Making dies.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

Now I have my lil lathe and a client is a supplier of fasteners I figured I might have a play with making some dies for my press. Made a die to hold Lyman/RCBS boolit sizing dies so I can use to Lee push through style and also a multi cartridge 'M' die.

My client has 7/8x14 bolts. What should I avoid in terms of ease in machining? I guess high tensile is out etc?

[Reg]

If you are going to use bolts for blanks, make sure you get them to run true. You can use grade 8 (high tinsel) bolts but keep good sharp tooling , keep the speeds down and use a good grade of cutting oil. A good oil I use comes from a ACE hardware store and is the standard cutting oil sold for cutting threads in pipe.

For a really fussy job, everything required to be dead on, you should cut the threads dead true .

Now--- you are only limited by your imagination, get out there and have fun.

[littlejack]

Hey Jeff:
I posted a question here a few months ago about using 7/8" x 14 tpi bolts for die making, and got all kinds of replies. Some say that the bolts were no good. Some said that the threads were "substandard" compared to cutting your own threads. I did a check with the bolts that I had, and a couple of dies that I had made, and found that the threads were every bit as good as the threads cut on factory reloading dies. In fact, there was a lot more discrepantcy (some dies looser than others in my press) in the factory cut threads, than in the threads cut on the bolts that I checked.
When making my first and only dies (so far), I chucked up on the threaded section of the bolt. This made sure that the machining done to make the die was true with the threads. I have been busy doing other things for a while, and have not made any more dies after the first set. I will however use the bolts, for my next die stock unless something goes terribly wrong with this method. I really see no reason that this should happen.
Regards
Jack

[blikseme300]

Jeff, the experts told the Wright brothers that heavier than air flight was impossible. There are bolts and then there are bolts... I have used bolts for die bodies and they turned out just fine. Good cutting tools are a must along with cutting oil or soluble oil coolent.

[leftiye]

Hey Jeff:
I posted a question here a few months ago about using 7/8" x 14 tpi bolts for die making, and got all kinds of replies. Some say that the bolts were no good. Some said that the threads were "substandard" compared to cutting your own threads. I did a check with the bolts that I had, and a couple of dies that I had made, and found that the threads were every bit as good as the threads cut on factory reloading dies. In fact, there was a lot more discrepantcy (some dies looser than others in my press) in the factory cut threads, than in the threads cut on the bolts that I checked.

When making my first and only dies (so far), I chucked up on the threaded section of the bolt. This made sure that the machining done to make the die was true with the threads. I have been busy doing other things for a while, and have not made any more dies after the first set. I will however use the bolts, for my next die stock unless something goes terribly wrong with this method. I really see no reason that this should happen.
Regards
Jack

You might want to make an internally threaded 7/8X14 sleeve and cut a slit on one side to chuck your bolts up in your lathe with. Sleeve will compress and hold bolt both tight and centered. Chucking up on thread points - the thread point may dig into the shim material unevenly. Or, crush the thread points.

[theperfessor]

What leftiye said!

[Cactus Farmer]

There are places that sell metal,ie, 41L40,12L14 ect. and this material is cheaper to buy and a lot better machining properties. "Speedy Metals" comes to mind.......Check out "Home Shop Machinist" I think.....

I buy it in bulk just to have better material to work with. Shafts,punches,dies,sleeves and such. Read up on steel specs. and chose accordingly.
All the leaded steels case harden quite well with "Kasenite". And they cut like cheese......;>).
Stress Proof (1144) makes tiny chips and machines well BUT it won't weld worth a tinkers damn. If it breaks you make a pass on it with the welder of your choice and then toss it in the scrap bucket.
I try to keep a collection of brass,aluminum and plastics(Nylatron,Deldrin, ect,) on hand for when it's the thing I need. There is a small amount of $$$ to be made repairing/building small things for folks as the "big" shops don't seem to have time for the little jobs.

Funny how they pay just like the big ones.........

[Cane_man]

12L14 turns like butter, going to try case hardening it with Cherry Red

[Cactus Farmer]

Kasnite will make it glass cutter hard.

[Cane_man]

cactus, i cant find that stuff anywhere, heard good things about it... apparently it had some offending compounds in it that the governmental authorities did not approve of and it is no longer available, at least legally

[littlejack]

Leftiye:
That is a good idea. Thanks for the tip.
Jack

[Dutchman]

Team.

