The 'stupid' Armed Citizen

[Jim]

As this section of the forum is viewed by many as the 'pot belly stove corner of the general store', I'll post this in hopes I'm not out of line with the subject. To the staff, as always, if this needs to be relocated, by all means, please do so and accept my apologies.

I was certified by the NRA several years ago to teach. When Janet and I moved to Floyd, I discovered there was a void of instructors here. I hung out my shingle.

One of the things I hammer on is knowing the firearm laws of the state. I tell people that it's important to know the laws to avoid having to appear before a judge on a firearms charge. I also tell people that knowing the laws can reduce accidental injuries and deaths.

If I see a story once a year in the news about a child being injured or killed by a firearm because of the negligence and complacency of an adult, that's one time too many. It tears my heart out of my chest that a child has been taken from us because of stupidity.

I saw just such another story this morning.


Dad arrested after 4-year-old NJ boy accidentally shoots and kills playmate

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/14/charges-filed-against-father-4-year-old-nj-boy-who-accidentally-shot-and-killed/?test=latestnews#ixzz2TGi65ofN

How do we stop this? Honestly, I really don't know. More laws? We already have laws toward this! Education? I'm all for that, but you can't FORCE people to take classes. If you do, that's another law.

There's an old adage that goes "Let the punishment fit the crime". So, what's the appropriate punishment for being responsible for the death of a child? Do we put people to death for that? If so, would that stop this from happening again? I wish I could say it would, but I also have to admit I doubt it.

A child is dead, a family has been robbed of their child and another child has to live with that all his life. He might not be aware now of the gravity of this, but it most certainly will land on him as he gets older.

Hey, if you wanna go outside and shoot YOURSELF in the foot, knock ya'self out! You'll learn real quick how stupid you really are. But when somebody is responsible for the injury or death of somebody else, especially a child, I have an issue with that. And it's an issue I don't know how to deal with.

Fellas, if I've accomplished nothing more than taking up screen space, I apologize. Having said my say and spoken my peace, I feel no better than when I started. I guess I just needed to get this out of my head. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten it off my chest.

[Sweetpea]

Jim, this is why we as responsible gun owners keep our guns secure, and educate our children about guns.

It always seems that neither of these things have happened when these tragedies occur.

Brandon

[Case Stuffer]

Education .

Can the average 4 yea old tell the difference between a toy gun and a real one ,most likely not.

My son who is now 33 knew the difference between a toy gun and a real one by the age of three and he knew to never handle a real one without my direct supervision.

I had loaded frearms in the house long before he was born and the only changes made as he went from being held ,to crawling to walking ,climbing etc. was to keep them out of his reach until I felthe was old eough to be responsable with them.

In many parts of the country children grew up around firearms ,learned about them at an early age and knew if they borrowed (?) one of thier dad's firearms to show thier friends they would be in big trouble.

Even way back in 1966 when I was drafted many in Basic Training had neve held much less fired any firearm.

Many years ago the NRA developedthe Eddie Eagle children's firearms safety course but guess what , many parents do not want their children to learn anything about firearms.

[contender1]

No matter how hard we try, or how many laws we pass,, nothing will ever completely stop senseless tragedies.
But we can reduce them with education.
Unfortunately, as you've noted, we can not force folks to go to school.

The lack of so many people having a proper firearm education is too many of them have been raised in homes & areas where they were not exposed to shooting & taught the safety rules. For several decades now, it has become increasingly hard to have a place to shoot, or a home where it's acceptable to own & discuss firearms.

Too many folks get the majority of their education from TV.

The young child that killed his playmate did not know squat about what a firearm really does.
But the parents SHOULD have known better.
When my son was born, I had a room in my house that was dedicated to firearms. I put a hasp & padlock at chest level on that door. Was it unsightly? Yes. Was it secure from a thief? Not really. But what it did was secure all my guns & stuff away from a child until I KNEW I could trust him.
I followed that with regular safety discussions, AND trips to the range to show him the destructive power of a firearm. I removed the curiosity factor a child has, AND I allowed plenty of time for him to enjoy shooting. To this day, he's a safety conscious person, and is passing along the same training to my granddaughter.

Education & caution.

Too bad some people have the "It can't happen to me" mentality.

[crowbuster]

Ahh yes, eddie eagle. Stop, dont touch, leave the area, tell an adult! Both my boys saw it a lot when they were small, darn near wore the vhs tape out loaning it to the town kids as well. times they are a changin.

[Jim]

I have a very good friend in the president of a large, private rifle club. I wrote to him this morning about this. He responded and brought to my attention something I'd never heard and something I'd never thought of.

"Jim,
I agree that this moron should be arrested and charged. I also agree that people need training. But there is a fine line between people SHOULD have training, and being REQUIRED to have training to exercise a RIGHT."

I fully agree with my friend on that.

