Safety of hubel Sabot in .875 muzzle thickness barrel?

[cpileri]

Well, i finished boring out the barrel referenced here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?191879-What-should-I-do-Custom-cast-725-slug-or-725-quot-E-quot-reamer-to-the-bore
and it is now overbored at .737; a .735 round ball falls through by gravity alone.

The muzzle thickness is .875

But mr. Hubels sabot w 440-460gr minie balls are a tight fit (more than 6-10lbs pressure; tight!), so i am thinking of trying them.

Since the recommended powder charge of 40-45gr-ish of Steel is for .92 muzzles, where would you all recommend I start and stop load development so as not to risk splitting the barrel. or perhaps a switch to a faster powder, keeping the pressure near the breech where its thicker?

Thanks!
C-

[jmort]

If you PM him I bet he would give you some load info for his sabots. I'm probably going with around 30 - 35 grains of Steel and two .575 290 grain balls.

[cpileri]

Oh. Sure. Remind me about the PM feature.

Duh.

Need more coffee!

C-

[hubel458]

I'd start with 35gr steel go to 40gr. Or use lesser amounts of
a faster powder. You can find starting loads for 1 oz payloads
in manuals and in the info that Ajay has posted here.

Discarding sabots due to how they were designed mainly for rifled and they
are supposed to fit tight, need more than 6-10 lbs of push through a barrel
for accuracy and to stay square against seal and wads so that
seal and wads have good sealing. That is why we made it similiar size
and style like the accutip, which fits real tight like that, and is very accurate.
A tight fit like rifle bullets have in arifled bore.

But in the long run to get the max potential power and accuracy we got to use
heavier rifled barrels.Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Cpileri, don't forget the Donut, that goes along with the coffee brother!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/38grSteelcopy_zpsa74f8d9f.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/38grSteelcopy_zpsa74f8d9f.jpg.html)
Here we used 12 ga. Federal hulls with Fed.209A magnum primer required for A. Steel powder and then topped it with X12X OP wad followed by .170" thick Darker nitro card and then Ed's Sabot with .58 cal bullet of 460 gr and we used 60 to 70 lbs wad pressure to seat the sabot all the way home!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Edsloadcopy_zps2696780a.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Edsloadcopy_zps2696780a.jpg.html)

Please be sure to post pictures from the range.
Have fun while you are at it!

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

ooooooo, i forgot abt the Magnum primer requirement! Thanks! (if i can find any nowadays). WIll it be OK w non-magnum primers?

And I sure will post pics. I'll be trying them in a smoothbore, so it may be of interest to others.

C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Sorry brother Cpileri, that powder needs a Magnum primer to ignite!
You could also try CCI 209M Magnum primer instead!
If you can't find then go ahead use at least Fiocchi 616 primer, it will still work for now, take my word for it!

As it is, that sabot will very likely tag along for a free ride piggy back and might not release the bullet, that's why I asked you to load it with 38 gr charge hoping the air peeling effect will do the job releasing the bullet!

Polish your forcing cones for a smoother launch and transfer:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02714.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/DSC02714.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02715.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/DSC02715.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/DSC02716.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/DSC02716.jpg.html)
Say your prayer's and try them at your own risk, tho!

Lets make a deal, I'll prey for you, you prey for me as I'll be at the range in the next few days.
Wish me luck so I can help my family of Slug Shooter's.

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

I do have some 616's, will check the meager supplies for magnums.
Any other powders/charges that might work, ones that dont require magnum primers?
C-

p.s. I'm happy to pray for you. Anytime.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Thanks, Cpileri, we all need good wisher's to succeed in life!

Right now don't worry just use Fiocchi 616 till you get some Fed 209A primer's.
LongShot, 4756, WSF, Blue Dot and A.Steel.

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

Yeah, when I first read "say your prayers"; i thought "Goodness sakes, what am I getting into!?!?"- i.e took it as a warning. Then i saw it wasnt ( thankfully!)
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

We are watching, brother and if we can help, will stop you and correct you.

I can't wait to see your results as my dear friend JmorTimer too is watching how you do,
he too has a smooth bore and wants to try them just like you.

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

OK, so i found some 3" Fiocchi primed hulls, and loaded only 5 shells: one of each w 35gr, 36gr and 37gr; and 2 of 38gr A. Steel; then a x12x gas seal, a 1/4" hard (dark) nitro card, the Hubel Sabot/minie combo, and a clear overshot disk to give the roll crimp a place to rest; and of course a roll crimp.

I have a few loads to test now, so will head out soon and report back.

C-

[hubel458]

You don't need overshot disc or card to roll crimp these,
The roll crimp goes right down over the edge of the top
of the sabot, that makes for tightest hold on the wad and sabot
column and gives best and most uniform ignition.Ed

70868

[cpileri]

Do you think the overshot disc is dangerous? or just unnecessary? Should i uncrimp them and re-roll w/o the disc?
C-

[OnHoPr]

That is up to you. As Hubel stated it is not necessary. They IMO aren't dangerous. If they are going to be pocket shells then maybe the the over shot disc can help with ID or keep lint, bark, pocket debris of sorts out of the boolit/sabot unit possibly effecting accuracy or debris getting into the magazine. Test with and without to see if there are any accuracy differences.

[hubel458]

Not dangerous at all- may affect accuracy.

How old is your gun, what brand and type. It may be newer alloy
barrel and could go to say 43-45gr of steel. Heavy barrels with
440 gr slug can do 55GR steel. Ed

[cpileri]

Gun is new, or a couple years old but in fired very little: a Rossi single shot 12ga (kind of a H&R knock off), locks up tight and actually shoots pretty good- or did before bore reaming. Now has been bored out to .737 as mentioned to "fix" some internal constrictions and burrs.
I would have liked it at .729, but my reamer cut wide even with the bushings. So now its overbored. Muzzle diameter is .875.
Not sure what alloy Rossi (Brazil) uses.
C-

[hubel458]

That Rossi is new enough it could handle 42gr steel in that weight of barrel.
Rossi also makes a rifled barrel12ga with little heavier barrel. You may not get
good accuracy with that large of overbore. Lets us know how it goes.Ed

[cpileri]

Many thnaks everyone!
So here's what i am getting so far;
Recommendation to use heaviest safe powder charge (up to 42gr) to ensure best chance that the sabot releases, right?
Overbore issues: might not be accurate. Sure.
I am looking for .737 slugs (no luck)- and .735 rbs fall through by gravity.
I did see in mr Vdomemorie's post that a .678 rb in a Hornady versalite wad is a good for overbores. Midway sells an off brand of that wad (not brand name hornady), would that be equivalent?
Maybe the Paradox 12ga ctg that lewis drake sells (a .735 fosbury slug) would work?
I suppose I could look around for a custom mold, or a bump-up die; but dont want to spend extra $$ at this time.
Any ideas appreciated!
C-

[cpileri]

more spec on the Paradox cartridge:

Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 ¼ tons " / 850 bar

Converting bar to other pressures 850 bar= 12330 psi

Modern 12ga shotgun= 11500 psi, or 14000 for 3.5" magnum loads.

