New 'Winchester' 1873

[Four Fingers of Death]

Miroku is turning out 1873s for WInchester;

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/the-new-model-1873-short-rifle-from-winchester-repeating-arms/22706/

[Clay M]

If they chambered it for .38/40 I would buy one.

[Four Fingers of Death]

They didn't mention any chamberings. No doubt their first order of business will be 38/357 for the 'gamers.'

[vmathias]

Miroku is turning out 1873s for WInchester;

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/the-new-model-1873-short-rifle-from-winchester-repeating-arms/22706/

Sad to say and sucks to admit but the Japanese put out Superior weapons "In my opinion" than the US market. The Howas, Browning etc... are Beautiful weapons.

[jlchucker]

I wonder what kind of lawyer-inspired safety they'll be putting on these?

[Four Fingers of Death]

They sell the Ubertis without safeties (boy, took me about six goes to get the spelling right on that one!) in Australia.

[ColColt]

My favorite Winchester. I hope it's offered in something other than 357 Magnum or 45 Colt...44-40 would be nice or 44 Magnum but the old '73 action may not be strong enough for that one.


Two countries that we fought & beat in WWII, sell it back to us.

Yep, they also gave us the best cameras and electronics we'll ever see. I'd love to have a receiver and speakers made in Japan instead of Outer Mongolia or Singapore.

[starmac]

Just something to think about.Why is it that these guns can be made profitably in japan and not here? Their hourly wages are way more than ours. From what I understand property there is higher than here. All other things being equal, we should be able to produce them cheaper here. India, brazil, etc may have cheap labor cost, not so with japan.

[John Allen]

I have wanted an 1873 for awhile I guess I better start saving my dollars.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think the Japanese culture produces a worker that is more of a team player and more committed to seeing that his/her company is successful. I don't think they tolerate slackers either. Our fair work practices are screwing our industry.

My friend is a hard working loyal, long term employee of a trucking firm in the next town. They are tearing their hair out with drivers who don't give a hoot and it is almost impossible to get rid of them. They have to be 'breached' for inappropriate behaviour or whatever three times before they can be dismissed. This must occur within a three month period. As soon as these clowns get the second, they pull their heads in for a bit and are cruising! Previous problems are not allowed to be referred to,so an employee may have had twenty serious problems over the years, but unless he gets three in three months, you are s/o luck as far as firing him.

The tougher it gets to compete with foreign companies, the tougher our Labour based Govt' seem to make it for industry here. Our manufacturers are moving overseas in droves.

[ColColt]

I think the Japanese culture produces a worker that is more of a team player and more committed to seeing that his/her company is successful. I don't think they tolerate slackers either. Our fair work practices are screwing our industry.

This is hitting the nail on the head...sad, however.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Could you imagine how our workers or yours would react to having to line up each morning for inspection, exercises and singing the company song?

My wife is Chinese and staff there usually line up like soldiers morning and afternoon at work. I used to see hotel staff on parade in the park opposite of a morning, lined up in ranks getting inspected and briefed for the day. They were right smart as well, girls and boys, I would have been proud to have them beside me. They were as smart in their drill as my soldiers were when I was a Lieutenant in the Army and way smarter than most of the officers I led in the prisons later on (some of those were great, most were pretty ordinary some were awful).

[TXGunNut]

The tougher it gets to compete with foreign companies, the tougher our Labour based Govt' seem to make it for industry here. Our manufacturers are moving overseas in droves. -Four Fingers of Death


Hard to believe you're half a world away with very similar issues. I guess that's why Ozzies and Yanks get along.

[Four Fingers of Death]

HaHa! Guess so.

[ColColt]

Industry? We don't have any industry in this country anymore. I saw it way back in the late 60's when they started shutting down the cotton mills in NC where I grew up. It migrated to the steel industry and clothing manufacturers like Levi. It only got worse over the years and that's why 90% of what we buy today comes from China or other countries. Japan once made the finest electronics in the world from cameras to cassette and reel to reel decks. Now, those are coveted and guys like me pay a good price for a used and refurbished Nakamichi cassette deck or a Teac reel to reel tape deck. We knew they were quality.

