Krag shopping guide

[blixen]

I'm eyeing a Krag sporter (sentimental reasons and it seems a good CB cartridge) and wonder if more knowledgable folks have some basic guidelines in how to judge these old war horses. The bore, of course. And I've heard about cracked lugs, but little else.

If the bore is bad, how worthy of a new barrel are they?

[Char-Gar]

I am a Krag guy from the headwaters, but not blind to it's quirks and faults. A lightly frosted barrel is just fine as long as their are no pits and missing rifling. Pass on any pitted barrels. Also check the lug for cracks. Most do not have cracks, but you want to avoid one that does.

Unless you are a hard core Krag guy, it is not worth the $$$$ to rebarrel one. Hunt up a good Springfield 1903 or 1903A3 that has been sporterized and it will be much less costly and will give better performance as well.

[gnoahhh]

Ha ha, I suspect Char-gar and I have about 100 years of Krag experience between us! What he said is true, but as always, the better the bore, the better off you are. I have had Krags that had awful looking bores that shot surprisingly well, but it was the ones with pristine bores that shot the very best.

I'll add that if it's a cut-down rifle, check that it was cut and crowned square and true. That'll have as much bearing on how well it shoots as the bore condition.

You might want to closely examine the receiver for cracks also. The one I spotted that was cracked had the crack running lengthwise back from the lug seat.

Use your best judgement as far as the stock goes. The same rules that pertain to other rifles go for Krags too, in terms of cracks, oil soaked wood, how many beavers gnawed on it, etc.

If it's missing any small parts, don't sweat it. Everything can be had. Scope holes make me cringe, as do recoil pads. Those two things are the main deal breakers for me. (Remember, a Krag ejects straight up, and a centrally mounted scope is in the way for a hunting rifle. Not much concern for a target gun though.)

[KCSO]

I happen to have a custom Krag Sporter on the shelf now. I actually like the ones rebarreled by the NRA in the 30's as the 03 barrels are a little closer to dimension. When I do a Krag I also lap in the bolt for bearing on the safety lug and set the headspace accordingly. I use a Weaver side mount on my guns so I don't mind the two small holes on the side if they are done right.

[blixen]

Every Krag sporter I've seen over the past year has the same old dependable Lyman receiver sight on the side. Most of them are in the $400 range, regardless of condition. Everyone seems to think they have a rare collectors' item that was carried by Teddy Roosevelt himself.

I just want a shooter. I located one for $250 that seems to be in good external condition, metal and wood.
But I want to make sure it isn't hiding some dark secret. I didn't have a bore light with me, so that's the next step.

Second problem is good ol' cash flow.

[KCSO]

Runs some gas or acetone over the bolt and wipe it off and look for seeps around the locking bolt. Take a good glass and a small vial of your solvent. You are looking for any sign of a cracked locking lug.

[gnoahhh]

I happen to have a custom Krag Sporter on the shelf now. I actually like the ones rebarreled by the NRA in the 30's as the 03 barrels are a little closer to dimension. When I do a Krag I also lap in the bolt for bearing on the safety lug and set the headspace accordingly. I use a Weaver side mount on my guns so I don't mind the two small holes on the side if they are done right.

Krags weren't re-barreled by the NRA in the 30's, or at any other time. The NRA was never in the gun building business. What perhaps you are referring to are the "NRA Sporters", the few of which that were built were done at the Armory and sold through the DCM to NRA members. Many such Sporters abound nowadays, but most are spurious as any good basement Bubba or semi-skilled gunsmith could alter a Krag to that configuration which was the cheapest way to get into a decent sporting rifle back in the day. Unless by some miracle the original DCM paperwork from 90 years ago is still with the rifle there is no way to guarantee the provenance of a true NRA Krag sporter.

As for lapping the locking lug enough to bring the safety lug to bear, that's not such a hot idea IMO. To achieve that dubious improvement you would be wearing away the case hardened skin on the face of the lug and probably the lug seat, thus taking it well into the soft steel underneath it and softening the whole arrangement. That can't help but encourage eventual wear/set-back that would leave the safety lug to shoulder the brunt of the work. One Krag collector whose thinking I respect postulates that by messing with the case hardened dynamic of the lug and its seat could very well eventually lead to lug failure in the event of an accidental (or purposeful) overload.

