Tell me about the Lee Zero Error Target Loader kits

[subsonic]

It seems like everybody has decided to OUTside neck turn these days and these kits INside neck reamed.

How was the run-out when making ammo with these kits?

Would I be better off with good dies and an outside neck turner?

I realize these are long out of production.....

[midnight]

I would outside turn rather than inside ream. If a neck is thicker on one side than the other it will still be that way after inside neck reaming. Outside turning will remove more brass from the thick side and you will have a more concentric case.

Bob

[country gent]

I have found I get truer necks by outside turning over neck reaming. Also a mandrell and some adjustment and the neck turner does all caliebers. You need the set for each calibler to neck ream. A draw back to neck turning is unless done right it can leave a "donought" at the neck shoulder junction where the case hasnt been turned. I have done both and perfer neck turning if done alone. I have on thk necks reamed then finished by neck turning both. Neck reaming does make a straighter truer surface for the bullet tension. I believe reaming is faster and eassier to do and get started at. No fine critical adjustments of the cutter. No demanding fits of a mandrell. But when done right I get neck wall thickness variations of .0002 or so. And loaded Dias of .0002. But this loaded dia is really only super important of a fitted chamber where the neck is cut to a set dia and cases are fitted to it, normally .0005-.001 clearence on the loaded round. My match rifle in 243 win is a .267 neck chamber cases have to be turned so as to end up loaded dia of .266 or slightly less// A factory loaded round is around .272 so they wont chamber in this rifle.
A good set of redding bushing dies are a big plus with a inexpensive bushing you can adjust neck tension easily in .001 increments. I used them in .223, .243, .308, and .300 win mag. I have a neck bushing die for 45-70 also. Good dies will make loading much easier and allow for consistency. A good machinist tool maker can convert a normal die to neck bushing with out a lot of fuss. I have bushings for my dies in a +/- .005 range for each caliber. The 45-70 has 5 bushings 3 for paper patched bore riders 2 for grease groove or Paper Pathed groove dia.Theres .008 diffrence in the dia of the 2 styles of bullets. This die also does my 45-90. I dont crimp but perfer to adjust neck tension to hold the bullet with the bushings.

[Dave Bulla]

I might not be qualified to comment as I am not a super anal 1000 yard target shooter, I'm not a bench rest shooter. I'm just a guy who likes to shoot and likes to reload. I've been around some of them guys and they are WAAAAY out of my league when it comes to brass preparation. I think the moon phase and the rotation of the earth need to be calculated and coordinated with the astrological charts before some of them are happy...

I am however a professional mechanic and a reasonably logical fella. I'm a big fan of the Lee kits and I have five of them. All work very well and from the start I always felt that the inside neck reaming made more sense than outside but since I've only ever used the Lee type and never used the more expensive outside neck turners, it has always been a case of two ideas to compare instead of two hands on experiences. I would gladly defer to a user who has done both methods and compared results in depth. At this point, the IDEA of inside reaming makes more sense to me. In my mind, when you drive the case into the die body, it is being forced "round" and any high areas (thick spots) will be forced in and should be removed by the reamer. By default, the neck thickness should be uniform within the limits of the tool. The reamer is supposedly held to .0002" tolerances (two ten thousandths) and your average calipers won't even measure that small. For me, that is far closer tolerance than I or many other shooters will ever need. It also corresponds to countrygent's findings of .0002" variation in neck thickness. I think that in a non custom rifle (i.e. not a target chamber, air gauged target barrel etc.) that it is more than adequate. A serious benchrest shooter may think that is huge.

I would love to learn more about the outside neck turners and how they are able to hold a case to such supposedly tight tolerances. In my mind, I picture something like a case length trimmer with a mandrel that goes inside the case mouth and a chuck of some type holding the case head. The problem I have and I'm probably imagining it all wrong is that if the case neck is thick on one side, the hole is therefore off center so when the whole case is rotated, the middle of the case would be moving all over the place. Imagine rotating a bent stick on a lathe instead of a straight one. Well, more correctly, imagine a piece of wood turning on a lathe and one end is centered but the other end is not. The whole stick would be rotating off center. You could put a chisel to the end where the center is "off" and true it up but it would be out of line with the rest of the stick. That's where I get confuse with the outside neck turner. I keep thinking that the neck is turned in relation to a mandrel on the trimmer, NOT in relation to the rest of the case. In the Lee inside trimmer, the case is held centered and fully supported during the trim step. Just seems to make more sense.

