Arcane Style mold?

[Thompsoncustom]

Well I was wondering if there are any "Arcane" pointed style 9mm molds out there that won't break the bank. Ballisti cast has exactly what I want but not looking to spend 120 bucks on a mold. The most I've spent was 40 on my like new lyman so 120 for a mold is just crazy to me. Didn't know if there were any others out there that had a bullet like #907 in the photo. Thanks Dan

71069

[eljefe]

I just got one of these.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000152660402

I bought the four cavity for $78 and change. It is a little heavier
than the one in the pic, and casts about 125 with my alloy (coww).

I lubed it with White label 50/50 and loaded it over some
Longshot (Hodgdon) and it shot very well out of my Hi-Power.
It was sized at .357, accurate and no leading.

[texassako]

I have seen Lyman 358093/35893 single cavity molds pop up occasionally on auction sites. I don't know if it would work in a 9mm though, but it is definitely pointy.

[Thompsoncustom]

Ya looking for a mold like the Lyman 358093/35893 that TEASSAKO listed. More pointy then truncated cone. Doesn't need to have a crimp or lube groove as I plain on order some of the bayou bullet coating when it gets it. So grooves or no grooves both should work.

[leadman]

I had that style boolit in an older Lyman 4 cavity mold but sold it about a year ago. I never shot in so can not comment on the performance. A new Lyman 2 cavity mold is running close to $70 at most of the dealers now.

[NoZombies]

Unless you get lucky finding a used mold someplace, the ballisticast will probably be about the cheapest option. The 35893 usually sells for ungodly money on ebay.

[happy7]

Noe sold some of these in various calibers.

[Thompsoncustom]

If anyone just has to have a 35793 spire point there one on ebay # 190842892826 but last time I checked it was already over a 100 bucks

[Ben]

Teach me something.

Why is this called an Arcane mold ?

Ben

[Thompsoncustom]

beats me I was just looking for pointy bullets and arcane/spire is what came up.

[Ben]

I thought I knew a bit about cast bullets.
Obviously , I don't know much.
I'd never heard of that word. ( arcane )
Never came across it in my readings.

???????????????

[fecmech]

According to the dictionary arcane means mysterious or secret I believe. The truncated cone designs by Lyman, Lee and RCBS in the 120-130 gr range are excellent, accurate bullets that feed as reliably as ball ammo. IMO you can't go wrong with any of them.

[Airman Basic]

If I remember rightly, when I first read about the arcane bullets, that was somebody's name for the bullet style. They were turned on a lathe from brass or copper. Remember reading this in the gun mags of the day, the 70's, but I ain't rooting through my collection unless somebody wants to pay me.:wink:

[captaint]

You funny, Ben. Now, everybody's funny. Mike

[Artful]

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm

38 Special KTW (105 grains teflon-tipped bullet for penetrating car doors)
357 Magnum ARCANE (70 grains copper bullet)
357 Magnum SIB (77 grains copper bullet)
357 Magnum THV (45 grains brass bullet)
44 Magnum SIB
45 ACP SIB
45 ACP THV

71568

An article by reloading guru Dean Grennell showing "Arcane" ammo designed by the French.
The principal was making handgun bullets out of brass into very pointy shapes and being able to drive them at double velocities of normal lead-based bullets.

The result was horrendous holes in agelatin or some kind of clay.
Where a lead .45 would cause a hole barely larger than the bullet diameter, the "Arcane" caused fist-sized craters.

A 'pinched tip' solid copper bullet w/a hollow base. High velocity. It not only gave penetration against hard & resiliant surfaces (steel, vests,etc) but on soft tissue targets it gave wounds almost double caliber size in some cases. A couple of different tip designs were around to try to combat feeding problems.