[Char-Gar]

After the 1903 Springfield was available in sufficient quantity for the regular army and national guard units, the Krag was mustered out of service and sold for as little as 75 cents to the public with $1.50 being about the top price. This placed them in reach of everybody hard scrabble worker and farmer in the country. Most had their barrels and fore stock shortened to make them manageable. The hunting fields were infested with these rifles for many years. The 30-40 round took every game animal in the US from moose to mouse and did so cleanly if a fellow can shoot a rifle. Not much percentage in going hunting if you can't shoot a rifle. Back in those days we were not enveloped by urban sprawl and culture and most every kid learned basic rifle craft at a very early age.

I bought one of these rifles (1959) from an old (90 years) dentist w ( John Moxley) who got to old to hunt. It had the barrel shortened to 22 inches and had an old Weaver 330 scope. The scope was trash, but if had an old Pacific receiver sight in a Bull Durham sack tied to the trigger guard. However it had no front sight. I installed an 03 front band and sight and with the Pacific sight was in business. I killed my first deer with this rifle in 1960 and still have the rifle today. I paid the grand sum of $15.00 for the rifle. It was made in 1901.

The load that killed the deer was 42/4895 under a 150 grain Sierra sparked by a CCI 200 primer. Accuracy with this load was lackluster at 4 MOA due to .308 bullet doing down a .310 barrel. With good fitting cast bullets this rifle will turn in 1.5 to 2 MOA accuracy. Oh yes..I do keep good records and this is from 1960.

Since then I have made many others and still have four of them. They are all cast bullet only rifles.

Now a word about "lug lapping". If we are talking about the single locking lug on the front of the bolt, gnohhh is 100% correct, never mess with it. However there is a small safety lug on the bolt body that bears against the front of the rear receiver ring when the bolt is closed. The purpose of them is to catch the bolt, should the front lug be sheared.

If you are rebarreling a Krag it is a good notion to lap this rear safety lug into good contact with the receiver so it won't have a run before it contacts. This does add a little more strength to the action. But this serves no purpose unless you have the barrel breech set back a smidge to allow contact. There is enough space in the front lug locking recess to do this without lapping the single front lug which is a no-no.

[gnoahhh]

Well, I guess Char-gar is little bit older than me. It wasn't until 9 years later (1968) that I got my first Krag. It was a cut down rifle (surprise) with a M1902 rear sight, the fold up peep through which I could actually focus my young eyes. It cost the princely sum of $35. I had already killed a couple of deer, so it wasn't my virgin deer killer, but I did whack a couple with it using (believe it or not) 311241 PB bullets cast from WW's and driven by as much 2400 as I could get away with. (I don't remember the charge weight.) The performance (or lack thereof) of that load spurred me to buy an old #311284 mold and started me down the path of cast bulleteering. Halcyon days for a 16 year old kid. I wish I still had that one. It went for either books when I was in college, or (probably) beer. After school when money eased up a bit, more Krags found their way through my door. To say that I'm fond of the old girls is putting it mildly.

Funny how discussions about Krags brings out all the 'old guys' who wax nostalgically about them. I'm glad the milsurp guys lust after Mausers (although I have a few of them too), Mosins, Mannlichers, and such as that has kept the price of Krags to be affordable. But I honestly don't understand how someone could examine a Krag with its wonderful smooth action and amazing machining and a Mauser on the other hand and not want the Krag instead.;-)

[blixen]

Interesting point about the hunting fields being infested with Krags. My sentimental attachment is an uncle in western Pa. who took a deer every year with a cut-down Krag until he was 75. But, for me as a kid, his most memorable shot with it was 150 yards offhand at a ground hog. The whistle pig went cartwheeling. But when we went up to the scene, all we found was a lot of blood. Ol' Phil (this was near Punxsutawney) had gotten to his hole.

[Char-Gar]

Brings out the old guys? I guess I will have to enter a guilty plea or at least no contest on that one. I still love the old guns and old ways and have not made much forward progress in the past 50 plus years. I find I have nothing in common with the "tactical nitwits" and their progressive loaders that crank out ammo by the bucket full and they shoot it as fast as they can on the weekend. Guys like me will be gone soon enough and they can have it all to themselves. The old guys I shot with, who taught me to reload and the ways of a rifleman have long since passed over the divide. I am looking forward to linking up with them on the other side. What a campfire that will be! The likes of those men no longer walk this earth.

