Question about Small Motor to run lathe SLOWLY when threading

[DoctorBill]

I have an ENCO 9 x 20 Lathe.

http://s12.postimg.org/tm6e88xa5/ENCO_Lathe_Pic.jpg

The lowest it will run at is about 130 rpm.

For someone NEW at this "Hobby", I am squat afraid to thread even
at that rpm ! Things happen too fast for my 70 yr old 'brain'.

Looking at the Pulley and Gear system on this machine, I am wondering
if I can put on a small variable speed electric motor JUST FOR THREADING
SLOWLY ?

DC Motors are quite costly and then the controllers add even more to that.

There are AC motors that use brushes and are therefor controllable with
an inexpensive Router Speed Controller ($20 at Harbor Freight - or less
with that 20% off coupon).

Such a motor is a Sewing Machine Motor (SMM) - any small motor with brushes
that doesn't spin at high speed.

If I took the belt off of my 3/4 hp Lathe motor and slapped on a small SMM,
I suspect that that motor with the speed reduction and only threading would
turn my lathe.

They certainly turn sewing machines slowly - with a resistor on a foot pedal !
An electronic Speed Controller with a SCR should do a much better job !

I 'could' take the key out of the Aluminum Pulley (Red Arrow) turn it around
and put the SMM below that and add even further reduction !
And use the big motor shaft as the Pulley Shaft w/o the key....
I NEVER use that Aluminum Pulley (Red Arrow) anyway....

http://s7.postimg.org/xy53xnqcb/ENCO_Gears_Pulleys.jpg

Right now the reduction from the motor to the Spindle is 12.5 : 1.
With that Aluminum Pulley, I could reduce it to 36:1 and REALLY slow this
bugger down.

http://s12.postimg.org/es9d4ivzx/Idea.jpg

e-bay (under Sewing Machine Motors) has ALL SORTS of small motors
AND sewing machine belts of every description !

I think this would work for LOW LOAD WORK - LIKE THREADING....

The whole Shebang would cost under $50 methinks.
If it doesn't work I can use the SMM for some other hair brained scheme !


DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

The sewing machine motor idea.... won't work. That little motor won't have enough torque to turn all that mass.

There is, somewhere, a counter-shaft/pulley modification for the 7x that slows the speed way down but at the moment I can't find it. There is also a hand-crank modification for the 7x for threading up to a shoulder. There is so much information on the 7x if you would spend some time googling you'd find it all.

SLOWING DOWN THE SPEED.... I got my lathe down to about 85 rpm.
http://varmintal.com/alath.htm

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=6602.0

There's been so much modification work done on the 7x that it's fairly safe to say you couldn't think up anything new that hasn't already been done or debunked.

Dutch

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - I wondered if that shaft turned easily, so I slipped off the Toothed Belt
and turned the wheel with everything set up to run the spindle AND feed screw.
It turned quite easily !
Just for cutting threads, it ought to turn....a 36 to 1 reduction is quite a lot !

BTW - I made a hand crank already....but Electricity is nicer.

BTW #2 - The ENCO Motor is 3/4 HP, single phase, 120 volt and can't be slowed down.

I am pig headed, Dutchman....so I am probably going to try it anyway.

If it fails to turn, I'll buy you a Beer.

If it works, what will you get me ?

DoctorBill

[theperfessor]

Can you run the spindle in reverse? If so, then just flip the tool upside down. Start at the shoulder and feed away from it when threading. I'd spend my time figuring out how to make a tool holder to hold the tool upside and on center. It's harder to get a good surface finish and it takes more power if you go too slow.

I always do that to cut all internal and many external threads on a manual lathe. Don't ruin as may parts and crash as many tools that way.

There may be a speed control/motor out there that will do what you want, but there are other ways to do what you need to do, which is to cut threads to a blank shoulder. Just my opinion.

[Dutchman]

I am pig headed, Dutchman....so I am probably going to try it anyway.

I grew up hearing "bull headed Dutchman", directed at my father. Later after he was gone what I heard was, "you're just like your father", to which I replied, "thank you". :)



If it fails to turn, I'll buy you a Beer.

Make sure you try it with the carriage engaged and cutting tool making chips through the entire cycle until the thread is complete... not just scratching the surface of the material with the point. Like a 1"-8 thread.

Only beer I drink is Moosehead.



If it works, what will you get me ?


I already turned you on to one of the greatest books ever for a home shop, the Alexander Weygers book. Other than that I'll get you 30 years of home machinist experience to comment on your queries every time you ask a question here....

...whether you want it or not[smilie=s:

[DoctorBill]

Not being educatamalized much in Electric Motors....are there any other REALLY REALLY CHEAP
Ubiquitous Brushed A/C Motors in other everyday machines besides Sewing Machines.
Sewing machine motors are dog dirt cheap !

What else uses brushed A/C motors. Router motors turn way too fast for what I want to do.

If I remember right, some older Fans used Brush A/C Motors.

D/C Machining Motors are terribly Expensive. Can't do THAT on the cheap.

How about Automotive Heater Fan Motors (Junk Yard) ?
I could run the motor off of a 12v battery or a Battery Charger.

There HAS to be some way I can do this w/o spending a fortune (which I don't have).
That way I can buy more guns....just bought a Martini-Henry 303 conversion off GunBroker
for $375 ! From a collector (or his widow ?) selling his collection off !

http://s10.postimg.org/6am8lqtsp/Rifle_A.jpg

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

Steve Bedair has a very well known site for 9x lathes.. and he's a gun guy.

http://bedair.org/9x20camlock/9x20project.html

I have the Enco version of this mill.
http://bedair.org/Mill/6760mill.html

variable speed conversion
http://bedair.org/Tmotor/Tmotor.html

[DoctorBill]

That's really nice, but what does a 2 HP Treadmill Motor Cost ?

I know your answer...GO LOOK IT UP !

Any leads....?

I think you's gots more moolah than I'se gots....

DoctorBill

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DP-FIT-LIFE-BIONIX-TREADMILL-DRIVE-MOTOR-DC-120V-1HP-37035400-5P8DJY1-BD6219-/360640938671?_trksid=p2047675.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555003%26algo%3DPW.CAT%26ao%3D1%26 asc%3D142%26meid%3D7686457448821411527%26pid%3D100 010%26prg%3D1076%26rk%3D5%26sd%3D290914771383%26

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Treadmill-DC-Motor-Wind-Turbine-Generator-2-5HP-/290914771383?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bbdf21b7

This is slowly working it's way up in cost.....but I'm looking !
BTW - Who is more stubborn - a Dutchman or a German ?

http://s4.postimg.org/kk5wc9qjh/Idiot_Bill_2.jpg

[Norbrat]

Not being educatamalized much in Electric Motors....are there any other REALLY REALLY CHEAP
Ubiquitous Brushed A/C Motors in other everyday machines besides Sewing Machines.
Sewing machine motors are dog dirt cheap !

What else uses brushed A/C motors. Router motors turn way too fast for what I want to do.

If I remember right, some older Fans used Brush A/C Motors.

D/C Machining Motors are terribly Expensive. Can't do THAT on the cheap.

How about Automotive Heater Fan Motors (Junk Yard) ?
I could run the motor off of a 12v battery or a Battery Charger.

There HAS to be some way I can do this w/o spending a fortune (which I don't have).
That way I can buy more guns....just bought a Martini-Henry 303 conversion off GunBroker
for $375 ! From a collector (or his widow ?) selling his collection off !

DoctorBill

What about a drill? http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-variable-speed-reversible-hammer-drill-68169.html

[DoctorBill]

Those kind of Drill Motors aren't for long duty running....are they ?

Not that I'd be running it long for Threading....Hmmmmm....interesting idea.
Already 120 volt and some are variable speed, and reversible too !

Garage Sale Items - Sooper Dooper Cheap, also.

Only downer - noisy.

DoctorBill

[colt1960]

Now you on the right track with the tread mill thought. You can pick them up cheap at flee markets and garage sales. Use the controller and every thing. If you get lucky, some come with up to 3 1/2 hp motors. Both of the ones I purchased were 1 1/2 hp. still big enough for the job. 15.00 for one used and 25.00 for the other.Good luck with your project. Rick!

[DoctorBill]

Flea Markets and garage Sales - my haunting grounds.

I knew if I came on this Forum, that I would get good ideas !

Thanks fellas. Keep them coming.....I ain't done yet !

Every day that you wake up is a Good Day !

Today was a Good Day !

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

I think you's gots more moolah than I'se gots....

Bet me then be prepared to pay up! I'm not even getting SS yet. Six more months. I live in my daughter's basement with a bag of fritos and a machine shop.



BTW - Who is more stubborn - a Dutchman or a German ?