I don't know. Like I said, I've never used an outside neck turner and (obviously) have never even laid eyes on one.

Anybody got pic's or better yet, a video of one in use? You might change my mind yet.

I don't measure every case neck after it's loaded to check for runout, I don't check wall thickness to the ten thousandth of an inch or any of that stuff. I am confident that each casing I treat with the inside neck reamer in the Lee Target kit is BETTER than those that I do not turn regardless of the dies they are loaded in. I do get good results after the bang with the Lee target kits and that's what it's all about for me.

[country gent]

I have a die body made to hold the mandrells I turn on and expand the necks to the mandrell in my press. Due to spring back of the neckthis gives around a .0005 interference fit when Im turning. My case is held in a collet by the head the manderll cutter assembly is turned and the case floats to maintain center. When neck turning most are trying to Just clean up the necks to a presice neck wall thickness some are trying to hold a loaded round diameter also. Ive been a Tool and Die maker for 35 yrs and if the hole isnt straight and true to start a reamer wont straighten it up. A reamer will make holes round and to size but also follow the existing hole. A reamer is easier due to the lack of set up required. Setting up a neck turner is .001 for .002, .001 adjustment on the side is .002 off the diameter, alot of fine fiddling around. Why I said when possible to truly true necks I do both neck ream then size on the manderll andneck turn to size. The gains arnt as large as some think they are. Sorting brass to a for consistant Necks is almost as good. Turning or reaming are diffrent ways of getting to the same place. Both will work both have their plusses both have thier problems. I have seen used hand turners, turners made for trimmers, turners made for use in a drill press, Die body inside reamers and inside reamers for trimmers. Confidence is everything. repeatability means alot. Reamers can be bought from tool supply store in .001 increments. I built the first NRA match rifle in 243 tight necked (.267 loaded round) was it worth it? Made a lot of extra brass prep work . Did it shoot, yes. It was a very consistent performer. Would I do it again probably not, theres alot to be said for being able to shoot factory ammo in a bind. Sorting brass for neck wall thckness is another way of accomplishing this same thing. What Lapua brass I have checked has been very consistent as to thickness. Heres something fory you guys who load at the range to try. Load one case index into chamber and fire reload said case index into chamber fire do this 5-10 times. See what the group is. You have just made everything as consistent as is posible in reality. Indexing the case negates any wall thickness out of round issues in the case. The same load makes for consistency the same day negates some of the weather condidtons. Want to really get interesting do this with 5 cases number them and track each case in the group.

[Larry Gibson]

I have 3 of the Lee target loaders that inside neck ream: .308W, .222 and .223. I also ouside neck turn. With my M70 Target in .308W I conducted several extensive tests on runout with cases inside neck reamed and loaded with the Lee Target Loader, with cases outside neck reamed and loaded with Redding and Bonanza Bench rest dies, with cases inside neck reamed and bullets seated with Redding Competition seater and Bonanza Benchrest seater. The same 50 cases of each were used with all 3 methods. The Lee Target Loader inside neck reamed cases when NS'd in the Lee Target Loader and bullet then seated with either the Redding Competition or Bonanza Bench Rest seater gave the least runout. Out of 100 rounds loaded for long range (600, 800, 900 and 1000 yards) shooting 70%+ would have .000 - .001 runout (tested on 2 different run out devices with 50% of those usually having .000 runout). Of the remaining cartridges 2 -3 would have .002 - .003 runout and the rest would have .001 - .002 runout. The .002 - .003 was never with the same cases BTW.

Needless to say all my long range .308W match ammuntion is NS'd with the Lee Target loader (neck reamed in it also) and the bullets seated with my Bonaza Bench Rest seater.

Additional the Lee inside neck reamer has a slight taper to it. Thus for cast bullets in my .308W M70 match rifle and Palma match rifle I can use the correct bushing in a Redding Bushing die and size the necks so a .311 sized cast bullet just starts in the case. There is not need for an M-die or flaring the case mouths and there is perfect neck tension on the seated bullets. Bullet runout with cast is then as good as it gets.

