SAECO 881/M1881 bullet mold

[Matt85]

im thinking about ordering one of these as they come highly recommended in some of the books im reading. has one here used them for their 45-70 trapdoor rifle? how does it cast using a 20-1 alloy?

I currently have a Lyman 457125AV which I haven't had a chance to fire yet but I foresee problems with this bullet. the nose is too wide meaning it takes a little effort to get a round to chamber. I imagine after a couple shots the fouling will make chambering impossible.

thanks
-matt

[Don McDowell]

Are you mashing the nose of that bullet during the sizing or seating process (need to use something to compress the powder before seating the bullet)

[Matt85]

nope, i tried fitting the nose of the bullet to the barrel before i even seated the bullet in the case. i might try making the lyman bullets outa more pure alloys to reduce the diameter some but i dont want the bands to shrink any more.

as said, ive read some good reviews on the M1881 bullet. i just want some first hand acounts on how it does with various alloys.

-matt

[Roundball]

Isn't the Lyman 458125 made for modern 45 caliber rifles and is a "bore rider?" I would be for slugging the bore of this rifle and figuring what's happening. If the rifle is a Trapdoor something is really amiss.

[Nobade]

You must either have a very tight bored rifle or an abnormally large mould. The #457125 is my go to boolit in my trapdoor, and in fact the nose is small enough that it doesn't really work well in smokeless powder rifles/loads. It rattles around in the bore of the trapdoor, but cast from very soft lead and launched with black powder it slugs up to fit and shoots beautifully. How big is the nose on your boolits?

-Nobade

[CanoeRoller]

The 457125 is similiar to the original slug used in the trapdoor, but not identical Here is a photo ( I hope) from my bench. The middle slug is an original issue, hollow base government issue boolit, next to it on the right is the rapine copy, and to the far right is the lyman 457125, you will notice the original has three big grease grooves, the lyman has four. The lyman nose is also narrower than the original. If you have trouble chambering the lyman, getting your hands on a mold that is closer to the original will not help you much, you will have to seat the boolit farther down into the brass, or get a mold like the two on the left, either a lyman spitzer, or a postel of some sort. I grew up near an infantry fort in Montana, and no one, not parent, mean cows or rattle snakes could keep me off the place once I learned about it. I discovered their target range when I was about 9 or 10 and filled my pockets with slugs on several occasions. As this one is hollow base, it came from a very early issue cartridge, most of the slugs I found were flat base (as I recall).

[13Echo]

In my 1884 Springfield my 457125 cast of 30:1 alloy with a full 70 grs of BP would tumble. I think it cast too small diameter and never bumped up to fill the grooves. On the other hand my SAECO 881 bullets are quite accurate with the same alloy and load. The Lyman cast at 0.457" and the SAECO at 0.460". With good rifling and a tight for Trapdoor bore the Lyman should work, otherwise try the SAECO.

Jerry Liles

[Tom Trevor]

Welcome to the world of Lyman blocks. I have seen the moulds nose at .443 up to ..452 in the 457125 newer moulds. I believe you will find the bore of your Springfield to be .450 the depth of the rifling will be from .461 to .465. The Saeco bullet is your best bet for a good shooter.

[Matt85]

the rifle is an original dated 1891 and the bore is very nice on this gun. I have been trying to get a bore measurement but haven't had much luck with my calipers. I really need to slug the barrel. the Lyman bullet is coming out with a nose diameter of around .450-.451 and a base diameter of .459-.460 (I just measured 3 samples).

thinking about it, im betting my bore is around .450 cause it does feel like the nose is about .0005-.001 oversized. depending on which bullet I grab the nose either takes some wiggling or even some light tapping from my knife handle. im guessing the .451 nose is taking the tapping and the .450 nose is able to be pushed/wiggled into place. either way the bullet nose is too large as fouling will reduce bore diameter.

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

Matt, you may be best served with a custom mold. You might try to slug the barrel so you have an accurate diameter, and then call one of the custom mold makers. The mold's cost is more, but you will have a boolit that will fit exactly. In the long run, you will spend more on mass produced molds than you would on one custom mold. The image I posted above is proof of that, I bought 5 molds trying to improve my groups with the sharps 20 years ago.

With my second black powder rifle, a 40 cal Remington, I had a custom mold made, and that is the only mold I have for it. That works out to about 1/2 the cost (in molds) of getting my sharps to group the way I wanted it to.

[Matt85]

if I can find a mold that's a near exact copy of the original bullet it should work great considering the original bullet was made for this gun. what concerns me is that the Saeco 881 casts a .458 bullet (according to them) using their alloy. this means using a 20-1 alloy Im supposed to use, it might cast a smaller bullet which would not work. a custom mold may be required to match exactly to the original bullet.