[jlchucker]

My favorite Winchester. I hope it's offered in something other than 357 Magnum or 45 Colt...44-40 would be nice or 44 Magnum but the old '73 action may not be strong enough for that one.



Yep, they also gave us the best cameras and electronics we'll ever see. I'd love to have a receiver and speakers made in Japan instead of Outer Mongolia or Singapore.

44-40, 38-40, 32-20 would all be good. If you want the magnums, then a Model 92 would be a better choice.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm with jlchucker, the old rounds were specifically designed for this rifle and feed slicker n' frog snot! They are also the bee's knees if you intend to use blackpowder at any stage. If I wanted to use 357Mag and 44 Mag at anywhere near full velocity and pressure, I'd be picking up a 92 Rossi.

These little rifles are like Ruger single actions, bomb proof. The action can easily handle the 454 Casull ( don't know if we can handle a steady diet of it, haha!).

I wouldn't mind a 454 for curiosity's sake, but it would mostly see a steady diet of 45Colt.

[leadladen]

haven't heard anything really good about the new 73. biggest complaint seems to be the lack of ability to accept after market links, if that is really true. the 357 offering is definitely a financial decision, probably based on the percent of competitors shooting it in competition.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you can't fit the go fast bits, the gamers will not buy it. I think I have the go slow bits in my guns :(

[GabbyM]

I think the Japanese culture produces a worker that is more of a team player and more committed to seeing that his/her company is successful. I don't think they tolerate slackers either. Our fair work practices are screwing our industry.

My friend is a hard working loyal, long term employee of a trucking firm in the next town. They are tearing their hair out with drivers who don't give a hoot and it is almost impossible to get rid of them. They have to be 'breached' for inappropriate behaviour or whatever three times before they can be dismissed. This must occur within a three month period. As soon as these clowns get the second, they pull their heads in for a bit and are cruising! Previous problems are not allowed to be referred to,so an employee may have had twenty serious problems over the years, but unless he gets three in three months, you are s/o luck as far as firing him.

The tougher it gets to compete with foreign companies, the tougher our Labour based Govt' seem to make it for industry here. Our manufacturers are moving overseas in droves.

Japanese companies treat there employees better as well. Street has two sides. In the USA most companies with an employee base anywhere over one hundred will ruin a new employee inside of six months.

In Peoria Illinois you can work for Caterpillar or Kamatsu. Making the same product. I’ll guarantee you, as a former CAT employee, you want to work for the Japanese. At least that’s what I hear.

From the machine shop floor up. What I’ve seen my entire working life. Is the most narcissistic psychopath in the shop gets the promotion to shop foreman. If they can’t find anyone fitting that description they hire one in. Usually a dead ender who was dropped on an up or out promotion cycle. They teach this genius management style in our American Universities.

When I started working back in the 1970’s we had some company fellows left over from the Great Generation. When those were gone and management also transcended a generation. It all went to the dogs. Lee Iacocca did more damage to this nation than Islam ever will. As one example. Root of it simple greed. Spiced with a little yearning to return to the old plantation system of labor management. With plenty of crackers to oil the gears.
It’s sad to the point of desperation.

In case I wasn’t clear. IMHO: there is nothing wrong with American labor. It’s the psychopathic management class that is totally out of sync with reality.

Here is a true life story for you that lays it out pretty simple. Back twenty years or so. I had a new Forman also new to the company who while clueless on the workings of a machine shop wasn’t to bad a guy. He was ordered by our company. One held by Ingersoll Rand Corp. To change the church he attended because to many of the Union workers were members there. Being a violation of the corporate fraternization policy. I was the night shift lead man on this foreman’s shift. Was'nt long before I walked out the door after nineteen years. To this day my work record appears that I was fired. Guess I needed a lawyer to quit. The 29 acre factory building was dismantled and shipped to Japan. IR moved production to a non union shop where the brand of heavy equipment has lost market share ever since. Due to the fact we used to compete straight up against the big boys like Caterpillar because we had a better product. Now Ingersoll Rand has stolen our name for a mere 112 million dollars iirc before asset sell off. They now make the same junk as Caterpillar. I should know as the shop I work at now makes products for both of those *** Corporations.

