Cast Boolits and Glocks

[newcastter]

So I was at one of my local gun shops yesterday pricing out 1911's when I over heard a younger associate tell a customer to never shoot lead through a glock??? Well this is the first time I have ever heard that but apparently it is a well known rumor. I asked him why he suggested that, and he stated because of the way the riflings were cut that the lead would build up and create a smooth bore and he also suggested that with HK's. So I explained that is called leading and it happens with improperly sized bullets, alloy or poor lube and that I have put over 1000 rnds through my Glock 22 and the barrel shines like a mirror with no leading. He looked at me like I was seriously doing something dangerous so I asked him if he has ever cast boolits or loaded his own cast boolits and he answered No. So I guess this is online forum information your giving customers and he said no its just fact. Now I have only been reloading for 4 yrs and casting for 3 yrs but I feel I have enough experience to determine what I am doing is perfectly safe.
Has anyone else encountered anything like this and what are your opinions on this matter?

[jmort]

"...he said no its just fact"

He is right, it is a fact.

Glock, the manufacturer, specifically warns against firing lead bullets. Many people ignore the manufacturer's warning. Lead build-up can cause unsafe pressure. Not the reason for the term "Glock Kaboom" but it is another way a Glock can "Kaboom."

[Jailer]

"...he said no its just fact"

He is right, it is a fact.

Glock, the manufacturer, specifically warns against firing lead bullets. Many people ignore the manufacturer's warning. Lead build-up can cause unsafe pressure. Not the reason for the term "Glock Kaboom" but it is another way a Glock can "Kaboom."

I'm surprised that you've been around here for 2 years and still make that assertion. Glocks are just like every other gun when it comes to shooting cast bullets, size matters. If they are sized and loaded properly you can shoot cast in Glocks with ZERO leading.

Glock lawyer induced PR people say not to shoot any reloads let alone lead so take that advice for what it's worth.

[PS Paul]

This particular subject has been beaten to DEATH on the forum in the past few years. There IS a LONGGGGG sticky on the subject with facts from those who actually do it successfully.

Glock even restricts RELOADED AMMO under their warranty policy, yet thousands do it daily.

As always, the subject of correct boolit "fit" is what makes a Glock shootable with cast boolits. Most commercially available cast boolits are under-sized, will lead badly and cause the very problems the young man described and that glock warns about.

If you cast yer own, you will have success. I have an employee who I cast for (I'm a generous boss!) and I size the Lee 124 gr. TC tumble-lubed boolit (in a regular Lyman 450 and standard lube, NOT tumbel lube) to .358, same as my revolvers in .357/.38 spl. He shoots it frequently with these boolits and every time out his groups are better than ANY jaxketed bullet he has ever used. And guess what? His gun is still in one piece and NO leading!!

You might take a look at the stickyhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199957-Cast-Boolits-and-Glocks TONS of great info!

Hope this helps.
Paul

[newcastter]

I'm surprised that you've been around here for 2 years and still make that assertion. Glocks are just like every other gun when it comes to shooting cast bullets, size matters. If they are sized and loaded properly you can shoot cast in Glocks with ZERO leading.

Glock lawyer induced PR people say not to shoot any reloads let alone lead so take that advice for what it's worth.

Honestly I was suprised that I have been around for 2 years and this was the first I have ever heard of this.

[newcastter]

This particular subject has been beaten to DEATH on the forum in the past few years. There IS a LONGGGGG sticky on the subject with facts from those who actually do it successfully.

Glock even restricts RELOADED AMMO under their warranty policy, yet thousands do it daily.

As always, the subject of correct boolit "fit" is what makes a Glock shootable with cast boolits. Most commercially available cast boolits are under-sized, will lead badly and cause the very problems the young man described and that glock warns about.

If you cast yer own, you will have success. I have an employee who I cast for (I'm a generous boss!) and I size the Lee 124 gr. TC tumble-lubed boolit (in a regular Lyman 450 and standard lube, NOT tumbel lube) to .358, same as my revolvers in .357/.38 spl. He shoots it frequently with these boolits and every time out his groups are better than ANY jaxketed bullet he has ever used. And guess what? His gun is still in one piece and NO leading!!

You might take a look at the stickyhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199957-Cast-Boolits-and-Glocks TONS of great info!

Hope this helps.
Paul

Will do. Thanks

[randyrat]

Best to just pretend you didn't hear anything when that subject comes up.

I never had a problem with my Glocks (hex, poly and or Oct rifling) I had one fellow tell me they blow up and kill people. I said; Yes that is true,when you point them at people and pull the trigger.

