Filler question

[41 mag fan]

I read the sticky on using fillers and found it to be very informative. The questions i have is when do you feel the need to use a filler and when not to?
I followed the lyman 47th loads on the 322gr cast for my 45-70. I noticed the starting load for required a filler but the max load didn't.
I'd sure appreciate anyone who can pass knowledge along on this subject and maybe even go into depth on it.
thanks for your help!

[oldfart1956]

41, you might want to send a p.m. to Larry Gibson if you don't get a response from him here. He's like the Jedi Master of 45/70 stuff. He's got an excellent post going on right now in the Single Shot Guns forum titled: Loads and techniques for the Trapdoor that you should read. Covers this very topic and much more. And he explains stuff so even I can understand it. And that post isn't just for Trapdoors...it's for any 45/70 as far as I'm concerned. Like yourself I've been very concerned about using fillers from what I've read. He's coaching me. When I read his replys I imagine a short little wrinkly guy...with floppy ears...saying; "Do not fear the dacron...feel the force...do well with it you will." Sunday morning going to launch some 405's with 2400 and dacron! :) Audie...the Oldfart..

[41 mag fan]

HAHAHA...Thanks Audie...I think I feel the force!!! LMAO...I got a good morning Sunday laugh to start my day!!

I'll go into that part of the forum and look. I don't go there as I don't have any single shot guns I play with. I read the sticky on fillers and even printed it out. Between Larry and 35 Remington and some other who posted it was very informative.
I shot some with dacron in it, but i found a load that was not using dacron so far that's blown all other loads away in my groups.
But Thank You again Audie. I appreciate your help on this...and the laugh!!

[Larry Gibson]

41 mag fan

I explain the use of dacron fillers and how I select when to use one and when not to in post #2 in the filler thread. There is a grey area also between the "when to" and the "when not to". Then it depends on the powder used, the weight of the bullet for caliber and the expected velocity level (affects the psi). Good you have a load that does not need a dacron filler....I have quite a few such 45-70 loads also. If you have a specific question regarding the componants you're using I'd be happy to help if I can.

Larry Gibson

BTW; been a "fan" of the 41 magnum myself since the mid '70s.

[41 mag fan]

41 mag fan

I explain the use of dacron fillers and how I select when to use one and when not to in post #2 in the filler thread. There is a grey area also between the "when to" and the "when not to". Then it depends on the powder used, the weight of the bullet for caliber and the expected velocity level (affects the psi). Good you have a load that does not need a dacron filler....I have quite a few such 45-70 loads also. If you have a specific question regarding the componants you're using I'd be happy to help if I can.

Larry Gibson

BTW; been a "fan" of the 41 magnum myself since the mid '70s.

Thank You Larry. I will sure take you up on the help that's for sure! I've found myself very intrigued with the 45-70 since buying (trading) for this NIB Browning 1886.
I've read, reread, and reread your post on fillers and than you so much for posting it. Even printed it off and have the entire thread in my shop.
I guess for starters, this is the first time I've looked at playing with fillers and want to do it right from the beginning and no mistakes made.

One of the questions I have, I see you use it on powder like 5744, 3031 and RL7, which is the powders so far I've playing with in my Browning.
Following Lees manual and Lyman 47th, only till you get into the 322gr boolits does it call for a filler to be used.

But one of many things I was wondering is, is it wise to use a filler where the manual doesn't call for it, when you're at 80% or less cartridge fill?
Even though the Lyman manual only calls for the filler in the 322gr boolits, so far my best to date is using a Ranch Dog 300gr TL boolit with 48gr of 3031. At 49gr it opens up and at 47 gr it's opened up on my groups.
Would it be advisable to use a filler on the RD mold at the lowest starting load and work my way up to med range or 80% case volume?
Thanks Larry for any helpful insight you can give me.
Heres a pic of my group at 50 yrds. There is 5 shots in this group. I tore the paper plate trying to get it off the staples.
Next will be taking it to the range to the 100yrd lane.

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/Photo05191819_zpsf44f9b40.jpg (http://s1140.photobucket.com/user/91msd92/media/Photo05191819_zpsf44f9b40.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

A lot of things can happen to accuracy between 50 and 100 yards....good you are moving to that test distance.

Even though the Lyman manual only calls for the filler in the 322gr boolits, so far my best to date is using a Ranch Dog 300gr TL boolit with 48gr of 3031. At 49gr it opens up and at 47 gr it's opened up on my groups.
Would it be advisable to use a filler on the RD mold at the lowest starting load and work my way up to med range or 80% case volume?

Yes it would. Drop back down to your start load of 3031, use the dacron filler and work back up.

Keep in mind the different "levels" of 45-70 operating psi. With the higher level loads in rifles that can take them you can use more of a given powder with a given bullet weight. That reduces position sensitivety because it fills the case more. I also raises the psi so the powder ignites and burns efficiently. With both the dacron filler may not be needed. With any given powder I use the dacron filler with loadensity less than 80% only when ignition and burning are not where they should be. The dacron filler positions the powder consistently and solves the ignition and burn problems at a lower velocity and psi.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Hmmmm.....Thank You Larry. Alot can be learned from your words of that last paragraph just by reading and also thru trial and error of playing with the loads.
Couple of questions that come to mind.
I've not got a fabric shop anywhere close by, nearest one is 35+ mi away, and an hour to get to. So I went to Walmart and bought a pillow.
My goal here is to find, several different combinations of boolit weights that will work in my Browning and my Marlin when I get it back from the gunsmith.
Mold weights are Ranch Dog 300gr GC, RCBS 305gr GC, Accurate 405gr GC, Accurate 425gr GC, and NOE 425gr PB. All are WFN.
When using a filler, have you tried playing with your OAL as in seating the bullet out, when you are getting good results with a certain powder and bullet combo? Or is this potentially playing with thunder?
If you do play with OAL, do you increase your filler amounts to make up the difference of going to a longer OAL?

[Spokerider]

I use filler for the 45 70 and H322, as per Larry's advice. It works. It helps with velocity consistency. I settle on a desired OAL first, before working up any loads. To do so later, would be just like starting the load work all over again from square one.

I use bulk Dacron like you are using. Pull a tuft, roll it around a little and then weigh it on the scale. I used 1gr of Dacron for my starting loads and as the case began to fill up with powder, I used my judgement on when to reduce the Dacron to .75gr. Knowing how deep the boolit seats, where the powder level is, and how it feels to lightly tamp the Dacron into the case will help you make this call. Yep, I weighed each tuft of Dacron. You get pretty good a judging / grabbing the right amount for the desired weight after a while.

Record you reloading data so you can reproduce the load / results.