Sound safe?
C-

[OnHoPr]

You might be able to patch a round ball in your situation such as in a smooth bore muzzle loader. Pillow ticking comes in various thicknesses to accommodate the differences in bore, ball, and accuracy. Lubes for the patches come in many different forms so the actual accuracy can be enhanced by either patch or lube. Pillow ticking is not the only patch material.

[cpileri]

Paper patching could work. I'd need practice wrapping a total of .02-.03 thickness around a rb; but wrapping .08 around a .729 ought to be easier.

I did load a few .678 RBs into the Downrange-Hornady-knock-off-brand Versalite wads, and pushed them backwards thru the bore and they do require the perfect 6-10 lbs of pressure to move. So I loaded up a few of them to try out as well. Just 2x20gafiller wads in the shotcup brought the ball up enough for the roll crimp. FYI: the versalite wad base is narrow enough that it fits right in the groove in a BPI x12x gas seal, lowering the wad column a smidge. Just something to keep in mind.

I think I will test them out at 25yds, but I know I will need to move farther out to see if the hubel-sabots seperate.

Next range trip will be FUN though!

C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Brother Cpileri, 6 point fold crimp instead of roll crimp for better launch and accuracy.

As I said before we together will change a few things, the way we load RB, Slugs and Sabots!

Whether RB or Slug in wad, we will help improve it by fold crimping them.

Raise your Rb or Slug to the point that it will open up the fold crimp without mangling the wad petals.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/20gaNondiscardingsabotscopy_zps42b65323.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/20gaNondiscardingsabotscopy_zps42b65323.jpg.html)

Please be sure to post pictures from the range.
Have fun while you are at it!

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

Thanks for the crimp advice.
I've been doing roll crimps because my star crimps... well.. stink.
I need a real reloading press.
C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Cpileri, you can get a Lee Load All to fold crimp and load slugs just fine.
I personally use progressive loader's as single stage loader, as I check each charge individually and double check.

Have fun, while you are at it!

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

Im asking for one for Father's Day. Here's hoping...

Will be testing the loads out next tuesday and will post back, of course!
C-

[cpileri]

Ok, here's the proposed line-up for the next testing session:

load test, Tues 28 May 2013
Temp:
Wind:
Humidity:
Platform: Rossi single shot 3”chamber, forcing cone reamed/polished, 23” bbl, smoothbore overbored to .737 (unless otherwise specified), cylinder bore choke (i.e. none)
Target distance: 25 yds unless otherwise specified

Load: 1
Hull: Grey Win HS 2.75”
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 2x 17.5 Green Dot, 2 x18.5gr Green Dot
Wad column: Win12AA
Load: .678 Round Ball (intended for .727 bore)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold (poorly)

Load: 2
Hull: Fed 3” red
Primer: Fed 209
Powder & Charge: 17gr Green Dot
Wad column: X12X gas seal, ¾ Circle Fly Fiber 12ga wad, Win 12AA w petals cut off
Load: .735 Rb paper patched to .741, paper tail inserted into 2x ‘donut’ felt wads
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold (poorly)

Load: 3
Hull: Fio 3” brown
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 17gr Green Dot
Wad column: X12X, Down Range (aftermarket for Hornady) Versalite, 2x20ga in cup to bring ball up
Load: .678 RB (better fit for .737 bore)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll (2 w/ clear OS disc, one w/ just roll crimp)

Load: 4 (polishing load only)
Hull: green Rem STS
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 15gr Green Dot
Wad column: 2xCircle Fly 12ga Fiber wads rolled in Steel Glo powder, 1x BP ‘donut’ felt wad rolled in Steel Glo)
Load: .735 RB (sprue in hole of donut wad)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: Fold (some poorly, some OK)

Load: 5 (Hubel Sabot test)
Hull: Fio 3” brown
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 1x35gr Alliant Steel, 1x 36gr A. Steel, 1x 37gr Steel, 2x 38gr Steel
Wad column: x12x gas seal, a 1/4" hard (dark) nitro card, Hubel Sabot
Load: .58 Minie Ball (440gr) in sabot
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear OS disc, roll crimp


Load: 6 (VdoMemorie “mighty” buck’n’ball)
Hull: mixed (1 Brenneke 2.75”, one Fed red, etc)
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 29gr Longshot
Wad column: X12X, .125 hard NC on top, and see below
Load: 6x00Buck, then .17 dark NC, then .678RB in cup portion only of Win AA12 wad
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: fold (poorly)

Load: 7
Hull: Fed 3” red
Primer: Fed 209
Powder & Charge: 28gr HS-6
Wad column: thin fiber filler wad, 2.75” TPS wad
Load: 48 pellets F-shot (~775gr)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: clear OS disc, roll crimp

Load: 8
Hull: Fio 3” brown
Primer: Fio 616
Powder & Charge: 48gr IMR-4227
Wad column: X12X, .17 hard NC, 3/32 cork
Load: 1043gr hardcast, lubed slug (1x sized .725, 1x sized .729)
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: OS Card, Roll crimp

Load: 9 (factory Holland & Holland paradox load, as sold by Lewis Drake)
Hull: whatever 2.5” Holland & Holland uses
Primer: whatever H&H uses
Powder & Charge: whatever H&H uses
Wad column: whatever H&H uses
Load: .735 Fosbury-style 740gr solid
Overshot (if any) & Crimp: roll

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Cpileri, on your load #6 you forgot the main ingredient a .170 Darker nitro card to separate the Buck and ball with a stiff card to protect one another from damaging!
You need a .125-12 nitro card on top of X 12 X too then your buck shot!
Start low at 26.5, 27, 27.5 gr Longshot!

