Lowdown on cast boolit hardness.

[vmathias]

OK here goes, I know you need a certain hardness for certain velocities (lower pistol velocities=softer lead) rifle above 1500fps = harder lead. What is the softest I can go for velocities from 1500- 1900 fps? What works good for standard rifle hunting velocities?

[detox]

That would probably depend on the caliber and what you are hunting. A 45/70 could use 20/1 lead tin (8 bhn) while a 30/30 may need Lyman #2 (15 bhn)

[detox]

Strait wheel weights can eather be used soft or water quenched hardened.

[btroj]

It depends.

A 45-70 will allow softer than a 22. A gas check allows softer than plain base. Powder used matter, slow burn rate allows softer alloy.

Yeah, I just depends. Experiment and see how soft your rifle and load will allow.

[Marlin Junky]

What is the softest I can go for velocities from 1500- 1900 fps? What works good for standard rifle hunting velocities?

You must provide caliber, rate of twist, number of grooves and bore/groove dimensions in order to get a reliable answer to that question. Also, you should be able to fill the chamber's throat (with the boolit) to get optimum results.

MJ

[MtGun44]

Also, powder burn rate. IME, for moderate loads like under 1800 fps or so in rifles, you
can use air cooled wwts with the 2400 or other fast rifle/slow pistol powders with GC boolits.

For pistols, .357 and .44 mags do just fine with PB boolits, and as soft as 8 BHN has worked
fine for me with excellent accy and zero leading during testing. Normally, I use air cooled
wwts for everything, but sometimes I have range scrap alloy that is much softer.

Hardness is overrated as a variable. At best it is a secondary factor, and often a teriary or
lower item. Good design, good lube and GOOD FIT are usually much more important.

Bill

[dverna]

Bullet type may factor in too. A long unsupported nose on a "soft" bullet may slump more and a harder alloy could help.

I do not hunt so I err on the "harder is better" side for rifle bullets. I want an accurate load that will work for many shots punching paper.

But for a hunting bullet you will want to go as soft as possible. A bullet/load that leads after 20 shots is, in my mind, a better choice if it expands as desired and has acceptable accuracy. After all, how many shots will you take in the field? With most shots less than 100 yards even a 4 MOA load is going to be adequate.

Sure, a load that leads a bit and gives 4 MOA is not going to excite anyone here, but the deer/bear will be just as dead and the softer bullet will perform better on game.

For example. I am converting to a .40 for self defense and will use cast bullets. I will use "hard" plain base bullets for practice but use a much softer alloy and PB GC's for carry ammo. I want a load that will allow me to shoot a few hundred rounds without leading for practice sessions but I hope to never need the ammo I load for "social work". But if I do, I want something that expands well and reliably - and I know (hope?) two magazines worth will be all I need. By using the same mold to produce both, I will be able to have the same POI as well as confirm how well the bullet/load functions.

[vmathias]

You must provide caliber, rate of twist, number of grooves and bore/groove dimensions in order to get a reliable answer to that question. Also, you should be able to fill the chamber's throat (with the boolit) to get optimum results.

MJ

I wasnt sure if there was a standard for all calibers in that range, I have read so many different views on Brinell hardness. I do know its not advisable to shoot pure lead bullets in any rifle but have also heard some people go as low as a 9 through standard velocities (1500-1900 fps) in rifles. Casting some 45-70 bullets yesterday we tried water quenching but they got very brittle. You could actually notice the cracks and voids in the bullets. Lead used was standard wheel weights.

[MBTcustom]

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.

[44man]

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.
Close to what I did with a 50-50 HP from my 45-70 revolver, not as nasty but still lost a lot of shoulder. I OVEN HARDENED them too. I had 20 BHN. They were around 1600 fps.