[41 mag fan]

I use filler for the 45 70 and H322, as per Larry's advice. It works. It helps with velocity consistency. I settle on a desired OAL first, before working up any loads. To do so later, would be just like starting the load work all over again from square one.

I use bulk Dacron like you are using. Pull a tuft, roll it around a little and then weigh it on the scale. I used 1gr of Dacron for my starting loads and as the case began to fill up with powder, I used my judgement on when to reduce the Dacron to .75gr. Knowing how deep the boolit seats, where the powder level is, and how it feels to lightly tamp the Dacron into the case will help you make this call. Yep, I weighed each tuft of Dacron. You get pretty good a judging / grabbing the right amount for the desired weight after a while.

Record you reloading data so you can reproduce the load / results.

Thanks Spokerider! Ido record, but with using dacron, I'm going to have to record more extensive records.

[Larry Gibson]

The dacron from a pillow or toy works fine and I've used a lot of it. Just is easier for me to use batting is all. You might get a yard or two when you get the chance to try it.

In the lever guns or with heavier recoiling loads where a crimp is needed I generally crimp in the crimp groove or a lube groove and try to keep the lead edge of the driving band just touching or slightly off the leade and of course within magazine length or max oal for the lever guns to feed. I don't adjust the oal to compenstate for load density.

If you are pushing those bullets to top end for the Marlin then there are numerous powders that have sufficient load desity or psi to ignite and burn efficiently w/o the use of the filler. I don't use, nor do I recommend the use of the filler, when it's not necessary.

Larry Gibson

Found Dacron batting at Wally World (WalMart); less than $5 for either bag. One bag will do a gob of cartridges.

72511

[41 mag fan]

On the Marlin, I found Varget gave me some really good groups, but then my Browning came back from a throat job, and I gave the gunsmith my Marlin, as I was not pleased with all the burrs, heavy trigger and rough action. So he's got that one now, and will probably have it for a few more weeks.

I'm going what you said and drop back to the beginning using the 3031 with the Ranch Dog mold with a filler and work my way back up, and see how my groups do.

I find the filler works, then i can drive the 35mi to the range where theres the 100yrd lane. I can only go 50 off my back deck.
All that I've loaded & shot so far has been crimped at crimp groove.

I've got to go back to the ortho Dr next week before surgery, I can stop then and get some from a fabric shop and try it out.

[frnkeore]

One thing that I never hear on these "filler" threads is about the warning in Lymans (lastest) #4 cast bullet Handbook. They seem to think that it can be dangerous to put anything but powder and a bullet inside a cartridge case.

Frank

[Gtek]

I believe there is filler, and then there is filler. Cream of wheat and such (dense filler) changes the pressure game making the powder thinking it has a bigger boolit. Kapok and Dacron are used for powder position, creating the environment for a consistent and correct, smooth pressure rise for the powder used. My 30 WCF and 32-40 breech stuffers sure likes the Kapok. Mr. Gibson, your thoughts? Gtek

[Larry Gibson]

Some are apparently still confused about the difference between a "wad" (previousl used and recommended by Lyman) and a filler.

A wad being something (can be dacron, Kapok, tissue paper, cotten, dryer ling, card disk, etc.) tamped down on the powder leaving an air space between the wad and the base of the bullet.

A filler being something that fills the air space completely between powder and the base of the bullet. It also can be most of the items listed and COW, cornmeal, or poly fill, etc. except tissue paper and the card disk.

Lyman's previous recommendation in previous manuals was the use of a wad. That is what (even if some have a problem with semantics) Lyman now doesn't recommend; the use of wads. Most of us who recommend the use of fillers don't recommend the use of wads either. I don't recommend the use of some fillers either (COW, corn meal or coffee).

Larry Gibson

[Spokerider]

Have you ever thought of "micro balloons" for filler? They are tiny, tiny hollow glass spheres, used to add to epoxy to lighten the mixture for fillet filling or crack filling and ease of sanding. They feel about as light as air and are not cohesive, they flow almost like a liquid when poured.

[Larry Gibson]

They are tiny, tiny hollow glass spheres,

Will they hold up the the pressure and heat of the cartridge firing w/0 leaving a "glass" residue in the barrel? Are they "glass" or "fiberglass"?

Larry Gibson

[Spokerider]

They are actually glass.
Will they hold up to the pressure and heat? I have no idea. I've never tried using them......it's just a maybe-type thought that they may work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_microsphere

[frnkeore]

Please read the #4 Cast Bullet Handbook on page 43 and see what BOTH Lyman AND Mike Venturino say about FILLERS mentioning Dacron directly, as well as other fillers.

My purpose here is to inform you that fillers can be dangerous and that even though people promote there use on this forum, the most prominate cast bullet company and one of the biggest writers and users of cast bullet feel they can be dangerous.

Please be informed, there are TWO sides to using fillers. There are people on this very forum that have damaged their rifles using Dacron fillers in the way Larry and others suggest. Hopefully they'll read this and won't be to intimadated to tell their storys.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Other than you, who claims to have damaged a barrel using a dacron filler the way I describe?

No frank, from your own description of how you damaged your rifle you didn't use the filler the way I suggested. The use of the word "filler" in Lyman's #4 CBH is Mike V's choice and while I know he he knows the difference between a wad and a filler he used the word "filler". His use of "filler" also is contrary to what Lyman has used before. However, there are some "fillers" that I also do not recommend using (Iposted a few above) so Mike may have been using the term generically. Look in Lyman's CBH #3 and previous Lyman manuals and you will find it was "wads" (by the use of the word and by the description of use) that was used. We have been through all of this before.

Yes, some barrels/chambers have been "ringed" by the use of wads (dacron included), by the use of some fillers and by the inappropriate choice and use of certain powders with fillers and wads. Please don't blame me for your own mistakes and inappropriate choices.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

I've used many bags of dacron in bottle necked cases with capacities ranging from 30 grains to those of well over 100 grs, never had a problem or surprise. I've used it in staight walled cases with no problems, but I've used it in the way Larry describes, the correct way.

[plainsman456]

I have used it in 4 different rifles so far but i do not use it with every powder that i use for those rifles.

Sometimes people take things to an extreme,like packing it in the case instead of lightly installing it just to keep the powder in place next to the primer.

[BruceB]

Here's another long-term user of low-density dacron tufts to take up empty space in cartridges.

My round-count with dacron is surely OVER ten thousand now, and none of my rifles have come to any harm whatever. The case volumes run from 6.5x54MS to the .416 Rigby, and ALL of them have benefited to some degree, in some loads, from the use of dacron.

This is another of those cases where "someone" claims "something" , and therefore it MUST be true, right?

Handbooks aren't Bibles, and I will let my own experience be my guide. Larry's findings, incidentally, run a VERY close parallel to mine.