I would put my $$$ on a Dutchman being more stubborn.

Prudent shopping for a freebie treadmill will yield a motor and speed controller.

Dutch

[DoctorBill]

OK Dutchman - now I actually have a "mission" when I go out garage Sailing (?)
every weekend with my wife and kids.

Has become a 'hobby' and even my son and his fiance look forward to it.

AMAZING the things you come across ! Treasures being almost tossed away !

Maybe someday I'll come across my NEXT rifle that I am lusting after - a .577 Snider.

DoctorBill

[country gent]

At the first Job shop I worked all the old flat belt equipment ( well almost all) was converted to electric motors. The electric motor was a 3 belt pulley to a 3 belt pulley on an old manual transmisson ( I beleive one or 2 were out of lawn mowers/garden tractors) the the out put from that powered the lathe. Gave you 6 more speeds and reverse. They ran very slow and used the standard electric motor. Maybe an old washing machine gear box would work also. I have for years put the tool in upside down and thread to tailstock. But I like to thread around 300 rpm depnding on size and stock. Use a good cutting oil and practice. cut a couple practice threads before doing the good one. I got all the weird thread forms at work buttress square acme double lead ect ect. I cut a 1/2" 20 double lead internal one night for a break down. Talk about fun first 10 lead to finish rotate 180* then second 10 lead to finish all in a .4 something bore.

[colt1960]

Hey doc, another thing the Ive seen that works also is an older transmission from a riding lawn mower. Connect the one side of the transmission to the pulley and the other runs to the motor on the lathe. just change gears to achieve the desired speed. Find some that works on them and you should be able to get one under 20.00. no shipping or tax. Rick!

[wyattjames]

one of the common conversions is useing a tread mill motor so that it is variable speed , you see this conversion on alot of grizzly nines

[DoctorBill]

Colt1960 - Lord God - A Riding Lawn Mower Transmission !

I would have never thought of THAT !

DoctorBill

[wyattjames]

one of the common conversions is useing a tread mill motor so that it is variable speed , you see this conversion on alot of grizzly nines , yahoo groups has the how to i beleave under the nines there is a wiring mod on the treadmill control board , i have used that group for mods on my grizzly great source of info .

[arjacobson]

Can you run the spindle in reverse? If so, then just flip the tool upside down. Start at the shoulder and feed away from it when threading. I'd spend my time figuring out how to make a tool holder to hold the tool upside and on center. It's harder to get a good surface finish and it takes more power if you go too slow.

I always do that to cut all internal and many external threads on a manual lathe. Don't ruin as may parts and crash as many tools that way.

There may be a speed control/motor out there that will do what you want, but there are other ways to do what you need to do, which is to cut threads to a blank shoulder. Just my opinion.

Again I agree with the professor. I have started doing all my threading this way and it is actually much easier. With your higher rpm you should get a very nice finish also.

[Norbrat]

Can you run the spindle in reverse? If so, then just flip the tool upside down. Start at the shoulder and feed away from it when threading. I'd spend my time figuring out how to make a tool holder to hold the tool upside and on center. It's harder to get a good surface finish and it takes more power if you go too slow.


You can also put the tool at the back of the job when working in reverse, that way you don't need to turn the tool over and try to find a way to get it on centre.

[454PB]

Back when I was still working, we had a Smithy 3-in-1 lathe and a very old South Bend. The Smithy would supposedly cut threads, using the variable speed D.C. motor, but I fought it constantly because it would stall out at low speed. I did all my threading on the South Bend.....it had a back gear, and some serious threading torque.

[theperfessor]

Cutting metal is a little like water skiing. There is a certain minimum speed (which varies because of ton of factors) above which you use less power and get a better surface finish, just like getting pulled up out of the water and gliding on the surface. Too slow and your bogging down and you'll see increased tearing and take more horsepower to remove the same amount of material.

I have setup a cutoff tool on the far end of the cross slide mounted upside down. It throws the part down instead of up when it cuts off.

I can see lots of uses for having a slower spindle speed - spring winding comes to mind - so I'm not trying to be a downer on the idea. But I've cut iron for a long time and learned how to get around certain problem such as threading to a shoulder, internally or externally.

Even if you slow things down to just a few RPM you still will have problems threading to a blank shoulder/face. If you take multiple passes you will have to have a small breakout groove. The smallest breakout groove is simply the profile of the cutter. If you always start the tool at the breakout (more properly the feed-in) groove and feed clear you will be able to get as close a possible to any shoulder/face.

I'm not a very coordinated person and I've had to learn how to overcome my snail-like reflexes.

[theperfessor]

Norbrat you're right about moving tool to back side. I was just looking at four way tool post in the illustration and thinking it might be easier to put tool in upside down than to get tool holder and tool on back side of part. But either way would work, it would depend on the exact hardware and it's dimensions. And a different type of tool holder similar to ones used for internal threading can also be used if the threaded length isn't too long and the threads are on the right end of the piece.

[Norbrat]

Even if you slow things down to just a few RPM you still will have problems threading to a blank shoulder/face. If you take multiple passes you will have to have a small breakout groove. The smallest breakout groove is simply the profile of the cutter. If you always start the tool at the breakout (more properly the feed-in) groove and feed clear you will be able to get as close a possible to any shoulder/face.

I'm not a very coordinated person and I've had to learn how to overcome my snail-like reflexes.

Yah, me too, especially the unco part!

I bent a .22LR barrel once while trying to thread it for an (ahem) "sound moderator", hitting the stop button while trying to back out the tool at same time. Yep, you guessed it, stop button was no problem but when you crank the tool vigorously in instead of out, you end up with a banana at the end! :groner:

Oh well, just parted it off 4" and tried again.

Luckily I was given the rifle for free. :-P

[oldred]

The Treadmill parts are the way to go with this and these things are commonly used to replace the motor on lathes such as that one, you will find it to be a lot more useful than just for threading, high torque and very durable and gives you a variable speed for all your lathe work! Treadmills are easy to find, check Craigslist and you can usually find a couple with worn out belts (?, the wide strip that the user walks on) for next to nothing and in fact I have seen two recently in the "free" section. With a treadmill you not only get a decent quality 100% duty cycle (VERY important and not all DC motors have a 100% duty cycle) high torque motor but you also get a good motor controller, cheap resistor motor controllers will give you fits since they are linear and you will get speed/voltage drop with increased/decreased loads.

[DoctorBill]

I am convinced about the Treadmill motors.

NOW comes the fun part - learning about Treadmill brands, models, etc and value.

Craig's list shows all sorts of them, but from looking at the motors on e-bay,
some motors are very bizarre in shape ! Some are not motorized....

I need to learn the best Brands, Models, Years...like buying a used car......

Any help from anyone - who has done this conversion - concerning which Treadmills
have the best motors (Shape, HP, controllers, etc), would help a lot !

Most people have this notion that they can sell their used, worn Treadmill for nearly
what they paid new ! Soccer Moms.

It is a shame that the Chinese don't just put DC Motors on these Lathes when they
manufacture them.

DoctorBill

http://spokane.craigslist.org/search/foa?zoomToPosting=&query=treadmill&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

* Pro Form 595LE Treadmill $125

* Weslo 10.0 motorized treadmill $140

* Lifestyler Treadmill 8.0 $100

[country gent]

Be happy all the lathes Ive looked at recently have had 3 phase motors on them. meaning a new motor or phase converter. One was a very nice Monarch 1960s era. digital read out, taper attachment, 14" swing 48" between centers 1 1/2" throat. Number 4or 5 Morse taper head stock number 3 tail stock. Power tail stock even. Had follower rest and steady rest with it 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuks, collet set with nose adapter (puts the tighning ring at the front of the head stock) Was a gear head machine no variable speeds. All tight and gibs still had alot of adjustment. The XY read out was fairly new and had 5 tool memory. A great machine but the 3 phase motor would have been a pain.

[HollowPoint]

I am convinced about the Treadmill motors.

NOW comes the fun part - learning about Treadmill brands, models, etc and value.

Craig's list shows all sorts of them, but from looking at the motors on e-bay,
some motors are very bizarre in shape ! Some are not motorized....

I need to learn the best Brands, Models, Years...like buying a used car......

Any help from anyone - who has done this conversion - concerning which Treadmills
have the best motors (Shape, HP, controllers, etc), would help a lot !

Most people have this notion that they can sell their used, worn Treadmill for nearly
what they paid new ! Soccer Moms.

It is a shame that the Chinese don't just put DC Motors on these Lathes when they
manufacture them.