[vmathias]

I have run very soft booltis (8-9 BHN) up to 2200fps and still had good groups with no leading.
However, one of the really great virtues of cast lead is it's astounding killing ability without explosive expansion.
If you design a cast lead boolit with a flat nose, to expand on impact, and drive it fast also, the results can be.....shall we say over the top?
Observe the deer I shot last year:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world
This year, I'm going to make it easy on myself on so many levels by water dropping the same alloy.
I see other fellers shooting cast lead boolits slow as molasses and hard as marbles, and their deer drop like a sack of wet grain. There is no reason to get too wrapped around the axle with hardness. The WFN does enough damage without destroying half your deer in the process.
Anyway, for what it's worth.

I cast some 45-70 then water quenched them (many didnt turn out too good but think I figured out the problem). Instead of dropping them directly into the water once set up we actually waited approx 1 minute then placed them into the bucket. These turned out very good and hardened up to the point that you cannot dent them with your finger nail. I wanted to cast the 45-70 harder than the 243's as you really dont need much expansion with that size bullet. trying to get the 243's a tad softer so they will perform well at 1700fps on coyotes. In my experiences from what I have seen coyotes are a super tough animal. Maybe even tougher that deer. I will need a semi soft 243 boolit to keep the energy retained in the coyote, but on the flip side do not want to tear the **** out of the hides.

[LouisianaPatriot]

I'm a rookie caster and with all the above factors and variables my head is starting to spin. Maybe I'm over thinking things. I just got a new Lyman die 429650 I believe it is, and have cast maybe 40 boolits with it. I too, dropped them into a 5 gallon bucket of water right out of the mold. I'm using 100% WW and I can't scratch them with my finger nail. My rounds will be used primarily for hunting South Louisiana Whitetail at distances of about 100-125 yards tops. I don't have a way to check the hardness. I'm thinking this should be decent for what I want to do with it.

[outdoorfan]

Don't sweat it. Everyone has to start somewhere. Start with boolit fit in your guns chamber/barrel, then work your way towards hardness. Try those ww's hard and try them soft (air cooled). You can soften them back down in the oven. It's easy to do. See where your accuracy is. Maybe explode some milk jugs to see how the boolit reacts at various speeds/hardness levels. Not too complicated. You have to experiment a bit.

Edit: One thing to be aware of is a hard boolit is less likely to be sized down by your brass and reloading dies (I've had issues with this) as a softer one will. No big deal. You just have to be aware of it and make adjustments.



I'm a rookie caster and with all the above factors and variables my head is starting to spin. Maybe I'm over thinking things. I just got a new Lyman die 429650 I believe it is, and have cast maybe 40 boolits with it. I too, dropped them into a 5 gallon bucket of water right out of the mold. I'm using 100% WW and I can't scratch them with my finger nail. My rounds will be used primarily for hunting South Louisiana Whitetail at distances of about 100-125 yards tops. I don't have a way to check the hardness. I'm thinking this should be decent for what I want to do with it.

[Marlin Junky]

Is this a rifle or handgun thread? :veryconfu

Conditions will dictate what you can get away with... so to speak. If you want to get off just a few shots to check down range boolit placement, clean, then perhaps "season" your barrel with one or two shots in preparation for the hunt and only shoot a few shots at your quarry, you can get away with very soft boolits. On the other hand, if you're shooting 5-shot groups over the course of an hour or so, you're shooting under very different conditions which shall require a tougher alloy. If you are green at this, you are better off shooting deer with a 45-70 (65-70% meplat) at close range which means velocity isn't a big factor and anything over about 1500-1600 fps is simply wasted. I'm guessing you'll be hunting in PA, correct? What brand of rifle[?] are you using? If you're using a Marlin, I would strongly suggest a gas check designed boolit mold that drops a .461+" boolit.

I would grab this one:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=395

And some Alliant Reloder 7, (don't ask me why they left the "a" out of Reloder) start at 32 grains and work up to maybe 37 grains.

The alloy I would chose would be slightly softer than Lyman #2 but not soft enough to easily distort in handling... about BHN 12-13 is about right. The components you use to create your alloy may vary; however, this hardness range in my area meant (yes, past tense, Pb WW's are now extinct where I collected my supply) a mixture of stick-on lead and clip-on lead WW's which ages in 2 weeks to just about bhn 13. I'm sorry I can't remember the exact proportions of stick-on to clip-on but IIRC it was close to 50/50.