[frnkeore]

Larry says,
"No frank, from your own description of how you damaged your rifle you didn't use the filler the way I suggested."

Please tell me what I said, word for word, Larry. I can guarenty you that you can not!

So you think Mike V. is miss leading people? And you think that Lyman dosen't know what they say? I think you better buy that handbook and read it!

You have told me in the past that just because a loading manual doesn't publish the use of a power that there must be a reason, infering that it's dangerous. Her BOTH Lyman and Mike V. say you shouldn't use it and you totally discount their warnings.

If you promote it's use, you should also tell people that it could be a problem. It's just ethical.

Frank

[41 mag fan]

Wasn't that the Lyman manual where there was alot of misprints and misinformation. If I'm correct, then how can you believe the manual?

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Once again you are arguing by answering a question with a question. You did in fact explain the load you used to damage (ring) a rifle of yours. I believe it may have been in the 8x57 thread we discussed all this in some time back. I'm not interested in wasting more time with you hashing it all out again. You can do the "search" if you want to find out what you said or you can tell us again the load you used and we will go from there.......again.........

No, you are assuming something that isn't there regarding the current Lyman CBH and what Mike V said. You know what "assume" will get you.......Mike is not missleading anyone. Nor is Lyman printing wrong information. Some people, like you for instance, apparently are mislead by not understanding what is read or by reading something into it that isn't there. I do not know what Mike meant exactly by his choice of "filler" instead of "wad" (the term that Lyman has always previously used), do you know what Mike meant or are you just "assuming"?

that just because a loading manual doesn't publish the use of a power that there must be a reason, infering that it's dangerous.

Give us a break here; I did not "infer" that at all. I said a reason a powder MIGHT not be listed could be because it was dangerous.....among other reasons. You claimed a powder to be safe that was not listed and several of us disagreed and pointed out potential problems. I even pressure tested the loads and showed how easily pressures could and indeed did spike with the powder, bullet and cartridge combination you recommended. You couldn't man up and admit maybe we were correct and the non listed powder may not have been a good choice. Everyone knows you have a grudge here with me and that is fine, try a PM sometime if you want to.

I do not discount Lyman's nor Mike V's warnings. I disagree with part of that warning but have posted in this thread and in my post on the "filler" sticky what fillers I do not recommend and that I do not use wads of, dacron or any other type of material and do not recommend their use. What I do tell everyone is when it is appropriate to use a dacron filler and when it is not appropriate. You fail to read what I write, to understand what I write (everyone else doesn't have a problem understanding) or is the grudge blinding you?

Perhaps it would be "ethical" to you if I did research your load where you damaged and ruined a barrel (ringed the chamber if I remember correctly) and used that as a prime example/warning of how YOU did not do as I said and damaged your rifle.............If we stop and think about it shooting is inherently dangerous. That is why we have rules and safety procedures to follow when reloading. Don't follow those rules and safety precautions and you or your firearm may be damaged. You failed to follow the rules and safety precautions and you damaged your rifle. Man up to whose fault that really was, learn the lesson and lets move on to more enjoyable discussions.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Wasn't that the Lyman manual where there was alot of misprints and misinformation. If I'm correct, then how can you believe the manual?

No, that was a Speer manual (several issues back) and dealt with jacketed bullets not cast bullets. There were only a couple errors (loads too hot) involving a couple powders.

Lyman's data has been quite reliable over the years but even Lyman has toned down some loads with the advent of peizo-transducer and strain gauge technolgy to better measure the complete time pressure curves. The data where pressures are listed in newer manuals as "PSI" reflect the new testing. More and more of Lyman's data will be retested and published as "PSI". I expect we will see some powders dropped and some data changed as a more complete time pressure curve is measured in the cartridges listed in the manuals. The powders may be dropped because they are "dangerous" as in potential for pressure spikes or for S.E.E. or they may be dropped for numerous other reasons. The data (charge weights for specific bullets) may also go up or down as the more complete time-pressure curve is observed instead of just the statice peak psi as measured by C.U.P.

I do have numerous Lyman Manuals and I do read them and often refer to them.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Larry, I thought it was their latest manual they came out with. But I could be wrong, maybe it was Speer.
Got a question though, I started out my loads again of the 3031. I made it to the 46gr loads and had to quit due to rain. One thing though I noticed, all fired brass have a partial burr on the case rim.
Could this be from the filler, or maybe due to me using GC boolits?
Loads were loaded to an OAL of 2.200, which is right on the upper part of the crimp groove.
Boolits sized to .459, will slip into a fired case. Boolits unsized at .460 will fit to the crimp groove, then to get them further you'd have to lightly pound on them.
What I did do, was found I can load a 425 WFN and load it out to a length of 2.254 and not hit rifling. At 2.255 I hit rifling, just enough to cause a little hampering in cycling the leaver closed. From there on it steadily get harder to close.
Any help or thoughts on this I would appreciate immensley.

[frnkeore]

Larry's pysco babbling will not change the facts. I offered a load in a 8x57 thread, Larry and others swore that it was dangerous, Larry tested the exact load and found that it was indeed a low pressure SAFE load with NO pressure spikes what so ever, PERIOD! Man up Larry and tell the truth! Show us the results of that test. You have it!!!

Regarding my barrel, he said that what I did was not safe, it's his duty and obligation to prove what he says not me!

Regarding the obsurd accusation that Lyman and Mike V. are not to be believed but, only in part. I guess that makes him the authority on cast bullet OVER ALL others!!!

Guy's, all i'm asking here is since there are OFFICAL warnings in print about this proceedure that you let people know that it can be danerous. Do as you wish with your own equipment but, be please tell people the truth.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

41 mag fan

A burr on the case rim would not have anything to do with GC' bullets; would have to be caused during feeding from the magazine, on the bolt closing and extractor snapping ofver the rim or from the extractor or ejector on extraction/ejection.

If you menat on the rime of the case mouth I would more suspect it's hitting something on extraction ejection rather than from GCs. However, what kind of GCs are you using?

I think I'd be more comfortable with the .459 sizing to stay away from potential bolt not closing problems.

As to oal; do both lengths feed reliably? If so then it's a matter of which length is the more accurate where the case mouth is actually crimped into a groove.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Larry, Sorry I left out it's the case rims mouth. My mistake for not having clarity. The burrs are actually on the inside, and there's even lube on the mouths rim. Over crimping? I'm thinking of backing off the crimp and see on my next loads how that goes. I didn't think I had much crimp on it, maybe I'm mistaken.

GC'S are Hornady's. I've got aluminum GC's I thought about trying out too. I'm just trying to use up the Hornady's first.

[Larry Gibson]

41 mag fan

Probably from the "over crimp" as you mention. Do you camfer the inside of the case mouts at all? A light camfer might give less for the GC to catch on.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

Does this mean you want to be one of my "Friends and Contacts"? Be glad to have you as such and then we can keep this absurd discussion just between us, ok?