Some complaints about not enough penetration on soft targets. Hard to figure when they punch through steel! but that was a complaint of some Euro LE buyers.
I think the US import problems were partially to do with the armor piercing part of the design. No AP handgun ammo in the USA,, exceptions to LE - see "cop killer bullets'

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

Previously discussed
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21200-Brass-Bullets&highlight=Arcane

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?93443-Specialty-amp-AP-pistol-cartridges&highlight=Arcane

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98344-The-POINTY-Boolit-Mould-Buy!&highlight=Pointy

NOE
71570

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?123433-The-pointy-boolit-REALLY-works!&highlight=Pointy

71569

[gunoil]

I'll never buy a cheap mold again.

[J..]

A little more info: (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/THV.htm)


71716

It would appear any mould maker capable of making a deep-hollowbase mould could make such a beast.

[Thompsoncustom]

interesting. I never really tested the armor piercing powers of my zinc alloy rounds but I'm sure they could go through as much as the above bullet (.12in). The side of my bullet trap is 1/4 or 3/8's of a inch and they made it about half way through that before stopping and they weren't any fancy design just the standard lee 102 RN and lee 125 RN TL.

[Thompsoncustom]

Anyone Know the degree of the spire point on the ballistic mold #907?

I have an junk lee mold that I'm just going to throw away do you think I can take a drill bit with the right tip and diameter and just make that bullet minus the lube groove?

[Artful]

I would choose a bit just undersize so you keep your lube groove then grind the point on the bit
- it will leave a shoulder but that good for clean holes in paper targets.
scale drawing from http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?98344-The-POINTY-Boolit-Mould-Buy!&highlight=Pointy
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=432&pictureid=2925
Looks to be using same angle on all sizes...
72094

I don't think it's critical to have the point go all the way to the side
72095
72096
72097
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/514/ammo262om7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/514/ammo103vh6.jpg/

[Artful]

Oh, and while looking for pictures above I found this tidbit posted by JohnMoss


Short History of SIB, and ARCANE, courtesy of Dr. Philippe Regenstreif, who was a close friend of the founder of SIB. I thought this information, told before on the Forum, might be of interest to this particular thread. To keep from retelling the SIB and ARCANE stories over and over on the Forum, maybe someone could put all this information into an article and it could be put on the regular, permanent articles on this web site.

Société Industrielle de Balistique
3 rue des Moines, F-78000 Versailles

This small family enterprise (the made their first lead bullets in their kitchen!) was founded by a former Croation, Stefan Buljovcic, who was in the Yugoslavian shooting team in some Olympic Games (I do not remember when exactly, but this was in South Korea).

He did not like Tito at all and came in France as a prolitical refugee in the 1960s, where he got married to a French woman and founded a family. He was running first a small armoury business in his own house (!) and took some patents (and also copied lots of others!).

He had a brother-in-lw in the plastics business, so he did at first plastic-saboted projectiles of any kind and shape, that he sold to shooters. He also manufactured plastic ammunition boxes for shooters, exactly copied on their US-made counterparts, but for the color!

He was in touch with some people in the Police and Gerdarmerie, so he had the idea to manufacture solid-copper bullets of diverse shapes for pistol and revolver shooting, with enhanced armour-piercing capabilities. He also made trials in 12 Gauge slugs and even up to 30 mm cannon rounds!

A medical patient and friend of mine, his business went wrong with adoption of the new French legislation (Note from JLM - please realize that this history was sent to me in June of 2003). He closed his shop around 1992, then retired in Southern France where he is now taking care (if he is still alive) of a collection of rare plants and trees in a farm he had bought several years ago, his second hobby!


Laboratoire Arcane,
B.P. 20 92410 Marnes La Coquette

The name "Arcane" comes from the Greek for "ultimate secrecy."

I have the documents, a supposed-to-be production box (which was never commercialized) and some of the prototype bullets. Fabrice Bodet, the founder of Arcane, took French and US Patents, which cost him a fortune for nothing, as at the same time, US authorities declared his kind of projectile unlawful. Before, he had been approached by S&W and some major ammo manufactuers but everything was stopped at once.