[madsenshooter]

I'm eyeing a Krag sporter (sentimental reasons and it seems a good CB cartridge) and wonder if more knowledgable folks have some basic guidelines in how to judge these old war horses. The bore, of course. And I've heard about cracked lugs, but little else.

If the bore is bad, how worthy of a new barrel are they?

I sure love mine! Most are pre-1898, so antiques that even Feinstein's bill exempted. New barrels in carbine or rifle length are available from the CMP for $199.95, if you absolutely had to have a new one. But generally, if the rifling isn't completely gone, and the bullet fits the bore and groove diameters, they'll shoot just fine. I really like occasionally outshooting someone with their whiz-bang ultra modern rifle using something that's 117yrs old!

[gnoahhh]

Brings out the old guys? I guess I will have to enter a guilty plea or at least no contest on that one. I still love the old guns and old ways and have not made much forward progress in the past 50 plus years. I find I have nothing in common with the "tactical nitwits" and their progressive loaders that crank out ammo by the bucket full and they shoot it as fast as they can on the weekend. Guys like me will be gone soon enough and they can have it all to themselves. The old guys I shot with, who taught me to reload and the ways of a rifleman have long since passed over the divide. I am looking forward to linking up with them on the other side. What a campfire that will be! The likes of those men no longer walk this earth.

As little Cub Scout in 1960, we marched in the local Memorial Day parade. It was a long route for a bunch of youngsters, up hill and down, and by the end of it we were lollygaggling along with our tongues hanging out. The unit behind us was a bunch of Spanish-American War vets- tough old birds in their old uniforms who marched along ramrod straight and in step. I distinctly remember the Krags they carried. Seems like yesterday. Funny how some old memories stand out, when I can't tell you what I had for dinner three days ago.

[Char-Gar]

Monday evening, Mary 13 th., I had cornbread with apple and cranberry stuffed chicken breast, baked with a 2" red wine cover in bottom of pan, at 350 degrees for two hours. A good salad served on a cold plate and a good California Super Tuscan wine. I did all the cooking and the Beloved Redhead helped me eat it. I am old, but not out yet! (-:

Oh yes...I can still shoot a rifle and handgun pretty darn good you betcha!

[madsenshooter]

I remember when the rifles in our local American Legion were all Krags. They all had Kerr slings on them, which draw up nice and parade tight. Somehow those rifles never got returned to Uncle Sugar when they were later replaced with 03s and Garands. There's still several of them around town that were liberated by Legion members.

[Char-Gar]

I remember when the rifles in our local American Legion were all Krags. They all had Kerr slings on them, which draw up nice and parade tight. Somehow those rifles never got returned to Uncle Sugar when they were later replaced with 03s and Garands. There's still several of them around town that were liberated by Legion members.

My Grandfather was the Commander of our local AL post and I spent lots of time there. Their color guard rifles were 1917s (Enfields).

[Frank46]

When I got transferred from active duty in the navy to the inactive reserve I used to go deer hunting on my aunt and uncle's farm in Pennsylvania. All the old guys in the hunt club that leased the hunting rights all had a bunch of krags. Family members were allowed to hunt anytime the seasons were open. Lotta ground hogs went down on that farm. My uncle even bought an inexpensive 222 and kept it on the tractor in a home made scabbard. I bought my cutdown krag 20 years ago for $180. Still have it. When the movie Rough Riders with Tom Berringer came out got some mighty tempting offers. Mine is a 1898 with a 1901 cartouche on the stock.Frank

[blixen]

Looked at that Krag again. Can't find any cracks in the bolt. The bore is dark but has clear rifling, however one of the grooves appears chipped for 1/8 inch. Hard to explain and could be dirt or grease--didn't have a pullthru. Clearly an after-market stock with monte carlo and cap.
Some photos:
7094870949709507095170952

[madsenshooter]

You certainly wouldn't be out anything with that rifle blixen, that model rear sight often brings near $100 on flea bay. Depending on whether or not someone gets fighting over it. Normal price is more like $65. A lot of people are tearing the old Krags down into parts and getting more out of them that way.

[uscra112]

Looks like a Bishop stock. Very popular aftermarket stock in the '40s and '50s.