[PS Paul]

Ahhh, don't feel bad. Like many things in the firearms world, lots or rumors, circumspect and wives' tales abound. In this case, it IS provided y the manufacturer as gospel, but we casters do know better!! he he.

[Case Stuffer]

IMO it would take someone with no to very limited exerience to load up a couple of hundred rounds of cast bullets and proceed to shoot them all without checking the barrel for leading but then there are many with little to no experience.

There have indeed been reports of more than a few Gocks being damaged by cast bullets.

I have a SA SubCompact 9mm and guess what Springfield clearly states No Reloads. Here in the USA w live in a Law Suit Hungry society and there are hundres if not thousands of Lawyers eager to take most any case which comes along.

[jmort]

"I'm surprised that you've been around here for 2 years and still make that assertion. Glocks are just like every other gun when it comes to shooting cast bullets."

It is a well known issue, on both sides. I've been aware of the issue for years, but that is not the point. As my post stated, "Many people ignore the manufacturer's warning." Why would any sane business/gun shop tell a customer to ignore the manufacturer's written warning? That is what the O/P reported. If I owned a Glock, I would just get a replacement barrel. Not because people ignore Glock's warning not to shoot non-jacketed bullets, but because some of the replacement barrels have rifling that is more compatible with lead bullets. Nothing more. There are better choices in rifling, but that does not mean you can't cannot do it. The following sums it up well enough:

"The manufacturer Glock advises against using lead bullets (meaning bullets not covered by a copper jacket) in their polygonally rifled barrels, which has led to a widespread belief that polygonal rifling is not compatible with lead bullets. Firearms expert and barrel maker, the late Gale McMillan, has also commented that lead bullets and polygonal rifling are not a good mix. Neither H&K nor Kahr explicitly recommend against lead bullets in their polygonal rifled barrels, suggesting that there might be an additional factor involved in Glock's warning. Kahr's warns that lead bullets can cause additional fouling[8] and recommends special attention to cleaning after their use. While H&K doesn't insist on a copper jacket, at least one well-documented catastrophic incident in an H&K pistol[9] may be related to this issue. Furthermore, Dave Spaulding, well-known gun writer, reported in the February/March 2008 issue of Handguns Magazine that when he queried H&K about their polygonal rifled barrels that they commented: "It has been their experience that polygonal rifling will foul with lead at a greater rate than will conventional rifling."

Again, I would agree that many Glock owners are using lead bullets without any problems. You need to pay attention to leading regardless of what gun you have.

[newcastter]

Actually my accuracy is supurb with the barrel-lead combo.
I do believe I am getting the best results with the Glock and cast boolits as I desire.

[jmort]

As long as you are content, then trying to get better results would burst your bubble of contentment. At close range, none of this matters.

[Jailer]

jmortimer I guess I should have worded my post a bit better. I wasn't trying to be contentious towards you with my comments and if it was taken that way I apologize. It's just that the no lead in Glocks is something that gets spread around most other places as gospel but most who are here do know that it is indeed possible and safe to shoot cast in factory Glock barrels. I've done so with success in both of my Glocks.

But as you said that's something that is up to the individual to decide if they want to go down that path or not. I'm just glad I found this place and was able to use the accumulated knowledge here to forge ahead with success.

[jmort]

I appreciate that. There are many Glock owners shooting lead with good results. The rifling in the Glock lasts a long time and is consistent with Glock's overall, and well deserved, reputation of reliability and longevity. It makes sense with any gun to pay attention to leading. Thanks and God Bless
- John

[fatelk]

It is quite the controversy, but I don't think it's a fact. It is a fact that Glock says not to, but that doesn't mean much to me because I understand the issue beyond their warning.

I guess if I worked in a gun shop and sold someone a Glock or was asked about lead in a Glock, I would point out Glock's warning, then tell them that many people do it quite successfully anyhow, but you really have to know what you are doing because they seem to be much less forgiving of doing it wrong.


As long as you are content, then trying to get better results would burst your bubble of contentment. At close range, none of this matters.
I don't mean to challenge you or be contentious either, but have you tried lead in a Glock to compare the accuracy of an aftermarket vs factory barrel? I shoot plenty of lead in my Glock factory barrels, and am happy with the accuracy at any range. I don't claim to be an expert and I don't shoot competitively so I could be missing something. I don't shoot large quantities either, and my lead loads are light to moderate. I'm a fairly decent pistol shot but far from being really good. I am curious as to how much a better barrel could improve accuracy.

[PS Paul]

I do run a large gun store and people do ask. I tell them exactly what I posted and what most of you comment on: "works for some, despite the warnings. Glock recommends NO reloads and NO lead boolits. If you're an experienced caster, it can be done with great results. If you can only buy hard, undersized commercial cast boolits, best to avoid it. BUT, you definitely tread OUTSIDE of the manufacturer's warranty when doing so" followed then by the usual "safety first" and "use sound judgment" caveat(s).