He made bullets of several shapes, all from lathe-turned, solid-copper bars, in 9 x 17 Browning, 9 x 19 Parabellum, .38 S&W Special, .357 Magnum and .45 ACP. They were handloaded on Hirtenberger brass, some also on SFM cases, depending on what he had at hand.

I (note by JLM: Dr. Regenstreif) tested his products in .45 ACP with my old friend André Rolland, who was the Chief of National Police Shooting Team, at a Police Shooting and Training Range close to Paris, but we only shot in plastilin blocks. Even with this material, some bullets tended to desintegrate at impact, and the conical entry hole at 9 meters distance was approximately .1 meter wide in diameter! We wrote several articles, especially in AMI, a Belgian monthly weapon magazine from this period. Recoil and smoke were dreadful!

He also experimented for a time with the .308 NATO (sic) calibre and was in touch both with the Police and Army's Special Forces. they discovered that rifling was too quickly destroyed by Arcane bullets, as Bodet, who was by no means an engineer, neither a ballistician as he pretended, only managed to fill the case as much as he could (!) with a mixture of his own, obtained by mixing diverse brands of French and foreign powders, the cases being so full that powder got badly compressed with the result that you may expect, ie over-pressure, primer expulsions, broken cases, a.s.o.

At 20 years of age, Fabrice Bodet was the son of a wealthy person (the inventor of plastic conditioning machine for medicine pills), so he lived from his income and never was very active since his father passed away, but managed to play some roles in some "limit" businesses, like weapon buying and reselling, etc. The point is that he used his good relationship with politicians and Police top brass, so he could do almost what he wished to do for awhile, but not so much as I learned last month (JLM note: Remember again this informatio is from June 2003) that he was presently in jail, for what I do not know (and do not wish to know!).

It must be noted that contrary to the inventor of ALIA and THV bullets, André Antoine. the Mssrs. Buljovcic and Bodet were just amateurs, with almost no technical background!
http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9591&view=previous

[NSP64]

I thought arcane ammo was first used by the Nazi in 9mm subguns against lightly armoured vehicles(halftracks).

[M99SavNut]

I have a Lyman 35893 single-cavity mold, and bought a #93 nose punch on eBay to go with it; haven't used it yet, but had some .44 cal. boolits a friend gave me that had essentially the same point on them. I have since seen a Lyman 429303 mold for sale, also on eBay, that appears to be where those came from. Sized and lubed those in my Lyman 450, using the #93 punch which worked just fine, so the point contour is, if not the same, close enough.

And I've always understood "arcane" to refer to something not well known or understood, and not all that useful, either. Oh, well.

[Artful]

I thought arcane ammo was first used by the Nazi in 9mm subguns against lightly armoured vehicles(halftracks).

The original loading was a 124gr FMJ with a lead core.

As lead became more scare/valuable during WW2 the Germans designed a jacketed bullet with a iron core (mE - mit Eisenkern = with iron core). Basically a iron core insert encased in lead at the tip, sides and base of the insert.

They then produced a jacketed bullet using a completely sintered iron core (sE - sintered Eisen = sintered iron).
An sample sE bullet was loaded by Hasag Eisin u. Metallwerke in Poland in 1942 (factory code: kam) weighs 100 grains.

Towards the end of the war they dropped the jacket from the sE bullet and all that remained was a light weight sintered iron bullet.
A sample bullet loaded by RWS of Germany in 1944 (factory code: dnh) weighs only 90 grains.

I've not seen any ballistics tables for any of these loads out of pistols or SMGs back during WWII, but I'm sure they exist somewhere
(or existed at one time). But they were not designed as AP rounds. The original 9x19 cartridge was a conical projectile, but was changed to more easily feeding shapes we are familiar with today about 1910's or 1920's.

That's about all the info I can offer you with my limited knowledge about WWII German 9mm ammo.