Unfortunately you are insinuating some of us are untruthful........which is not the case. I have, as have most everyone here have, post warnings about the proper use of fillers and have discussed the potential dangers. The test results you asked for were posted in the 8x57 thread BTW. That is where your heartburn with me comes from. I already met my "obligation" and you were proved wrong. Be best if you just accepted that we moved on to other topics.

Let me ask you several questions specifically regarding your reloading, the use of reloads and your use of reloading manuals;

Have ever fired a reload in any firearm where the use of reloaded ammuntion is not recommended and will void a warrenty? Those meet your standards of "OFFICAL warnings in print" don't they.

Have you ever used a powder not listed in a manual (you already have admitted to that). The manuals warn not to do that also.

Have you ever gone above or below the "start or maximum" listed load with your own loads? Those manuals all warn not to so also and thus, by your defintion, are also "OFFICIAL warnings in print".

We all know you will have to answer "yes" to all the questions. Probably a lot of us will have to answer yes to all those questions too.

So we see that while we both, along with most others here on the CBF, may disagree with the manuals "OFFICIAL warnings in print" we are not telling anyone those warnings "are not to be believed". As a matter of fact many of us have had extensive conversation/threads about "going outside the box" so to speak and the potential consequences of such.

Mike V. used to post quite regularly here and I most often agreed with him. However, he was taken to task by numerous members here who disagreed with him quite vehemently and did in fact question his veracity (that is politely saying they insinuated Mike V was full of it and "not to be believed"). I was not one who thinks he is "not to be believed" even though I did occasional disagree with with him. I am saddened that Mike V. has not returned to this forum.

So one last question;

Since the disagreement was over what Mike V. had printed in magazines and Lyman's CBH #4, your "OFFICIAL warnings in print", does that all memebrs here made"obsurd accusation(s) that Lyman and Mike V. are not to be believed"?

BTW; I find Gavascon works well for heartburn as does the "ignore" button if you don't like my posts.

Larry Gibson

One last thing frank; you might read this thread and take a lesson from the OP, he admitted his mistake; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200097-Lee-457-405-F-and-RL7

[swheeler]

I think BEANO may help too!
In Frank's case X-Lax may be called for also;)

[roysha]

Larry:

I hate to interupt the pizzzing match between you and Frank (what is it with the name Frank?) but I have a specific question about a specific load for a specific cartridge I would like you to answer for me if you wouldn't mind. I respect your knowledge on this subject and will follow whatever you may suggest because I for sure haven't a clue otherwise.

I am loading 43 grains of 3031 in a 358 Norma Mag cartridge with the Lyman 358009 bullet cast VERY hard and GCed. I have been using a 1 grain (weighed) wad/filler/chunk/whatever you want to call it, of poly-fill, pushed in just enough to hold the powder in place, not tamped down or other wise compacted. The base of the bullet contacts the poly-fill when seated but doesn't compact it more, just touches it. As you know the Norma case holds a heck of a lot more powder than 43 grains so there is a great lot of air space, therefore the reason for the poly-fill. It holds the powder in place, even under recoil after 5 shots. I pulled the bullet from a cartridge that I had left in the magazine for that purpose.

This load has only been tested at 50 yards because I wanted to be sure I could hit the target. I have had some cast loads so bad that I couldn't keep them on the paper at 100 yards, therefore the reason for the 50 yard initial test. Very accurate at that range.

Anyway, my question is this; am I OK doing what I'm doing in regard to the poly-fill or not?

[Larry Gibson]

roysha

Oh please do interupt, I need the break[smilie=l:

I have not worked with the 358 Norma Mag in a long time (was a converted M1917) and the only cast I tried in it was the 358315. That is a good cartridge and the much heavier cast bullet (358009) you are using puts you in uncharted territory with little data to go by. Thus I will defer to anyone who has any tested data and/or more experience with the 358 Norma Mag and that heavy a cast bullet, anyone?

Having said that lets discuss your questions. 3031 is on the faster side of the medium burning powders. I see nothing wrong with your load of 43 gr with the dacron filler under that heavy (290 +/- gr?) cast bullet. The "very accurate" at 50 yards holds promiss for it obviously. Yes you are doing just fine with the dacron filler and 3031 is well with in the powder range that ir recommend the use of the dacron filler with, especially in that large case.

A few quick questions;

Did you work up to that load? If so then start and max?

If worked up was it the max you worked up to or the "accuracy" load?

Have you chonographed that load?

Have you considered a slower powder such as 4350, RL19, H4931SC or RL22? I realize powder availability is "iffy" these days but a slower powder would use up more of the cavernous air space and give a gentler push to the heavy bullet.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Apparently some think I am the one who came up with the idea of fillers. That couldn't be farther from the truth as fillers and wads have been around and used for many years before I started reloading with cast bullets. I take no credit for the concept of using Dacron as a filler. Back when I started using cast bullets in the 30-30, .308W and the '06 I was using the old Ideal graphite lube and a couple other "concoctions" that were supposed to be the bee's knee's. Then along came the NRA 50/50 formula and Javelina was one of the 1st, if not the 1st, to manufacture it commercially. I got some and immediately had superior results in accuracy and no leading. My 1st introduction to Dacron as a filler was the notice on the lube wax paper wrapper that for 25 cents plus the wrapper they would send sufficient Dacron for "many loads". I sent a couple wrappers off with 50 cents and got 2 of the lube boxes stuffed with lots of Dacron. I didn't have a clue I could have got it in a fabric store.

Somewhere along the line I learned it was available in bags full as "stuffing" in the fabric store and then I learned from my current wife about it also being "batting". Also along the way there have been numerous articles in gun magazines, books and loading manuals on using wads and fillers. For a short while I used the Dacron as a wad. I discovered that with rounds in the magazine of a rifle with recoil many times the wad would come loose and powder would migrate around the wad. A hang fire many times was the result along with poor accuracy from those rounds. I did enough testing and pulled enough bullets to prove this. Thus I changed from a wad to the Dacron filler. I have not had the migrating/hang fire problem since.

I also have tried numerous other fillers but always came back to Dacron because it works w/o many of the problems some of the other fillers gave. Also there have been enough documented cases of ringed or otherwise damaged chambers from the use of wads. There have been a few documented cases of ringing with a Dacron wad or when the wrong powder was used with a Dacron filler. I have revisited my method of loading and using the Dacron filler and through extensive testing, including pressure testing, have come to the recommendations I make. As with many things we do if we do them wrong there can be serious consequences. The Dacron filler when used correctly offers many benefits and little risk, at least none found so far with extensive use and testing.