DoctorBill

http://spokane.craigslist.org/search/foa?zoomToPosting=&query=treadmill&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

* Pro Form 595LE Treadmill $125

* Weslo 10.0 motorized treadmill $140

* Lifestyler Treadmill 8.0 $100



I recently sold my Grizzly 9x19 but, while I owned it I used it to re-barrel my Enfield rifle. I had the same problems with threading that you've mentioned. That threading dial was spinning way to fast to be able to get my cutting tool in the same position with every pass.

I thought about doing exactly what you've mentioned on you replies. I did the research so I know it's definitely doable. My problem is that I'm retarded when it comes to electrical wiring and such.

In the end I used the threading suggestions given by some of the guys over on the 9x20Lathe forum. It worked out real well for me and I didn't have to alter my machine in any way.

I seem to recall you making up a "Crank-Handle" for your bench-top lathe at one point. Can't you use that to do your threading or do you just want to upgrade to something with a variable speed setup? In the long run such a setup would be more advantageous than a "Crank-Handle"

I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I've seen videos of a guy who actually added a small VFD to the end of the lead screw that drives the feed only. His was an older lathe that allowed for that lead screw to be disengaged; thus allowing that smaller motor to feed at a slower rate. Only the feed rate was affected. The factory motor was left as it was.

HollowPoint

[DoctorBill]

My machinist friend, Gary, said he has a 3-phase motor and the converter.

I didn't want to phart around with 3-phase, but now it seems like maybe
a good option.

I know zip about any motor above a simple A/C motor or 2 cycle model
airplane motors.....never got edicashmalized in electronics or electricity
other than getting zapped changing light sockets !

Going slowly now seems like a better idea than rushing off half cocked and
screwing things up.
No hurry....I can thread with my hand crank - it is just a PITA to do it.

I can barely thread with the hand crank (didn't have the proper 29° angle
until I fingered THAT out recently) so - being prone to mistakes - I am going
to look into D/C and 3-Phase.

I understand D/C but 3-phase seems like Quantum Mechanics and Star Trek.
I don't want to get phaser'ed by my Lathe ! lol

D/C has + and - wires (red & black) and a DPDT switch reverses the motor,
SCR's and chopped waves rectified - but THAT is about it, folks !
My Harbor Freight Router Speed Controller is SCR controlled - I Think....

Trying to read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_converter
and it talks about Rectumfiers (my Dad's term - HE was an Electrical Engineer for Hallicrafter's
Radio) and Inverters....Lord !
Induction, Hysteresis, Capacitors, IGBT's, Waveforms, Harmonic Distortion...
Give me a break ! Plug it in and Turn it on/off....that's enough for me....

DoctorBill

[oldred]

All the lathes Ive looked at recently have had 3 phase motors on them. meaning a new motor or phase converter.

A great machine but the 3 phase motor would have been a pain.



I didn't want to phart around with 3-phase



Hey guys a three phase motor can be a plus instead of a pain! Three phase converters work well but of course add considerable expense just to get what you would have if you had a three phase power source BUT if you use a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) unit those three phase motors are the cat's meow! When a lathe or other three phase machine is connected to one of these boxes instead of a simple phase converter all of a sudden instead of just running at one speed in one direction it will now be variable speed with full low speed torque, have simple reverse switching, dynamic braking and smooth low speed starting, that old Monarch that CG mentioned would have learned all sorts of new tricks with the addition of a VFD and this is from a simple single phase power source.

[Cane_man]

BTW - Who is more stubborn - a Dutchman or a German ?

http://s4.postimg.org/kk5wc9qjh/Idiot_Bill_2.jpg

LOL... the Swiss are more stubborn, but we are peaceful!

[Crosbyman]

You don't need a phase converter, just buy you a VFD selected for 230 vole single phase input, and 230 volt 3 phase output, then you can have a useful speed range of 6 to 1 while maintaining enough torque to do the work.

[DoctorBill]

A friend of mine just told me that there is a working "WESLO" Motorized Tread
Mill for $50 at a local Goodwill Store. D/C Motor, Choke Coil and controller should
all be there.... He didn't know the model.

Here is an e-bay WESLO 2.5 hp D/C motor - The large ring shaped thing is a Fly Wheel, yes ?
Can it be removed easily ?

http://s19.postimg.org/fnifs7xnn/Weslo_2_HP_D_C_motor_ebay_70.jpg
What's with the two BLUE wires if it is D/C ?

I don't look forward to Learning about Tread Mills just to get a motor....

DoctorBill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Doctor Bill: Please read and re-read "the professor's" posts. He is giving you the simplest method of threading on an engine lathe that there is. There is no reason to go thru all of the falderall of changing motors and messing with phases and all of the other stuff you are entertaining.

All you do is put the threading tool into the tool holder with the point down. It is best to have the compound set in line with the bed of the lathe,,, which is the "Z" axis.

You turn the machine on and turn the tool into the cut at the beginning of where you would normally want the thread to stop, and make a relief cut. Then you back the tool out ans start making cuts a few thousanths deeper each pass until you get to depth.

On the threading dial there are numbered lines and un-numbered lines. For Even Number Threads you can engage on ANY line on any pass. For Odd Numbered Threads you engage on any "Numbered Line". For 1/2 threads (11 1/2) you engage on the same line.

Starting from the inside end of the thread and feeding out eliminates any possibility of crashing the machine, which is what you are trying to accomplish with hand cranks and aux motors etc.

Please just try to do what we are telling you to do, rather than reinventing the wheel. Maybe you could get somene to show you what we are talking about. It really ain't that hard.

Once you see for yourself, all thoughts of re-inventing the wheel wiil disappear.

Randy

[DoctorBill]

I bought the Motorized Tread Mill. Works....now to disassemble it.

http://s19.postimg.org/vbstqhs0z/2_HP_D_C_Motor_and_Controller_Board_41.jpg

DoctorBill

[bangerjim]

Fforget power all together!!!!!! I do lots of threading (both RH & LH) on my Southbend 9 precision toolroom quick change lathe and I ALWAYS do it manually. I built a handle that fits into the end of the spindle and expands a bolt in it to hold in place. Then Set the levers to desired TPI, adjust the crossfeed and compound dials to ZERO, make sure the compound is set at 29 degrees, and turn the spindle without power. Watch the thread dial and engage the halfnuts at the appropriate number(s). And you get unbelievable control and accuacy!

You will never find a motor to replace the olde hand crank. My lathe has a 1PH 230V 3ph VFD and I can get it down to less than 1 RPS at full 1HP, but the hand crank still offers more sennsitivity and feel.

That is also why I use "sensitive " drill chucks on my mills and presses also. No broken #80 drills or taps.......EVER!

I have been cutting threads for over 35 years like that without any problems. If you want a diagram of handle or more info, PM me.

[DoctorBill]

http://s19.postimg.org/mrenqo0tf/The_Whole_Ball_of_Wax.jpg

I made one long ago in a different thread on this Forum.

My friend is a 71 year old guy who has been a machinist since he was 17.
He put a D/C Motor on his Lathe many years ago.

As he said to me - "there are many different paths to get to the same place"
....or something like that......I am on my own path.

I have so many threads on this forum and people haven't seen them or they
come in part way thru.

So...I have a hand crank, I don't feel confident to use the threading dial, the
machine goes to fast for me (being new to Machining with a Lathe and Milling
device) and I want to put a slow speed motor on my Lathe.

I appreciate all the advice. I can't follow everyone's advice since some is
contradictory.....some goes a way I don't want to go right now........so
.....thanks guys ! I will keep it all in mind.

Do not be offended if I seem to ignore your advice.

DoctorBill

[oldred]

You will not regret that motor change even if you never again have the need to cut threads, it will make that little lathe much easier to use.

[theperfessor]

DoctorBill -

You're friend is right - "there are many different paths to get to the same place" - and we all have our point of view and background experience that is unique to us as individuals. I am never offended when I offer advice and someone decides to go a different way, and I hope that nobody gets offended when they offer me advice and I don't take it.

My background is a production machinist and mechanical/manufacturing engineer. It is rare when working for other people and using their equipment that you are allowed to modify or alter their machines. And I don't have all day to twiddle around cutting threads. Thus, I tend to think in terms of using what I have and using it as efficiently as possible. I learned the "traditional" way of threading under power by working from a shoulder to a free end, instead of threading (and crashing) into a shoulder. I just don't have the reflexes to do anything else.

All I'm saying is that you should do what you want to do. Other people may take offense, but not me. I am following this thread with interest, even if what you are doing isn't necessarily what or how I would address the same problem. I learn something all the time here!