I never ran such a runout test on the .222 or .223 but ammo loaded with the Lee Target loaders was/is more accurate than that loaded with competition/bench rest type dies also.

BTW; I also outside neck turn other cartridges so I'm not saying one is a lot better than the other but..........I do wish Lee would start making the Target Loaders again........

Larry Gibson

[john hayslip]

Amen Larry

[Dave Bulla]

Hi Larry and countrygent, thanks for the info.

It's good to hear from guys who have actually done some precise testing with either method.

Larry, I'm curious what sort of on paper accuracy differences you encountered when comparing rounds loaded with just the Lee target loader vs conventional dies vs sized and reamed in the Lee and loaded with the competition seating dies. Would you happen to have any notes on that?

I'll probably never get into the long range target shooting other than at the "back pasture" level with some buddies but I still appreciate a precisely loaded batch of ammo and it's always fun to outshoot the guys if I can. I'm liking the simplicity of the Lee kits at this point and I'm basically wondering how rounds loaded 100% with the kit compares to what you were doing by sizing and reaming in the Lee and seating with the Redding dies.

[country gent]

Heres a fun little game. Get you 50 yds zero on a good .22 LR come up roughly 22-24 minutes ( long rifles vary alot) and shoot at 200 yds with it. A 22 at 200 yds is almost Identical to a 308 at 1000 yds. How I used to practice for 1000 yd matches. Hold release and follow thru become critical and reading wind is essential. A real ball to do. My son would rather that than the centerfires at 200 yds. There were several of us that did this at the club and we always got alot of attention from other shooters doing the 22 at 200yds.

[Doc Highwall]

I have neck turned also and I now use this from 21st Century and it works great.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/neck-turning-lathe-from-21st-century/

Country gent, here is a good article on shooting a 22lr. at 200 yards along with a wind chart, but they say it is closer to 440 yards with a 308 Winchester shooting 175 gr. MatchKings.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/rimfire-tactical-precision-match/

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I'm curious what sort of on paper accuracy differences you encountered when comparing rounds loaded with just the Lee target loader vs conventional dies vs sized and reamed in the Lee and loaded with the competition seating dies. Would you happen to have any notes on that?

Not "notes" as such but a lot of shots recorded in score books for 800, 900 and 1000 yard "belly Matches". I found out quickly that match LR cartridges loaded in conventional dies (LC Match M852 cases and WW Palma cases) had a large % of rounds with runout exceeding .004. Match rounds with the same cases loaded in Bonanza Benchrest dies showed a smaller % with .004 runout. Testing at 600 yards showed those with runout exceeding .004 could cause a loss of a point at 600 yards and possibly 2 points at 1000 yards. In competition where winning is sometimes determined by X count losing those points to non-concentric ammuntion is not acceptable at or above a certain level of competition.

When the match rounds were neck sized with the Lee Target Loader (Including the inside neck ream) the concentricity improved dramatically. Sizing with the Lee Target Loader and seating with the Bonaza Benchrest seater produced the lowest runout with very few rounds with as much as .002 - .003 runout. Those few were relegated to "sighters". With such match loads (45 gr Varget under the 175 gr MK) having .000 - .0015 runout I could hold (back "in the day"), with my M70 target in a prone position with sling and Redfield Palma match sights, well within the 10 ring at 1000 yards with usually around 60%+ of the shots in the 10 ring (10 ring is 2 moa and the X ring is 1 moa). With a scope on the M70 I could hold X ring at 1000 yards with a sandbaged forend.

There was/is no doubt in my retired military mind that properly loaded concentric ammuntion is a key to accuracy at long range. If Lee would bring out the Target Loader again with the inside neck reamer I would probably buy at least 10 new different ones. I have that much faith in them.

I have to add that when loading with just the Lee Target Loader the concentricity was a lot better than with conventional dies. Especially when an arbor type press was used to seat the bullets with the Lee seater. It was not quite as good though as when the bullets were seated with the Bonanza Benchrest seater. I attribute the better results with the Bonanza die because of the case hloding sleave and tighter tolerances of the seating stem. When seating with the Lee die the neck and case are not as well supported and the seating stem is as tight a fit in the die. Still, when seated with the Lee Target Loader, the concentricity was a lot better than with conventional dies.