The photos show a couple boxes of Javelina lube I still had around that show the use of the Dacron filler. You can note the cost increased to 50 cents with the box tab for a bunch of Dacron (75 cents w/o the box tab). I post this merely to show some that there is/was "official documentation" recommending it's use......so which is right? Me, I'll continue to use and recommend a Dacron filler where appropriate with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

71551

[41 mag fan]

Larry ...I understand you getting a little irritated here, as I would to if someone kept harassing me like it has happened to you on this thread.
We all know that reloading and guns can carry a margin of error and risk, and we takes these risks at our own acknowledgements.
I know there's a margin of risk involved using a filler, and after weighing the options I reached out on here to learn more about them.
So far, you have and even in your sticky erred everyone on the side of caution of using a filler, and that not all times is it wise to use one.
I understand this, and after careful consideration of your warnings and guidance, if I ringed my barrel, then there's noone else to blame but me. You didn't load them loads up, for me or anyone else. If anyones to blame, it's the person whose barrel that is ringed.
They didn't have to load them rounds, they could of stuck with what they had.
It's just like taking loads "out of the box"....something happens, no one to blame but the person who loaded them rounds "out of the box".
But onto the question you asked.
The brass I have fired with the filler, was trimmed back to minimum specs, and chamfered. I checked each one and there was no burrs prior to loading.
I did do a pound cast, and came up with the throat being a .460. So I'm going to try some as cast, and see how they do before using a filler again.If not any better, then I will proceed from there and retry my loads with a filler.

[swheeler]

Apparently some think I am the one who came up with the idea of fillers. That couldn't be farther from the truth as fillers and wads have been around and used for many years before I started reloading with cast bullets. I take no credit for the concept of using Dacron as a filler. Back when I started using cast bullets in the 30-30, .308W and the '06 I was using the old Ideal graphite lube and a couple other "concoctions" that were supposed to be the bee's knee's. Then along came the NRA 50/50 formula and Javelina was one of the 1st, if not the 1st, to manufacture it commercially. I got some and immediately had superior results in accuracy and no leading. My 1st introduction to Dacron as a filler was the notice on the lube wax paper wrapper that for 25 cents plus the wrapper they would send sufficient Dacron for "many loads". I sent a couple wrappers off with 50 cents and got 2 of the lube boxes stuffed with lots of Dacron. I didn't have a clue I could have got it in a fabric store.

Somewhere along the line I learned it was available in bags full as "stuffing" in the fabric store and then I learned from my current wife about it also being "batting". Also along the way there have been numerous articles in gun magazines, books and loading manuals on using wads and fillers. For a short while I used the Dacron as a wad. I discovered that with rounds in the magazine of a rifle with recoil many times the wad would come loose and powder would migrate around the wad. A hang fire many times was the result along with poor accuracy from those rounds. I did enough testing and pulled enough bullets to prove this. Thus I changed from a wad to the Dacron filler. I have not had the migrating/hang fire problem since.

I also have tried numerous other fillers but always came back to Dacron because it works w/o many of the problems some of the other fillers gave. Also there have been enough documented cases of ringed or otherwise damaged chambers from the use of wads. There have been a few documented cases of ringing with a Dacron wad or when the wrong powder was used with a Dacron filler. I have revisited my method of loading and using the Dacron filler and through extensive testing, including pressure testing, have come to the recommendations I make. As with many things we do if we do them wrong there can be serious consequences. The Dacron filler when used correctly offers many benefits and little risk, at least none found so far with extensive use and testing.

The photos show a couple boxes of Javelina lube I still had around that show the use of the Dacron filler. You can note the cost increased to 50 cents with the box tab for a bunch of Dacron (75 cents w/o the box tab). I post this merely to show some that there is/was "official documentation" recommending it's use......so which is right? Me, I'll continue to use and recommend a Dacron filler where appropriate with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

71551

Thanks Larry, you've never steered me wrong, asked me to lie(which I won't do) or told me ****e don't stink, I appreciate that. Filler up buttercup.

[Green Lizzard]

it may or may not be helpfull to the ongoing flap over fillers, but i have been using them since long before the internet or even my first lyman manual in many cals. and guns, and my experence is the same as larrys. i even use a walters wad on base of plainbase bullets with straight wall cases

[frnkeore]

Frank, et all

I conducted my test today. Based on Frank’s recommendation to the OP to use “15 – 18 gr 296/H110” with a cast bullet of 160 gr or more I used a 190 gr bullet (GB mould), WW cases and WLR cases. I loaded a test series of 15 gr, 17 gr and based on Frank’s last test; 19 gr of H110 (added by me. I DID NOT RECOMMENED 19.0 gr) . These were tested in my M24/47 M98 Mauser with a 6X Leupold scope. Velocity and pressure data was via an Oehler m43 PBL. Target data was from 100 yards with 10 shot test groups.

The 15 and 17 gr loads were very mild with very little case obturation even though the cases were fire formed and only NS’d. There was considerable smudge all over the cases back to the expansion ring. The 15 gr load clocked 1319 fps at 17,400 psi. The velocity SD was 15 and the ES was 41. No indication in the data or the pressure trace of any spiking. The psi ES was 2,300 psi. The accuracy was non descript with 9 shots going into 1.8” but the 2nd shot fell out the bottom making it a 3.85” group.

The 17 gr load also was fairly nondescript with the velocity at 1452 fps at 20,300 psi. The velocity SD was 14 and the ES was 52. The psi ES was again 2,300 psi even though the average psi was higher. Again there was no indication of pressure spiking. Accuracy began to deteriorate with the 10 shot group displaying vertical stringing with it’s 2.41 wide by 4.225” high group. The pressure traces uneven burn after peak psi was reached. This is probably indicative of powder position sensitivity given the small loading density of 29% with this charge of H110 in the 8x57 case.

The above was copied directly from the thread here on Cast Boolits in responce to my suggestion of loading data for the 8x57.

I'm afraid that it's not what Larry says about it now and that makes his responce to me, regarding what he says above above what? _____________ you fill in the blank. You can not change history and the above post is history here in this forum.

This is just one instance of Larry trying to make something that is not!

I'm not here to attack Larry, I'm here to inform. Larry thinks that ANYONE that disagrees with him is attacking him. I think that's called paraonia. He has with out fail tried to put me down if I post anything that he disagrees with.

Ask yourself why after many years that a company would change it's stance on a proceedure when they don't have to? Then ask yourself could it have been because over the years that there were enough credible reports of promlems occuring that they had to?