[DoctorBill]

Here is what the Powered end of the Weslo Tread Mill looked like
with the Plastic Cover off.....Animal Hair coating everything !

http://s19.postimg.org/eixkebpyb/Motor_Controller_IN.jpg

I took the entire thing completely apart on my driveway pad.
Lot of nice tubing, bolts, a big black fiber fiber board that the tread slid
over, a tough tread strip, plastic feet and rollers.
Here are the goodies I wanted....

http://s19.postimg.org/4zsgylrtv/Motor_Controller_OUT.jpg

This PC Board goes for $133 on the Internet -
http://www.wesloparts.com/diagram_part_list.php?action=view&product_id=6061818&diagram_id=16555
http://s19.postimg.org/i434vy2oz/Controller_PC_Board_Top.jpg

The Input to the Controller (the "Console") is here and it looks like a bitch
to try to simplify.....then again - it might be a nice Lathe Control Input Panel !

The Console goes for $114 - http://www.wesloparts.com/diagram/16555
http://s19.postimg.org/t4t6gbc4j/Controller_Input_Board.jpg

Here is the Repairman's Guide Spec Sheet (Front & Back) which was in a plastic bag taped
inside the Console.....lot of nice information for anyone interested....

http://s19.postimg.org/odtayajab/Repairman_s_Spec_Sheet_Front.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/xzmvelag3/Repairman_s_Spec_Sheet_Back.jpg

Notice the Specs for the Motor !

Here is the Label on the D/C Motor (I Do not see the ubiquitous "Made In China")

This Motor goes for $157 - http://www.wesloparts.com/diagram/16555
http://s19.postimg.org/6wtsgx7vn/DC_Motor_Label.jpg

Knew it had to be SOMEWHERE ! On the side of the Controller PC Assembly...

http://s19.postimg.org/vv73r8y77/Made_in_China.jpg

Here is the Motion Sensor Magnet for the Tachometer - on the Belt end of
the Ball Bearing Tread Roller where the sensor is mounted.

http://s19.postimg.org/l9nqm5lb7/Tachometer_Magnet.jpg

Not too shabby for $37.50 plus WA State Sales Tax...... !
I know it works 'cause I made them plug it in at Goodwill and made it speed up & slow down.

Now - can someone tell me how to get that Fly Wheel off the Motor Shaft w/o
boogering up the motor ?
I will need to put some sort of "Screen" around the Commutator to keep Lathe Swarf
from making my life miserable....

DoctorBill

[JMtoolman]

Bill, why don't you just machine a larger V belt for the headstock and a smaller one for your motor. Just make a 2 to 1 reduction for the diameters and add them to your stack of V belt drives that are already there. 60 rpm is really slow enough for threading, that is what my lathe is. That way you don't really modify your drives. The toolman.

[HollowPoint]

I'm just guessing but, it looks from the photo that the pulley is just press-fit with a key-way to keep it from spinning loose.

HollowPoint

[DoctorBill]

I brought all the Components from the Tread Mill into my "workshop" and
cut the motor mount out of the frame to hold it.

http://s19.postimg.org/qnmitpb1f/It_Is_Running.jpg

Put the Ground Wire to the Controller frame, coupled everything up (except
the tachometer sensor) and turned it on.....OH MY GOD !

It works ! So quiet that I have to look to see if the motor spins !

Now comes the "FUN PART" - adapting it to my ENCO Lathe.

But first - nap time.....

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

I think this would be a default victory of my "sewing machine motor won't work" position leading you to owing me a beer, hey?

Dutch

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - you are dealing with a Stubborn Belgian here......My wife has a odd brand
Sewing Machine she says I can take the motor off of.....so maybe I'll try just to be a butt.
If it won't work, I'll fess up to it and you can PM your address for a letter with the cost
of your favorite Beer.....how's that ?

Back to this D/C Motor.
The Fly Wheel/Pulley looks to be threaded on. I can see the beginnings of threads on the
Motor Shaft. Methinks 'tis a Left 'anded Thread, What !?

http://s19.postimg.org/olm1fgd2b/Threaded_Fly_Wheel.jpg

The back end of the Motor has four Cardinal position (90°) indentations - possible from a
clamp used to immobilize the shaft when the Fly Wheel was screwed on.

Any suggestions ? I don't want to booger up the motor shaft on the back end by
the commutator. Probably has a thread locking compound applied when made.....
Acetone Soak....?

Later on....I put some Sili-Kroil on the threads with the motor standing up....bubbles.
If I clamp the back end of the motor shaft in my vice and turn the Fly Wheel clockwise,
that ought to come off....or would I chance bending the shaft ?
The shaft at the nether end measures 0.315" (5/16ths).

NEVER MIND - I decided to "Go For It" and grabbed the back shaft with my trusty old
Gas Pliers and rotated the Fly Wheel Clockwise..came right off like warm butter on a
old bandage.....

http://s19.postimg.org/obeiw3yg3/LH_x_13_TPI_on_Fly_Wheel.jpg

0.491" x 13 tpi (Thread gauged it). 0.5" x 13 TPI Left handed.

http://s19.postimg.org/hm7zg3d43/Backside_Fly_Wheel.jpg

I wonder if I could Lathe a cut on the backside and remove the Flywheel part ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I removed the 3 step Aluminum and the toothed gear behind it
from the Drive Shaft of my ENCO 9x20 Lathe motor.

The shaft had a screw holding the pulley to the shaft, then has a Key.

With some heat applied (Butane Torch) it came off complaining all
the way with creaks and pings - looks like they glued the shaft.

http://s19.postimg.org/o55f6reoz/ENCO_Motor_Pulley.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/6mrdi8c2r/ENCO_Motor_Pulley_OFF.jpg


DoctorBill

[Whiterabbit]

looking forward to this. My Sieg mill has a DC motor adjustable all the way to ZERO RPM via dial, and it is truly sweet.

My Sieg C6 lathe is all AC and I have to flip belts. Still only 150-2400 rpm capable. What did I do to thread steel last time? Ran it at 150 RPM.

A dial to go down to zero would be so awfully nice. And the 2.5HP motors are on ebay for 20 bucks? That's just crazy.

-S

[trevj]

While you are well on your way to a DC Motor conversion, I would suggest some things to keep in mind.

Those motors run a bit warm, so you will want to account for getting some air through it. The fan blades on the flywheel you took off, take care of that. They are arranged to draw the air through the motor and eject it at some velocity.
You are going to need some kind of fan on that motor.the one it came with is the easiest one available, but a muffin type fan may work too. One more thing to wire in, though.

I suggest that you use that flywheel, and the belt that came with it. Or find a longer belt of the same type. Dig around online and you will find the specs for the grooves for the multigroove belts. Easy enough to cut with a parting type tool. You can make a pulley any size you want. Or just run the belt around the outside of the larger pulley, same as if it were a flat belt. It will work fine that way too.

I suggest also, that you gear the motor output through a jackshaft to give you he ability to keep the motor running at a pretty good turn, while the lathe runs slow, rather than relying on the speed controller to keep it running steady while the torque comes and goes while cutting. The treadmill motors can surge a bit at slow speeds. This is less of a problem if you can keep the revs up and steady.

Best sped controllers are off the really old treadmills, that use a simple pot for the speed control. Then all you need to deal with is on-off, faster-slower, rather than having to push buttons for all the functions. But run what ya got. It'll work. You may want to put a guard over the buttons that switch through the 'training cycles' that are programmed in to the software on the board.
The surplus places had a lot of treadmill motors and controllers for cheap a few years back. Once everyone started using them, the price went up. But buying new ones will always be expensive, compared to keeping an eye out for free treadmills etc.

Me, I think I'd have started out with a jackshaft on the bench behind the lathe with a couple multisize pulleys on it, maybe about a 3:1 or 4:1 reduction at the slow speed, and about 1:1 at the top end. That would have given good torque and slow speed for threading, with a fast way to switch back when not needed. Worked for South Bend, and almost all the other makers of bench top metal lathes for a long time.
I don't doubt that the tach function is programmed to show how fast the belt is moving in mph or kmh. You may be able to use it to some good, or it may just be in the way. Dunno if it is needed for the speed control or not.


Cheers
Trev

[DoctorBill]

Yes....I am wonering if I can use the Pulley I just pulled off the A/C motor
on the D/C motor itself. Might take some drilling out. Put a 'flat' on the
D/C Motor's shaft for a set screw.

http://s19.postimg.org/t2nl5m61v/Two_Different_Pulleys.jpg

The shaft on the rear end of the D/C Motor, by the commutator is 8mm.
I could put a small Aluminum Fan Blade on that.

If I cut some grooves into the toothed pulley on the back side,
I could use either belt.

I'd prefer to use the toothed belt that the Lathe came with - no slippage.

I may have to put the pulley BACK on the A/C motor just to turn a NEW
pulley for the D/C Motor !

I can use the larger portion of the D/C Motor Shaft to put the old Pulley on it
with a set screw - maybe turn it around, also.
I'll have to think about it - that hurts my old 70 year old brain....