Larry Gibson

[Mike Kerr]

Well I'll be darn'd. A thread on pretty darn accurate shooting that did not bore me to death anywhere in the thread or replies. Sounded very interesting and none of you sounded anal at all (a common bench shooter afliction). Hmmm!

regards,

:-D:-D:-D

[btroj]

Oh, a good 1000 yards shooter must be anal or he wouldn't be good.
I can guarantee you there are details Larry didn't provide that would bore ou to death.

[Doc Highwall]

Having both won and lost matches due to one point difference or even winning by X count I agree with Larry on taking extra measures with your ammo.

After finally learning to shoot consistent 400 score out of a possible 400-40X in small-bore competition, a national record holder that I shoot with told me “Welcome to the ammo chase”. My personal record is 400 - 37 X’s shot against him and coming in 3rd in the match, against his 400 - 38 X’s and another record holder shooting 400 – 37 X’s that had 1 more X on the second half of the target, where I had one more X on the first half of the target.

With small-bore we cannot load our 22 Lr. ammo but we can test it for accuracy and use a barrel tuner, but with our center fire/High-power what we do at the reloading bench can and does have a affect on the out come in our shooting.

[Larry Gibson]

Oh, a good 1000 yards shooter must be anal or he wouldn't be good.
I can guarantee you there are details Larry didn't provide that would bore ou to death.

btroj and Doc are both right; I do get anal about my long range ammuntion......bores me to tears sometimes but it is necessary if you want the best.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Good enough doesn't exist.

[Doc Highwall]

Who won,......... and a long list of losers, even 2nd place.

[Larry Gibson]

Who won,......... and a long list of losers, even 2nd place.

Just like Bill Jordan said; "No Second Place Winner"

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

But second place is first loser.......

I got chastised for "bragging" at highpower matches because I wasnt satisfied with 196 in rapid fire. It isn't bragging, it just wasn't gonna get me where I wanted to be.

Winning takes effort, time, and lots of skilled practice. It also takes a desire to not accept anything but perfect scores.

[pathdoc]

Given that this is a self-contained kit in a box that's probably older than I am (early 40s), I don't think we can complain too much if it doesn't quite match up to the current-day gold standard in long range ammo prep. ;)

Does anyone know if they made this thing in .303 British? I asked Lee, but they basically said "This thing was made by Lee Custom Engineering, our predecessor; we have no record of it." This also suggests that a re-issue is not on the cards. What a damn shame. I'd buy one in an instant, and likewise the Lee Shotgun Loaders.

[Dave Bulla]

pathdoc,

I watch the Lee Loader kits pretty close on ebay and have for several years. I don't believe I've EVER seen one of the target kits in 303 British. The standard kits are not uncommon in .303 though.

FYI, there are four basic versions of these (not counting the shotgun loaders).

There is the standard "Lee Loader" which was made in over 100 calibers.

Next there was the "Improved" Lee Loader which is about half way between the standard and the target versions. It has a hand primer tool, a separate case mouth expander/crimper and a primer pocket cleaner.

Third was the "Unitized" Lee Loader which physically looks identical to the "Improved" kit but is the only one that full length sizes the case.

Last was the "Zero Error Target" Lee Loader which is the kit we're talking about and it has the case length trimmer and the neck reamer.

You will also see kits marked "Mequon" that are identical to the "Improved" and "Unitized" kits and are in fact some part of the history of Lee but I don't know the details.

The "Improved" kits are almost as nice as the Target kits and I've gotten excellent results with them but they don't have provisions for trimming or turning the brass. I really like the separate crimper they have.

[pathdoc]

Thanks for your answer.

I will if course need some sort of case mouth belling device if I go down the cast bullet route (which I will, as soon as I've accumulated enough lead), and I have a press already if I need to FL resize (most of my old brass was shot in a different rifle, so it's all going to have to make a trip through eventually). A full length resizing option in the loader would be nothing short of outstanding.

As for the hand priming tool, I tried priming 20 cases with the standard Loader the other day. None of them went off, and I have confidence in the method.

[SgtDog0311]

Anyone know if the Zero Error Target kit came in 405 caliber?

Also, if anyone would take the trouble to snap a picture and post it of this ‘in use’ that would be much appreciated. Images available on the web of this sitting in the box leave a lot to the imagination. Or ask ‘too much’ imagination for those with not enough.