Also, the final boolit hardness after aging will vary with casting conditions. Currently, it's kind of conventional wisdom that long ago Lyman perpetuated a myth about frosted boolits being rejects. These days, many, many shooters are shooting their frosted boolits at targets with fine results; however, I'm going to venture to guess these shooters don't realize how hard their boolits are if they've been allowed to age a month or so.

That NOE mold I linked to above should cast fine if pre-heated and fed 650F (+/-) metal that age hardens to BHN 12-13 and contains some tin.

MJ

[Griz44mag]

Lee Second Edition answers that question better than anyplace or any expert I have ever heard or talked to.
Velocity has less to do with the issue than pressure does.
Bore fit is more important than either, but the thread asks about hardness.
It's possible to get higher velocity with slower powders by using longer barrels or tighter crimps. It's also just as easy to get higher pressure resulting in slower velocity.
The pressure exerted on the bullet is what causes leading, too much pressure on soft lead or not enough pressure on hard lead.
Lee Second Edition, page 134 has a table of pressures vs lead hardness. I have used this for years, and have no issues with leading or performance of cast boolits.
The sections of the book prior to and after the table do a very good job of explaining why. (If you can get by Richard's propensity to beat his own drum too much)

[Marlin Junky]

The pressure exerted on the bullet is what causes leading, too much pressure on soft lead or not enough pressure on hard lead.

OK, but that's counter intuitive... you need to explain that to a neophyte.

The optimal situation controls galling (leading) to a manageable, consistent level which is the function of boolit lube and one of the functions of the gascheck. Too much pressure on a soft boolit and the boolit's shank is forced into the barrel walls by excessive obturation (force vectors normal [perpendicular] to the boolit's direction of travel) and the lube film is overwhelmed. Not enough pressure on a harder boolit creates gas leakage during engraving (shear forces as the boolit accelerates) and the lube film is broken down ahead of the boolit. This is a very simple explanation that does not take into account powder burning pressure curves nor does it consider different alloy compositions and their malleability. Nor does it take into account barrel internal geometry which opposes the shear forces created from rotation and acceleration. Softer alloys that are more elastic respond more favorably to internal barrel conditions than those that are harder, yet brittle. Think of the optimum boolit alloy as putty which retains it's original shape upon exiting the muzzle. Nevertheless, when developing your 400+ grain 45-70 load, stick with a malleable alloy no harder than about BHN 14, well formed shinny boolits and just enough Re7 for good accuracy. Others may say go with a slower powder such as 3031 or 4895 when using 400+ grain boolits and I can't argue with that; however, Re7 will generate all the speed/power you'll need in PA and it burns clean and consistent at lower pressures. If you decide to go with a lighter boolit, Alliant 2400 or even Unique may work extremely well. Do you have a good supply of alloy?... ya gotta start somewhere.

MJ

[Griz44mag]

Agreed MJ, there are many things that can have some effect on the issue of leading. Beyond proper size and proper hardness, those factors are way down on the list of things I spend a lot of time worrying about. Developing a load for the 45-70 is going to be a really fun project, one I am looking forward to. I plan using a 405gr mold, (Lyman 457193)
and Varget Powder. The lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (page 217) lists this as a good combination (preferred actually) for the load I am targeting. I'll start low at 49.5gr as recommended with 12BHN and see how it does. If it leads, I'll move the hardness up a touch and see if that stops it. I will continue up the scale until maximum is reached. Lead hardness will be adjusted as pressures increase, keeping a close eye on everything. I am fortunate to have collected lead over the past 40 years from just about everything. I have dead soft 100% lead all the way up to 27BHN from some printers stock. I recently purchased a Cabine Tree tester, so every alloy can be verified as the process goes along. A friend who will be hunting this winter with me wants to go black powder with his 45-70, so I can see some really fun days on the bench ahead of us.