Lot to do - spring time and the grass grows so darned fast.
I hate mowing an acre of lawn every week or sooner !
I am also reshaping the back bumper (dented to pieces) on my 1989
Jeep Comanche pioneer 4x4 that I bought this last winter.
Loctite "Extend" Rust Neutralizer followed by Black RustOleum.

STILL can't find that NRA - Life Member thing to put under my Handle
on the left side !

DoctorBill.

WhiteRabbit - sent you a "PM".....

[DoctorBill]

I lightly sanded the A/C motor shaft and deburred the shaft end and key way.
I love the Chinese workmanship - machine it and get it out the door !
Ah well, it makes it cheaper than the name brands.....

The 'Key' itself for the shaft was full of burrs and had eaten out a huge chunk of the
Aluminum Pulley when they pressed it on !
Now I can slide the pulley off and on easily.

I had boogered up the Shaft End Bolt Hole Threads with the Pulley Extractor and had
to utilize my Metric Tap (6mmx1.0) to clean the threads up.
Lucky that I have Foreign Cars - put in a LONGER 6mmx1.0 Bolt - theirs was short and
holding on to the Pulley by maybe 3 threads !

I save everything.....all metric nuts and bolts I get off of any parts - Jars of them.

The Lathe is back together and now I have to figure out exactly what I am
going to do as regards the Pulley for the D/C Motor and how to fix it to the Lathe.

Of course I'll need a Tachometer using a variable speed D/C Motor ! See next post.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

The Tachometer Business with the magnetic pickup.........
I wonder if an automotive tachometer could be used - that counts pulses ?

But then - Lookie here !
Handheld Laser No Contact Tachometer for $15 ($1.60 Shipping) from China !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handheld-Digital-LCD-Laser-Tachometer-RPM-Test-Small-Engine-Motor-Speed-Gauge-/390532684535?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aed8fdaf7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-RPM-Tach-Meter-Electronic-Auto-/271108612140?pt=US_Surveillance_Monitors_Displays&hash=item3f1f55202c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tachometer-Hour-meter-2-4-Stroke-Small-Engine-Spark-utv-atv-kawasaki-mule-teryx-/151047035101?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232b1ad8dd&vxp=mtr

They also sell these kinds of Tachometers to measure the rpm of Model Airplane Engines.

For that price I just bid on one !

Might be able to tell me how fast my head is spinning !...or my Milling bit....
you just gotta know that !

DoctorBill

[KCSO]

I once had a Smithy with the same problem so I took an old wheeled handle from an old leather sewing machine I found at a scrap yard and fitted a hand crank to the end of the lathe shaft. Slide it in and tighten it down and turn the lathe by hand to thread. Worked just fine.

[DoctorBill]

Bought these at McGuire Bearing today.

http://s19.postimg.org/6s4bjdy5f/22_Tooth_Pulley_Belt.jpg

Haven't yet decided - Thread to 0.5" x 13 TPI LH Thread for the threaded portion of
the shaft or bore it out to 17mm for the back portion of the D/C Motor shaft.

DoctorBill

[trevj]

Make the part fit the work, not the work fit the part.

You can get another pulley if you miss the dimensions. Once you make the shaft on the motor too small, yer done.

Ideal would be to cut the thread in to the pulley, to match what you have on the motor.
I would offer that you consider filing or milling a couple flats for the set screws, once all else is done, it'll make removal a bunch easier, as the set screws will raise a burr around themselves otherwise, when torqued down.

Cheers
Trev

[Cane_man]

DB you nutty old fart what heck are you doing?! :)

just use belts and gears to reduce the speed of lathe shaft...

[Whiterabbit]

That was my opinion as well. UNTIL

I got the mill with the continuously variable speed control. 2 speed transmission, 'low' and 'high' gears, both capable of taking the spindle rotation speed down to zero with a quick flick of the wrist on a large pot.

If I ever mess with my C6, the only way it will be acceptable is by making it instantaneously change speed via large pot, all the way down to zero rpm. For sure.

It's just TOO NICE compared to flipping belts!

[DoctorBill]

Different Strokes for Different Folk.
Whatever Floats YOUR Boat.
A Different Kettle of Fish.
March to Your Own Drummer.
No Two Machinists are Alike.
More Than One Way to Skin a Cat.
Tomato - Tomaato.
One Man's Meat is Another Man's Poison.
etc....etc...etc

Besides....it is yet ANOTHER Project to keep me from going insane !

I COULD just sit around watching CNN or the Oprah Winfree Show or
Ellen DeGeneris or SpongeBob Square Pants.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

LOL! db is da man, whatever turns your screw or blows your hair back :kidding:

keep up the good work, looks great... truth be told is that i just have lathe envy :wink:

[DoctorBill]

I like that - Whatever turns your screw !

Whatever threads your nut.....Whatever fits your pistol (John Wayne).

I am having a dispute with my Machinist friend.....says threading that pulley
is not a good way to go - the set screws come loose.

He wants me to take apart my nice new D/C Motor and turn the shaft down to
1/2 Inch and mill in a keyway slot.

Says any standard pulley will then fit it.....I know he is right.

BUT.....I wouldn't take my nice new motor apart - I'd probably BOOGER it up.

So if he does it for me.......

He also wants to put a shoulder on the shaft so the pulley doesn't migrate into the housing.....
He is so fastidious and laughed when I told him that I'm too chicken S___ to take
my nice, beautiful D/C Motor apart and put the shaft on a Lathe !
The Commutator is all nice and shiny and unused and unboogered.

My biggest concern is keeping Swarf off that commutator !

DoctorBill

[oldred]

capable of taking the spindle rotation speed down to zero with a quick flick of the wrist on a large pot.

only way it will be acceptable is by making it instantaneously change speed via large pot, all the way down to zero rpm. For sure.


Using a large pot (potentiometer) to try to control speed of a motor subjected to varying loads would be an exercise in frustration! Simply using resistance to slow a motor just does not work unless the load remains constant and even then it's not a good idea, you really need a motor speed controller to keep the motor speed at the setting you want and keep the torque in a usable range, attempting to do this by using a simple resistance circuit will result in erratic motor speed and loss of torque with even minor load changes.

[trevj]

Using a large pot (potentiometer) to try to control speed of a motor subjected to varying loads would be an exercise in frustration! Simply using resistance to slow a motor just does not work unless the load remains constant and even then it's not a good idea, you really need a motor speed controller to keep the motor speed at the setting you want and keep the torque in a usable range, attempting to do this by using a simple resistance circuit will result in erratic motor speed and loss of torque with even minor load changes.
Uhh... The pot in this case, is what tells the speed controller what speed to run at.
Might want to do a refresher on these little machines before you tell folks that it does not work.

The speed controller off the treadmill as shown, uses buttons and programming, to provide the speed control. The older style used the same pot as many of the mini-lathes and mini-mills have used.

Cheers
Trev

[DoctorBill]

Just to inject a bit of humor - remember what Dirty Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) said.....
"Opinions are like A__ H___s - everybody has one"

Question - my WESLO controller board has a small input PC Board underneath a HUGE input
DISPLAY that uses GREAT BIG push buttons on a Wall Picture Sized frame.

http://s19.postimg.org/vbstqhs0z/2_HP_D_C_Motor_and_Controller_Board_41.jpg

The PC Board is not all that big...

http://s19.postimg.org/t4t6gbc4j/Controller_Input_Board.jpg

If I take the PC Board out - can I replace those big Finger Pads with small push buttons ?
Ignoring all those memory and programming things ?
Problem is - How do I access behind that FRONT plastic panel - looks glued or welded
together - don't see ANY access to it from the front or back side.

I could mount it on the Wall above my Lathe ! Ugggg.

http://s19.postimg.org/8ll0cxnhf/Input_Panel.jpg
Looks like a Star Trek Control Room Panel !

I just want START - STOP - SPEED UP - SLOW DOWN.

After all, they are just making electrical contact - no magic stuff....I hope.

The problem would be figuring out which flat wire on that flat flexible wire thingie
is what.....I'd have to lose the LED display - I think.

DoctorBill

PS - some kid here in a shop class in Spokane, WA got mashed up by a Lathe
a couple of days ago. Wasn't killed, but it tore up his arm and his ribs on one side.
Damn - these things are so dangerous and can hurt you so fast !

[Whiterabbit]

Absolutely! You can even replace the up and down arrows with a digital knob, seeing as all it does is produce a series of clicks. That would be a little more involved than replacing buttons, but could definitely be done.

Anyways, the board is accessed by the top. The top, as you see it, has a thin plastic cover that acts as a switch membrane. You have to peel that off. It's a 1 time deal, it'll destroy the face when you do that.

Any you'll have to fabricate a new box to house all the circuits including the LCD.