I did some inside neck reaming for a Marlin Ballard 40-63 in order to shoot ‘groove size’ in a tight chamber. I have already done fifty 405 donor cases and have another 50 I’d like to do a better job on.

For the first 50 I used a borrowed Forster case trimmer and an inside neck cutter attached and it worked well for my purposes, (ie, getting a .410 bullet to chamber) but with close inspection you could see by the shoulder left inside the case neck where the reamer reached max depth and it was not completely concentric. Invariably a shoulder was more visible on one side than on the opposite side where it blended in to the original surface or was simply not as visible. That would make me assume at least SOME run out. It shoots great but a better starting point would be preferred.

129524

I have a Wilson case trimmer I like very much and the Wilson case holders would hold the case concentric but Wilson does not make a cutter this size and even if they did I’d expect problems with the case turning inside the case holder since it’s just friction fit and judging from the trouble the Forster collet had holding onto the case head for the full depth with my original 50 cases.

I’d sure like to do a better job on the next 150 cases than I did on the first 50 and this looks like a good option if they are made in that caliber and of course if you could then find one.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't do either of these operations as I am far down the food chain with respect to High Accuracy Shooters,,, However I am a pretty experienced machinist and toolmaker, so I kind of understand the processes here, and what the results will be.

With respect to Reaming the ID of a case mouth if the reamer is not bushed or guided it will generally follow the existing hole's centerline. However if the reamer is guided by a bushing that sits in front of the case mouth then it will bore a new hole with a centerline coincident with the guide hole or bushing. In other words, if the existing hole is off center with relation to the guide hole, the new hole will follow the guide hole,,, NOT the existing hole.

In the case of the Lee Tools the guide hole is in fact concentric to the od of the case neck, which IMHO is going to be preferable to other methods since after reaming everything is in line on one common centerline.

In the case of Outside Neck Turning,,, The cutter has a pilot that indexes on the ID of the case mouth, and thus any turning done on the OD of the neck will be concentric to the existing necks centerline which may or maynot be concentric to the actual centerline of the case in general. All this operation can accomplish is to make the thickness of the case neck uniform all the way around.

For this reason it would seem that "under the correct circumstances," ID Reaming would produce more accurate results.

Without the bushed reaming guide it would make no difference as both would yield case necks with whatever runout was present in the case neck before the operation.

One would have to consider the actual relevance of bullet runout, neck tension, seating depth, and other factors ,,, all of which contribute to accuracy in one way or another, in order to achieve Nirvana* at the Long Distance shoot. (* Nirnava = winner!)

With all that accomplished,,,, all you have to do is shoot the gun, and prove that all of this "Hoopla and Oink" has not been wasted due to your own inability to make the shot happen.

I have not achieved this level of expertise,,, and as a result I still only load my rounds the regular way. When I gain the ability to outshoot my guns then I will look into splitting hairs and looking for that extra bit that puts the winners over the top.

Randy

[TNsailorman]

I have never been a high power shooter at longer ranges. I have driven thousands of 30-06 down range at distances that most would call short range (100 to 300 yards). I have been able to get some really good groups from a rest at those distances. I have never had a good set of bench rests. I always use a rolled up and taped towel or tightly rolled up jacket, etc. I use the Lee Target Loader that I bought in the mid- to late 60's to prep my cases the first time if load them. That means driving the case into the sizer chamber and inside neck ream while it is in the chamber. This holds any imperfection of the case neck to the inside of the case while the cutter trims it away. It is tightly and straightly supported that way. The outside neck turn does the same thing except the inside of the neck mandrel hold the case neck in place while the cutter trims the thick places away. Same operation; it just means one trims a held case neck inside and the other trims a held case neck outside. Trimming with a forster or other trimmers using inside or outside trimmers will trim but I have found that they don't always trim true because the collet that holds the case can hold it slightly off center if the user is not really careful, and I mean really careful. Also rim thickness can come into play on the of the crank style trimmers The pilots for these trimmers rarely hold the case tight enough to keep them from walking and also the inside trimmers can cause the necks to swell as they trim, giving random uniformity to the wall thickness of the case. The kind of accuracy being talked about here is not really necessary for hunters except for the fellows that attempt shots on game at long range (shots greater than 300 yards). I like the inside trimmers better and like Larry, I wish Lee would return them to production. I would buy one of them for every caliber of rifle I own if they would start making them again. This is my own experience from 55+ years of shooting bolt action rifle and reloading for the same. I am not arguing against anyone's favored method, just re-counting my experience. You experience using my methods may or may not mirror mine. james

[SgtDog0311]

Pardon my ignorance - I've never seen one of these in action so just trying to understand if it’s an improved option over the Forster for a requirement that is absolute in this case. I've got to inside neck ream in order to shoot groove size cast, that is when I'm not shooting paper patch – unless I want to open the chamber up, which I don’t.