[jonp]

This is quite interesting to me as I don't own a Glock but do have a few Kahr's. I shoot a great deal of lead, almost exclusively, through my Kahr's and have not noticed any excessive leading with it.

It may be that Kahr has a slightly different type of rifling than Glock but I don't know about this.

[Jupiter7]

This is quite interesting to me as I don't own a Glock but do have a few Kahr's. I shoot a great deal of lead, almost exclusively, through my Kahr's and have not noticed any excessive leading with it.

It may be that Kahr has a slightly different type of rifling than Glock but I don't know about this.

Depends on which kahrs you have. CW and CM are conventional groove barrels. Pm, P models have polygonal. Not sure About all models excep those.

[Shiloh]

This particular subject has been beaten to DEATH on the forum in the past few years. There IS a LONGGGGG sticky on the subject with facts from those who actually do it successfully.

Glock even restricts RELOADED AMMO under their warranty policy, yet thousands do it daily.

Hope this helps.
Paul

Most manufacturers warn against reloaded ammo. Warranty and liability release for the manufacturer.

Shiloh

[6bg6ga]

I do run a large gun store and people do ask. I tell them exactly what I posted and what most of you comment on: "works for some, despite the warnings. Glock recommends NO reloads and NO lead boolits. If you're an experienced caster, it can be done with great results. If you can only buy hard, undersized commercial cast boolits, best to avoid it. BUT, you definitely tread OUTSIDE of the manufacturer's warranty when doing so" followed then by the usual "safety first" and "use sound judgment" caveat(s).

Glock recommends NO RELOADS yet we reload. Glock recommends NO lead. There are horror stories on the web about Glocks blowing up when using lead bullets and yet there are hundreds probably hundreds of thousands of people that shoot lead in their Glocks without any problems. My brother for example has shot thousands of rounds thru his 9mm with no problems. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

[Wayne Smith]

ALL of the major gun manufacturers state that reloads are unsafe. I can't speak for all the smaller manufacturers, some of whom may not be lawyer whipped. This is an attempt to limit their liability given some of the stupid who attempt to reload. Seems that creative lawyers can come up with other potential liability issues. How many manufacturers purposefully make lead friendly guns?

[jonp]

Depends on which kahrs you have. CW and CM are conventional groove barrels. Pm, P models have polygonal. Not sure About all models excep those.

CW, P and K series

[Lloyd Smale]

I shot probably 300 rounds out of my 23 and another 200 out of my 20 this morning and still have my fingers and eyes and theres not enough lead in the barrel to even bother putting a brush to it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I want to interject another point on this topic that we have beaten to death several times.

That is the supposed fact that "Polygonal Rifling" is not good for cast boolits.

Originally Polygonal Rifling was invented specifically FOR cast lead boolits in large caliber rifles to prevent leading.

But lets first discuss what "polygonal" actually means.

The first gun I ever saw with it was an H&K P9S pistol in the late 70's. I quipped to the shop owner that this odd rifling must be new. Where upon he went into the back room and produced a Holland & Holland double rifle in .500 Nitro Express made shortly after the turn of the Century,,, with,,, you guessed it,,, Polygonal Rifling !
The gun was breathtaking!

The shape of the bore was a pentagon with the corners rounded. This is what true Polygonal Rifling looks like. The intention was to not have any sharp edges for lead stick to, and it worked. There is more on this subject in several threads here, and a search will direct you to these threads..

The fact that a boolit starts out round and is "swaged into a polygonal shape" is not too different than being shoved thru regular rifling As long as the boolit is larger than the bore it will form to the bore (obturate) and seal that bore, and all of it will go out the bore with none left behind.

Leading is caused by blow by. IE: the boolit didn't seal the bore (undersized) so gases blew by and melted the outside of the boolit and soldered the remnants to the barrel.

The rifling lands in a Glock Barrel are not square edged like normal rifling they are radiused. The resulting bore profile looks like a circle with scallops or flutes. See pic below for illustration.

This is a loose interpretation of Polygonal Rifling and I personally feel it is inaccurate based on the original profile as created.

The supposed issue here is that the rifling lands in the Glock type of rifling, don't grip a soft lead boolit as well as the square cut grooves of other pistols or aftermarket barrels made for the Glock, and as a result leading occurs.

This has been disproven here many, many, times.

And it has been proven true many, many, times that boolit fit trumps rifling profile as far as leading is concerned.