But you can use whatever switch you want. When you peel it off you will find either tactile switches under that that you just either desolder or solder extra wires to, or you will find a conductive pad on the plastic switch membrane and exposed contacts on the board that you'll solder wires to.

It's actually quite straightforward. You'll have to snag some solder out of your lead casting bin ;)

[Whiterabbit]

on another note, holy smokes you keep your lathe clean. I could clean my lathe for an hour and not remove chips from every crevice and crack all over the place.

you also need a 4 ft florescent tube fixture or two over the lathe :)

[DoctorBill]

WhiteRabbit - do you know of any web links that show those kind of
input panels that have been opened up ? What that looks like ?

Someone here on this forum (might have been Buckshot) said he keeps a small
shop vac by his lathe and vacuums up the swarf before it gets too deep.

So I do that. It seems to keep the swarf under control - otherwise you'll find it
in your socks and underwear and your coffee and in your wife's ______ !

I still see shiny little flecks in the carpet all over the house.

You know the old saying -
"You can tell what a person is by the appearance of their desk."
http://s19.postimg.org/jnq3bdhk3/My_Neat_Desk.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/ffvb2mg4j/My_Neat_Workbench.jpg

Other stuff - I just bought a 303 Converted Martini-Henry on GunBroker
and bronze brushed out the barrel. Got enough brown-black stuff to plant
in a flower pot with. Interesting note - Rubbing Alcohol as a solvent got
most of that stuff out ! Different things require different solvents....
I hope that it hadn't experienced very much Chordite !

Then I opened up the Breech and got the rust out with Hoppe's No. 9 which
is an excellent rust dissolver !

I think the Rifle had been a Gun Case Queen and hadn't been cleaned in
75 years.....the barrel seemed to have cob webs in it. Enfield Rifling "E".
Muzzle mics out at .309 ! Have to slug it soon. Hope the chamber isn't
widened out - the chamber looks bright and shiny metal.

http://s19.postimg.org/peg9p3pk3/Rifle_A.jpg

DoctorBill

[Whiterabbit]

tried, and no. Cant find it on google. But here are the products themselves:

http://sztdms.en.alibaba.com/product/381186651-210048386/Embossed_Plastic_Polycarbonate_Overlay_Lexan_Stick er_Label_Manufacturer.html
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/pvc-sticker-for-switch-panel.html

You just take a blade and carefully lift the sticker off. I'm betting if you investigate the black border around the buttons, you'll find it is a PVC label, peel-offable. usually, that destroys the overlay. But you of course wont need it after removal.

The only reason I am sure of any of this is because of been-there-done-that.

[Willbird]

I should have grabbed some of the motors and speed controls when surplus center had them :-(. They sold the whole ball of wax in one package. One issue with it was that you had to reset the speed EVERY time you turned it on and off, there was a small soldering project fix for that as I recall.

[DoctorBill]

Sometimes - all this complicated stuff for our benefit becomes too much !

Simple is often better. Like me - I am simple.....

DoctorBill

[Whiterabbit]

Just like all the work you are going through to make the speed control work. So complicated! For the express purpose of making your life simpler. :)

I once went through GREAT GREAT length to connect a single wire from the steering wheel of my car to the center console. I took apart my CD player faceplate, added an extra wire in there, routed it into the dashboard. Agonized for hours finding just the right combination of resistances in the ladder to simulate button pushes. And when I was done I very carefully painstakingly installed buttons on the back of my steering wheel to make a home made steering wheel control for the stereo.

Now that it is done it is intuitive and simple to use. I can control my stereo entirely without looking at it. Hands never off the wheel. It's brilliant and makes me a safer driver.

But when I tell people how I did it they say "man Steve, why don't just lift your arm the extra 18 inches and press the buttons on the CD player directly!"

[Cane_man]

Dirty Harry was a bullet caster

[DoctorBill]

Dirty Harry did cast a lot of bullets - here and there....and over there....it made his day.
Soft Lead or Copper Jacket ?

Do we not all work hard to make our lives easier ?
Why do we take so much time to mow lawns ? Who cares anyway ? But we do it and feel
guilty if we wait too long 'cause the neighbors might think we are lazy neer'do'wells....
Bronx Cheer !

Once my machinist friend, Gary turns my D/C motor shaft down to 1/2 inch and mills a
keyway into it. I can then consider making a mount for the motor on the lathe.
Then comes trying to put the controller and Input boards "Somewhere".

I almost go slow just in order to not be in a "Don't have anything to do" situation....
but mostly 'cause I am getting old (70) and going slow in the 'now' way I do things.

No "dirt naps" for me yet.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

70 old? come on DB, 70 is the new 40... get with wit it homie and dont take so many naps, you a burning daylight!

[DoctorBill]

This was off topic (303 Martini-Enfield) so I moved it to the Military Rifles forum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201278-303-Martini-Enfield-with-Strange-Rifling-Problem

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

303 Martini-Enfield - Post Moved to Military Rifles

DoctorBill

[trevj]

DocBill, since the front panel is connected to the board by a detachable ribbon cable, it'd seen a pretty straightforward job to map the pins on the cable with some time and a multimeter.

Like as not, one end or the other is the common ground trace, the rest are each to one of the contact pads under the front panel buttons.

Should be pretty straightforward to sit down and sort out which trace does what, and build yourself a set of switches that will replace the front panel altogether, with the wiring connected at the ribbon connector point, or you could add some jumpers off the races there.

With the control board you have, you are looking for a handful of momentary contact switches, maybe a couple of the centering type with the contacts at either side of travel, from whoever you can get them from, and if you can wire a tach to read back to the same panel, it'd make a pretty tidy setup, I think.

Cheers
Trev

[DoctorBill]

Radio Krap sells little tiny momentary contact button switches one could use
mounted on an Aluminum Panel.

I'm considering mounting both PC Boards underneath the Lathe Bench Top out of
the way of swarf and such with wires coming up the back side.

DoctorBill

[FrankG]

More on "Off Topic" 303 Martini-Henry (Martini-Enfield)......

J.S. Wolf in his book on reloading the 45-70 Springfield, http://www.4570book.info/,
told of having to clean an old 45-70 for over a month of brushing, wiping, repeat
day after day to get the baked in lead+residue out of old 45-70 Springfield's rifling grooves!

Well - from what I told about in my previous post, I came to the realization that that Martini-Enfield
is not "Shot Out".

How can it be if it had .303 Enfield Rifling and now slugs out to a SMOOTH .309 - .311 !?
Worn out would have worn lands and slug out to .313 to .314 or larger !

Those grooves HAVE to be filled with 100 year old Chordite-Lead-Copper residue hardened
to a steel like hardness.

So - I have plugged the Muzzle with a Rubber Screw Cap (Lowes) that seals it and have
poured a mixture of 1:9 Hoppe's No. 9 and Rubbing Alcohol into the barrel for a LONG,
LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG, soak !
Rubbing Alcohol worked best to get that Black/Brown residue out at first - I thought I was done ! Ha!

Ordering some Stainless Steel Brushes from Brownells.com to work that garbage out of those
grooves to expose the lands again.

DoctorBill



Have you ever used 'Sweets Bore Solvent ' ? Stuff eats copper real good !

[Cane_man]

Radio Krap sells little tiny momentary contact button switches one could use
mounted on an Aluminum Panel.

I'm considering mounting both PC Boards underneath the Lathe Bench Top out of
the way of swarf and such with wires coming up the back side.

DoctorBill

no don't go the the dark side with Radio $hack :killingpc just get the part off evilbay and go on vacation for 4 weeks and then it will arrive from China and you can get back to work [smilie=w:

[DoctorBill]

More Off Topic .....303 Martini-Enfield
Moved to "Military Rifles"

DoctorBill

[FrankG]

The sweets works good but all the other solvents need cleanded out well with something like denatured alcohol so bore is dry. The sweets has a foaming action when eating on the copper and 'lifts' crud where it can be pushed out. I use a nylon bore brush to load the bore and let it set wet for 1/2 hour or so then shove it out muzzle with clean patches . Time consuming but patience and persistence is the key .

[DoctorBill]

Off Topic - 303 Martini-Enfield - moved to Military Rifles.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

My friend Gary, the machinist, has turned my D/C Motor Shaft down to 14mm as on my
ENCO Lathe's motor so that I can use the Pulley that came with the Lathe.

http://s19.postimg.org/7zj6ecm5f/D_C_Motor_Shaft_Reduced_A.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/8dkidy68z/D_C_Motor_Shaft_Reduced_B.jpg

Now I have to remove the ENCO's 3/4 HP AC motor and put this D/C Motor on....
i.e. make a new mount and install a cooling fan.

I am planning on making a Fan Shroud (from Aluminum Flashing) Ducting the air
into the motor front end.