We can still buy good American made firearms from several manufacturers.
I seriously like my new last year FN Winchester M70 in 30-06. Belgium management may have something to do with that. Sort of sad when you need foreign managers to nurture a happy American worker.

[hightime]

Can Japan make one to look like my Uberti? Can they make it for $1,200? I don't think so, but if they can that will be great. 71588

[starmac]

We can still buy good American made firearms from several manufacturers.
I seriously like my new last year FN Winchester M70 in 30-06. Belgium management may have something to do with that. Sort of sad when you need foreign managers to nurture a happy American worker.

I thought M70 production went to Brazil or somewhere like that.

[ColColt]

FN is in Brazil last account I had.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Columbia, South Carolina, which is one the way to Brasil from where you are, but a bit short. Other stuff is made in Japan via Miroku and I think there is limited production in Belgium. The FN/FAL is still made in Brasil by IMBIL, under license from FN, which has probably expired by now. FN still produce the FN/FAL rifle in America, but for commercial sales only apparently. I hadn't heard of any actual FNs being produced in Brasil. Mind you, I carried a FN/FAL in the Aussie Army and it was not as reliable as my Rossi 92, haha!

[ColColt]

Columbia, SC... I haven't thought of that place in years. I had basic training at Ft. Jackson there winter of '66...A company, 8th Battalion, 2nd Brigade. Amazing I still remember that. Small GI town back then. I don't know about now. Not too many fond memories of Columbia.

[starmac]

I was wrong, this article says the Model 70's will be built in portugal. A couple of months ago I read where gun shops had got the last of the SC built ones in.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/01/06/winchester-to-move-model-70-production-to-portugal-in-2013/

[ColColt]

I was wrong, this article says the Model 70's will be built in portugal

Good grief:(

[WinMike]

I own the Uberti '73 in .357, and once I figured out that it wouldn't feed SWC, but RNFP bullets work fine (the original 44-40 & 38-40 were RNFP design), I've had no issues....it's a really fun rifle to shoot.

And I've had 5 or 6 Miroku Browning rifles. Very accurate, well-built, nice fit. I honestly don't know why US manufacturers can't do the same.

Years ago, I read that Miroku sub-contracts much of its work....both metal and wood....to little old ladies who work from their homes, and are paid on a piece-work basis. Don't know if it's the same process now, but it's an intriguing idea.

[Finster101]

Can Japan make one to look like my Uberti? Can they make it for $1,200? I don't think so, but if they can that will be great. 71588

Is that a flip up sight that I see on your Uberti? Nice pic too. Now I know how to get a good one of my rifle.

[TXGunNut]

Good grief:(


Ditto. I've handled three of the very early Super Grades and all three are awesome. Bought two, one for my brother. Mine was replaced under warranty. Replacement rifle wasn't quite as spectacular as the first two, still pretty awesome. Haven't seen wood as pretty on anything this side of a custom rifle, fit & finish was pretty amazing as well. This should be interesting.

[ColColt]

Joack O'Conner would roll over in his grave if he saw "Portugal" on a M70 barrel...especially in .270.

[smokeywolf]

Although Ben Tyler Henry and Nelson King would probably be very gratified to see their creation is still admired and in demand, they also must be spinning in their graves at the notion of their Winchester '73 being produced by foreigners.

GabbyM, I'm in full agreement with you.

smokeywolf

[Four Fingers of Death]

Colt cap and ball revolvers were made in Europe as well as in the States when they were the new big thing

[hightime]

Yes , it's a Lyman peep.

Owen

[robertbank]

Although Ben Tyler Henry and Nelson King would probably be very gratified to see their creation is still admired and in demand, they also must be spinning in their graves at the notion of their Winchester '73 being produced by foreigners.