Glock like many manufacturers doesn't give a ship about your reloading techniques or reloads. They just don't want the problems of blown up guns sent back with your assertions that your reloads are the best thing going, and blamed on them. thus the disclaimer. Most outfits warn about using reloads of any type in their guns for the same reason. They don't want the problems and resulting negative press associated with the subject..

If you blow up a gun it is YOUR Fault! Period. The guns have been proven to be nearly fool proof, however they are not idiot proof and neither is anything else!

WE had a guy at our IDPA shoot a couple of months ago that blew up a brand new Les Baer $3000 1911. He had just started reloading.

One of two things happened. Either he double charged a case,,, or he stuck a boolit with a squib load and then followed it with a loaded round. Either way Les Baer didn't give a ship, and told him so in so many words.

Last I heard he was forking another $2000 over to have the gun rebuilt.

Reloading is an inherently dangerous hobby. It is technical in nature and there is a lot to learn.

Fortunately this is a good place to learn.

It is as safe as YOU make it. Understanding trumps rumors every time!

Randy

[Jailer]

Nice write up. This is what the boolits look like after they have been fired in a Glock barrel.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/230TC453.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/posting%20pics/230TC453.jpg.html)

And this is what they look like if they don't fit and you get skidding and gas cutting at the base.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits5.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits5.jpg.html)

[Epd230]

So, It sounds like both sides of this story are correct.

Shoot an undersized lead bullet in a Glock, polygonal barrel, or any barrel, and you have leading issues. Leading can build up and cause major problems, including destroying the gun and/or shooter.

Shoot a properly sized, lubed lead bullet, and you have no issues.

Problem comes in when a reloader buys commercial lead bullets that are undersized. Or a caster does not take the time to analyze his bullets and properly size the bullet. Leading results and if left unchecked in the barrel, can have a bad result.

Both sides of the issue can claim that they are right and have proof. The devil is in the details.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Problem comes in when a reloader buys commercial lead bullets that are undersized. Or a caster does not take the time to analyze his bullets and properly size the bullet. Leading results and if left unchecked in the barrel, can have a bad result.

So who's fault would this be?

A. the manufacturer of the gun?
B. the manufacturer of the Boolits?
C. the guy who didn't take the time to do it right?
D. God?

If you incorrectly answer this question you need to go away quietly.


Attention to Detail and Personal Responsibility.

Learn it, and live by it!

Randy

[Lefty SRH]

I say answer C! I have shot cast in Glock for YEARS with no troubles! And you know what, I even do it in the super ultra high pressure .40 S&W. I love to live life on the edge.....LOL

[dkf]

Too many people don't understand that size is very important with cast bullets. I see threads all the time on other forums of guys whom try cast in their Glock barrel don't get the desired result and just go and buy an aftermarket barrel. Most cases they are using a "normal" sized bullet from a commercial bullet seller and don't bother trying other sizes.

[Lloyd Smale]

one thing ill add. in my experience it usually is a good idea to run bullets a with a bit harder bhn then you usually do in a revolver. A soft bullet will strip through a glocks rifling. I tend to run bullets at least 12 bhn and preferably 15 in a glock but then i do the same in a 1911 because there rifling is on the shallow side and ive allways gotten better accuracy in both glocks and 1911s with harder lead. Ill also address the size thing. Bigger is not allways better. Two examples lay in this house. MY glock 20 shoots better with .400 bullets then it does with .401 and neither lead any differntly then the other and one of my 500 linebaughs does much better with .511 bullets then 512s and the other does better with 512s. Most here preach bigger is better but its not allways the case.

[finishman2000]

I dropped a lone wolf barrel in my 34 and never looked back. simple.

[Lloyd Smale]

had a wolf barrel for my 20 and the factory barrel shot lead better. Plus the tighter tolarances in the wolf barrel made it alot more finiky as to seating dept and bullet size.

[jmort]

That is the trade-off better lead tolerance with replacement barrel like Lone Wolf or stick with polygonal rifling which is more forgiving. Most Glock users are satisfied with original barrels. Polygonal is not the best choice for accuracy but there are exceptions. The most accurate guns do not have polygonal rifling.

[dondiego]

Lloyd says he was getting better accuracy with the stock barrel.

[EMC45]

I shoot lead in my G36 and it does great. Size them at .452 and let her go. I also shoot lead in the G19. My brother just got one and it shot the Lee 124gr. TC sized at .358 very well with no leading. I tried some of these sized at .356 in my Pastor's G19 and they keyholed. When I get a G19 I will shoot exclusively lead in it due to knowing how well they do.

[Lefty SRH]

I tried 2 LW in 2 of my .40 cal Glocks and they leaded something terrible! I sold them went back to factory barrels and no problems since, and quite accurate!