I want to have the separate fan blow air back thru the motor so as to blow any
swarf particles back toward the chuck end of the spindle away from the commutator.

DoctorBill

Been working on my Martini-Enfield 303's barrel residue problem - see
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201278-303-Martini-Enfield-with-Strange-Rifling-Problem

[DoctorBill]

I manufactured a Steel plate and mounted that to my Lathe with standoff's
(1/4" Nuts) and then mounted the Tread Mill Motor Mount to that and put it
all on the back of the Lathe. The standoffs allowed me to use 1/4" bolts to
clamp the Motor Mount to the Lathe Back Plate.

The original 33 lb - 3/4 hp A/C Motor was held on by four 5.5mm studs.
The new D/C Motor weighs ten lbs and is 2.5 hp.

Here is a test run just to see if it works....

http://s19.postimg.org/trg6tnd43/Test_Setup.jpg

It works ! Lowest Chuck rpm at D/C Motor start up is 37.5 rpm !

Here are pictures of the mount from various angles....

Slowest possible Chuck rpm set up (37.5 rpm).
http://s19.postimg.org/i3qqcudcz/Slowest_Possible.jpg

View of the adjustable tension back side
http://s19.postimg.org/faxistd0j/Back_Side_View.jpg

View of motor from above the Chuck
http://s19.postimg.org/6h6mbpq1v/Back_Side_Top_View.jpg

I now have to design a "Ducted Fan" Motor Cover for the Commutator end of the
D/C Motor to cool it and keep swarf out of there.

I'll make the Fan cover assembly out of Aluminum Flashing and solder it together
using that Aluminum Solder you can buy at Harbor Freight.

A separate A/C Fan to blow air at all times while the Master Switch is on will
assure that the Motor doesn't overheat.

The air intake can be filtered and the air will exhaust out the front of the motor
on the Pulley Side. No swarf in the motor that way.

More later.

DoctorBill

[theperfessor]

Outstanding! Very interesting so far, keep on posting.

[oldred]

I always admire ingenuity!

[Cane_man]

DB you are a freakin' animal! good on ya ole boy, keep at it looks awesome... you always inspire me to carry on at the lathe :drinks:

[DoctorBill]

I tried to "Solder" some flashing that I have with the Harbor-Freight Aluminum Solder,
but the flashing wants to melt before the solder sticks.....

So....I am now looking for a can or plastic bottle with the appropriate diameter for to
use as a 'cowling' around the motor.

This Kraft Parmesan Cheese Bottle might just work if I cut off the screw top part...
http://s19.postimg.org/q6gmzfh2b/Motor_Cowling.jpg
It would be nice to be able to see into the cowling, too !

Then a fan motor cowling and I can connect them with a flexible Shop Vac hose
from a Thrift Store...blowing into the rear of the motor to keep Swarf out.
http://s19.postimg.org/49ypcst9f/12v_Cooling_Fan.jpg


DoctorBill

[Whiterabbit]

I am sure the bottle will work fine, but FYI if you are blowing your AL plate your heat density is too low. Get more O2 in your torch or switch to MAPP (I assume you are on propane?) and try again. Might work better.

Also, I was taught it's possible to braze AL together with no filler at all if you have the right end product (we were brazing plates at right angles). once the tips melt and flow into each other, move on. Seemed to work just fine. Though of course unforgiving of the slightest pause in the bead.

[DoctorBill]

I found an old plastic Peanut Butter Jar I had saved (I save everything),
and it is so close a fit, I used that.

http://s19.postimg.org/5jwirun1f/Motor_Shroud_00.jpg

I will get a 3" diameter hose clamp (if I can find one that big) to hold it on to the motor.

Now for something for the Motor Shroud....

Whiterabbit - I used a plain old Butane Torch.
The Aluminum Flashing is only .014 thick...it melts real easily...too easily !
Besides - one needs four hands to get everything placed just right.

Was a nice idea, but unworkable for me....

DoctorBill

[Whiterabbit]

hey, if it works, it works.

i assume it's too late to flip the motor over? or at least flip just the wiring on the bottom? You would be amazed how swarf, usually disorganized and inanimate, becomes a heat-seeking self-powered mobile product that always seems to find a way into the one small crack you werent able to cover up, penetrating your carefully produced shroud.

Or is that just swarf, sawdust, and spent primers dropped in MY house?

[DoctorBill]

Whiterabbit - of course I intend to make a Silicone Grouting around those wires
coming out of the end. Otherwise I would lose some of the airflow needed for
cooling the motor.
Remember - I intend to blow air into that shroud, so air will be coming out of
any openings....THAT was the idea in the first place - positive pressure in the back where
Swarf would be falling.

The only BAD part of a D/C Motor is that it has powerful magnets inside...which will attract
Iron Swarf like Obama attracts Liberals, silly women and people afraid of "guns".

I am going to call Scotty of Star Trek and ask him how to make a Swarf Shield using
anti-Magnetons and Kronium Rays....

Maybe cross-polarize the Framistan and direct Omamazamawhamie beams to do the
opposite things it swore it would do....

DoctorBill

[dkf]

Too bad I did not see this sooner. There is a motor for industrial sewing machines I have installed for a few customers. It is a gear reduction servo motor with a pot to adjust speed right on it. It can be slowed down practically to a crawl. Has a lot of power and is well under $200.

[DoctorBill]

Well dkf, that sure is too bad......

Sewing machine motor ?
How about more details ?
Do you sell the set up ?

I am sure that many guys here would like to know more....

Especially the Dutchman........hmmmm?

BTW - From where did you get your avatar photo !?

DoctorBill

[dkf]

Someone posted the pic I have in my avatar on another site. I cropped it small enough so it could be used as an avatar. Anyone wants a copy let me know.

I am not a dealer for the motors, however there is a distributor for the motors close to me that I do work for and buy motors and what not from when I need them for customer machines.

The distributor I buy them from actually has a video of the motor up on Youtube. It is setup to replace a standard sewing machine clutch motor setup however can be used in other applications.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7yzHKwPvv0


On my South Bend 9" I am using a standard motor and my dad put a frequency controller on it so I have a large rpm to work.

[DoctorBill]

Possible Microwave Cooling Fan with homemade Shroud.....didn't work.

Looks like I have to go buy a Squirrel Cage Fan somewhere...
Pushing Air is not easy to do w/o special type fans.

Like this
http://s19.postimg.org/riu76y61v/Squirrel_Cage_Blower_00.jpg

Having a hard time finding an inexpensive 110v small Squirrel Cage Fan.
They used to be ubiquitous, now like pulling teeth to find a cheap one
anywhere.

They want $30 up for one.
12 volt ones are in most Automobile Heater systems...12 volt - Bronx Cheer !

DoctorBill

http://s19.postimg.org/5yz2crb4z/How_Dare_You_Obama.jpg

[DoctorBill]

I gave up trying to make something and ordered a Squirrel Cage Fan.

#2 Blower by L&R Manuf'g. Tube Cooling Blower - Surplus. $25. ebay.

"These are actually like new and work fine. They run on 115VAC.
These came out of military audio amplifiers that that looked like new.
The output is 1-1/16" diameter. Many uses. They come with the mounting
bracket that you see. If you have any questions please ask.
It is in perfect working order."

http://s19.postimg.org/5in1ht25f/Sq_Cage_fan.jpg

Sometimes you just can't make it yourself.....

TWO days later -

NOPE - ebay seller....waited two days and he replies "I must have been off
on my previous inventory of these fan's. I do not have any more in stock.
I will refund your money back..." Great...THAT does me a lot of good !
Lost two days waiting just to hear that.

These small 110 volt high output Squirrel Cage Fans are difficult to find !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Sometimes it is amazing how things work out !
I am not religious, but it seems like "God Provides....ask and ye shall receive."

Was pulling my hair out, all PO'ed and bitter about not being able to obtain
a small, standard squirrel cage fan like I used to see all over the place back
when I was a kid (the Jurassic Age) - to cool my DC Lathe Motor.

So I am going thru my stuff looking for some kind of small DC Blower from
computers and - a small HAND HELD HAIR DRYER is sitting there in a box !

Hmmm....they have high output, ducted fans in them !
I tore it apart and look at this !

http://s19.postimg.org/r7lxlo4df/Hair_Dryer_Ducted_Fan_00.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/kv6sbu1b7/Hair_Dryer_Ducted_Fan_01.jpg

Low Voltage DC, Ducted, Plastic Hair Dryer Cowling, Protection Screens.....
and Hand Held Hair Dryers are more numerous than Lies from Obama !
...and just as cheap ! Garage Sales, Thrift Stores.....anywhere. I have TWO
just laying around....

I guess I was lucky the ebay guy was sold out... !