He went on to say "I was amazed by some figures that our political liason officer presented last evening at the meeting. A study done by a consortium of colleges and universities over a 10 year period shows that more than 4 hours of firearm instruction becomes counterproductive."

My friend did not specify that the four hours is at one time or in total. I'm guessing it's at one time.

I've heard from people that have attended a CHP class or a hunter safety education course that went 8 to 10 hours. Even with the breaks and lunch recess, they all said they couldn't wait to get out. I remember a couple of people saying the constant drone of the "blah, blah, blah" drove them nuts and it was all they could do to pay attention and pass the test.

I've gotten off track. This has nothing to do with the original subject.

[linotype]

Jim,
I agree about firearm training. Our local Club has a Junior Trap and a Junior CAS program. We begin with firearm safety training, and an instructor on their shoulder while on the firing line. It's all about safety and respect - respect for the firearm and respect for others.

[bob208]

ok my point some of the things i see people do i wonder how the human race has survived this long.


one other thought the more you try to hide or even pretend it does not exist. the more the young ones will seek it out and explore and play with it.

[texassako]

A similar shooting happened this weekend just down the road from me: http://www.dentonrc.com/local-news/local-news-headlines/20130513-boy-dies-from-accidental-shooting.ece . Notice that it was the friend that did it. You never know the firearms education of your kids' friends, or what they might look/hide/play in. My daughter has found stuff I forgot I even lost under, behind, and in things.

[wallenba]

Too many times we hear about the child who discovers the gun 'hidden' in the sofa cushions. Often it is a low income inner city owner who has little or no real knowledge of firearms or safety training. And young gangsters and wannabees doing it. This scenario plays out here in the Detroit area it seems, several times a year. How many more go unreported due to no injuries? Probably a lot more than we think. The anti-gun groups will gladly add these incidents to their 'statistics', which I see as meaningless because it is not a reflection on us, the responsible armed citizens. Rather the irresponsible ones who will continue to obtain firearms illegally. I have always felt that firearms related statistics be keep in catagories. Accidental, legally owned. Intentional homicide related to gang or drug activity. Suicide. Self defense, and law enforcement activity responses. And others when necessary. This would give a clearer picture for non-gun oriented, unbiased people to form their own opinions, rather than the media doing it for them.

[Blacksmith]

I am also a NRA instructor and have taught many hundreds of children gun safety and marksmanship over the years. Years ago I was getting a class together and was looking for a few more students so I spread the word among friends and coworkers. When I told one fellow who I knew had age appropriate children about the class his response was "I don't want my kids to know anything about guns!" No amount of talking about the importance of gun safety or what might happen if his child might find a gun would change his mind.

Education is the answer but the focus needs to be on teaching age appropriate gun protocols and and safety to all children.


I have a very good friend in the president of a large, private rifle club. I wrote to him this morning about this. He responded and brought to my attention something I'd never heard and something I'd never thought of.

"Jim,
I agree that this moron should be arrested and charged. I also agree that people need training. But there is a fine line between people SHOULD have training, and being REQUIRED to have training to exercise a RIGHT."

I fully agree with my friend on that.



Education should never be a requirement to exercise a right, too much potential for abuse by those establishing the requirements. However, firearm safety could be an requirement for all school children just like sex education.

[45 2.1]

We have an entitlement society. The last two elections proved that you can't beat Santa Claus. Can you really expect for the have nots, who get their monthly check to give a care about anything.... except getting the next check? Part of your title was correct... and that was the stupid part. Stop handing out anything until they work for it and you might see something happen to the space between their ears.

[dtknowles]

We have an entitlement society. The last two elections proved that you can't beat Santa Claus. Can you really expect for the have nots, who get their monthly check to give a care about anything.... except getting the next check? Part of your title was correct... and that was the stupid part. Stop handing out anything until they work for it and you might see something happen to the space between their ears.

45 2.1

Judging from the news link in the original post I don't think the family involved in this incident was receiving any public assistance. I think your comment is completely out of place.

Tim

[starmac]

Terrible things have always happened, and always. Do we lock up everyone that has a car wreck, an atv wreck, a wreck on the ski slopes or lake that involves a kid?

It saddens us to no end when a kid is involved, but percentage wise, guns are probably way down the list of things hurting kids, or people in general.

[Malgus]

I've thought about the problem of unintentional discharges where a child is hurt or killed... and I do not have an answer. I can only say what worked for me, which is similar to what others have done- education.

I started taking my son shooting when he was 4, under my close supervision. He was given his own rig, taught how to use it, safety protocols, etc, and he was shown the power of firearms. My firearms are in a locked safe, and only I have the combination.

A dedicated gun room with a padlock? When I was young, a padlocked room represented the sweetest fruit of all- how to get into that room, fool around and then get out without leaving a trace. It was more a temptation than anything else.. think mom and dad hiding Christmas presents in a locked trunk. It will only be a small deterrent.