"No man is a failure who is enjoying life at the range."- Blazing Sabots

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl

[cpileri]

Thanks.
And I will load some w the lesser powder charges, too. No need to beat my shoulder that much.
C-

[cpileri]

Well, here are the results. Later will post some reclaimed wad and component pictures for analysis. I hope the pictures load well.
Temp 78degF
Humidity 80%
winds 6mph w slight gusts

Load 1: light and easy and even though designed for a .727 bore, shot pretty well. The 75yr old shooter these were developed for should be very pleased. He is shooting them in a Baikal over-under, in case anyone is interested in his results later.
71848

Of note, all hulls extracted/ejectedwith authority until load 8. below.

[cpileri]

Load 2: first hull was poorly (incomplete closure) fold crimped, the other 2 had totally sunken (as in too deep for general purposes) fold crimps and shot well.
71849

[cpileri]

BTW, Point of Aim was always at the crossing of 2 strips of tape, usually an X, but in later posts you'll see a backwards Y-ish thing- a result of taping a tear in the paper. :0
Load 3: thought this one would be 'perfect' based on the .737 combination. here's the target:
71850
The first shot was lacking the OS clear disc, the 2nd and 3rd were roll crimped.

[cpileri]

Load 4 was just for polishing up the bore, so I just launched it at stuff; but it seemed to go where I was pointing- even a log at 50yds away. Maybe I'm on to something.
Load 5: the one you've been waiting for (Hubel sabot load thru a smoothbore)
71851
So looking at it, the first shot hole was small; as if the sabot did not release or even open at this close range. Later, I did find 2 open wads (pics to come) which seem to correspond to the hotter loads. The next shot holes were wider seeming to indicated the wad petals were opening. Not sure if the 2 I recovered were the hottest 38gr loads or not. the 36gr load hit closest to POA, though only a sample size of 1 shot. The group is about 4 inches at 25 yds. But maybe can be tightened up w careful load development. All loads fired w/ Fio 616 primers and A.Steel powder, no issues. Maybe some of this hexagonal boronitride powder I have will help the sabot release earlier? More experimenting is in order. Thanks Mr.Hubel!

[cpileri]

Load 6: 2 pics. First pic is of first shot only, second of an agglomerate of both of course.
71852

[cpileri]

In Load 6, pic 1 above; RB is the .678 ball, and the numbers are the buckshot. Should put the hurt on large nuisances at defense range!
Load 6, pic 2:
71853
Arrows indicate the second shot buckshot pellets.

[cpileri]

71897
Load 7: what a KICKER!! esp in this light gun. This one shot well enough, I think, for a cylinder bore. Intended for coyote at 20-30 yards. Note that this load blew the wad, base had a hole in it and one pellet was recovered still inside the wad, to the left where it blasted the PVC pipe support.
71854
and almost all 48 pellets were on the paper. Pattern has holes in it, though. Any suggestions?

[cpileri]

71903Load 8: only fired one shot, as it stuck in the chamber, though only required a slight tap w a wooden dowel to remove. Shot was the .725 sized slug. Lots of unburned powder along the bore. I wonder how much lower charge I can go: psi listed on this load is only 8333psi.
Figuring that the .729 would only increase sidewall pressure, maybe not, but that's what i thought; I didnt try it.
I might be interested in .737 sized and a lighter charge though...
71855

I still LIKED it, and want to try more along these lines (hardcast, slow, heavy)

[cpileri]

And finally, load 9: a factory H&H load. Note that the 2 wads (that I didnt know were there before firing it) hit the target as well. it hit quite high, but at 75 or 100yards or whatever these things are intended for, I'm sure it would drop right i there. Admittedly, only 1 shot was fired.

71904
71856

So wht do you all think?

I'll post a line up of recovered components later. The Rossi held up well, stayed tight.
C-

[cpileri]

Here are some pics of the components I was able to recover. First a line up of them all:
71932

[cpileri]

Next the blown wad from Load 7 with the recovered pellet. Hard to see the hole i the mangled base. Sorry.
71933

[cpileri]

And the 2 recovered Hubel sabots. They opened nicely.
71934

Hope you all found this interesting!
C-

[cpileri]

Also, each paper target (except the first big hunk of cardboard and the buckshot pattern target) is abt 12"x12", if that helps anyone estimate group sizes.
C-

[hubel458]

In smooth barrel I got 3" group at about 25yds. Mine was a heavy barrel
like NEF Ultra,and tight bore, no choke. Fired faster speed
with 440gr and sabots open up a little more. Ed

[cpileri]

Also noticed something interesting: the imprint of the Hubel sabot is clearly present on the .125 nitro card that was under it:
72030

[cpileri]

See also that there is no gas cutting on he sides of the card. the imprint of the x12x on the underside is also present. makes me thin I didnt load with enough wad pressure and the x12x slammed up into the card, which slammed up into the sabot leaving the imprint. Could that be it? or is this normal for the card wads?
72060

[cpileri]

No apparent gas blow by
72061

[OnHoPr]

I'm not sure but maybe you could have reworded the OP a little differently. I like the way those sabots are fairing so far with the pedals and base still in good condition after firing. Not to bad Ed. Seems like with a number of boolits and other components, the individual should be able to come up with an accurate load.

[turbo1889]

See also that there is no gas cutting on he sides of the card. the imprint of the x12x on the underside is also present. makes me thin I didnt load with enough wad pressure and the x12x slammed up into the card, which slammed up into the sabot leaving the imprint. Could that be it? or is this normal for the card wads?
72060

In tests I've conducted in a hydro-ram press I've confirmed that "hard" nitro cards squish down to nearly half their thickness when subjected to the equivalent of 10,000 PSI/in^2. They do have some "give" to them and do function as a crush section in the loads wad column. They just don't give nearly as much as dedicated cushion wads made from softer materials such as felt/cork/fiber/etc . . . A little bit of cushion in a slug load is good to help prevent any aggressive pressure spikes but too much can be detrimental to accuracy. Just using nitro cards between the over powder gas seal (if a separate plastic gas seal is used) and the bottom of the slug or sabot has given me good results providing enough cushion to keep things safe with most slower burning powders and provide decent accuracy without a bunch of fuss.