GabbyM, I'm in full agreement with you.

smokeywolf

I doubt they would care. A friend of mine just bought a new Uberti `73 and it is one beautiful rifle. I haven`t seen anything made in the States in the last 50 years that would come close to the quality. Have you seen the fit on Marlin rifles these days. No wonder they were bought out by Remington. If nothing changes Remington will also end up in the waste bin.

Take Care

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

My Uberti 1873 Sporting Rifle in 44/40 is a thing of beauty.

[smokeywolf]

I have no doubt that Uberti makes a quality gun. The Italians are known for fine furniture, fine cars and although I never got to run one, I've heard that they made some spectacular lathes.
Given the machinery and technology available in the late 19th early 20th century, few if any could beat Winchester's materials and workmanship on mass produced firearms.
robertbank, I agree with you on the abandonment of American workmanship, which I blame on the lust for higher short term profits. Companies like Miroku and Uberti are concerned with how the company will look 5 and 10 years from now. U.S. companies are more concerned with this quarter's profit statement and year end executive bonuses.

smokeywolf

[robertbank]

I have no doubt that Uberti makes a quality gun. The Italians are known for fine furniture, fine cars and although I never got to run one, I've heard that they made some spectacular lathes.
Given the machinery and technology available in the late 19th early 20th century, few if any could beat Winchester's materials and workmanship on mass produced firearms.
robertbank, I agree with you on the abandonment of American workmanship, which I blame on the lust for higher short term profits. Companies like Miroku and Uberti are concerned with how the company will look 5 and 10 years from now. U.S. companies are more concerned with this quarter's profit statement and year end executive bonuses.

smokeywolf

Sadly true. I read where CZ has there own stand of Walnut planted way before WW11 that continues to supply the company with wooden stocks for their rifles and shotguns. They maintain it today by replanting knowing they will need quality Walnut years from now. The Uberti stocks are as nice a grain stock as I have seen in years. Used to see that kind of wood pictured on American flint lock rifles and high end Winchesters back in the day.

It is more than just lust for profits though. For years we in N.A. and Australia for that matter ( well maybe not Australia ;.) ) received artisans from Europe with every passing war or famine. Not so today. They stay at home now as this side of the pond isn``t as attractive as it once was and frankly hasn`t been for some time. My cousins down in California were more interested in becoming a football star in high school then they were doing serious school work.

Take Care

Bob
Sorry Four Fingers but England had to send their criminals somewhere...LOL We just got the starving Scots while the Americans got the theiving Irish or so said my grand dad who happened to be an Irish, Scottish mix.

[Speedo66]

Unfortunately, US management see's workers as a disposable item, to be paid the lowest wages they can get away with, rather than as members of the team. As long as that thought prevails, workers have no interest in developing non transferable skills, and no interest in a companies future.

Management continues to pay their leaders ridiculous amounts of money, and reward CEO's for firing as many workers as possible, and still be able to put out a barely acceptable product.

Marlin and Remington are prime examples.

[hightime]

I'd say you are wrong. Management knows that the best products for the best price are the ones that will be around in the long run. We my friend are the ones that have priced our labor beyond worldwide average. Yet we don't want to pay more for our purchases than the next guy. Also we tend to value a collage education more than a developed skill.

[smokeywolf]

hightime,
On the value of a collage education (compared to a skill developed over many years), I agree with you.
With regard to the U.S. worker pricing himself out of the labor market. Without completely hijacking the thread, a little research will show you that the only salaries that have shown a significant rise in the last 25 to 30 years have been executive salaries. Please compare executive salaries and salary histories in Europe and Asia to those of American execs. Also compare exec salaries to worker; Exxon Mobil - CEO makes 52,400% more than average worker, 3M - CEO makes 60,400% more than average worker, Nike Inc. - CEO makes 105,000% more than average worker, JC Penney - CEO makes 179,500% more than average worker.

To get back to the subject of this thread I'll leave ya'll with some eye candy...
7192071921

smokeywolf

[ColColt]

What chaps my loins is someone who throws a ball or chases it and gets multiple millions of dollars. This country, and especially around here, is sports nuts. Millions of dollars per year just to play ball. I definitely got into the wrong field.