In this area of the country (central Kentucky and areas east of us in the mountains), in the past, male children as young as 8 were required to contribute to the family. No slackers. A small child can hardly be counted on to perform heavy labor, so the male child was given the task of forage hunting. Sent into the countryside with a rifle, on his own, to take game for the families' table. That was their job.

My son is now 12. He knows that if he wants to see his firearms, he need only ask, and I will retrieve them for him. He understands that he will follow safety protocols (clear the weapon, don't sweep anyone, etc) or he will lose his firearms privileges. If he wants to zap pop cans, he has a BB gun for that. If he wants to shoot for real, then we set up a specific time to hit the back 40.

I have a shotgun that is not to be touched by anyone, except for me, unless circumstances are dire (think- bad guy kicking his way into the house). It isn't loaded, but ammo is held in a cuff on the butt. It's mostly for critters raiding our garden or picking on our stock, so it gets used often.

I guess my point is that, with proper training and instruction, children can be trusted with firearms. But it is the parent(s) responsibility to ensure the child knows everything there is to know about firearms and how dangerous they are.

Mal

[lbaize3]

While it is not often that young children visit my home. I take the time to tell them, and their parents, that there may be firearms where the child can reach them. I instruct them not to touch any firearm and I generally show them a firearm or two...(It helps them remember). If and when they come back I ask them what they learned the last time they were here. If the children can not remember, I go through the instruction again. No parents have taken issue with my method of instruction, yet.

Oh, and by the way, almost anyone younger than 30 is considered to be a young child in this old man's eyes.

[Trey45]

One of my best friends and I have a system when we shoot together. If either of us see's the other doing something unsafe, we call them on it. If he muzzle sweeps me I call him on it, if I do something similarly stupid he calls me on it as well. It rarely happens where we have to say something to the other. Bad habits we both had are broken.

Maybe a part of the solution might be to take it a step farther and start doing the same thing with fellow gun owners. Maybe if we all as responsible law abiding gun owners took the time to correct bad habits whenever and whereever we see them, things like the tragedy of losing a child through stupid gun practices could be avoided. I'm not saying that we should all become "safety nazis" all the time, but if you're over at a buddys house and you see he's got kids running around and he's got a couple loaded guns where a kid can get to them, SAY SOMETHING to the dufus about it! It could be something as simple as an oversight on his part where he got sidetracked and didn't put his guns up, or it could be laziness or just plain ignorance, regardless, a gentle "nudge" sometimes is all it takes to prevent a tragedy. Sometimes a shove is in order...

[felix]

There are NO loaded guns in my house, and all are kept in one spot. However, there are sharp (loaded) knives in the kitchen, and all are kept in one spot. Both situational laws are by ME as the dictator in my house. My kids use knives when "cooking"; my kids use guns while shooting. Cooking IS done in the kitchen; shooting is done at a safe location where distinct targets exist for the purpose. It all by PARENTAL education and by nothing else. ... felix

[Boerrancher]

I keep a couple loaded guns in the house at points that Are easy to access. I have 5 kids and all of them from the earliest of age were taught what a gun is and what it does. My kids don't get to play with toy guns. The closest things to toys we have are air soft and BB guns. I never wanted my kids to think guns were toys. When they got old enough to ask questions and want a toy I put air guns in their hands and taught them proper respect. They all know even the youngest not to play with guns but how to use them should any varmint either 2 or 4 legged start terrorizing the farm.

[PS Paul]

NRA has been so vilified by our "free press", most low and ill-informed types can never see past what they have been told: that ANYTHING to do with NRA programs, like Eddie Eagle, is not considered "correct/appropriate" for their children. So more and more die thanks to a leftist agenda.

and responsible parenting? WWell THAT is apparently passe'......

[km101]

As "Geargnasher" has on his signature line: "You cant fix stupid. But sometimes you can head it off before it hurts something." All we can do is follow sensible safety rules and be sure that our children are trained. We can make this training available to other adults and children that come into our homes, and see that they follow our safety rules while they are there.

But you cant supervise and train for every eventuality. There will always be situations beyond our control. If we try to legislate training and common sense we will be so restrictive that no one will be able to do anything. And this is a very slippery slope that I don't think we want to start down.

As to your original question of "How do we stop this?" I don't have an answer. I don't think there is one answer for every situation.

[popper]

It all by PARENTAL education and by nothing else Totally correct. Kids have no respect for anyone or anything anymore. Period. Won't leave anybody else's stuff alone. What is a gun used for? What is a TOY gun used for? Should know the difference by 4 yrs old. With the 'feel good' courts, the Texas guy probably won't get prosecuted. If you have a gun and use it improperly, causing an 'accident', suffer the consequences. Tough titty said the kitty.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1 Judging from the news link in the original post I don't think the family involved in this incident was receiving any public assistance. I think your comment is completely out of place. Tim

Well Tim, you might think it's out of place, but sooner or later your going to get bit by that little fact. It's symptomatic of what this country's problems are. There are a lot more things besides public assistance that do the same thing. If you have to work in an area where it is the causal problem for it's inhabitants, you would see how insidious it can become. Many other problems result from it also, none of them good.