Long story short, any wad pressure you provide is negligable compared to the pressure generated by the burning powder charge when the shell is fired. The nitro cards are going to squish a little in the load when it is fired regardless. Wad pressure is all about getting consistent stable burns by controlling the initial conditions under which the powder is ignited and begins its burn.

[hubel458]

That imprint of the X12X on the card is normal as turbo has stated.
A guy could just use card with no plastic seal like old days, but you will have
some blowby and lose speed as well as have powder getting by card, when case is handled.Now the bigger kernels
of the Steel and 4759 powder(both similiar) don't
leak by as easy.

I solve a lot of these problems by using the MEC Collet Super Sizer even on
new cases to keep sides in to stay as tight as possible on the seal.
And REM STS cases are heavier sides and work better also.
The sealing on these sabot loads with more of a slower powders, means
the seals are higher up in the case so heaver tighter sides help...Ed

[hubel458]

That imprint in the middle of card from sabot is the tip that
is left as it comes from mold. The mfg setup is a one hole direct injection
mold which makes best way to regulate plastic density and strength.
Plus that one hole mold is all we could afford to do.That tip can
be cut of with sharp knife to make little more room where using
hard card under the sabot. I use white felt wads which the tip
sets down into. I have cards to spare if guys can pay a little.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gacards.jpg

[cpileri]

How much do you want for them? All 12ga? And approx how many?

[cpileri]

Turbo! Thanks thats exactly the info i was looking for! I guess ill keep developing the load and see if i can come up w something a smoothebore shooter can use.

And InHoPr, yes this thread did kind of morph. But i hope the info is useful to others.
C-

[hubel458]

They are all 12ga about 4000 in the big box. I'll keep some.
I'd sell them by the 1000 for 10 bucks plus shipping
total $17 shipped in postal box.

Or 3000 for $45 including shipping.Ed

[cpileri]

so just asking: if i test out a bunch of new slug loads, using this gun; should I post it here or start a new threaad?
this thread has become more about the loads and less about the gun, I think.
Just taking a quick poll.
C-

[hubel458]

Title of thread should be are any fast sabot loads safe in thin barrels.
Maybe change the title.

OBJECT OF SABOTS ARE FASTER LOADS, MORE POWER,
AND THAT MEANS MORE DOWN THE BARREL PRESSURES.

Been thinking since other poster bulged barrel on older thin barrel
gun, in another thread with his slug design. It is great slug
design, nothing wrong with iy. BUT, Older guns have low alloy,
thin barrels and I can't reccomend sabots or any hot slug loads in them.
Only low alloy barrels to use are those over an inch at the muzzle for 12ga..
Like the Nef Ultra at 1.070", And high alloy barrels I use for heavy loads
are .920" at the muzzle.and bigger.Like Savage 210.

For the guy who bulged, the gun involved has a real strong action, but
thin barrel. Not the right combo to use for heavy loads.
Nef Ultras or alloy slug barrels for other guns. pump, etc, for
these loads are cheap insurance.

And don't use less than 40gr of steel for these sabot loads with 500gr
slugs and heavier slugs and any less than 44gr with lighter slugs in sabot. .Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks, Ed. Highest I went w your sabots was 440gr slug and 38gr steel w Fio 616 primer. Plan to do higher up to 44gr Steel if I ever find any magnum primers for sale again. I check once in awhile, so far no luck from usual sources.
I can keep posting here as long as I include a Hubel Sabot load. That way the title wont be so off.C-

P.s. in the market for a Savage 210! That and a Baik double 45-70... And a seaway Bangstick... So many guns so little time and money... Anyway: Happy 4th!!!

[hubel458]

Maybe find a NEF Ultra. less than half the cost of savage so you
can get loads going and not have to worry about barrels.
Operating with hugely reduced loads with sabots , for which they are
not made for, may give them a bad name.

For the 30 or so others who monkeyed with the junk sabots over
the years and found them inaccurate and wanting
please see if you all will get on board help test these out.
Most of you have right guns and experience.
IE, we need those who used the good ones made back east,
on a small scale, to see if ours is comparable or close to that..Ed

[cpileri]

More info: while celebrating the 4th by excercising one of our remaining freedoms ( at the range w 3 youngsters), I found another Hubel sabot from my previous test. It was splayed open perfectly. So that means that at least 2 powder charges developed enough velocity to open from a .737 smoothebore. Recall I loaded two shells at 38 gr of Alliant Steel and one each from 35-37gr. So even if both 38's opened, one other did also.
I found all three sabots btw 25 and 35 yards from the firing line. Hope that helps.
C-

[hubel458]

I found that they open great also. As I said before about comparing to sabots
with smaller diameter bullets in them, maybe you can have too
much plastic, as they may not open as easily and squarely as ours
which is similiar to accutip. The pictures we posted of them opening
in 12ga FH thread is what showed what was needed.Ed

[cpileri]

Hey All,
Can i just say how pleased i am w the treatment I've gotten over here: THANKS!

I mean, everyone knows i am the new guy, and I am taking ideas from guys whose interests align w mine but are further along the path towards actualizing it (700NE from a 12ga!Am i right!?!!?). but still, every question i've asked has gotten a nice informative, even friendly response.

Maybe i'm just comparing, which isnt entirely fair, to the roasting I got for asking an honest if innane question on another part of this forum;but I still think you all deserve a thanks for the respect you show.

C-

[Carryacolt]

Those here are "the best of the best!"

[cpileri]

Ok, so i have a new test platform: H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel. breech measures 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". Forcing cone is lengthened such that it blends w the beginning fo the rifling.
The Six-groove bore micro's out at: lands: .721-.7215, and grooves: .731-.7315. The Hubel Sabot is SNUG in there! But i will make some attempts to really wring out these slugs now.
I plan to fill the buttstock hole with a cylinder of lead shot, too.

Any suggestions for max safe start/stop loads w this barrel and action?

Serial number starts w CBA, which indicated the stronger SB2 (rifle strength) receiver. Seems like the latching mechanism is the weak point on this heavy beast.

C-

So now i will begin to test the loads that are more designed for rifled barrels in earnest. I tried them in a smoothbore, and it was fun; but I think this might be the way to go. Until a Savage 210 shows up at least.

Any suggestions on a LER scope for this baby? maybe a red dot? holographic?
Something that can take the recoil?