[Speedo66]

I'd say you are wrong. Management knows that the best products for the best price are the ones that will be around in the long run. We my friend are the ones that have priced our labor beyond worldwide average. Yet we don't want to pay more for our purchases than the next guy. Also we tend to value a collage education more than a developed skill.

I would respectfully disagree with you. It wasn't workers who starting sending good paying manufacturing jobs overseas, it was management in pursuit of higher profits. Nothing wrong with profits, but if college degrees are prized, it's because there are few well paying non college highly skilled jobs around.

We're at the point where decent tools are getting harder to find because Chinese and other overseas junk has edged them out of the market. These are the kind of things that used to be made here, by skilled workers.

American guns used to be among the best, now the consumer is the final tester. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Sort of like American car companies used to be in the bad old days until the Japanese put some fear into them with a better product.

[hightime]

I understand what you're saying and I guess I shouldn't have said you were wrong. It's just that around this neck of the country a skilled union carpenter gets about 42 dollars and hour if the job is in town and a highly skilled carpenter who works a few miles outside the union locked up area get $20. Any job paying good money has a thousand people after it. Union wages are way out of line compared to what people would be glad to get. We don't need unions in government jobs and in the private sector, something closer to reality might be in order. We have to compete globally to keep American job. I used to have a good job as a heavy equipment operator, now the employer hates union worker and will lay them off regularly then hire them back in a week or so. They get nearly $50 per hour with all the benefits. Why would anyone build a product in the US.

By the way an absolute stunning '73.

[smokeywolf]

hightime,
We have to compete globally to keep American job.
Just remember, if you want to compete with wages paid to labor in 3rd world countries, you better be willing to live in a rat infested plywood shack, eat moldy bread and rice, and watch your children die when they come down with dysentery, malaria, hepatitis or even sometimes a common cold.
If you think America should compete with 3rd world wage scales, then you better be willing to give up the standard of living that America has been envied for for the last 150 years.

Thanks for the compliment on the '73 22 takedown.

Since you like purty yeller rifles, here ya go...

7195971960

My old Volcanic. Converted from Rocket Ball to a 41 super short center fire. Predecessor to your Henry.

smokeywolf

[GabbyM]

hightime,
Just remember, if you want to compete with wages paid to labor in 3rd world countries, you better be willing to live in a rat infested plywood shack, eat moldy bread and rice, and watch your children die when they come down with dysentery, malaria, hepatitis or even sometimes a common cold.
If you think America should compete with 3rd world wage scales, then you better be willing to give up the standard of living that America has been envied for for the last 150 years.

Thanks for the compliment on the '73 22 takedown.

Since you like purty yeller rifles, here ya go...

7195971960

My old Volcanic. Converted from Rocket Ball to a 41 super short center fire. Predecessor to your Henry.

smokeywolf

Ditto:

I get a bit aggravated when people tell me I should work for third world wages.
My wife runs a company and she does not pay 3rd world wages.
Her employees actually make more money than I do at my job. It's just I can't do the hard work they do.
We could hire illegal workers and be millionaires inside of a few years. Selling our daughters into prostitution would be another way to make one. Then there is always placement of gambling machines. After you get that crowd in you can sell them drugs to make a quick buck. Hell just whatever it takes to make an Obama buck. What ever.

I'll just stay poor and work for a living.

It's still possible to become a millionaire in America without being a pimp. Just takes a little more work.

[GabbyM]

I was wrong, this article says the Model 70's will be built in portugal. A couple of months ago I read where gun shops had got the last of the SC built ones in.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/01/06/winchester-to-move-model-70-production-to-portugal-in-2013/

I love my new FN M70.
That said if they move "assembly" to Europe I’ll never buy another one.
Am not a buy American prude. Since I drive a VW car. When I bought my VW no American car company sold a car getting over 40 mpg. Now Ford does. A few companies in America make actions based on or similar to a Win M70. Then there are the Savage guns. In short ****em.