[onceabull]

Of course the fact the Mormon physicians Son shot and killed the Mormon Senator/lawyers son here was because both Dads got Government assistance for their education,,couldn't be anything else, could it ???? Onceabull

[firefly1957]

New Jersey has very strict laws on firearms and every aspect of having one, i am sure the gun owner will do time for this but what they really need is to see kids are taught that guns are dangerous i showed this to my own kids with water jugs they got the message that guns were not toys! I can not but wonder if New Jersey's strict laws may have contributed to this shooting where people can get a CPL it is less likely that a loaded rifle will be available in a home as the person with a CPL will have a pistol on them and often have better training about proper handling and storage. We do not know everything that happened here and probably never will a child died needlessly that we know. Some comments above remind me of a four year old boy some years ago that killed his mother's boy friend with his own illegal gun. The guy a felon kept a pistol in the couch cushion and while he was beating and threatening to kill the child's mother the 4 year old boy got the pistol and killed him saving his mother's life that 4 year old did understand enough to know that he could save his mother! While other 4 year old children get much media attention for calling 911 this boy was berated and treated badly by the media the prosecutor did not charge him only because of his young age and law that did not permit charges.

[shooter93]

We'll never stop all such tradgeies. We're human and we are flawed. Doesn't mean we should stop trying though. Even kids well educated about guns can get overtly curious, suffer from peer pressures. Parents can make a mistake and no parent has had their eyes on a child at all times. Elmer Keith never allowed his kids toy guns and thought no one should. His answer was to teach them about real ones very early. Finn Aagarrd said he never worried about a loaded gun in his house because he always knew where it was....on his body. That seems like a good idea to me. Education and vigilence are the key and prayers that it doen't happen.

[Riverpigusmc]

You can't legislate stupid out of existence. My 6 year old has his own BB gun, a Winchester Youth .22 for supervised shooting, and knows the rules of gun safety..even helps me clean my 1911's. That being said, if it aint on my hip, it's in the Liberty safe or by me as I sleep..and I don't sleep much. Kids are kids, and they are curious, without much thought of terminal ramifications.

[gew98]

Education .

Can the average 4 yea old tell the difference between a toy gun and a real one ,most likely not.

My son who is now 33 knew the difference between a toy gun and a real one by the age of three and he knew to never handle a real one without my direct supervision.



CS ; I have to second your experiance on kids. My mini-me is 10. He WILL NOT TOUCH a fiream without my OK....period. He knows quite enought to tell when firearms are more than likely to be loaded...but he always goes through the chain of command. I've got him to where he will engage a safety or clear a weapon of magazine and ammo uber safe like before he handles such.

[xs11jack]

There will always be a small percentage of the population that will not, for whatever reason, accept responsibility for thier actions. They just do not care and any outside persuasion will be met with hostility. We will never be without them and we have to live with the consequences.
Jack

[TXGunNut]

Totally correct. Kids have no respect for anyone or anything anymore. Period. Won't leave anybody else's stuff alone. What is a gun used for? What is a TOY gun used for? Should know the difference by 4 yrs old. With the 'feel good' courts, the Texas guy probably won't get prosecuted. If you have a gun and use it improperly, causing an 'accident', suffer the consequences. Tough titty said the kitty.

Just heard about that tonight. Responsible party could very well be prosecuted but time will tell.
When I was a youngster I knew where my dad's guns and ammo were hidden. Guns were unloaded and ammo was well hidden but I knew where it was. Lucky for me I was fascinated by the guns and the ammo but had no interest in loading up and firing the guns. I wasn't taught gun safety until I went to scout camp.
Hiding guns doesn't work, as many of these child on child shootings will attest.

[popper]

When gramps passed, years ago, family was going through his stuff for wife. My 7yr old bro found a loaded 38 in a drawer. Carries downstairs to show dad, who had a fit. He knew what it was but didn't LEAVE IT ALONE. It's natural for kids but they need to be taught at an early age. If it isn't your, don't mess with it.

[freebullet]

The problem... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObxGewjWc_8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I think that sums up the problem pretty well. The solution don't store loaded weapons were children have access to them without you present. My father had a couple nice guns on the wall in the basement but they were unloaded. I was taught to respect the power of guns bout 5 or so with my first bb gun. I think much before that the eddy eagle approach is appropriate. If your kids are going to be around your firearms you have to remove the mistery of them, be smart about loaded weapon storage, and secure ammo storage. Coming up with that is your responsibility, if the gov has to do it for you their gonna take'em. I had access to that bb gun all the time however I didn't have the ammo unless I was supervised. It let me learn to handle firearms responsibly at a young age. I think it was a good approach. By the time I was old enough to stay home alone guns were no big deal. I like mine loaded & on me these days.