Now I have my lil lathe

Well, you ~say~ you have a lathe but I'm not seeing any pictures of it. I thought there was a requirement in this forum that if you say you have something you have to produce corresponding imagery to satisfy the attention deficit forum readers.....?

Machine tool porn!!!

Dutch

[theperfessor]

I've started using 1144 free machining steel for almost everything I make that does not need to be welded or hardened. (11XX steels are resulfurized to give the free machining property) I can get it in rounds and hex bars of all sizes.

12L14 steel has lead added for free machining and is fine also but I can't get it in all the sizes I need.

Comment on what leftie said: The mass production processes that makes bolts often do not leave the OD to be concentric with the thread axis. By clamping on the threads you ensure the hole in the center is straight with the threads. It has nothing to do with the dimensional accuracy of the thread itself, it's an alignment issue.

Everybody does things differently, I gave up using bolts as raw material after learning how to cut threads efficiently. Doing OD/threading and ID work in one setup really improves accuracy, and I get to pick the material. But that's just me, have fun doing whatever you do.

[Skipper]

apparently it had some offending compounds in it that the governmental authorities did not approve of and it is no longer available, at least legally

It's replacement is called Surface Hardening Compound:

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/color-case-hardening/surface-hardening-compound-prod27119.aspx

71298

[Cane_man]

i just put the threads in the chuck to center drill on the bolt head, then just use a thread cutting die later to clean up the threads

have fun, absolutely!

[JeffinNZ]

Well, you ~say~ you have a lathe but I'm not seeing any pictures of it. I thought there was a requirement in this forum that if you say you have something you have to produce corresponding imagery to satisfy the attention deficit forum readers.....?

Machine tool porn!!!

Dutch

I'm not sure I have a photo on Photobucket. It's a Chinese mini lathe. 8x12 or some some such. Nothing flash but more fun than you can get a permit for.

[Cane_man]

here is my Chinese 7x12 (when it was brand new 12 years ago), like jeff says more fun than you would think:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Reviews/Homier_7x12/Homier_7x12.jpg

[Dutchman]

There is a 8x14" lathe that is much heavier and better than the 7x10/12. I've heard nothing but good about it as far as accuracy.

I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of trouble you get in with this new toy :).

I understand about lathe fun..

http://images60.fotki.com/v367/photos/2/28344/6717603/sq12-vi.jpg

[JeffinNZ]

here is my Chinese 7x12 (when it was brand new 12 years ago), like jeff says more fun than you would think:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Reviews/Homier_7x12/Homier_7x12.jpg

Yeah, that's pretty much the device.

[Cactus Farmer]

cactus, i cant find that stuff anywhere, heard good things about it... apparently it had some offending compounds in it that the governmental authorities did not approve of and it is no longer available, at least legally

Try the Brownells stuff or google it. Sodium Ferrocyanite? I think. I bought a BIG can of the real thing years ago and I've used anout 1/2 of it.

I ,too, like 1144, ie, "stress proof" , it hardens well and machines well but as the Prof said "no welding". If it needs welding you need another material to start with. However is will silver solder quite well if that's necessary.

I have a local supplier for metal and get it in 12 foot stalks and saw them up into 3 foot pieces for convenience. I seldom make anything any longer than 6 inches, and if I need longer material I just go to the store. We have good suppliers here as we are in the middle of the oil fields and there are MANY machine shops locally that make and repair the big iron necessary to drill 2 to4 mile deep holes.

If I can help,please PM me and we will discuss your needs. ;>)

[oldred]

There's nothing special about cutting a grade 8 bolt, they are high tensile but they are not all that hard and machine very easily without any special processes or cutting oils involved. In fact grade 8 bolts machine easier than the hardware store variety in that it is MUCH easier to get a good surface finish. Another thing about bolts vs dies is the way the threads are made, I think there was a statement made to the effect that dies have threads cut just like bolts but that's simply not true because bolt threads are not cut! Dies are usually made completely in a lathe type turning operation that uses a cutting tool to remove metal from the die to form the threads but bolt threads do not involve removing metal, the threads are "rolled" onto the shank of the bolt with roller thread dies and the threads are formed by DISPLACING metal and not by CUTTING metal. This type of thread forming makes for a stronger bolt but does not necessarily guarantee the shank of the bolt is perfectly centered with the threads, VERY close but not always exact. The dies however will be perfectly centered due to being cut in the same operation as forming the rest of the die. Does any of this make a difference? I doubt it because the bolt threads are going to be off-center such a small amount it's not likely to cause a problem otherwise it could cause problems with other uses for bolts and I have never heard of this happening, still the bolt threads are usually not EXACTLY centered.



