chamber pressure enough to give variances in velocity. This you will not see on the target at close range like 100 or 200 yards but it sure shows up past 600 yards.
I use a index mark that I put on the mould side wall using a spring loaded center punch that I adjust to a lesser pressure so the dimple does not go to deep.
I use a cast bullet and insert it in the mould base first and with a slight push I push it in till ti makes contact to the point where the ogive starts and I mark this point using the center punch.
There is enough shrinkage in that cold bullet to take it slightly up into the radius to make the patch far enough over the shank into the ogive to allow for the nose setback.
Or I will lay the bullet on a flat hard surface and push a sheet of printer paper under the ogive till it stops and measure it from the base up to the paper and this will be my index mark on the mould cavity wall.

Neck tension/
Some of my rifles have a tight chamber tight enough that I cant use a GG bullet and I dont have to do anything with the brass but clean it and and trim it.
The standard chambers I have to size down because I use bore diameter or slightly over bore diameter PP bullets.
What I do with those cases is use the taper crimp die in place of the full length sizing die. I run the case just far enough in the die to where the wad stack is above the powder and then I use a neck expander that I made to the amount of neck tension I want.
Yes it works the brass a little more but you keep that brass soft that extra work hardening is no issue, but keeping the necks soft will stretch the brass some. That is why I run them through the trimmer after every shot.

I dont want to write a book so I will leave it here. This is just my way of doing things but I sure see the results on the paper doing it this way.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1376_zps87086e6a.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1376_zps87086e6a.jpg.html)

[ketland]

Thank you Lead Pot! Great post. You have given me some good tools to work with, and work with them I will.

[ketland]

Got out yesterday for some more testing, and had mixed results. The photo shows a 100 yard group consisting of 5 record shots, and two sighters. After putting the two sighters on, I adjusted up and put the shot directly above them mid ball then went for four more for a five shot group. The ball measured 2-1/4". The bullet was the BACO .444 at 500gr, with 70gr of Goex, and a 1/16 wad compressed to allow the bullet to seat at .030 depth. Not quite 2moa, I have my work cut out for me. 72100

I also tried my .442 BACO bullets at 450gr with a new paper, Borden and Riley parchment tracing #51 which measured at slightly under .003 on my caliper, and had very poor results. I think this paper was disintegrating before getting out of the barrel as the bullet were not stabilizing, and I actually got some leading in the bore which had to be wire brushed out. I would strongly suggest staying away from this paper.
For the time being, I am going to go back to the onion skin paper on the .442's and see what I get. The onion skin / .442 was giving me better accuracy than the .444's but it took three wraps to get it up to bore size. I will keep you posted on my results, hopefully I will get out and test more later today.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Consider the thickness of your paper at 2 wraps and the depth of your rifling. 3 Wraps is too much and will not get good sliced paper. If you want Match grade accuracy thin paper a bullet of proper Diameter and proper fouling control methods will get you there. .444 or .446 diam bullet and Seth Cole Tracing paper works very well for target work.

Now Hunting is a different cat, I use a .441 to .442 diam bullet thicker paper patched up to about .447 and a good grease cookie under that bullet you can load and shoot in very cold too, very warm, weather and at 167 yrds hold a base of your hand size group from kneeling cross sticks in 10 inches of snow.

My loads are just a puff of confetti at the muzzle no leading proper patch height is also very important and a good wad stack also help protect the bullet base.

The Lunger
KW

[ketland]

Thank you Kenny, I was able to make it out yesterday, and had better results. This time using the BACO .442 (450gr) with two wraps of the 9# onion skin paper which BACO sells. I used 70gr GOEX 2f with a 1/16th vegi fiber wad over the powder and compressed so the bullet would seat at .3 depth in the case.
72371

I tried a few different seat depths, and powder loads, but think the key difference is in the consistency of my wiping routine, two wet patches followed by two dry, and just overall paying more attention to the details of loading. Oops, sorry the pic is upside down.