[smokeywolf]

This kind of incident will never be avoided or eliminated completely. In order to prevent this kind of incident from happening, idiots would have to be sterilized before they were capable of reproduction. Unfortunately, since idiots don't think about the consequences associated with producing children, such as food, clothing, education and medical needs; idiots will always reproduce at a far greater rate than intelligent people.

From my earliest memories, my parents told me to treat every gun as though it were loaded That included my Mattel guns. They taught me that if you shoot someone you can't unshoot them. And, no matter how many "I'm sorries" you say you will never be able to undo or make up for what you have done to them and their families. My parents almost literally beat into me that a gun is not dangerous until a human touches it.
My father was a gunsmith when I was a small child. There where rifles standing up in corners and pistols sitting on tables all the time. My parents told me any time I wanted to touch or hold one, all I had to do was ask and they would drop whatever they were doing and come watch me and tell me how to handle the gun safely.
I don't remember learning to check a gun for loaded cartridges or chambered rounds because I learned these things before my earliest memories or recollections.
My parents had me shooting a model 57 Winchester before I was out of diapers. I was given my own 22 Colt SA Scout for Christmas when I was six years old.
We never had an accident or mishap with a firearm.
Being that a firearm can't load itself or aim itself, I'm not even sure that you can have an "accident" with a firearm.

I think this really boils down to parental responsibility.

I wish I had the answer to preventing any future innocents from suffering or losing their life, but short of requiring an IQ test before being allowed to procreate, more children are going to suffer.

smokeywolf

[Boyscout]

The only loaded gun in our home is the one I have in my pocket holster. All others are locked up. When the boys were little, I took them shooting. We pretend hunted with toy guns in the back yard and I watched for muzzle sweeps. Any muzzle sweep was dealt with quickly; the games were short and fun. I would throw a ball and have them "shoot" the rabbit. It taught them awareness of their surroundings. When I took each of them out, I carried a handgun and had my hands free to guide them if they forgot where their muzzle was.

I think the problem I have with safety classes is that they are too long and some too expensive.

[Ramar]

Eddie Eagle can prevent a child from becoming a victim even if a friend picks up the gun.

Now a days hospitals give to departing parents with newborns many starter gifts such as an approved car seat and I wish a copy of Eddie Eagle's DVD was included for baby and parent.

Education is the answer and even the "Cookie Monster" can save children's lives.
Ramar
Founding and proud member of the NRA's " Golden Eagles" now celebrating 20 years.

[WRideout]

When my oldest daughter was about eight years old, I gave her a BB gun, which I taught her to respect like a firearm. We had three girls, and my brother's two boys came over often. I took them all shooting, and never had a problem. I treated every trip to the range the same way I learned in Army basic training; I was the range officer and enforced the rules. We never had toy guns in our house, so there was never any confusion. I also tried to teach that the guns were not to be used for "blasting" stuff, or handled in a cavalier fashion. I keep my guns locked up except for the home defense pistol in the sock drawer. Our granddaughter has never seen that one.

Wayne

[44man]

I grew up with toy guns. Those cap guns were so much fun. I made guns from wood. We made shields and armor and toy swords, slingshots and anything that could be thrown or shot.
My father did not shoot or own a gun, I was on my own all day and we played at everything, life was good. We ALL knew the difference between real and toys without any teaching at all. Nobody ever got hurt. It was our generation.
Cowboy movies had the good guy shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand, nobody ever died.
Today it is all violence and blood, movies and games.
I had two girls, taught them REAL early to shoot and respect and to also teach their friends. I had no safe, unloaded guns were never touched and were just a piece of furniture, common as a pot in the kitchen. I never hid a gun and never had to worry.
My one daughter went on to shoot the highest score ever shot by a woman in the Marine Corps.
Today liberals allow violence to be shown and HIDE stuff from children. I don't think children today are as smart because they are taught wrong in school by liberals. Parents are out of the loop and many do not care.
There is nothing wrong with toy guns and playing cowboys and bad guys.
I hunt and love the animals I hunt and also protect them when needed. Kids that never hunt lose respect and love. Those without a pet lose respect and love.
Human life is not respected. We have radicals and drugs where profit and religion take over. Kids get immune to violence or are taught to do violence.
The world is different but a parent must take the reins and not leave the school to control.
Our wounded warriors come home and are forgotten by this government.
Then I see President Bush with them and cry for his greatness and love.
We will see more violence because it meets the liberal way to control.

[blackthorn]

44man---Well said sir!

[popper]

44man - amen. I have 2 GS I can turn loose in the house and not worry about anything. 2 GS that I have to watch like a hawk. Totally related to parenting (guns are in the safe when kids are around - always). We played army with chewing gum wrapper made rifles, made rubber band guns, water guns, all the fun stuff. Even took cap pistols to school for recess sport, no problem. We knew the difference between play and reality.