Another note about grade 8 bolts, if a thread cutting die is used to extend the threads farther onto the shank the bolt no longer has the tensile strength rating it had before the new threads were cut. The reason is the rolled threads do not take away metal, the metal is simply displaced and the threads are very smooth compacted metal with a slight radius at the bottom of the "V" while cut threads simply rip out metal and leave a microscopically torn surface (often even visibly torn!) with a ragged sharp "V" in the bottom creating stress risers in a critical area. What all this means is that a grade 8 that has been modified by cutting new threads loses a great deal of it's ultimate tensile strength, I have read that the loss can be as much as 30%.

[Cane_man]

Try the Brownells stuff or google it. Sodium Ferrocyanite? I think. I bought a BIG can of the real thing years ago and I've used anout 1/2 of it.

I ,too, like 1144, ie, "stress proof" , it hardens well and machines well but as the Prof said "no welding". If it needs welding you need another material to start with. However is will silver solder quite well if that's necessary.

I have a local supplier for metal and get it in 12 foot stalks and saw them up into 3 foot pieces for convenience. I seldom make anything any longer than 6 inches, and if I need longer material I just go to the store. We have good suppliers here as we are in the middle of the oil fields and there are MANY machine shops locally that make and repair the big iron necessary to drill 2 to4 mile deep holes.

If I can help,please PM me and we will discuss your needs. ;>)

thanks cactus, will do

[littlejack]

oldred, that is great information. I did not know that, but it makes perfect sense.
I am sure, there are also many folks here that did not know that procedure, because I believe it would have been stated long ago.
Thank you.
Regards
Jack

[oldred]

Kasnite will make it glass cutter hard.



Like the others said Kasnite is no longer available, some wacko at the EPA saw the word Cyanide and even with it being in a low toxicity compound form they went into hysterics and banned some of the best quick hardening compound available, never mind it has been used for years with no rash of reported ill effects! The best substitute I have found is "Cherry Red" (I have been told the Brownells is Cherry Red with a different label) but it only hardens to a VERY shallow depth when used as directed. This is sufficient for most work but I have had much better results by using it in a packing type hardening procedure rather that the "heat & Dip" method suggested in the directions. I use a metal box (my boxes are made of 1/4" steel plate) to contain the parts and the hardening powder, the parts are packed into the box along with the compound much like using charcoal for a carbon pack but unlike the carbon pack method this only takes a few minutes and can be done with a torch -small jobs can even be done on a BBQ grill. I pre-heat the part as much as practical before packing then heat the entire box red hot with the parts/powder inside and hold that heat for about 3 to 4 minutes then dump them out into the quench water, I have had no trouble getting a case depth in excess of .015" to .020" which is a lot better than the heat & dip method recommended. I suppose an even deeper case could be acquired by using a longer heat soak time but 3 to 4 minutes seems to do the job for me.

[Cane_man]

i did some case hardening with Cherry Red today... easy to use, i did the heat/dip/heat/quench method... need some help interpreting the outcome, this was for a swaged bullet sizing die (push thru sizer like the Lee cast boolit sizing dies)... here is what happened:

-the die ID got smaller by about 0.002, not sure why because this process is not supposed to add material, its all subsurface

-the cases were easier to push through, perhaps because of less friction due to a harder surface?

i don't have a BH tester so i dont know if it is harder, but all i know is that these cases squeezed through like butter, and without heat treating you could really feel the friction when they were pushed through... any insights?

only drawback to Cherry Red is that you have to lap the die again the get the crud off, but the extra effort seems to be worth it...

[JeffinNZ]

I got some of the 7/8x14 bolts today so will have a play.

[leftiye]

i did some case hardening with Cherry Red today... easy to use, i did the heat/dip/heat/quench method... need some help interpreting the outcome, this was for a swaged bullet sizing die (push thru sizer like the Lee cast boolit sizing dies)... here is what happened:

-the die ID got smaller by about 0.002, not sure why because this process is not supposed to add material, its all subsurface

-the cases were easier to push through, perhaps because of less friction due to a harder surface?

i don't have a BH tester so i dont know if it is harder, but all i know is that these cases squeezed through like butter, and without heat treating you could really feel the friction when they were pushed through... any insights?

only drawback to Cherry Red is that you have to lap the die again the get the crud off, but the extra effort seems to be worth it...