C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Brother Cpleri, with the rifled barrel you do not need to worry about the tight fit, that test is only for a smooth bore that are known for having weaker thinner barrel's and some even as thin as paper.

With what you wrote above you got me hooked on to buy that baby with barrel breech measuring 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". Forcing cone is lengthened such that it blends with the beginning from the rifling.

Now you are talking about Nitro Express Heavy load, get your self a slip on recoil pad for added insurance against recoil for $ 10 from MidSouth Shooters!!
I'll check and see what load will be good for you now that you have the H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel.

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots

[turbo1889]

Ok, so i have a new test platform: H&R Ultra Slug Hunter 12ga 3" chamber, 24" barrel. breech measures 1.21" and muzzle measures 1.08". . . .

Any suggestions for max safe start/stop loads w this barrel and action?

Serial number starts w CBA, which indicated the stronger SB2 (rifle strength) receiver. Seems like the latching mechanism is the weak point on this heavy beast. . . .


I have mine with a chamber that has been extended to 3-1/2" length running 14-K pressure loads in the longer super magnum length shells. Haven't tried Hubel's sabots in those kind of loads but I've run Lyman 525gr. wad-slug loads (hard cast) using 60 grains of STEEL powder through it and it that is sitting just about right for a good magnum load that is running at about the same pressure levels as commercial 3-1/2" magnum waterfowl loads. With your shorter chamber your going to loose a 1/2" of cushion in your wad-column but you are also running a little lighter weight payload if you are still using the same 440-460gr weight boolits inside of the sabots.

I wouldn't start that high but it should give you an idea of how high you could potentially go.

Also, with the big bull barrel that gun is equipped with you can run even slower burning powder loads - namely Reloader-17 loads where your minimum start charge is 100 grains :shock: with all but the heaviest slugs and depending on slug weight you top out at about 135 grains. (Get the info from Hubels 12GAFH thread).

[cpileri]

According to Mr. Hubel's post from 07-15-2006, the NEF (H&R)..." WE figured heavy barreled NEF good for 20,000 psi
slow powder loads. "
here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?7916-12GA-FH-Slug-Tester&p=90739&viewfull=1#post90739

I'll beg for load data for my 3"chamber soon!

C-

[cpileri]

here is some gleaned from that thread:

Testing stick powders in NEF, short version of our
case. Case is 3.07 inches long.
Using 600 gr hardened slugs. Got 1700 fps
with 215 gr of RL-25.

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
And long barrel would get over 2000.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers.

I do want to confirm these loads are for a stock NEF, and not one that has had any reinforcing mods; such as a heavier barrel etc, before i try them, though.

I also changed out the metal (iron?) bar in the but stock for rolled lead sheet, and now it weighs 10lbs w/o the scope. I heard bad things abt adding weight to the forearm, so i wont do that yet. i may drill anothe rhole or 2 in the stock and fill w lead. We'll see.
C-

[turbo1889]

Yah, It wouldn't surprise me at all if the NEF-USH guns can take a steady diet of even more then just 20-K proof load pressure levels (that is the pressure level manufactures of shotguns are suppose to use to test the strength of their guns and one load at that pressure in a brand new gun off the assembly line is not supposed to blow it up) and I do run some of my 20ga. 3-1/2" full length brass case loads up that high, but that is because I can be reasonably sure those loads won't be fired or even be able to chamber in a regular shotgun.

But 12ga. 3" and 3-1/2" loads, would hate to load that hot and then have such a load end up in a regular shotgun that can't take it. That is a big part of the reason I reamed my chamber out to 3-1/2" so I could step up the pressure to the higher 14-K limit of the longer shell length that is built for modern guns and won't chamber in some old pre-WWII gun and blow it up in your face.

Long story short, me personally, I prefer to keep the loads down to the top end of what is acceptable for the shell length I'm loading in because I'm partly anal and partly paranoid. But if you keep the shells separate and clearly labeled you should be okay.

[cpileri]

more ideas (unconfirmed loads, not sure if tested!!!). Note these are 700NE loads, so case is much longer than 12ga.

Using Quickload, 1000gr Woodleigh SN bullet.
77.5 gr of H4198 will give you about 1100fps with a chamber pressure of 12,284psi (Max for 700 NE is 31,908psi). 40% fill, 83.8% burn in 24" barrel.

65.0gr of H4227 will give you ~1100 fps with a chamber pressure of 11,065psi. 90.7% burn in 24" barrel, with 34% fill.

53.0gr of Alliant 2400 will give you ~1100 fps with a chamber pressure of 11,770psi. 99.2% burn in 24" barrel, with 27% fill.

65.0gr of H110 will give you about 1100fps with a chamber pressure of 11,294psi. 95.3% burn in 24" barrel, with 29% fill.

[cpileri]

and (Note these are 700NE loads)

1000gr bullet, 20" barrel
40.0gr of AP 70N (which ~=to Universal /Unique/ SR 7625 in burn rate * ) powder, ~1100 fps, 28% fill, 19129psi chamber pressure, 100% burn.

500gr cast bullet, 20" barrel
26.0gr of AP 70N powder, ~1100 fps, 17% fill, 6700psi chamber pressure, 100% burn.

*according to: http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

These all have prety darn low fill %'s, so not sure what to make of them.

C-

[cpileri]

more:

Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.

[cpileri]

Turbo,
You know i wasnt going to ream out mine to 3.5" but your idea that it makes it safer by designating the cartridges and preventing them from falling into a 'normal' 12ga is a good one.

Now I am considering it.

C-

[cpileri]

Only reason I list the Quickload 700NE loads is that i have some of the powders!
4759? not available. Accurate 1680? nope.
I do have some Reloader 7 though.
Problem is that a 3.9" 700NE case develops alot less pressure than an equivalently loaded 3" brass RMC 12ga case. Fill %'s are different, etc. So i wouldnt go there unless the data is tested.

Case capacity for a 700NE is 316.9 ccH2O (20.53 cubic cm)
for the 3.5" RMC brass 12ga= 300?
For the 3" RMC= 285?
(doing the math, of height 1.27cm x pi x 1.847 x 1.847= 13.6 ccH20 less) Somebody check my math. I'll go home tonight and start filling them w water and measuring, and will post back.