This one puts out sufficient air at just 6v although it is probably 9 or 12 volt.
No specs indicated on it - CHINESE hair dryer.....numerous as flies on a picnic.

Now to fabricate my DC Motor Cooling Shroud.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Sometimes it is amazing how things work out !
I am not religious, but it seems like "God Provides....ask and ye shall receive."

Was pulling my hair out, all PO'ed and bitter about not being able to obtain
a small, standard squirrel cage fan like I used to see all over the place back
when I was a kid (the Jurassic Age) - to cool my DC Lathe Motor.

So I am going thru my stuff looking for some kind of small DC Blower from
computers and - a small HAND HELD HAIR DRYER is sitting there in a box !

Hmmm....they have high output, ducted fans in them !
I tore it apart and look at this !

http://s19.postimg.org/r7lxlo4df/Hair_Dryer_Ducted_Fan_00.jpg

Low Voltage DC, Ducted, Plastic Hair Dryer Cowling, Protection Screens.....
and Hand Held Hair Dryers are more numerous than Lies from Obama !
...and just as cheap ! Garage Sales, Thrift Stores.....anywhere. I have TWO
just laying around....

I guess I was lucky the ebay guy was sold out... !

Now to fabricate my DC Motor Cooling Shroud.

http://s19.postimg.org/jvl2tvbj7/Shroud_01.jpg

Hole cut in end of Del Monte Pasta Sauce can fits Ducted Fan.
Slots for the DC Motor Brushes and a 3-4" Strap Hose Clamp.
Can ID is exact same as Motor OD ! Will suck air thru motor
and blow out into the falling swarf. Silicone Caulking will seal
everything up. If Ducted Fan wears out - get another Thrift
Store Hair Dryer....

http://s19.postimg.org/xdrz65noj/Shroud_02.jpg

Not completed yet - needs Silicone Caulking and a power supply (300 ma)
and the DC Motor hooked up.
The ducted fan is running at 6v @ 300ma (underpowered on purpose)
and blows OUT to pull air from the front of the motor away from
where the Swarf falls when the Lathe operates.

Will hook up such that Ducted Fan goes on when Lathe Motor goes on.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

http://s19.postimg.org/vr2rkxbmr/Cooling_Shroud_Fan.jpg

DoctorBill

[Dutchman]

Was pulling my hair out,

I knew there had to be some kind of masochism involved in all this. I could detect some kind of pain in your head, maybe it was the voices...

I am forced... forced I tell ya.... to comment on this whole slow-motor fiasco.

I found the motor mount very clean and neat. And then you wanted to hose-clamp a plastic bottle with a fan on the end and I thought, "oh man he musta bumped his head hard on something...". The idea itself had merit. I don't know if it was the plastic bottle or what..

But then there was an intervention of some kind.. divine? We won't know until it's working and not blowing up your house wiring..

The tin can was an improvement over the plastic bottle.. But then the hair dryer fan... and that silicon caulking applied just like a welding bead.. I knew there was more going on here than just yer average DoctorBill adventure.. With all the pieces together it suddenly looked GOOD!

The bottom line, which has yet to be revealed as the fat lady is still humming a few bars.... It may turn out that the motor wouldn't need a fan at all... that it was over engineered.. All in all no sin in over engineering something. But it may turn out that the only thing really needed was some kind of simple chip guard to protect the fan area from admitting chips and junk into the workings of the motor.

But the fan in the can... it just makes me smile :D

Dutch

[DoctorBill]

Dutchman - As to the voices in my head....once I found out that
they go away if you wear an Aluminum Foil cap... then she doesn't bother me
any more !

The Fan in the Can - It works ! - - - - FIASCO ! ?

Does the DC Motor get hot ? Wasn't going to run it w/o cooling since it
originally had cooling fan blades on the big flywheel on the Tread Mill.

http://s19.postimg.org/hm7zg3d43/Backside_Fly_Wheel.jpg

I like my Ducted "Fan in a Can". It works and cost me squat.

As to how it looks ? Ah well.....to each his own.
Maybe I should paint it some metallic Brass or Copper color.

If my machinist friend, Gary had made it, he'd have milled out some large piece
of Aluminum and made something looking like it fit the Space Shuttle or
come off an alien spacecraft. He'll probably have your reaction when he sees it.

Ya, it looks like something out of a Mad Max at Thunderdome movie.

At least it doesn't run using fermented Pig Poo vapors.....

The only thing I would have done differently, is to make a mount ON TOP of
the lathe to keep the D/C Motor up higher so swarf can't fall into it.

I may STILL do that - so I can mount the sewing machine motor on the back
side underneath....something to keep me occupied until the voices go away....

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

It is all done.....for now.

http://s19.postimg.org/4gw5kzaqr/DC_Motor_Lathe.jpg

I took out all of the A/C Motor wiring and used the ENCO Lathe Switch
Panel to install a DPDT Switch for to reverse the motor.

Also installed a small toggle switch to turn the Ducted Fan Cooler on and off.

The Power Supply Controller board is mounted underneath the Lathe Bench
out of the way of swarf and klutzy movements of yours truly.

Mounted the Control Panel on the wall next to the Lathe.

If I knew enough ELECTRONICS, I would put a motor speed potentiometer
in place of that klutzy WESLO tread Mill Control Panel.

I DO NOT like the digital step up speed button - Beep Beep Beep....

But - - - 'twerketh !

DoctorBill

[Green Lizzard]

doc i was told by a friend he thought i could make a battleship out of a bb, you got me beat.

[DoctorBill]

Well, at least it made the Dutchman smile ! THAT must take a lot !

DoctorBill

PS - not knowing Electronics much, could one DESOLDER a Beeper
on a PC board and install a small LED for a load ?
Just desoldering it might screw up the electronics - if it needs a load to keep
from burning out.

I truly want to kill that "Beep Beep Beep" thing when I press any
one of those buttons.
Pressing "Stop" makes THREE LOUD beeps !
Like a Microwave that could wake the dead....

Hate those beeps.

[DoctorBill]

I covered the "Beeper" with rubber glue then squirted silicone resin into it to
absolutely no effect to quiet it down !

Finally, I took out four screws at each corner of the PC Board, lifted it off and
removed the Beeper by melting the two solder joints where it enters the PC
Board and pulled it out.

The Control Panel still seems to work fine w/o the beeper.....so now....QUIET !

I wonder if installing an LED into the two solder holes would produce light flashes
where before it beeped ? Some type of feedback - flashes instead of beeps.

"Beep Beep !" The Road Runner.

Doctorbill

[Green Lizzard]

why do i think you will try it?

[DoctorBill]

Green Lizzard - Ya - I'd like to try it....but my scant 'knowledge' of electronics
(0.00000001) tells me that the circuitry is set up for the load one of those beepers
has and if I put an LED in the beeper's place, I might burn out a transistor set up for
the beeper's load.

Don't know the Beeper's Load (miliamps x volts) - I do know know most small LEDs
use around 20 - 30 ma at about 5 volts.

That was quite clear, was it not........?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Well, I put in an LED - assumed 12 volts and put a resistor in series to put 30 ma
thru it.

Didn't do what I expected - came on when the system was turned on and stayed on.

Cycling the push button to raise or lower the rpm caused nothing - the LED was on.

So I took it out. Must require some 'signal' to the Piezo Buzzer....?

Been using the motor to do some Lathe work. Quiet - except at a certain rpm becomes
noisy. Above or below that rpm - quiet as a mouse.

Making a Taper Crimper for my new Snider .577 rifle cartridges.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/16025/I-finally-bought-a-Snider-577?page=5

Am paper patching .578" up to .593" until my Accurate Mold arrives (one month turnaround !).

My Snider has a big chamber - so none of the LEE Dies are of much use if I don't want
to work the Brass to pieces. I used the Forming Die to make Magtech 24 ga shot gun
brass into Standard Snider brass, then shot some rounds, found out the chamber is
bigger than "Standard" and so about all that is useful is the bullet seating die, now.

DoctorBill

PS - Did Obama make the .22 cal Long Rifle cartridge obsolete ? What happened to all of them !?
They are about as scarce as an honest Congressman !

[Cane_man]

just checking in to see if ole DB is still kickin'.... good update on your latest project :)

[aspangler]

Try putting it in "back gear" (as you should be for threading anyway) and it will slow WAY down.

[Dutchman]

Try putting it in "back gear" (as you should be for threading anyway) and it will slow WAY down.

Not all lathes are back-geared. His isn't. My 12x36 gear head lathe does not have back-gears either.

Dutch

[aspangler]

Sound like upgrade time. A Southbend won't set you back too much. That's what I have. Made in '35 or '36 and still going strong. Sell you other one to someone just getting started.