[41 mag fan]

44 man summed it up real good. Kids are immuned at a very early age to violence and what violence looks like and the methods of violence. It's all because of the TV. What used to be Leave it to Beaver, Andy Griffith, Gunsmoke ect, is now Bevis and Butthead, Misson Impossible movies, zombie movies, and just about everything else out there where blood, gore, and death are graphically shown.
What used to be 30+ yrs ago, of kids playing in the neighborhood in the evening, parents eating supper together, hunting was still a tradition for many, and a TV was local channels, is now kids sitting in front of a TV in their room playing video games that portray violence, single parent homes wherre you eat in front of the TV, hunting is something you watch on TV that has satellite or cable and local channels are for the weather only.
Guns are not part of a household like they was 40,50, 60 + yrs ago. Guns are now something you see on TV, where you watch the bad guy get shot and killed, and the good guy gets filled with bullet holes and still manages to kiss the girl in the show and walk off happily ever after with her.
Guns in years gone by, were a household thing, kids were taught respect and safety from day 1 when they could walk and talk, and it carried with them thru life, and they passed it along to their kids.
But somewhere along the line of time, things changed, society has degraded, more urban sprawl, less dependancy on hunting for food, the 2 family unit went to a 1 family unit, TV became more graphic, and kids stopped playing together in the neighborhood, due to the perverts coming out of the closet and becoming more bold due to lax judicial laws, drugs became more prolific and seen as a way to make money, so gangs were formed to protect their illegal doings.
What used to be parents covering kids eyes and or ears if something was seen or heard as inappropriate on TV or amongst adult conversation, is now left to be watched or heard.
What used to be Sundays, getting up and going to church, is now sleeping in.
What society used to view as morally wrong, because it had morals, is now viewed morally wrong to have any morals.
It's taken several generations to get where we are today, and it'll take several generations to reverse where we are today.


We knew the difference between play and reality.

Sad popper as you're right on. Kids and even adults past times these days are video games that are so graphic they look like reality.
Hard to know the difference when you grow up being desensitized from day 1.

[Bzcraig]

Maybe I over simplify, but you can't remove the human element. Educated people do stupid things! Smart people do stupid things! Even the extremely well trained have times of inconsistency. The best we can hope for is mitigating by all means possible and appropriate. The loss of a child is and always will be a horrible tragedy especially when in the instances we speak of are ALWAYS preventable. Sadly, they will continue.

[mold maker]

Maybe I over simplify, but you can't remove the human element. Educated people do stupid things! Smart people do stupid things! Even the extremely well trained have times of inconsistency. The best we can hope for is mitigating by all means possible and appropriate. The loss of a child is and always will be a horrible tragedy especially when in the instances we speak of are ALWAYS preventable. Sadly, they will continue.

I offered to provide the Eddie Eagle Program for the school my grandchildren attend.
I was told in no uncertain terms that, "nothing to do with guns would be taught there".
These folks are the product of our institutions of higher learning. They were taught by uneducated idiots of higher learning.
It's no wonder that there is an innate curiosity toward guns by our newest generation. They see only the glorified gun use on TV and movies, where the consequences are a total unreality.
There is a void that desperately needs to be filled.

[blackthorn]

41 mag fan--- you left out probably the most important point of all--- there is no accountability anymore. Kids are no longer held accountable for getting good grades, showing up for school on time (if at all), and adults are given a slap on the wrist for doing things that would have gotten them hanged when I was a kid! It is all somebody elses fault now. Society makes excuses for bad/criminal behaviour and pass laws that put the scum back among us to do it again.

[Geraldo]

He went on to say "I was amazed by some figures that our political liason officer presented last evening at the meeting. A study done by a consortium of colleges and universities over a 10 year period shows that more than 4 hours of firearm instruction becomes counterproductive."

My friend did not specify that the four hours is at one time or in total. I'm guessing it's at one time.

I've heard from people that have attended a CHP class or a hunter safety education course that went 8 to 10 hours. Even with the breaks and lunch recess, they all said they couldn't wait to get out. I remember a couple of people saying the constant drone of the "blah, blah, blah" drove them nuts and it was all they could do to pay attention and pass the test.

I've gotten off track. This has nothing to do with the original subject.

Two points on this:

First is that it was probably a poorly designed study.

Second is that I think there's a lot of poor firearms instruction out there. If a class consists of an instant expert running his mouth for eight hours it's going to get old after the first fifteen minutes. The worst possible way to teach to stand in front of someone and spew information. Wait, that's the second worst, the first is to have someone stand up and read Power Point slides.

Back to the original topic. You can buy a car with cash or credit, but you can't legally operate it without taking a minimum of training and then proving skill and knowledge. New gun owner training wouldn't be a bad thing if it were initiated and run by the NRA and retailers instead of the government.