In any case, though the 700NE is actually a bit narrower, if we figure the same diameters, with the 3" brass beign ~75% case capacity; makes the 700NE have ~150% of the capacity of the 12ga 3", so if we just load the 700NE data into the 3" 12ga, the pressures will be +50% again as high. so 65gr of 4227 in the 3" will give 16,597psi.
Still OK pressures for this 20Kpsi platform.

Somebody check my math?

I do have some data for a 1000+gr HardCAST lead slug w ~48gr of 4227 in a 3" 12ga that generates a bit over 8300psi. Maybe thats a place to start?

Any help appreciated!

C-

[cpileri]

Here's a few commercially available 600gr (actually 602gr) slugs for the loads in posts #66 and #70, above. Just adding info, that's all!

http://bullmooseproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_10_15&products_id=33&zenid=14c47bfd9c1176e88531c00d96511900

http://bullmooseproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_9_13&products_id=9

No idea how they perform on game but still...
C-

[cpileri]

And of course, the big Kahuna (which may need paper patching for this purpose- or the worlds thinnest wad cup):

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/103259/woodleigh-bullets-700-nitro-express-700-diameter-1000-grain-bonded-weldcore-round-nose-soft-point-box-of-25

Sure would like to be able to use THESE!!!

C-

[hubel458]

Another great deal with going to 3.5" chamber is so much
more room to work with wads,seals, and our sabots.
The extra room makes using the larger amounts of slower
powder easier. In 3" plastic and seal and 1/8" felt wad with our
sabot, case holds about 80 gr of 4759.Could use up to about 90gr
In 3.5" case you can go with 1/4" felt wad and use more, a 100gr 4759.
Most of the slugs guys will use in sabot are lot lighter than
the 6-700gr fullbore slugs Greg and we first tested 4759 with.Ed

[hubel458]

As far as NEF for hairy loads--I can ream to 3.5" real cheap for you,
I only need barrel. Get a real thick slip on pad as Ajay says, and
leave the steel bar in the butt.

AND Drill two more holes in the butt of 5/8" and about 9 deep
stack full of the 58cal slugs that you get for the sabots,
aned epoxy them in. If careful you can get 3 weight holes
I even weight forearm and use a barrel band/clamp on front of
forearm Gets gun to 12-14 lbs. Shoots like a
dream even with 7-8000 ft lb loads.Ed

[cpileri]

Dear Mr. Hubel,
So I can send you the barrel for reaming? How much?

And, LEAVE the factory bar in the buttstock? just curious, does it perform some structural function, not just add weight?

Any particular barrel clamp/band that fits well and doesnt look like a garden hose clamp?

Thanks fro the tips!
C-

[turbo1889]

I would highly discourage any attempted use of H110 powder in 12ga. slug loads, or any guage bigger then 410-bore for that matter. H110 is a powder that has blown up a lot of guns that are a lot stronger and built for a lot more pressure then shotguns are made for and it is hang-fire loads caused by reductions in powder charge that it blows stuff up with. Are you absolutely sure that your going to get full ignition and not a hang-fire in the much larger volume of a shotgun shell with that stuff? How are you going to be sure your load is hot enough to not have a hang-fire? In magnum revolver loads with that powder they say not to ever reduce the load more then 3% or there is a danger of having a hang-fire and then a detonation that will blow up your revolver. How are you going to hit a 3% wide safe window on the charge level with your first load test?

Those odds are too steep for me !!!

[hubel458]

We tested VV110 and it worked about like 4759.

H110 was dangerous wouldn't ignite dependably,
in large diameter cases.Don't use it.Don't use
AA1680, same problem.And that goes for 700NE
as well as 12ga. Only rifle powders to use that ignite
right in large 12ga size cases with shotgun primers
are 4759, VV110,RE17, and surplus 7383.
And shotgun primers are stronger than rifle primers.
That is why Bertram made 700NE cases with BMG primers
so guys wouldn't have to use starter powdwers.

The bar in NEF butt is for weight, and if you replace with lead shot
it is ok except with the airspace in shot you won't get anymore weight,
thus the need for extra holes full of lead slugs or bars.For a band on
forearm I use lower band off of 1914-17 Enfield, pics in 12ga FH thread on different guns.

I can ream to 3.5" and pay shipping/ins back to you
on the barrel for 90 bucks.Ed.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Cpileri,
1. first of all you are an Elite Musketeer brother,
2. you are very special to this family as already we Musketeer's are very very few,
3. We can't affort to have you get hurt.
4. were the only one that stood up for the Musketeer's and put saur milk aside!

I like that fact that you are adventurous but please play it safe ! ! !
I have been watching you quietly but did not want to say anything, I'm glad Turbo is correcting you.

Having a 400 HP motor on your car does not mean you burn your tires,
extra margin for safety is good just in case.

A lot of stuff on the net, WATCH-OUT BROTHER, Cpileri.

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots

[cpileri]

No worries!
I mean, I am glad you are worrying about me, but don't think I am going to try any funky loads without confirmation of pressure testing. I'm not guessing with a possible grenade near my face.

Thanks Turbo and Hubel for the admonition, not that I can find any H110 or AA1680 or any other powders anyway. I will keep an eye out for some 4759, VV110,RE17, and surplus 7383; and a P14-17 Enfield Lower barrel band.

Ed, PM coming!
C-

[cpileri]

And Ajay! Didnt mean to forget you! THANKS for caring abt my safety.

No, the crankiest loads I have pressure data for are:
that 1000+gr cast slug w IMR-4227, charge from 48-54gr, running 950-1050fps at 8300-10,300psi.
and

I am sure some modern reloading manuals have whopper 2-oz load data that can be extrapolated to slug data, but my 880gr slug data uses longshot (28.5gr) for subsonic and ~8300psi, and 4759 at 63-65gr for 1500+fps at 15-17000psi.

Thats as heavy as i am willing to go at this time, since the data is verified.


Of course I have the hull and wad data to go with these.

C-

[cpileri]

For example, the 3.5" data on the online Hodgdon center lists 2.25oz loads:
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A Fed. 12S3 32 13,700 PSI 1150fps
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A Rem. RXP 31 13,200 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12 31 13,700 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P Fed. 12S3 33 12,900 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P Rem. RXP 33 12,600 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 2 1/4 oz. Longshot Rem. 209P WAA12 33 13,400 PSI 1150

and 3", 2-oz loads from Alliant's online data:
12 Gauge
•3-in. Federal High Power Plastic with 7/16 Fiber Base Wad

(ounces) Velocity (fps) Primer Powder Wad Grains Approx. psi
2 1,150 Fed 209A Blue Dot SP 12 33 11,400

C-

Running pretty reasonale pressures considering the NEF can take 20Kpsi.

