41 was good enough to send me some Bens Red.

[44man]

I just got up from shooting to test the B.R. in a revolver. I also shot my burnt lube and Felix. I used my .44 at 50 yards with the RD 265 gr.
It shoots OK but I believe it is too slippery for the revolver. I keep getting an indication of boolits breaking tension.
There was no leading in the barrel. We will try it in a 1911 when my friend comes out, then to a rifle. It should work fine in those.
My burnt stuff was tested before with other boolits and it does the exact same thing. It will put 3 shots close and throw 2 every single time.
Now my boolits are not clean like from a lub-sizer, with just lube in grooves. I use over size Lee dies and my boolits all have a lube film on them, like TL. It might make a difference in holding tension.
Anyway, more testing in the future. Here are the targets. 41's two batches of B.R. left, my burnt stuff and then Felix. 70935

[41 mag fan]

Looks like the new batch is grouping somewhat better than the old batch. But it looks like your lube groups better till the 2 flyers.
Are the 2 flyers from your lube, the last 2 shots?
Also if you would, explain about neck tension, symptoms, and how anyone like myself, can come to thinking theres a possibility of it occuring in one of our revolvers or 1911's, and what to do to help eliminate it.

In my 45-70, Bens Red is doing great. I'm still playing with different boolits, and powders, but after 140 rds shot thru, I have no leading and running 2 dry patches thru, theres minimal powder residue.

Now one thing that did come to mind just with your preliminary results so far, is it might take a longer barrel with Bens Red to work efficiently as compared to the Felix lube. Just a thought that'll hopefully be disproved.

And there is the possiblity, both of my batches the R&T wasn't melted sufficiently as compared to your batch. I might have to make another batch just to see.

[44man]

I don't think they were the last shots, just random from what I could see.
Neck tension must be even between brass. The first thing you will see is vertical stringing.
I am using 296. If you use a faster powder, the stringing is reduced.
Seems a primer can budge out a boolit before full ignition can take place.

[41 mag fan]

That's interesting Jim on the neck tension. I'll have to remember that when I start back on the pistols again.
Thinking of trying to make a batch of Felix lube also and use on my pistols just to compare.

[geargnasher]

Revolvers are particularly sensitive to and excellent studies in barrel time and launch consistency. Ben's Red is something like 40% oils, whereas Felix lube is only about 20% or less, and what oils the Felix lube has are tied up nicely with sodium stearate so the release of oils is consistent and happens in the barrel, not inside the cartridge case. Since rifles are somewhat less sensitive to variances in "jump starts", and it's possible and indeed quite common to seat boolits to engrave the rifling, the "greasy boolit" phenom is less important. Ben's Red works great in the barrel, but those groups are telling me that it's not promoting consistent boolit grip and is throwing the burn curve out of whack with that gun and load.

Gear

[44man]

Gear, you always explain it better then I do.
I am going to load some more and measure seating pressure to see if I can sort them. I will be able to compare Felix pressure too.

[41 mag fan]

Revolvers are particularly sensitive to and excellent studies in barrel time and launch consistency. Ben's Red is something like 40% oils, whereas Felix lube is only about 20% or less, and what oils the Felix lube has are tied up nicely with sodium stearate so the release of oils is consistent and happens in the barrel, not inside the cartridge case. Since rifles are somewhat less sensitive to variances in "jump starts", and it's possible and indeed quite common to seat boolits to engrave the rifling, the "greasy boolit" phenom is less important. Ben's Red works great in the barrel, but those groups are telling me that it's not promoting consistent boolit grip and is throwing the burn curve out of whack with that gun and load.

Gear

Gear...explain the burn curve if you don't mind. Are you talking of the lube burning off in the barrel or something else?

[geargnasher]

41, I mean pressure curve. In order to get any smokeless powder to build pressure and do work, there has to be resistance (boolit pull, crimp, engraving pressure, static inertia of the boolit's mass, and so on).

If the resistance changes any from shot to shot, as in this case variances due to an uneven, oily lube residue between driving bands and the inside of the case that grips them, then the powder will build pressure differently each shot depending on the variance the lube film creates, and that will change the shape of the pressure-time curve of the burning powder. Changes in the pressure-time curve change barrel time, and barrel time changing in a revolver affects point of impact quite noticeably.

Gear

[44man]

Exactly!
In the revolver even a difference in each piece of brass with jacketed bullets can do it. Add lead and grease to uneven brass tension and things get whacky.

[runfiverun]

jim you might wanna try adding more wax to a couple of batches.
lube friction seems to make quite a difference.
you shoot well enough to show changes in lube friction just from adding more wax to bens lube.
the oil content from lith lubes is hard to control at times and the wax is what takes up the slack.
I think I wrote about it in 41 mags thread explaining it some.

[44man]

jim you might wanna try adding more wax to a couple of batches.
lube friction seems to make quite a difference.
you shoot well enough to show changes in lube friction just from adding more wax to bens lube.
the oil content from lith lubes is hard to control at times and the wax is what takes up the slack.
I think I wrote about it in 41 mags thread explaining it some.
That is what I plan to do with my burnt stuff.
I gave half to a friend to try in his 1911 and other pistols. I think it will do good in those.

[41 mag fan]

41, I mean pressure curve. In order to get any smokeless powder to build pressure and do work, there has to be resistance (boolit pull, crimp, engraving pressure, static inertia of the boolit's mass, and so on).

If the resistance changes any from shot to shot, as in this case variances due to an uneven, oily lube residue between driving bands and the inside of the case that grips them, then the powder will build pressure differently each shot depending on the variance the lube film creates, and that will change the shape of the pressure-time curve of the burning powder. Changes in the pressure-time curve change barrel time, and barrel time changing in a revolver affects point of impact quite noticeably.

Gear

OK...now I know what you were meaning. Burn curve made me think of the potential of the lube burning off as the boolits is going down the barrel. Just threw me on the wording. But the way you explained it, I understand and realize now what Jim meant by neck tension....and have played with it myself...more..less ect ect on given calibers. Just took me awhile to realize what was being meant. I'll blame it on the meds I'm taking right now!!


That is what I plan to do with my burnt stuff.
I gave half to a friend to try in his 1911 and other pistols. I think it will do good in those.

Jim, if you need more of my batches, let me know and I can send you some more.
Also, one thing I've noticed, if you let the boolits sit for a day or 2 after lubing, it does stiffen up and becomes somewhat less tacky.
Now on the 1911's I've had good luck with Bens Red. Of course I'm only shooting 7-15yrds as that'd be the average defensive distance if I needed to use mine.
Which if your friend finds it acceptable, it could be the neck tension relation you describe and mention, or roll vs taper crimp.

[44man]

41, neck tension is not as important in a rifle or semi pistol because there is resistance to boolit movement.
The boolit in a revolver can move in the throats.
Crimp really does nothing but hold a boolit in under recoil, it has little affect on burn.
I am now flush with lubes so I will not need any but thank you much for the offer.
I think you are having too much fun! [smilie=2:

[41 mag fan]

41, neck tension is not as important in a rifle or semi pistol because there is resistance to boolit movement.
The boolit in a revolver can move in the throats.
Crimp really does nothing but hold a boolit in under recoil, it has little affect on burn.
I am now flush with lubes so I will not need any but thank you much for the offer.
I think you are having too much fun! [smilie=2:

Anything that'll stink up the garage and keep my wife at bay..you better believe it!!