[milkman]

vmathias
If you have any pure lead give that a try in 45-70. My hunting load is a pure lead Lee 500g gas check over enough Herco to give about 1000fps, sighted in at 100 yd, which is about my longest shot. Very good accuracy and no one can argue the merits of pure lead at 45-70 speeds, expansion and penetration galore. That boolit won't work in a lever, but is great in a single shot.
Milkman

[44man]

MJ and others have good answers but in the end the question is; do they shoot good, do they lead the bore, do they slump, are you stopping skid at the boolit base?
Bore condition and recovered boolits along with accuracy seems to be the best way to judge alloy.
The good thing is, we can change things with lead.
I refuse to read all the stuff about alloys and pressures. The gun will tell you. You will tell you, not some book. It just SOUNDS hard to do.
All of the books and figures seem to be based on no leading, never how good anything shoots for you. Each caliber and type of gun is different.

[45 2.1]

By this time you've read most of the different ways each person does it. It's up to you to separate the wheat and chaff (provided you get any wheat out of it). I will tell you it depends on what you want out of an alloy that decides which you use and how.

[44MAG#1]

Unless one wants a bullet for expansion I cast and water quench everything. Simple no fuss no muss and hard bullets are more forgiving. I go for simple, easy and what will work most of the time.
I have cast since '80 and have never had bad leading just once and that was with TriTest munitions loads bought at a Howard Brothers back in the late '60's
Other than just an occasional trace of lead fouling I have been leading free and I have pushed some loads pretty hard in 454 Casulls and 45/70's.
Unless you like to just experiment try the simple way before you make a job out of a fun thing..

[vmathias]

Bought a LEE 405 grain (non gas check design) mold that is casting some beautiful boolits. I will be purchasing a H&R 45-70 in the very near future. Only plan on running these at 1550-1600 tops.

[vmathias]

Is this a rifle or handgun thread? :veryconfu

Conditions will dictate what you can get away with... so to speak. If you want to get off just a few shots to check down range boolit placement, clean, then perhaps "season" your barrel with one or two shots in preparation for the hunt and only shoot a few shots at your quarry, you can get away with very soft boolits. On the other hand, if you're shooting 5-shot groups over the course of an hour or so, you're shooting under very different conditions which shall require a tougher alloy. If you are green at this, you are better off shooting deer with a 45-70 (65-70% meplat) at close range which means velocity isn't a big factor and anything over about 1500-1600 fps is simply wasted. I'm guessing you'll be hunting in PA, correct? What brand of rifle[?] are you using? If you're using a Marlin, I would strongly suggest a gas check designed boolit mold that drops a .461+" boolit.

I would grab this one:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=395

And some Alliant Reloder 7, (don't ask me why they left the "a" out of Reloder) start at 32 grains and work up to maybe 37 grains.

The alloy I would chose would be slightly softer than Lyman #2 but not soft enough to easily distort in handling... about BHN 12-13 is about right. The components you use to create your alloy may vary; however, this hardness range in my area meant (yes, past tense, Pb WW's are now extinct where I collected my supply) a mixture of stick-on lead and clip-on lead WW's which ages in 2 weeks to just about bhn 13. I'm sorry I can't remember the exact proportions of stick-on to clip-on but IIRC it was close to 50/50.

Also, the final boolit hardness after aging will vary with casting conditions. Currently, it's kind of conventional wisdom that long ago Lyman perpetuated a myth about frosted boolits being rejects. These days, many, many shooters are shooting their frosted boolits at targets with fine results; however, I'm going to venture to guess these shooters don't realize how hard their boolits are if they've been allowed to age a month or so.

That NOE mold I linked to above should cast fine if pre-heated and fed 650F (+/-) metal that age hardens to BHN 12-13 and contains some tin.

MJ

Bought a LEE 405 grain (non gas check design) mold that is casting some beautiful boolits. I will be purchasing a H&R 45-70 in the very near future. Only plan on running these at 1550-1600 tops.