Also, later tonight i will be rummaging thru Graeme Wright's book for Paradox and 12-bore loads since most of them are right around 20Kpsi using 750-ish-gr slugs!
C-

[cpileri]

OK, so the paradox loads are not too exciting. Similar (or identical) to what I've posted before.

But here's somethin interesting: it has to do with bigger case=lower pressure for a given powder charge and weight projectile. A 900gr 600 Nitro Express load is listed. The NE projo is .62 and case has much less capacity than a 12ga 3" or 3.5". Would the powder charge under a .729 slug in a 12ga Big Shot (like we're discussing) be worthwhile to explore. I know that ignition reliablility matters alot, and one of the powders they use in the 600NE is 4381 which is unreliable at less than 100% fill in big cases. But they did list other powders, including Holy Black. Wondering if I should post the info just for grins...

And the search for load data continues!

C-

[cpileri]

Do you all know of any barrel bands that will fir the forearm and the heavy barrel without having to mod the wood much or preferably not at all?
I'd like to maintain as much structural integrity as possible.
Also, I'm thinking of using thos elittle tungsten pinewood derby weights to weight the forearm. i only got one hole in the stock so i figure i can use the more-dense tungsten and get more weight out front; which means i'll need a strong barrel band.
C-

[hubel458]

You should do extra holes in butt and add most weight there.
With bull barrel more is needed in back and more weight there gives better
balance, and proper balance is almost.as important to handle recoil as weight.
3 things needed with good loadsm weight, balance and thick pads,Ed

[cpileri]

Will try. I just don't want my stock to split.
C-

[hubel458]

We've never split nef stock. They are all tough hardwood or plastic.
Got 10ga SB2 here with original wood stock weighted in the butt to 13 lbs.
Gun has the 32" factory heavy bull barrel and shoots 690gr on 10ga VP100 wad
over 2200 and 900 gr fullbore 1900 plus.Never even works gets loose.Ed

[cpileri]

I’m sifting through the big thread mining out all the NEF data of course. Please correct any mistakes I make!
I really should get all this into a notebook somewhere, neat in one place for easy reference(*).

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load levels and velocities as 4759.
NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug in drillpress.
82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps, with 730gr,
78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in 3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.

3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small primers. My chamber is lengthened for our
long brass case, so they work fine..... With 600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227, got 2100.

BPI sabot in 3.5" plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps, BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter. With a .512" slug it measures . 727"

double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?7916-12GA-FH-Slug-Tester&p=483903&viewfull=1#post483903


(*) You know what I am thinking: this situation is analogous to the 45-70 which has ‘levels’ of pressures: trapdoor <18kpsi, modern, Marlin 1895 level at 35kpsi, Ruger No1, and Siamese Mauser at 50lpsi plus. To the point where some advocate renaming the heavy loads at 457 Magnum or something.
Similarly, we have the 12ga and the 12ga FH levels.
So for the 12ga we have: SAAMI spec at 11.5kpsi,(14kpsi for 3.5”),
NEF Ultra Spec at 25kpsi, (Encore prohunter 12ga and it will do 90% of the NEF)
Savage 210 w heavy barrel at 35kpsi,
Winchester 87 w heavy barrel, and finally
the Borchardt falling block/Zoli Sportster 100Kpsi-no-that’s-not-a-misprint-don’t worry-you-wont-ever-load-it-that-heavy-level of power.

[cpileri]

Thanks, Mr. Hubel!
Cuz i was looking at one of these:


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/791343/choate-monte-carlo-buttstock-h-and-r-nef-single-shot-shotguns-rifles-muzzleloaders-synthetic-black
Is it hollow? Will it fit a H&R Ultra Slug Hunter? If it s hollow, you could fill it up w a lot of ballast for added weight!
C-

[cpileri]

Have to include a couple ones that piqued my interest even though I lack the powder or some other component:
Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter (modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter ) will handle these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic 3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads.
Can't get no more under the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers.
With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got over 1900.
With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600.
This is 24" barrel, so longer barrels will get more.
In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion.
The 870gr load is max peak pressure of 16,000 psi.

"Un-Modified Modern Factory 3" Chamber - Bull Barrel Only
For Lymans (edit: 525gr) use 92gr of 4759 or 95 gr 4227.
For 600gr Dixie use 90gr of 4759 or 92gr of 4227.
For 730 gr Dixie or equivalent use 85gr 4759 or 87gr of 4227.
For 870 gr Full bore slugs use 80 gr 4759 or 82 gr of 4227.

Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
R-17 powder loads are pretty much roll crimp only. Two reasons for this, first roll crimping allows more space in-side the hull for powder which is desperately needed for R-17 loads and secondly that powder needs good tight start pressure to get the fire started.




More w powders I don’t have (and still everyone is out of 4759!) but 1000gr- Man, don’t you just want to TRY it at least once!?!?!
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer, with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.
These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.
1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder

Interest in the 12ga H&R/NEF seems to have petered out by post 300 in the Big thread. I’ll keep looking, esp since…well, I can use the data..but I imagine others can use it too since the USH is off-the-rack available.

[cpileri]

Well, I just re-read the WHOLE 12ga FH Slug tester thread. Picked out a few more load details specific to the NEF-strength guns.
For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55.
I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.(440gr Minie ball in Hubel Sabot)
Or…
For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

With no cards under slugs,
But with good powder seals and with Alliant Steel good 1/4" minimum cushion wads.

And of course:
With Steel in 3.5" (RMC) brass case I go to 65gr with 440gr in sabot.
And Use x12x seal and white felt wads to fill space. Nitro wads work.

I think i am going to do what I said, make a nice table/chart w all the load data I mined on it for easy reference.
C-

[cpileri]

And here they are, for easier reading.