The smaller diameter is probly due to shrinkage due to stresses in the bolt and the effect of the heat on the stresses. Smootherness could be small pieces on the surface falling off due to becoming scale with the heat (and/or the lapping).

[littlejack]

Have fun Jeff.
I want to get me a sleeve, I.D. threaded for the 7/8"x14. I can slit it and then use it to hold the bolt with the thread end in the jaws.
Jack

[country gent]

When you make your sleeve cut a groove front and back for an 3/32" or 1/8" oring. number 1-3 every third of bushing. then split into three pieces. This will save alot of stress on your chuck tightning and compressing the sleeve. The orings allow spring movement and hold it all together but the 3 pieces become jaw liners moving freely with the chuck. If your using a 4 jaw then cut into 4 equal sections. We made these up as needed in the tool room at work was much easier on the chucks and we saved them in a drawer labeled so we only made them once.

[JeffinNZ]

Did some machining last evening. The bolts are high tensile and machine up really nicely. Ran quite true also.

[littlejack]

Country Gent. Thanks for the tip.
Jack

[goofyoldfart]

It totally amazes me of the "tricks, tips and the variety and depth of knowledge on this site!! I will use 7/8 x 14 bolts and my drill press (don't have a lathe or room for one in a one bedroom apt :( ) plus an x y axis vise. that and set up dial indicators. I think that the split collar (tapped inside) held in a deep vee in the jaws would be a help. If the axis is off at an angle--well, I could probably bend the push rod to match:kidding:. Nothing ventured-- nothing gained. God Bless to all and theirs.

Goofy

[littlejack]

Goofy, Before I bought my lathe, I made my first sizer die that way. I used my China made drill press, and a Shop Fox x-y vice. The vice has a lot to be desired. To much slop. I did shim and tighten the vice after I received it, but it is just not a good quality vice.
The die worked fine, after I polished the inside with 400-600 grip paper.
A fella has to start somewhere.
Regards
Jack

[JeffinNZ]

I finished my 'M' die last evening. Will post late.

[JIMinPHX]

I've made a bunch of these. The first one was made from a G8 bolt. It came out OK, but I had a hard time getting a good finish when I cut the bore. I made another out of leadloy. I single pointed the threads on that one. It was a lot of work. Since then, I got some all thread rod that was made out of unplated 1018. I've been using that happily ever since. I have yet to wear one out.

[littlejack]

Jim, thank you for the tip..
Jack

[goofyoldfart]

Littlejack: yup, you gotta do whatcha gotta do to gitter done;-):) I was an "A"rate , precision, electrically crosstrained multi-craft Millwright for 25 years and if you saw some of the equipment that we worked on (and what little we had to work with) you would utterly amazed and impressed with the results. It was a hell of a lot of hand work. As I am now retired --- well, hand work it is (with the aid of a few power tools.) But, I look at it as FUN! sort of---- against all odds[smilie=1::D. Have to admit that I hadn't thought of all thread--huummmm? Good Suggestion JIMinPHX, thank you. God Bless to all and theirs.


Goofy:coffeecom

ETA: My spelling sucks tonight--had to fix.

[littlejack]

I come from a family, where a lot of us were fabricators/welders most of our career. My career lasted a good 37 years before my knees give out on me. I also done a little millwrighting. Anyway, I used to say, and sometimes still do.
"If we can't buy it, we can make it. If we can't make it, we don't need it"
Regards to all.
Jack

[Cane_man]

i found that a special collet for bolts isn't necessary as i can chuck the threads and if they do get boogered up i can just run a thread cutting die over them when i am all done turning/drilling and the threads clean right up as good as new (better)...

[Walstr]

Greetings all,
To the point--I'm casting 20:1 45-70-405 that are dropping @ .4605"-.4615" and am planning using the White Label Delux X-Lox tumble lube. I'd like to keep the process as simple as possible, but may need to run'em thru a .461" resizing die, as their driving bands are not all quite the same diameter. RCBS reports they do not make a .460" or .461" die. Although not rocket science, I have no machinery to make my own.

#1--should I bother to resize or just load'em?
#2--if resizing is called for, based upon your cumulative knowledge, has/does anyone here make them?

Thanks much.