[runfiverun]

i'd start more in the 1300 area and move up.
a non gas check boolit may or may not make 15-1600 fps.
I can get there easily in stuff like my 44 mag and 45 colt leverguns.
but things like the 375 win and 45-70 gave me the most trouble over 1400.
I just gave up and went to a gas check design and called it a day.

[Marlin Junky]

Bought a LEE 405 grain (non gas check design) mold that is casting some beautiful boolits. I will be purchasing a H&R 45-70 in the very near future. Only plan on running these at 1550-1600 tops.

You're wasting your time with that combo. Why didn't you get the NOE I suggested? You can always throttle the velocity back to 1300 as R5R suggests and you'll probably still get your deer but I seriously doubt you'll have any luck in the accuracy department at 1550-1600 fps... not with an H&R barrel anyway (unless Remington has redesigned them!)

MJ

[vmathias]

You're wasting your time with that combo. Why didn't you get the NOE I suggested? You can always throttle the velocity back to 1300 as R5R suggests and you'll probably still get your deer but I seriously doubt you'll have any luck in the accuracy department at 1550-1600 fps... not with an H&R barrel anyway (unless Remington has redesigned them!)

MJ

I had already went halves with a buddy on the lee mold. If i cant get the right combos in accuracy and velocity i will def get your suggestion. I was under the impression that the H&R was very accurate??

[1Shirt]

I believe in going with what works for the weapon that you are casting for. Probably 95% of what I cast (rifle or handgun) punches paper, and I usually tend to go on the hard side. For hunting, I like HP's, and if I get aroung toit, 2 part, soft nose, hard base, regardless of cal. There is no magic answer in my opinion.
1Shirt1

[Marlin Junky]

I had already went halves with a buddy on the lee mold. If i cant get the right combos in accuracy and velocity i will def get your suggestion. I was under the impression that the H&R was very accurate??

There's nothing wrong with the NEF Handi-Rifle barrel. My comment was directed at your 1550-1600 fps velocity goal... see my post #5 (it's all in the engineering, weedhoppah :-D).

MJ

P.S. OK, I'll just give it to you straight:

When Marlin was the one and only parent company of NEF, the grooves on some of the H&R barrels looked like they were faux grooves applied to the bore with an artist's paint brush. In other words, there was nil to oppose the shear forces generated at the velocity level you're talking about... and the fact you decided on a plain base configuration for your first casting experience multiplies the possibility for frustration.

I would use the slowest powder practical and some kind of a wad over it... or Pyrodex... it's all about the volume and velocity of the propellant gas now.

[vmathias]

There's nothing wrong with the NEF Handi-Rifle barrel. My comment was directed at your 1550-1600 fps velocity goal... see my post #5 (it's all in the engineering, weedhoppah :-D).

MJ




P.S. OK, I'll just give it to you straight:

When Marlin was the one and only parent company of NEF, the grooves on some of the H&R barrels looked like they were faux grooves applied to the bore with an artist's paint brush. In other words, there was nil to oppose the shear forces generated at the velocity level you're talking about... and the fact you decided on a plain base configuration for your first casting experience multiplies the possibility for frustration.

I would use the slowest powder practical and some kind of a wad over it... or Pyrodex... it's all about the volume and velocity of the propellant gas now.

I will start these at a velocity of 1300fps give or take. This rifle/ boolit combo will be a 100 yard max Deer and Bear rig.With that velocity I will have more than enough energy for that game. If I cannot get my groups under 3" at 100 I will def go with the gas check mold you recommended. Its all a learning experience. :-)

[btroj]

At 100 yards an initial velocity of 1300 is plenty. No deer or bear will stand up to that load.
It will also be far more shoot able.

Don't get too hung up on hardness. It is ONE indication of how a bullet will perform.

Dot forget, a BHn of say 16 can be reached in a few different ways. Water drop a lower Sb alloy and get there, use a higher Sb alloy and no heat treat and get same result. Those bullets could respond very differently on game.
Both can have same BHn yet they are very different alloys.