[Bzcraig]

Mold Maker,

I spend a significant amount of time at an elementary school as a chaplain and they are not even allowed to say 'gun!' I was talking to another adult and mentioned 'paintball gun' and one of the kids overheard and corrected me. So, your right, rather than educate, it's ignored. But, it is we as parents who should be teaching our kids at home and not leaving it up to the school only. Shame on those who do then complain about the liberal direction this country is moving.

[41 mag fan]

41 mag fan--- you left out probably the most important point of all--- there is no accountability anymore. Kids are no longer held accountable for getting good grades, showing up for school on time (if at all), and adults are given a slap on the wrist for doing things that would have gotten them hanged when I was a kid! It is all somebody elses fault now. Society makes excuses for bad/criminal behaviour and pass laws that put the scum back among us to do it again.

You're right blackthorn...Thank You for pointing that one out, as i did forget about the accountability for ones own actions.

[10x]

I am sorry to rain on the "safety course" parade.

There is no evidence that a firearms user safety course prevents firearms accidents or has influenced the firearms accident rate anywhere in the world. Conventional wisdom tells us that the safety course should reduce accidents. There has been no research that correlates the introduction of mandatory firearms safety courses to any reduction in the firearms (gunshot) accident rate. Research has shown that firearms accidents are a subset of the overall accident rate. The overall accident rate has been decreasing in both the U.S.A. and Canada since 1974. The firearms accident rate has been decreasing as a subset of the overall accident rate. Comparing the accident rate of states with no mandatory firearms safety training for hunting licenses to states without mandatory safety training requirements - there is no statistical difference in accident rate.

In fact in Canada the mandatory firearms safety course required to get a firearms license has not had any effect on either the firearms accident rate or the firearms crime rate.
The mandatory firearms safety course in Canada has become a barrier to getting a gun license and that barrier is set by limiting the number of folks qualified to deliver the safety course.

Do safety courses work to reduce accidents? They possibly do. There has been no indication in the firearm accident data to indicate they have had a measurable statistical effect.
How ever - if safety courses prevent accidents and accidents do not happen, then what does not happen can not be counted. That may be why there is no measurable statistical effect - or not....
The only way is to compare accident rates prior to the introduction of the safety course and after the introduction of the safety course - accounting for the existing population of gun owners without the safety course.

Canada has two distinct groups of legal gun owners. Those with a P.A.L. and those with a P.O.L. - The P.A.L. is Possession and Acquisition License for firearms. The P.O.L. is a Possession Only License. The difference between the two groups is that ALL P.A.L. holders have taken and passed a mandatory 8 hour safety course on firearms handling and law. P.O.L. holders have not taken this course. There is no statistical difference in the accident rate between the two identifiable groups. Bottom line - gun safety is so simple that safety courses (Mandatory) are not effective in preventing accidents.

Gun safety is paramount. But the gun accident record per 100,000 uses of a firearm is extremely low. Consider that each time a gun is fired it is used. Also consider that each time a gun is brought out for display or a safety course, or carried for protection - it is "in use". The actual accident rate for firearms while in use is incredibly low. So low that the impact of a safety course on that accident rate is not statistically measurable.

I teach and promote gun safety with this knowledge but in the hopes that my safety course may save someone from grief and expense in the future.

And gun safety courses have nothing to do with the criminal use of guns. Criminals do not really care if they hurt others with a gun or not.

As for restrictive gun laws, I suggest folks read this study done on Canada's rather draconian gun laws and their effect on crime published in 2012
(this study includes the introduction of gun safety courses, and the period of time where gun dealer numbers were reduced to 1/4 of what they were in 1990)



Research in Canada shows that no legal sanctions against gun owners including a licensing system with a intensive police background check has had any influence on criminal use of guns.

(Langmann, 2012, Canadian Firearms Legislation and Effects on Homicide 1974 to 2008 - Sage publications)

Canadian Firearms Legislation and Effects on Homicide 1974 to 2008

Caillin Langmann, MD, PhD1

1McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Caillin Langmann, McMaster University, Division of Emergency Medicine, HHSC, Hamilton General Hospital Site, McMaster Clinic 2nd Floor, Hamilton, Ontario L8L 2X2, Canada Email: langmann@alumni.sfu.ca

Abstract

Canada has implemented legislation covering all firearms since 1977 and presents a model to examine incremental firearms control. The effect of legislation on homicide by firearm and the subcategory, spousal homicide, is controversial and has not been well studied to date. Legislative effects on homicide and spousal homicide were analyzed using data obtained from Statistics Canada from 1974 to 2008. Three statistical methods were applied to search for any associated effects of firearms legislation. Interrupted time series regression, ARIMA, and Joinpoint analysis were performed. Neither were any significant beneficial associations between firearms legislation and homicide or spousal homicide rates found after the passage of three Acts by the Canadian Parliament—Bill C-51 (1977), C-17 (1991), and C-68 (1995)—nor were effects found after the implementation of licensing in 2001 and the registration of rifles and shotguns in 2003. After the passage of C-68, a decrease in the rate of the decline of homicide by firearm was found by interrupted regression. Joinpoint analysis also found an increasing trend in homicide by firearm rate post the enactment of the licensing portion of C-68. Other factors found to be associated with homicide rates were median age, unemployment, immigration rates, percentage of population in low-income bracket, Gini index of income equality, population per police officer, and incarceration rate.