I bought my FN Win M70 last year for around $750 If they need more money they should try charging $800. But they will of course charge $900 after moving off shore with a reputation they built up using American labor. Rake in money for a few months before the populace figures out they are getting screwed. Yadda yadda./

[GabbyM]

Montana rifle Co.
Builds a great M70 auctioned rifle.
Just kick out a couple more days pay and get one if FN takes Winny out of shore.

http://www.montanarifleco.com/index.html

P.S.
For most of you that would be a half days pay.
My income level would be two days pay and I'd pay that.

[hightime]

There a big difference between the $20 per hour I make a what a union man makes. And I'm not living like a third world person. I own a couple hundred acres. a home a cabin, boat and boat loads of guns. Aren't you willing to cut back to save America? Because we have to and do it fast.
Adjust or turn to dust.

[robertbank]

Ditto:

I get a bit aggravated when people tell me I should work for third world wages.
My wife runs a company and she does not pay 3rd world wages.
Her employees actually make more money than I do at my job. It's just I can't do the hard work they do.
We could hire illegal workers and be millionaires inside of a few years. Selling our daughters into prostitution would be another way to make one. Then there is always placement of gambling machines. After you get that crowd in you can sell them drugs to make a quick buck. Hell just whatever it takes to make an Obama buck. What ever.

I'll just stay poor and work for a living.

It's still possible to become a millionaire in America without being a pimp. Just takes a little more work.

It isn`t the Third World you are competing with. Japan has higher wages than the US. There almost as many cars sold in China now than there is in the US. Back in the late 70`s one of my customers built a drilling rig in Texas. He had to bring Canadian electricians down to finish the job as the local electricians didn`t know how to connect the wiring up. on the panels and when there was a problem they couldn`t find the solution. Sad commentary but true.

Both our labour forces have to be better educated today than ever before if we want to compete on the world stage.

Take Care

Bob

[smokeywolf]

Bill W.,
That Volcanic, sans stock, was converted by my father to cycle and chamber a 41 Colt shell that had been cut down to .400 case length. I never saw him load for it, but I'm guessing that a 180 grain hollow base on top of as much fffg as you could fit into the case.
The original Volcanic, designed and built by Horace Smith, Dan Wesson and Ben Tyler Henry used a conical hollow based boolit (Rocket Ball) that held its charge of powder in its hollow base, which was contained by a copper cup loaded with a primer charge.

My father also had an original Henry that he converted from rim fire to center fire back in 1960. He traded that for something(s). I still have the reloading dies for the 44 Henry.

smokeywolf

[starmac]

It isn`t the Third World you are competing with. Japan has higher wages than the US. There almost as many cars sold in China now than there is in the US. Back in the late 70`s one of my customers built a drilling rig in Texas. He had to bring Canadian electricians down to finish the job as the local electricians didn`t know how to connect the wiring up. on the panels and when there was a problem they couldn`t find the solution. Sad commentary but true.

Both our labour forces have to be better educated today than ever before if we want to compete on the world stage.

Take Care

Bob
We have not been able to compete with Japan for quite a few years, and like you stated their wages are way higher than ours, but their labor cost are lower. Hmmm.

[smokeywolf]

I wish we could continue this discussion, but I don't want the Mods to have to step in and chastise us for talking world economics on a Lever Guns thread.

smokeywolf

[hightime]

Yeah you're right. That is quite a piece of history. I'll not be able to have one, but a Volcanic pistol is my dream. I think I saw a case with two, like dueling pistols somewhere. I don't know what you think of this , but for me and my budget, I'd buy a Uberti repro. If they'd build one.

[robertbank]

Yeah you're right. That is quite a piece of history. I'll not be able to have one, but a Volcanic pistol is my dream. I think I saw a case with two, like dueling pistols somewhere. I don't know what you think of this , but for me and my budget, I'd buy a Uberti repro. If they'd build one.
Send them an email. You never know what might happen. If they chambered the gun in 38 S&W you would have a cartridge that likely would mimic the old conical arrangement of the original.

Take Care

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

An 1873 in 38S&W would be an interesting rifle, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.