Frank

[41 mag fan]

Frank, You've informed plenty here. Please move on.
I didn't start this thread to have it become a pis*ing match. I started this thread to learn, and for other members to learn.
I realize there is a safety risk to this, and for that matter to reloading period. I've been reloading for 23+ yrs now and do know simple little things can lead to major mistakes.
I do realize, taking internet recommendations is a risk, as it says in this forum, to use loads listed at your own risk.
I went out into the shop and read that paragraph on page 43, about Lyman and Mike V not recommending the use of fillers.
It's pretty easy to see and understand why.....I bet if you talked to Lymans lawyers you'd know exactly what i realized right off te bat.

For example....You ringed your barrel. You followed what the manual said, used Dacron, was lets say up to 1gr away from max load.
In todays world...Lyman just left themselves open to a lawsuit. If lets say 100 people ringed their barrels, they left themselves open to a major lawsuit.
But in your instance, it's easy to see why you ringed your barrel. You had an air pocket between the filler and the base of your bullet. Reason being why Lyman and Mike V dropped the use of fillers in the manual.
So please, add some good things to this thread, instead of attacking Larry. Yes your warning are heeded, and thats good there is warnings from fellow members in this. Otherwise, I'll be forced to drop a thread, I'm hoping members like myself can learn from, and go to pming Larry instead, which will do no member any good then.

[roysha]

Larry:

Well, this is a bit embarrassing to say the least. However, I will lay it off to the fact I had a bit of a health issue early last year and to a fellow that has been healthy and bull strong for 68 of 69 years, it was a bit traumatic to say the least!

Anyway, after getting out of the hospital I had to spend time pretty much sitting on my butt doing nothing till things healed up enough to be able to do stuff. What better place to do that than sit in front of the pooter and diligently peruse CASTBOOLITS.

I had built the 358 Norma specifically to shoot cast bullets and was happy to find a fellow here that had an NOE 358009 mold from a previous group buy that he wanted to sell. Just about the time I got things going in a more or less straight line, I was interrupted by my stay in the hospital.

As you stated, data for the heavy cast bullets is rather thin so I posted the information request here. Would you like to guess who responded, among others, and whose advice I took? Yup. It was you. I printed out the response and put it in my load data book and proceeded to load the ammo using the suggested components and method. Then I promptly forgot everything. When I saw the thread about the filler, I just jumped in without even going back to my records to check anything. I only did that after you asked where I got the data for my load. I well and truly feel stupid, but that is certainly not a new feeling for me.

The following is the response you posted to my question regarding load data for the heavy bullet.

"I'm going to offer some help based on load data from a previous 46th Edition Lyman manual, not based on personal experience.

For the 35 Whelen with the 358009 bullet of 280 gr they list a starting load with 3031 of 39 gr. The max for 3031 is listed as 48.5 gr. If I was going to use 3031 (probably not a bad choice) for that bullet in the 358 Norma I would start at 43 gr and use a 3/4 - 1 gr dacron filler. I would work up in 2 gr increments using 5 shot groups until I reached the target velocity of 1900 - 2000 fps chronographing the test strings. Selecting and acceptable load from that velocity range (if there is one, probably will be) I would then tweek the load +/- 1 gr in both directions and shoot 10 shot test strings to determine accuracy and internal ballistic consistency.

However, my choice of powders would be H4895. I would start at 44 gr, use the same 3/4 1 gr dacron filler and complete the testing as above.

That's how I would develop a load for that heavy cast bullet in the 358 Norma Magnum."

As far as using slower powders such as you suggested in your earlier response to my post in this thread, I guess I will try something later (probably 4831 [in my growing up years known as idiot proof, or IP powder] after I have tested this 3031 load a bit further for accuracy and velocity. At this point I'm very pleased with the load so I'm leaning towards, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[Larry Gibson]

roysha

Not a lot of difference there in my posts excepth the additional suggestion to use the slower burning powders. Not sure why (don't recall specifically) I didn't suggest that in the 1st post. Can't think of everything I guess and contrary to you know who's idea I am not an expert on everything here. To bad he didn't quote the conclusion of my test as he might have learned something from it but I'm not concerned about it.

Back to your 358 Norma Mag; sorry about your health issues. Are you going to be able to shoot those heavy cast bullets at higher velocity? Should we be codgitating (SP?) on light loads or perhaps a ligher bullet?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

41 mag fan

Well those burrs have got me stumped them. Only thing else I can think of is to extract the next fired cases real slow and see if they aren't getting dinged on the way out.

Appreciate the support BTW. If you want to try some dacron batting PM me your address and I'll mail you some.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

You're welcome for the support Larry. I just get really tired of people harassing others like yourself, over something that they loaded up and shot. It wasn't you loaded it up, sent it to them, they shot it and ringed their barrel. That might be different story totally there.
But it's also good to have the heeded warnings, but once or twice on the same thing is plenty if you ask me.
Now if the subject moved into a deeper level, then more warnings of what could or what might, then yes they would be welcome to.
Warnings are good, when they are needed, not used as an excuse to attack, berate, or belittle fellow members.

I appreciate your offer on the batting. Right now, I'm pretty sure I'll be getting some Wednesday as we will be in Evansville. I've got to have more knee surgery, ACL replaced or repaired, Hamstring ligaments repaired, synovitis(SP?) taken care of and inflamation (scar tissue) cut out from my last surgery back in Dec.
So while I'm under the knife, I got a wife with nothing else better to do, besides wait on me to wake up, that just loves the opportunity to spend my money from my account!
But if something happens and i can't get it I will take you up on the offer.

One thing that got me to thinking. After going back and looking at the 20 pcs of fired brass, not all have burrs....only thing I can think of is that I missed some pcs to chamfer.
But what I'm going to do is go back, disassemble what I have left, check the cases for burrs, and start over but after this pound cast I made, I can get by with a .460. So I can use as cast. Might be late this week or early next before i can hobble to the shop out in the garage, but I'll get them loaded!!

[Larry Gibson]

Good luck on surgery, get back to us when you can. Tell the wife I suggest batting about 5/8 - 3/4" thick. The larger fabric stores many times will have several thickness. Any will do but that's the thickness that works best for me.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Larry. I'm sure like last Dec, 3 hrs after surgery I'll be back on here. I'll remember the thickness of the batting. We've got several fabric stores down in Evansville. City of 150,000 they have alot of everything.

[zomby woof]

I use #8 and #10 flat batting.

[roysha]

Larry:

Thank you for the kind words in regard to my health. Fortunately, I am back to wrestling calves and throwing bales pretty much like before, just a little slower and not for as long at a time. Oh well, I guess it catches up to us all, sooner or later. LIFE IS GOOD!

The recoil will not be an issue other than the fact I just don't like it. Ergo, the Caldwell Lead Sled, a joyous and wonderful invention. Prior to it, I just put full 25# shot bag between me and whatever I thought might hurt. It worked, but could be a bit awkward.