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

The Rapine mold I have casts a .459 with 20-1, but I don't think they are being made any more. You always take a chance with Lyman molds, as they vary quite a bit. As their cherry wears, they make smaller diameter molds. This is a bit of a problem with most of the mass market shops. You pay more for the smaller makers and the custom makers, but you are much more likely to get exactly what you are after.

You still have a couple options if you want to try the Saeco 881. You could try a softer alloy like 1-30 or even 1-40, if 20-1 is too small.

If you have access to a lubrisizer, you could mash them a bit. One of the best shooters I know prefers to make his rounds about 1/1000 too small and sizes them through a lubrisizer to guarantee their uniformity. I tend to do this also, though it was years before I realized that this is what I was really doing. I ran all my 45-70 rounds through a .459 sizing die, then mounted them in the case.

[Matt85]

I would like one of those rapine molds but just like you said they are out of business. the molds tested and proven by the author of the book I'm reading are the M81 Rapine and the M81 NEI. I've not been able to find either of these molds using my meager googlefu. it does say the 881 Saeco is designed similar to the original bullet but it was not available at the time to test it. as for another Lyman mold, I'm not wealthy enough to be buying a ton of molds hoping ill get one that works.

edit: with a bit more Google searching I found the NEI websites catalog but it doesn't have an M81 bullet listed. it does have a #347D mold which is listed at being a .458 at 500gr and the picture shown looks like the 45-70 gov bullet. not sure if this is the same one he's talking about though.


-matt

[Don McDowell]

You could call Buffalo Arms and inquire into the nose diameter of this bullet http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160261&CAT=4157
Before you spend much money on moulds you may want to find some of the custom/semicustom casters that offer the bullets you're interested in and try a few of those. The excess from the ones that don't work can always be saved back to feed the casting pot when you find the bullet your rifle likes.

[Matt85]

You could call Buffalo Arms and inquire into the nose diameter of this bullet http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/hunting-1000045.aspx
Before you spend much money on moulds you may want to find some of the custom/semicustom casters that offer the bullets you're interested in and try a few of those. The excess from the ones that don't work can always be saved back to feed the casting pot when you find the bullet your rifle likes.

the link isn't right.

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

You might try contacting NEI for technical information at neihandtools@hotmail.com. Calling the folks at Buffalo Arms could also save you a lot of time looking also. They have very good knowledge of what they sell and how the molds fit black powder rifles (it is their niche). Their phone number is 208-263-6953 (M-F 8-4:30 PST).

My Rapine came from them a longtime back. Their custom molds are not too expensive, about double a mass production mold http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160230&CAT=4157.

This link ought to take you to a mold close to what you are looking for.

[montana_charlie]

I found the NEI websites catalog but it doesn't have an M81 bullet listed. it does have a #347D mold which is listed at being a .458 at 500gr and the picture shown looks like the 45-70 gov bullet.
The NEI 347D was the first mould I bought to load 45/90 cartridges.
It is named the 'Rapid Fire', and I think that is because the nose is reduced a bit in diameter ... making it possible to shove it into a fouled leade.
When using 20-1 alloy, my mould cast at .460", with (about) a .445" nose diameter.
I cannot be more precise on the nose diameter as I no longer have that mould.

The NEI 347 looks more like a reproduction of the government bullet.
It's pictured on the same catalog page as the 347D.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catpages/mold_pg12.htm

CM

[ian45662]

Mat I assume you are reading the book wrote by spence wolf. I followed his advice to a "T" and my 1884 TD shoots the saeco 881 bullet like a champ. With 20:1 it casts .460. My barrel slugs to about 463 which is normal. With 20:1 that bullet will bump up, the origional alloy was 16:1 and boolits were sized to .459. I tried a lyman mold at first I believe the same one in the picture with the 4 grease grooves and I was not to happy with it not because it did not fit but because it just didnt shoot well in my particular rifle. Once I got the saeco 4" groups @ 200 yards was the norm. Make sure to use a good lube and she will shoot great.

[Matt85]

i ended up ordering the .460 500 grain gov mold from buffaloarms. i look forward to seeing how it shoots and if it doesnt perform then i may try the saeco or a custom to match my gun.

-matt

[Two Rivers]

Matt,
I think you'll like that 881. That was the first mold tried when I first started BPCR. A few folks told me that bullet would make it to the 1000 yard steel buffalo in a 45/70. I guess they never explained that to the bullet. ;-)

Steve