12ga FH loads (up to 25kpsi, in heavy barrels only- specifically Ultra Slug Hunter, unless otherwise noted)

Plastic 2.75” case
40-50gr A.Steel, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
(in any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading, pump, or break action gun with same muzzle of modern steel with MINIMUM .93" muzzle diameter): up to 115gr Re-17, X12X, felt wads, [437gr BPI sabot slug or Brenneke KO @ 1900+fps// 520gr Lyman Shotcup slug @ 1850fps// 600gr hard Dixie slug @1800fps// 870gr hardcast @1600fps] , all loads max pressure 16Kpsi

Plastic case 3”
Rem hi brass, IMR 4759: 90gr, 600gr Dixie slug, roll crimp, 1800+fps, 14575psi
80gr IMR 4759, X12X, 1/8” felt wad, Hubel Sabot w/slug
Fed High Pwr 7/16 Fiber Base: 2oz (880gr) Fed 209A 33grBlueDot SP 12 1150fps 11,400psi
95gr IMR 4227 (or 92gr 4759), 209 primer, 525gr Lyman shotcup slug
92gr IMR 4227 (or 90gr 4759), 209 primer, 600gr Dixie slug,
82gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 730gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1650fps
78gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 800gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1600fps
74-75gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 870gr fullbore slug, roll crimp, 1500fps
45-55gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot

Plastic case 3.5”
Up to 100gr IMR 4759, X12X, 1/4” felt wad, Hubel Sabot
105gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 600gr Dixie slug, 2100fps
120gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 437gr BPI sabot slug, 2400fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A Fed. 12S3 13,700PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A Rem. RXP 13,200PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 32gr Longshot Fed. 209A WAA12 13,700PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P Fed. 12S3 12,900PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P Rem. RXP 12,600PSI 1150fps
990gr lead shot. 33gr Longshot Rem. 209P WAA12 13,400PSI 1150fps

Magtec 2.5” brass
(none specifically listed, but safe ‘lesser’-level loads that fit from can be used)

RMC 3” brass
AA 1680: 125gr, 600gr hard Dixie Slug, .135card, 2x1/2” lubed felt wads1850fps
Re-7: 132gr, 600gr Dixie slug, .135card, 1x1/2”+1x1/4” lubed felt wad,1850fps
45-55gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
(also For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel
For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel

Modified 50bmg brass 3.07”
RL-25: 215gr, 600gr hard Dixie slug, 1700fps

RMC 3.5” brass
140gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, 437gr BPI sabot slug, 2600fps
85gr IMR 4227, 209 primer, X12X, 2 (two) x 1oz Brenneke KO slugs stacked, 1600fps
200gr Re-17, 715gr Jacketed fullbore slug,roll crimp, 2500fps
220gr Re-17, 420gr in BPI sabot, roll crimp, 2900fps
50-65gr A.Steel, X12X, felt, Fio616 or magnum primer, 440gr slug in Hubel Sabot
2(two)x.570-577 round balls in Hubel sabot, 35-45gr A.Steel

Top RE17 loads in NEF- Don't go below 100gr of Re-17 in 12ga cases!
3.5" RMC brass--385Gr JKT --220gr Re17
3.5" RMC brass--Hubel Sabot with 400gr --- 220ge RE17
3.5" RMC brass--715 gr JKT and 720 gr hard lead-- 200gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--870gr hard lead- 180gr RE17
3.5" RMC brass--1040gr hard lead - 170gr Re17


Modified 50bmg brass 3.9”- not for NEF!!!!
(none specifically listed for NEF as chamber reamed to 3.5” max)
1000gr jacketed, 15gr Blue Dot+230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 15gr Blue Dot+270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 15gr Blue Dot+250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 15gr Blue Dot+250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs

[cpileri]

OK, grafs has some 4759- but only in 8Lb lots. Anyone in Central texas want to split an order? I dont really want 8 lbs- I'd need to order the rest of the few thousand Hubel Sabots to load all that!
Seriously, anyone want to go in?
C-

[cpileri]

Almost forgot one: 3.5"RMC brass, 2(two)x.570-577 round balls in Hubel sabot, 35-45gr A.Steel

[cpileri]

Dear Sir Turbo1889,
Can you elaborate a bit more on the Re-17 loads you mentioned?



Also, with the big bull barrel that gun is equipped with you can run even slower burning powder loads - namely Reloader-17 loads where your minimum start charge is 100 grains :shock: with all but the heaviest slugs and depending on slug weight you top out at about 135 grains. (Get the info from Hubels 12GAFH thread).

Are you saying that given the NEF USH and a 3.5" chamber, using 100gr-135gr of Re-17, I can load... what/...ANY slug weight? or the huge range mentioned in the Big thread: i.e. Mr. Hubel lists slugs from 375gr-to-1000gr jacketed and 1043gr hardcast.

And why is 100gr the minimum? i am not familiar w this powder, and i know some are not safe w reduced loads. Please elaborate.

it wouldbe very nice to have a simple formula to use for load development. Something I didnt think was exactly possible.

C-

[hubel458]

Re17 needs minimum amount in a large diameter cases like
12ga just like 4759 and Alliant Steel.

With 3.5" cases you have more flexibility as you can use thicker
felt wads to moderate peak pressures.
With real heavy slugs you'd
use less, down like 100-110gr, real light 375Gr slug all you could get in
with seal and 1/2" wad....................
but in 12ga the best combo for good trajectory and good high
energy on the target are lighter bullets
in sabots and medium full bore slugs like 600 to 750 gr.

Only thing we add to figures now, are we found that 4227 does not
ignite good when the shell has been cooled long enough so
that powder get real cold. So I don't use it.Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks!
Re-17 from 375-1000gr; that's versatility!
So if you were to pick one powder (*) for the 3.5' NEF USH, using 209 primers, RMC brass; would you pick 4759 or re-17?
Or something else?
(Basically, i am going to grab whichever becomes available, but just for my getting started out before buying it in case quantities...)
C-
(*) for heavy loads, that is. Other powders for lower psi loads.

[hubel458]

Re17 for the heavier stuff, and
4759 for real light stuff like less than 400gr.
You can use Re17 for super light AL cored bullet
but could get it faster with 4759 I think.ED

[cpileri]

You are indeed costing me money, Sir!
(in the best way, of course)
C-

[cpileri]

Update on load number 1 from its intended platform here;
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?206948-Fitted-roundball-load-in-Baikal-12ga-results
C-

[cpileri]

Updates here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207869-Test-of-Hubel-Sabot-and-other-ammo-with-pics


C-

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Brother Cpileri, indeed worked hard and did his homework and researched.

In his Fond Memories.

Warmest regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots