Why on Sharps cartridges

[Roundball]

I have been making progress on the learning curve of care and feeding of black powder single shot rifles-no more "white powder". I found 2.4, 2.6 and 2 7/8 Sharps' lumped together under .45-100 in my edition of "Cartridges of the World". The comment was made that these cartridges of varying length carried similar powder charges. Length , this source continued, was to accommodate the same charge in heavier cases made for repeated re-loadings and different bullet weights. Is this explanation correct? Thanks for the help.

[Don McDowell]

It's close. They did offer the same amount of powder in all 3 cases. But they also offered the option of more powder in the 2.6 and up to 120 grs in the 2 7/8's. The bullet weight they topped the case off with contributed quite a bit to the powder charge.

[Mike Brooks]

Figure using 500 to 535gr bullets with BP. Seat them out till they engage the rifling. These are real basic starting comments but will save you some time. Ask more questions once you get down to the actual shooting.

[NickSS]

The old sharps cartridges were known by length of the brass not the powder charge. A few examples are Sharps called the 45-70 the 45- 2.1 inch and one load they offered was a 420 gr bullet over 75 gr of powder. What we call the 45-90 they called the 45-2.4 inch and loaded it with depending on type of bullet (paper patched of grease groove) and weight of bullet from 420 to 550 gr with everything from 80 to 110 gr of powder. It was the same thing with the other cartridges you mention. One further thing the 45-2.4 replaced the 45-2.6 cartridge in their target rifles. You could get them in a hunting rifle but not many were ever made by them. The big hunting cartridge was the 45-2.1 and the 45-2 7/8 (Known today as the 45-110). The 45-120 (45-3 1/4) was never chambered by sharps in any of their rifles as it came to life after the company went out of business.

[bigted]

also id chime in with another thought I've heard bantied around and goes thusly...

the longer case length in some instances were thought to be brought into existence for the lube disc...[cookie]...so as to be able to remain with the same powder charge along with the added 'disc' ...[in the load column]... for lubrication of the paperpatched boolits and fouling control of a boolit/barrel with no other lube provisions.

in the case of my favorite case length this side of the 2.1 is my 3.25 case that I can easily get 135 grains of powder in for a hot rod express load that burns the atmosphere when it is released...my 120 cases are custom made for the cookie loads and I can go with a 1/4 or 3/8ths 'disc' and still have well enough room for all the powder a feller could ever desire...sometimes way more then desired when shooting some heavies such as some 640 grain patched boolits ahead of 125 grains of GOEX Cartridge powder....yee haa !!!

[oldred]

when shooting some heavies such as some 640 grain patched boolits ahead of 125 grains of GOEX Cartridge powder....yee haa !!!




You do of course have thing mounted on wheels don't you?

[bigted]

no wheels but...you really know when the trigger breaks. these were just an experiment and then only because my adjustable mould goes this long sooo...had to give it a try...WHEWWW!

loaded a few in my 458 winny too but my gosh... little over the top for this feller...[smilie=1:

[ColColt]

I've shot the Zouave with the 510 gr lead minie' ball and 140 gr of 2Fg and it was a killer. I image that load/bullet would be comparable to what I felt. the recoil actually recocked the hammer on that muzzle loader.

[bigted]

I've shot the Zouave with the 510 gr lead minie' ball and 140 gr of 2Fg and it was a killer. I image that load/bullet would be comparable to what I felt. the recoil actually recocked the hammer on that muzzle loader.

LOL...yep I can commiserate with the re-cocked hammer. did this with my first TC hawkin 54...loaded a similar load with way too much powder and as it re-cocked the hammer for me it nearly set me on my setter. no Mo Fo me. the liter loads are just fine and my shoulder is still in the shape it were...[nearly]... that it came from the factory in.

[ColColt]

The only reason I used that much powder was because Val Forgett of Navy Arms had told me I could load as much powder as I wanted in the Zouave as long as I could get the ball seated!! I wasn't about to try that but knew he and his cronies had been to Africa with the Hawken Hunter using a 600 gr(or there about) bullet with about that same amount of powder to bring down elephants. I worked up to that load "gently" starting at 70, 90, 100, 120, and then I stopped at 140 gr. Once was enough.

[montana_charlie]

also id chime in with another thought I've heard bantied around and goes thusly...

the longer case length in some instances were thought to be brought into existence for the lube disc...[cookie]...so as to be able to remain with the same powder charge along with the added 'disc' ...[in the load column]... for lubrication of the paperpatched boolits and fouling control of a boolit/barrel with no other lube provisions.
That very aspect is currently being bandied. Find it in this thread on the Shiloh forum.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20835&start=30

Essentially, the 2.4 case was used for target shooting. A heavy powder charge could be used because the bullet was set way out of the case mouth, and no cookie was needed. They were cleaning the bore between shots.

But, to have that load for hunting use, the case needed to be long enough to (1)add the grease cookie and (2)cover most of the patch ... to protect it from weather and handling damage.