This study failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates between 1974 and 2008


BTW there has been no measurable effect on mandatory gun storage laws on firearms accidents either. Canada has those as well.

[smokeywolf]

10x,
Very well written. Made me think a little deeper. The actual numbers of gun owners would be difficult to quantify with much accuracy; at least in the U.S. The number of accidental/negligent discharges by gun owners impossible to quantify, as many surely occur in the home or home shop, resulting in no injuries and therefore going unreported. Plus, as you said, the overall number of "accidents" with guns is so small, that alone makes it impossible to arrive at an accurate or believable statistical result.

smokeywolf

[10x]

10x,
Very well written. Made me think a little deeper. The actual numbers of gun owners would be difficult to quantify with much accuracy; at least in the U.S. The number of accidental/negligent discharges by gun owners impossible to quantify, as many surely occur in the home or home shop, resulting in no injuries and therefore going unreported. Plus, as you said, the overall number of "accidents" with guns is so small, that alone makes it impossible to arrive at an accurate or believable statistical result.

smokeywolf

Thank you very much! I have been following research on the effect of gun laws since 1968 when the U.S. passed restrictions on military imports.

It is very important that every gun owner read "Confrontational Politics" by Sen Wm. Richardson (ret.) available from G.O.A. ( Gun Owners of America).
Mr. Richardson describes how the politicians have compromised and sacrificed the rights of gun owners in order to appease those who are vocal and anti gun owner.
The anti gun folk ask for a complete ban. The politicians sacrifice a small number of gun owners - usually one class ( the current cry for an "assault weapon/semi auto ban) is an example. The politicians say "Hey we will push this small group of gun owners in front of the bus after we blame them for a crime committed by a single individual. Maybe that will shut the anti gun owner crowd up for a while!". The anti gun crowd sees this as success and it encourages them to press on for the next change.
Politicians appear to "do something about crime"
and get votes. The average law abiding gun owner /citizen gets screwed and faces legal liability.
That is the case here in Canada - and it is coming to a state near you!

[Ramar]

I believe there should be no compromise when legislating with regards to the 2nd. NFA firearms are a good example of what compromise will eventually get you....
Ramar

[TXGunNut]

Well written, 10x. Quite honestly I had trouble believing your article and had to re-read it this morning. Then I oversimplified it so I could understand it and determined that laws don't make us safer. NOW I understand it.
Keep trying, mold maker. Even kids that grow up in a household without guns may have playmates that have guns in the house. Eddie Eagle isn't about guns, it's about safety. Maybe someday school admin types will understand that.











.

[10x]

Thank you very much! I have been following research on the effect of gun laws since 1968 when the U.S. passed restrictions on military imports.

It is very important that every gun owner read "Confrontational Politics" by Sen Wm. Richardson (ret.) available from G.O.A. ( Gun Owners of America).
Mr. Richardson describes how the politicians have compromised and sacrificed the rights of gun owners in order to appease those who are vocal and anti gun owner.
The anti gun folk ask for a complete ban. The politicians sacrifice a small number of gun owners - usually one class ( the current cry for an "assault weapon/semi auto ban) is an example. The politicians say "Hey we will push this small group of gun owners in front of the bus after we blame them for a crime committed by a single individual. Maybe that will shut the anti gun owner crowd up for a while!". The anti gun crowd sees this as success and it encourages them to press on for the next change.
Politicians appear to "do something about crime"
and get votes. The average law abiding gun owner /citizen gets screwed and faces legal liability.
That is the case here in Canada - and it is coming to a state near you!


I believe there should be no compromise when legislating with regards to the 2nd. NFA firearms are a good example of what compromise will eventually get you....
Ramar


Thank you!
The simple answer is that politicians make restrictive gun laws and ban guns outright to appease a very vocal portion of the population who do not like guns or gun owners.
Gun owners do not "compromise" - they accept that the Politicians compromise and create bad, ineffective law, that removes guns from the hands of the law abiding, and does nothing to stop crime.

There is nothing magical or special about any gun, including assault rifles, that changes the values and morality of the individual who is in possession of it. It is just a mechanical device that shoots a bullet. The design of the device does not give folks criminal values or criminal intent. Nor does the design of the device ( in this case a gun) have any power to influence or control folks thoughts. To believe that is to believe in demonic possession, magic, and witch craft.