FF or FFF KIK BP for the 45-70

[Matt85]

so I'm loading cartridges for an original 1888 trapdoor rifle and I've been using KIK FF but am curious about using FFF powder as I might be able to get more then 60grs of powder in my cases. I also figure the FFF powder would produce less fouling. would it be safe to use KIK FFF powder in the gun? has any one had success with this in the past?

sorry if this is a repost but I couldn't find anything using the search feature.

thanks
-Matt

[Don McDowell]

2f, and you can get up to 75 grs of it in a 45-70 case if that's what you want to do. 68-70 grs using a large pistol primer seems to be where the best accuracy is.

[Matt85]

im unable to get more then 60 grains of 2F in a fire formed R-P 45-70 case with a Lyman 530 grain 45-70 gov bullet. this is with decent compression aswell.

-matt

[Don McDowell]

That's odd because I load 70 grs in rp cases for grease groove bullets, and 75 grs for paper patched on a regular basis.

[waksupi]

First question is, do you really need the extra powder? I always kept my loads just sub-sonic to avoid the transition instability.

[Don McDowell]

Depends on what you're doing. Swattin tin cans at 50 yds, poking holes in paper at 100 or even trying to shoot sillouette at 500 meters you can get by with velocity down around 1050-1100, but if you want bullets to stay on a stable course to longer range targets then it takes more powder. 70 grs of 2f KIK only runs out at about 1180 or so with a 535 postel..

[smoked turkey]

Just a thought, Didn't Hornady load some of its flex-tip bullets in shorter cases for the 45-70. I say that so you can confirm for yourself that your cases are standard length and not some that have been shortened.

[johnson1942]

question to every one who replyed to matt 85, would 7 grains of reloader 7 in the bottom of his cases be out of the question? 7 grains of reloader 7 with 60 grains of it 2f back on top. when i did this load it was very clean and very accurate. im not recommending it, just putting it out their for every one to put more experience than i into it. also have seen this load at matches do some real shooting. ive never been a fan of compressing black powder, i like to just settle it all the same with a drop tube so that limits the amount in the case. diff brands of cases hold diff amounts. i wish all my cases were the same brand but they arent and with the shortage im not going to throw any away. i just seperate them according to brand.

[Matt85]

my goal is to try and reproduce the original 45-70 gov cartridge as best i can. im using the book written by spence and pat wolf to help me do this. but as noted im having trouble.

first my cases are factory new R-P 45-70 cases and measure around 2.095". my bullet is a Lyman #457125 made from an alloy of roughly 2-1 wheel weight and pure lead (its just what i have on hand at the moment).

-matt

[cajun shooter]

You did say that you were loading for an original trapdoor but 70 grains of 2F is not a overkill if the rifle is solid as it was made to shoot that load.
The information given to you by Don Mcdowell is very correct as Don is very experienced in the caliber and many others with loading BP.
I don't understand why you have such a bad feeling about compressing your BP in your cases. It is done all the time with great results. BP burns hot but at a very low pressure. There is no danger of high pressure when shooting it with the common 70 grain load.
If you ever decide to try some long range BPCR type loads then you will have to compress your load or go to using that other powder. The load listed by Don with the 535 Postell is a big compressed load and it's very accurate.
Have you read any of the books by Mike Venturino or others on the loading of the BP rifles? They have many available that cover this subject and you may lose some of your hesitation after doing more research on this subject.
This has nothing to do with the filling of your cases but you may also want to look into annealing your cases as this is a big difference maker on the target end. Take Care David

[Boz330]

To add to what Don and David are saying your fouling will also be less with a compressed load. The compression gives a much cleaner burn. I use .500 compression in my 38-55 and that is with Swiss which is not supposed to like compression. 3F will also probably give you a sharp increase in felt recoil.

Bob

[CanoeRoller]

Why you want to reach 70 grains is the real question. Even the original loads did not always use 70 grains. The carbine load used 50 grains over a 405 grain slug, because the cavalrymen were whimps, and complained about the recoil.

If you want to reach 70 grains in order to be as accurate to the old military loads as possible, you want to look for Winchester brass. It will hold the most powder, as it has the thinnest walls of any of the modern brass that I have used.

With BP, a one grain difference in powder is barely noticeable in velocity or point of impact. I also doubt that buffalo hunters would load with tremendous consistency. They did not have the electronic scales we have today. Even if you use winchester brass, you will have to compress your loads quite a bit to get 70 grains of powder in your load, and you may find this is not the most accurate load for your rifle.