CM

[ColColt]

Sort of off the beaten path but is it necessary to use a paper patched bullet with the Sharps cartridges in a Sharps rifle? It seems to me you could just load up a 45-90 case with BP or smokless, seat bullet and fire away(once determined the groove diameter, of course)

[montana_charlie]

Sort of off the beaten path but is it necessary to use a paper patched bullet with the Sharps cartridges in a Sharps rifle?
No.
There are a lot of good grease grooved designs.
The Paul Jones Creedmoor, the Postell (Lyman or other maker), and the 'Government' bullet are the most common of the traditional designs.

CM

[bigted]

if I read yore question correctly...no ... paper patched boolits are not needed for shooting in sharps rifles. geezers do well as most shooters will testify to. the premise that a patched boolit is needed to shoot in a sharps is bogus but to read some posts you wood think that this is so. :roll:

I guess a feller like me don't learn about the too much powder as I have a TC encore Magnum 50 cal and its booklet says a 450 grain will be ok with 150 grains of 2f or pyro ... soo ... yep did it ... rolled a 450 grain hollow base Baco boolit in paper and stuffed it down on the so called for powder. lit it off and shoved my thumb into my nose hard enough that thought my nose would bleed...tears and the whole mess. did this just the other day so now I will talk about it but then it weren't too funny to me. [smilie=b:

no fool like an old fool huh? 8-)

[ColColt]

I suppose many like to make enjoying them difficult. They look cool(paper patched) but I'm into shootin' not "cool" I don't know where you'd get a slick bullet mold without grease grooves anyway.

I learned real quick about the Zouave and BP. I haven't tried that stunt again and that was back in about '77.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=ColColt;2233663 the recoil actually recocked the hammer on that muzzle loader.[/QUOTE]

It wasn't actually the recoil doing the re-cocking. It was the high pressure coming back through the nipple and driving the hammer back. I did much the same with my Zouave, until I decided it was a bit too much of a "good thing".... I reduced the load until the hammer only came back to HALF-cock. At this late date, I don't recall the exact load... but it surely was HEALTHY.

One nice thing about such loads was that the nipple stayed CLEAR, and no mistake!

[ColColt]

I can testify to this. That large brass crescent shaped butt plate did noting for my shoulder. It was kind of fun, though. It took about 15 seconds to see the target I was shooting at! No smoking posted at the outdoor plinking range didn't have the Zouave and 140 gr of 2Fg in mind.:)

[ColColt]

I just checked out the Postell 535gr bullet on Track of the Wolf. It's a good looking bullet with four grease grooves. I'd say with 80-90 gr of 2Fg and that bullet you'd best not fire it prone with a crescent steel butt plate unless you want a bruised shoulder. I don't have enough meat there any more since getting old. Don't know what happened to me?:) It's not me in the mirror anymore. Maybe a lighter bullet would be more apropos.

[montana_charlie]

I just checked out the Postell 535gr bullet on Track of the Wolf.
Maybe a lighter bullet would be more apropos.
If you don't plan to shoot much beyond 4 or 500 yards, a lighter bullet is a viable option.

If you DO want to reach out, there are a number of recoil absorbtion devices which are popular.
My choice is the Bob Allen "ABSORB-A-COIL" rifle pad. I also have a PAST pad, but I like the Bob Allen better.
The PAST is too thick and too hard for my liking, but it DOES soak up the punch from the gun butt.

CM

[ColColt]

I don't have a feel for how the 45-90 recoil would be in a heavy rifle. I do remember very well although it's been about 30+ years ago when I had the Remington Rolling Block carbine in 45-70 how bad it recoiled. Best I recall it was only about 6 1/2 pounds.


If you don't plan to shoot much beyond 4 or 500 yards, a lighter bullet is a viable option.

I have my doubts if I could see further than that...if that far.

[NickSS]

All this talk of heavy loads brings to mind a rifle I owned for a short time many years ago. It was a single shot english sporting rifle in 4 Bore. It was half round barrel with a false muzzle for loading and open sights. It came complete with two molds one for round ball and the other for a conical that was paper patched on loading. The balls weighed about 3 ounces and the conicals were around 4 ounces. I remember that there was a recommended bullet and powder charge for different dangerous game. I only fired two round balls with the charge recommended for lion and tiger of 15 drams of FG. My first shot was at 50 yards and the recoil rocked me back on one foot and spun me 180 degrees. I hounestly think that my shoulder blades touched. Like a young fool that I was I loaded it up for a second shot and jerked the trigger and shut my eyes. My second ball hit the 2X4 target frame and shattered it. I was hurting too much to try a third shot. I sold the rifle to a collector shortly after shooting it. I must say those two shots tought me that hevey kicking rifles were not for me give me a pipsqueek 458 mag any day.

[ColColt]

15 drams??!! That's 412 grains of BP. It's a wonder you have a shoulder. Those English must be a hardy bunch. They've always favored big bores and lots of powder. After shooting that monster the 375 H&H would seem like a .22. I got curious as to what a 4 bore round looked like. The pic tells it all.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/My%20Stuff/6a00d834515cf969e200e54f50d9138833-500wi_zps3bc74821.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/My%20Stuff/6a00d834515cf969e200e54f50d9138833-500wi_zps3bc74821.jpg.html)

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/03/the_4_bore_cart.html