This 358 NM is a bit of a nostalgia trip since this was my 1st magnum caliber rifle. I built it in 1968 at gunsmith school.

My wife makes reproduction antique porcelain dolls and has several 5 pound boxes of poly fill that she uses to fill the leather or cloth bodies of some of the dolls. At 1 grain per round I suspect I have pretty much a life time supply. If I run out of new stuff in the boxes I guess I can sneak some out of a doll body.[smilie=1:

[Green Lizzard]

my .348 win was dinging them up on the way out at the edge of the extractor cut

[41 mag fan]

Larry, Got my bedding yesterday. I believe it's 3/4" thick. Wife got what she could quickly as she wanted to get back to the hospital. I also picked up a nifty little set of tools from Harbor Freight for punching holes. Credit goes to Jim on here for letting me know about this is what he uses.
I also got a 5lb bale of Kapok coming also. Credit to Jim here again, he pm'ed me his article he wrote on it awhile back. I owe Jim many thanks, he's been a good friend over the years.
But back to my thoughts.
I tried some loads using the dacron, but I'm finding out from help from geargnasher and runfiverun, many thanks to those two fellas also, but I've got a steep throat, a lot of clearance on my chamber for the brass, and still a short throat.
But gear and run ran me thru some pound cast tests, helping me to see more of what i got to play with and can play with.
But loading the 300gr Ranch Dog casts at .459, with what i had left using my dacron and 46, 47 & 48gr of 3031, I placed 1 wrap of tape around the case just a hair off the case mouth, to help center up the case in the chamber and to help start the boolit out more straight in the barrel.
My barrel was clean due to the pound cast, 46gr was horrible, trying to foul the barrel 3+" group.
47gr I had 1 flyer....da*n buffalo gnat right up the nose, just as I pulled the trigger....thankfully yesterdays heat is killing them off!!, but minus the flyer using my calipers I got 4 shots at 1.70ish "
I'd have to look at my targets to get the ish part of my readings.
48gr...real nice....again 1.010ish ".
So between several things going on with the Browning I think things will really start pulling together, and my groups will become what I'd call an amazement to me.
But I wanted to give you an update on my findings from Tuesday evening, i'm hoping to be able to hobble out to the shop today, and do some more fiddling, maybe by tomorrow I'll be able to test more loads!!

One other note...I'm beginning to think, with the chamber clearance I have, my boolits might be getting started a little crooked, which is causing the brass to be burred. Hence the tape also, and with my loads it was still there, but not as bad. More testing to come!!




my .348 win was dinging them up on the way out at the edge of the extractor cut

My Marlin 45-70 was doing the same thing on my case heads as it extracted them. Lots of burrs on this Remlin. It's at the gunsmiths getting slicked up right now

[leadman]

I would not use Mike V. as an expert on all cast boolit shooting. He loads his BPCRs with black and all his rifles get 5744. He admits he gets unburned powder with 5744 but says he does not care as the accuracy meets his standards. I feel this limits the scope of his knowledge concerning the other powders and loads that we discuss frequently. Also his visits here became infrequent around the time the new Lyman Cast Bullet manual was released IIRC. Some of the information in this manual looks very similar to what has been posted here.
Not saying Mike does not have knowledge but if you read his magazine articles it is pretty easy to closely guess what powder and boolits will be used in the firearm(s) he is writing about.

[Green Lizzard]

he also just uses linotype (who can afford that)

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Bill for your post!! Sadly around here we can't use rifles for deer, unless it's a 500 smith or lower caliber to the 357mag. Basically pistol calibers in rifles is all thats legal.



I would not use Mike V. as an expert on all cast boolit shooting. He loads his BPCRs with black and all his rifles get 5744. He admits he gets unburned powder with 5744 but says he does not care as the accuracy meets his standards. I feel this limits the scope of his knowledge concerning the other powders and loads that we discuss frequently. Also his visits here became infrequent around the time the new Lyman Cast Bullet manual was released IIRC. Some of the information in this manual looks very similar to what has been posted here.
Not saying Mike does not have knowledge but if you read his magazine articles it is pretty easy to closely guess what powder and boolits will be used in the firearm(s) he is writing about.

I quit reading the gun mags to an extent. Reason being, is way back they used to show skepticism and would tear a gun down and do some "real" testing with them, and if needed give a bad review if it wanrranted. It's slowly moved to liberal standards of " we don't want to hurt anyones feelings by giving a bad review".

[Larry Gibson]

41 mag fan

Glad to see it is coming together for you.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Larry...Forgot to mention in my earlier post, Jim did send me his article he wrote on Kapok from awhile back. I've ordered 5 lbs of it, since reading the article, so it looks like I'll play with it too.
Whats your thoughts and experiences on Kapok vs dacron?

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Bill, my tests years ago showed the dacron filler was superior to kapok accuracy wise. I found the more kapok used the less the accuracy, especially in bottle necked cases. It is denser and in bottle necked cases requires more psi and comression to get it into the bore. The more kapok there is the higher the psi (based on velocity - I haven't pressure tested it). In smaller caliber cases the dacron goes into the case mouths a whole lot easier. I will note that as I recall there wasn't much difference in the 45-70 between them.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Basically it's better used in straight wall cases then, where you haven't got the constriction of the bottelneck?

[Outpost75]

If a powder requires addition of aspace filler to obtain acceptable ballistic uniformity, then it is not suited for those conditions of loading. I've shot thousands of rounds of low velocity small game and gallery loads in cartridges from the 7.62x39 to .375 H&H using Alliant Bullseye with standard primers and no fillers. Proven loads with standard-weight for the caliber, using soft, cast lead lubricated bullets, are 5 grs. in the .3030, 6 grs. in the Krag, or .303 British, 7 grs. in the. 308 Win., 7.5 grs. in the. 30-'06, ten grs. in the. 300 H&H ans 12 grs. in the. 375 H&H.

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Bill for the post. I ordered 5 lbs of it, and am wondering if maybe I made a bad choice. I'm sure Kapok does have a useful part in reloading though.

[Larry Gibson]

If a powder requires addition of aspace filler to obtain acceptable ballistic uniformity, then it is not suited for those conditions of loading. I've shot thousands of rounds of low velocity small game and gallery loads in cartridges from the 7.62x39 to .375 H&H using Alliant Bullseye with standard primers and no fillers. Proven loads with standard-weight for the caliber, using soft, cast lead lubricated bullets, are 5 grs. in the .3030, 6 grs. in the Krag, or .303 British, 7 grs. in the. 308 Win., 7.5 grs. in the. 30-'06, ten grs. in the. 300 H&H ans 12 grs. in the. 375 H&H.