The first 45-70's had internal primers in a copper alloy case, the later ones had Berdan primers, not the boxer primers we use today, and the brass was much thinner walled than what we have today. So sadly, if you are trying to match original loads, you will have to make some compromises. With BP, matching the original amount of compression is going to give you a more realistic taste of the original loads than matching the original load by weight.

The unfired infantry loads I found and pulled apart as a kid could be pulled apart easily by a 9 year old with a pair of pliers. So little or no tension between brass and boolit, and the boolit had not backed out of the brass after nearly 100 years of laying in the dirt, so whatever method they used to load the originals, the powder was not held in place by the tension of the the slug.


If you are loading for accuracy, target shooting, long range or silhoutte: higher velocity and accuracy are very distant relatives, and often accuracy is happiest when higher velocity lives in another state, and does not bother to visit over the holidays.

[Don McDowell]

If you want the bullet to print sight on that trapdoor, you'll learn to use either a slow pour thru the funnel, or a droptube to get 70 grs of 2f powder in the case. That will get you very close to the velocity of the original 405 and 500 gr loads.
The trapdoor load was dropped to 55 grs , mostly as a cost saving and military judgement deal. That 55 gr load was affective to 600 yds, and that is the furthest distance the cavalary was ever intended to have to fire at. Their job was to get in close and personal, they did not require a rifle load capable of accuracy to 800+ yds. The infantry loads were all loaded with 70 grs of powder.
Boz is spot on about the fouling, the lower the pressure the worse the fouling.
Take a look at bizzarre things like the Winchester and other catalogs, when they described the ammunition, it pretty clearly states 70 grs of blackpowder.
It's really no big deal to drop 70 grs of 2f, into either a Winchester or Remington case. I and many others use both and have done so for many many years.

[WARD O]

Listen to Don - he knows from experience of what he speaks.

ward

[Matt85]

"I don't understand why you have such a bad feeling about compressing your BP in your cases." im not sure what you mean by this Cajun, I have no bad feeling about compressing BP.

its very possible that the only reason I cant fit 70 grains of 2F in my cases is because im currently unable to properly compress the powder. I have not been able to get a reloading press yet so im compressing the powder by hand. I recently found a new trick and have been able to compress the powder a little more allowing bigger charges.

-matt

[Don McDowell]

Matt if you poor the powder slowly into the case thru your funnel, holding the scalepan/measure a few inches above the funnel, it should leave room to seat a 405 gr bullet with just the bullet compressing the powder a slight bit. I normally use 72 grs with the Lyman version of the original 405 gr bullet.
To seat the 500 gr bullet you will need a press to compress the powder. The Lee hand press works well if you can find one ,until you get a bench mounted press.

[Matt85]

a lee hand loading set is about 2 days out via UPS (if that's what you mean by hand press).

ive back ordered a Lee Challenger anniversary kit from Midway but who really knows when that will show up. collecting the proper equipment to reload is seriously difficult at the moment but im making an effort. I picked a bad time to take up BP cartridge making.

-Matt

['74 sharps]

"I don't understand why you have such a bad feeling about compressing your BP in your cases." im not sure what you mean by this Cajun, I have no bad feeling about compressing BP.

its very possible that the only reason I cant fit 70 grains of 2F in my cases is because im currently unable to properly compress the powder. I have not been able to get a reloading press yet so im compressing the powder by hand. I recently found a new trick and have been able to compress the powder a little more allowing bigger charges.

-matt

A single stage press and a powder compression die will make things go a lot easier........

[Don McDowell]

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/8062 is what I mean by the lee hand press. Handy gadget to have around, use it with one of the universal depriming dies to decap the cases prior to cleaning, and take it along with a set of dies , powder measure,priming tool and all the fixins, to extended shoots where a person might need to load a few more rounds of ammo.

[Matt85]

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/8062 is what I mean by the lee hand press. Handy gadget to have around, use it with one of the universal depriming dies to decap the cases prior to cleaning, and take it along with a set of dies , powder measure,priming tool and all the fixins, to extended shoots where a person might need to load a few more rounds of ammo.

thanks for the link! I went to your link and checked the loading presses and low and behold they have Lee challenger kits in stock! I put in an order for the kit, ill finally have the proper equipment do load with.

-matt

[Don McDowell]

Glad to be of some help.