[gnoahhh]

Yes, I thought "Bishop" when I saw it too. I have turned several old Bishop stocks (Mauser, Springfield, Krag) in to sleek tasteful stocks by removing the wood that the original owner should have but didn't, and losing the white spacers. I found that Bishop Mauser stocks had such long fore ends that I could cut the fore end tip off entirely and still be long enough to shape a schnabel, after slimming/tapering the fore end to scale. The next thing was to either remove the semi-Monte Carlo cheek piece entirely, or re-shape it to a 'classic' design. I snag all of those old Bishop (and Fajen) stocks that I run across, if they're cheap enough.

[blixen]

The stock seems to be excellent quality walnut, but the cheekpiece is unnecessary with the receiver sight. And the white spacers remind me of white-wall tires. BTW, I really like the look of the Krag carbines that retain the original barrel band, although it's probably problematic as far as accuracy is concerned.

[gnoahhh]

Barrel bands aren't as problematic as one might think. Real world utility isn't effected by barrel bands, IMO. Either way, a Krag has to be anchored in front of the receiver ring in some way. The guard screws are too far back and too close together to manage the job all by themselves. Their positioning allows the recoiling barrel to gain a lot of advantage in its attempt to lever itself out of the stock upon discharge. Sporterized Krags typically have a small barrel band anchored by a screw up through the stock. Anything that'll hold the barrel down from rearing back will work.

[Char-Gar]

If barrel bands were a big issue, Krags, 03s, 03A3s and a host of other rifles would not shoot so well. Many target rifles have been built using barrel bands. It is another myth that barrel bands is the kiss of death for a rifle's accuracy. How they fit and are fitted is important, just as many other issues of wood to metal fit are.

[ajjohns]

Is it possible to drill and tap the front of the receiver/recoil lug for the use of a front screw to anchor the receiver? I have a new stock to put on mine and was wondering if this could be done instead of using the barrel band.

[Char-Gar]

Is it possible to drill and tap the front of the receiver/recoil lug for the use of a front screw to anchor the receiver? I have a new stock to put on mine and was wondering if this could be done instead of using the barrel band.

The Krag action has no recoil lug. When bedding make certain the rear of the magazine is in firm contact with the wood behind it. The answer to your question is yes, you can drill and tap the bottom of the front receiver ring for a third action screw. I did that with my most recent Krag sporter build. I made an escutcheon to inlet into the stock for the screw to bear against. Before you do it, make certain you have a carbide drill bit as H-S bits will just sit then and spin on the Krag metal.

I used a 1/4 X 28 cap head bolt for the job. I did turn the head down a bit to reduce the diameter and thickness of the head.

[ajjohns]

Thanks for the answer. Ya I knew that it really isn't a recoil lug in the front but you get my goof. My new set up is gonna have a short forearm so I didn't really wanna use the barrel band. Thanks again!

[blixen]

Very illuminating discussion on barrel bans.Thanks.

[uscra112]

Char-Gar, did you then float the entire barrel? How did it work out?

[Char-Gar]

I used Accra-Gel to bed the action and first two inches of the barrel. The rest of the barrel floated and it shoots very well. It has been my practice for many years to bed the action and chamber and float the rest of the barrel.

[warboar_21]

I have a soft spot for Krag sporters. My good friends grandfather bought one when he was a boy and hunted every manner of game with it. All the pictures of the deer, elk, moose, antelope, and bear that he had shot with it always had me wanting one. My friend used the rifle to kill his first bull elk. A single Winchester silver tip is all that was needed to do the job. Everyone made fun of him and the "old" rifle until he showed up to school with the pictures of the big ole bull taken with that "old outdated" rifle.
The last decent condition sporter I saw was priced entirely to high for me at around $600. Right next to it was one in full original condition and was priced at $1500. To much for me to spend on either one but they sure were nice.

[Clay M]

When I was thirteen I decided I had to have a Krag . Just liked the way they look and read hunting stories about them . I worked mowing lawns and odd jobs and saved up $60 .Our family went on vacation in the west in 1971 and our car broke down going over the centennial divide in Co. We had to get towed into Gunnison . I still remember eating breakfast the following day and seeing a big sporting good store across the street. We went over,and I ask the fellow working behind the counter if he ever got any Krags in. He said he just got one in on trade . The asking price $60. It was a rifle that had been cut down to 20".The bore was perfect .I had found my rifle .Still have it today.I am not sure how much money it is worth.It has a Redfield peep and an old Sourdough front sight.