Appreciate the input however, most of us who use dacron fillers have shot such loads similar to yours for years also. I think if you search you will find I recommend a 90 - 100 gr cast on .30 - .31 cal rifles over 2.7 or 3.2 gr Bullseye (depending on volume of case) a lot.

It's when wanting something more than low velocity small game and gallery loads for longer range target ar for hunting bigger game that the use of medium and slow burning powders is necessitated. If the load density is less than 80% ignition and powder position problems can easily arise. Hence the need for and use of a proper filler.

Larry Gibson

[41 mag fan]

Ya Marlin...ask your question on here as I'd like to see the answers. i've been learning about fillers and hoping other members who are in question can learn something from this too.

[Marlin Junky]

Ya Marlin...ask your question on here as I'd like to see the answers. i've been learning about fillers and hoping other members who are in question can learn something from this too.


How much Dacron is too much?

I'm trying to use WC-820 in my 358 with .360" RCBS 35-200-FN (208+ bare weight/BHN 15-16 after aging) and am thinking a little better burn might tighten the groups somewhat. I've gone to 21 grains and the accuracy seems to be going downhill at 1700-1750fps with this boolit hardness and my 1:12" M77 (cases are still smokey at this level). 20 grains seemed to show promise but flyers made one hole groups out of the question.

So anyway, I'm thinking about trying 19 grains of WC-820 and approximately a full grain (or whatever it takes to boost the pressure a bit and hold the powder in place) of Dacron to keep this extremely fine grained powder in place. Velocity goal is in the 1650fps neighborhood.

BTW, WC-820 proved to be a good powder in the 30-30 with 16.0-16.5 grains and no filler under RCBS 30-180-FN (circa 1650fps)

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

Try 3/4 gr Dacron and increase it 1/4 gr at a time until the WC-820 no longer migrates. That will be enough. I've not used WC-820 with reduced cast bullet loads but I have worked with other fine grained ball powders. I think you find enough to be in the 3/4 to 1 1/4 gr range.

Larry Gibson

(Also posted on your original thread)

[Green Lizzard]

in my test with bullets nose down in the box it always filtered through no matter how much i used, it is just too fine the batch i have is almost like dust

[Marlin Junky]

in my test with bullets nose down in the box it always filtered through no matter how much i used, it is just too fine the batch i have is almost like dust

All the batches of #9/820 are like dust... that's why they meter so well. However, if the Dacron is compressed enough, the powder shouldn't migrate too badly as long as the ammo isn't handled roughly.

So how much did you use and in what cartridge case?

Personally, I'd rather not use filler of any kind; however, I've got a bunch of WC-820 that I want to use and I don't cast for handguns anymore. If I can't get it to work in the 358W with RCBS 35-200-FN, I'll see if I can get it to work in the '06 (I also don't shoot much 30-30 anymore! :shock:). It seems to works better with lower expansion ratios.

MJ

[Green Lizzard]

i was using it in 30-30 and 35 rem i would put in diff amts of filler, seat a bullet tap it on the bench pull the bullet wc820 filtered all through the filler. did not see any make it through to the bullet till i set the box on the washing mach. (spin cycle)

[Marlin Junky]

i was using it in 30-30 and 35 rem i would put in diff amts of filler, seat a bullet tap it on the bench pull the bullet wc820 filtered all through the filler. did not see any make it through to the bullet till i set the box on the washing mach. (spin cycle)

So how much did you decide was optimum in the .35 Remington?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

So anyway, the 2.5 grain load (that's 2.5 grains of Dacron and 19.2 grains of WC-820) shot pretty well today, better than the 2.0 grain load and it registered better stats over the chronograph.

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

FYI and also posted earlier in this thread.

Found Dacron batting at WalMart today. Each bag goes for less than $5. Either bag will do a gob of cartridges. Had larger bags for up to $18.

Larry Gibson

72511

[Jailer]

I have and use the one on the right in your attached pic. It works quite well when used appropriately.

Try this Larry ;)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=72511

[Green Lizzard]

i have never weighed any of them, i started using little squares as per lyman but then changed to just pulling a tuft from pillow stuffing. i started doing this 30 yrs ago in 45-70 but now i default to it in most every thing. wc820 is the only powder that it has not worked for me with

[41 mag fan]

they had nothing like that here at our super Walmart.....but then again, they way this one is set up, the batting was liable to be in the section furthest from where it should of been at

[Marlin Junky]

they had nothing like that here at our super Walmart.....but then again, they way this one is set up, the batting was liable to be in the section furthest from where it should of been at

It should be in the section that has the bolts of material.

I'll look for it the next time I'm in Wal-Mart. Does it come in different thicknesses? Does it cut cleanly with a razor blade and an aluminum or steel straight edge? If I can pre-cut little cubes of it rather than tearing a ball from a pile and weighing, that would be a nifty time saving procedure.

MJ

[Jailer]

I use scissors to cut mine.

[41 mag fan]

It should be in the section that has the bolts of material.

I'll look for it the next time I'm in Wal-Mart. Does it come in different thicknesses? Does it cut cleanly with a razor blade and an aluminum or steel straight edge? If I can pre-cut little cubes of it rather than tearing a ball from a pile and weighing, that would be a nifty time saving procedure.

MJ

That's the thing MJ...our super Walmart doesn't carry anything like bolts of material anymore. They carry a little bit of crafts section, but they did away with all that stuff several years ago.
On the cutting the batting, Jim on here passed along a nifty idea.
Here's the link:
http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-hollow-punch-set-67030.html

[Larry Gibson]

MJ

Note the "extra Loft" on the bag? That's the right thickness. If you get batting by the yard I get 5/8 to 3/4" thick. Thinner works fine, you just have to cut larger chunks is all. I use sharpe scissors to cut mine with; cut a strip off about 5/8" wide and then cut into 1/3, 1/2 or 3/4 gr chunks by eye balling it. I keep the chunks in medium flat rate USPS boxes. When "stuffing" into the cartridge you know by the size of the chunk whether "enough" is "enough".

Remember, the key to using the dacron filler is to use enough to fill the air space keeping the dacron in a "loft" state and not tamped down on the powder. With the air space filled there is a +/- after that on the amount. I have done considerable accuracy, velocity and pressure testing of dacron fillers in several cartridges from just fill to crammed full of dacron. There is a point where too much does slightly increase the psi, decrease the velocity and a loss of accuracy generally occurs. However, that is usually close to the "crammed in" stage. In the '06 for instance with 28 - 30 gr 4895 under a 180 - 200 gr cast I recommend a 3/4 gr dacron filler. That will fill the air space with the dacron just poked in so it is still "lofty". Using as much as up to 1 1/4 gr makes little difference in velocity or pressure variation and accuracy generally remains constent. There is no need to weigh each chunk of filler.,,,,,just use enough to fill the air space.

Larry Gibson