So, my ignorance notwithstanding, this sounds like my Wilson stood on end. Am I understanding correctly that I've essentially got a case holder that somehow threads into your press and a hand turned reamer that operates on a securely held case (much like a Wilson would do but with more tension on the case to keep it from spinning)? If so, it sounds like it would be the ticket "if" they made them for a 405 case. I've looked around and have not found one yet so if anyone has seen one, be obliged to know whether watching ebay would be worth the time.

[TNsailorman]

Sgt, the Lee Target Loader is very similar to the Lee Loader(manual reloading kit) that has a long chamber for the case to be driven into for sizing, powder charging and bullet loading. The difference is that the Target Loader also has a hand cranked inside neck reamer that fits into the chambered case holder and turns to ream the inside of the neck of a case. It is a manual kit and does not fit onto a press. If I could do pictures I would post a sequence of photo's to illustrate its operation but, alas, I cannot do pictures. U-tube should have a sequence somewhere demonstrating how this is done on the small Lee Loader Kit. Maybe the Lee site will also. james

[SgtDog0311]

James, thanks for the explanation! I had not thought about YouTube. I'll give it a try. Appreciate it.

[bstone5]

I have several of the Lee losers with the inside neck reamer. With the case driven into the die the case is centered while reaming.

I did a lot of 308 brass when I shot high power matches.

After one time in the Lee loader with the reamer I would neck size with a button.

Using a bolt gun the brass could be used several times before requiring full length sizing.

The brass was always used in same match rifle.

[EDG]

The Lee Target Model Tool used an end cutting only reamer that was guided by a honed bore in the die.
The neck sizing section of the die body was tapered. When you bored (not reamed) the case neck it was as concentric as the 2 diameters in the die. The resulting neck was tapered a little on the outside.

I thought they were excellent tool and I owned 4 or 5 of them at one time.
However the reamer, naturally, is not adjustable. So you get what the diameter the reamer is ground to for a neck thickness.

I sold all of my Target Model Loaders because I liked the Wilson tools better. The Wilson tools work a little better for a
tight neck chamber because neck turning tools are adjustable. You can make the neck any thickness you want.

There were a fair list of Lee Target Model Loaders made. I think they are an excellent tool for a guy with a standard factory rifle who wants a simple way to produce more accurate ammo.

[Boss577]

Given that this is a self-contained kit in a box that's probably older than I am (early 40s), I don't think we can complain too much if it doesn't quite match up to the current-day gold standard in long range ammo prep. ;)

Does anyone know if they made this thing in .303 British? I asked Lee, but they basically said "This thing was made by Lee Custom Engineering, our predecessor; we have no record of it." This also suggests that a re-issue is not on the cards. What a damn shame. I'd buy one in an instant, and likewise the Lee Shotgun Loaders.

I'm a bit late on this, but maybe some one else may want to know ?


Yes they did make the Lee Target Model Zero Error in 303 Brit & I have one, makes a nice job .

[SgtDog0311]

Boss577, I didn't ask that particular question but thanks for answering anyway. Maybe someone will come along who knows if they made one in 405. Those are my doner cases for a Marlin Ballard 40-63 and that's probably as close as I could get!

[257]

I had one many years ago for my model 70 bull barrel 225 Winchester before I even owned a press or scale loaded my own with it shot 5 shot groups the size of a dime have a couple of them in 222 and 2506 laying around here somewhere that I don't even use any more

[gunwonk]

have a couple of them in 222 and 2506 laying around here somewhere that I don't even use any more
Would you be willing to sell or trade the one for .222 ? Thanks! :)

[ascast]

wow- this thread is why I pay for an internet connection
thanks all for posting in detail