625 does the 45 acp case headspace on the case mouth, the moon clip, or both?

[makicjf]

I am curious if , when using a moon clip I can roll crimp into the crimp groove on the lee 252 swc. In order to get a decent taper crimp I have to load to an oal of 1.190-1.185. If I can crimp into the crimp groove ( the round can headspace well enough to avoid light strikes) with moon clips I can run at or around 1.120 or longer. I am curious if it will work, plus if the added case space would have any benefit. I'm currently running 5.8 of unique at the above oal (1.190-1.185) . I think I could run the charge up a bit if I could get a longer oal ( somewhere around 6 of unique, spper #12 lists 6.2 as max.) This would make a 45 acp essentially a 45 colt loaded with moon clips. I like that idea! Will it work, or is it even neccasary?
Thanks!
Jason

[wallenba]

It headpaces on the moon clip as if it, were the rim. You can, in fact shoot the 45 auto rim cartridge in it without the moon clip, using the same boolits and load. I routinely put a roll crimp on mine with the 200 SWC.

[Fluxed]

I'd sure test it out thoroughly before depending on it. The gun is made to headspace with the case mouth at the end of the chamber. I think that headspacing on the moon clip is a happy coincidence.

[HATCH]

You can shoot a loose 45 acp if you want to.
I own three 625s in 45acp
Without the clip it headspaces on the case.

[runfiverun]

the ar case rims are designed to mimick the acp cases with the moon clip.
hence their extra thickness.
you can fire the acp rounds without the clip but you have to use the case mouth to headspace the round.
sometimes this leaves the round a titch short for the firing pin to reach the primer in some guns.

[MtGun44]

Depends on case lengths. In the 80s, I never saw a case that was anywhere near trim length.
For them, the moon clip sets headspace. Current brass seems to be about .005 or even .010
longer than it was then, on the avg, so probably clips but with long brass and a short cyl, maybe
not. Normally it will work either way, the tolerances are tight enough.

Bill

[wallenba]

Shooting without the moon clips requires a taper crimp. Also, the extractor will not eject the cases. Loading the moon clips can be a pain, but with this tool it's easy http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/25534/catid/24/CCW_Moon_Clip_Loading__Unloading_Tool__45ACP Buy lots of moon clips if you go this route. They work like speed loaders, and keep all the brass together. When I go to the range I load a bunch at home to save time reloading. When you pay for range time it helps. Also, in my 625, the firing pin would just barely strike the primer without the moon clip, I don't believe that model was meant to be used without it like the Ruger SA can.

[Char-Gar]

My 625 won't allow the use of ACP brass without clips, so there is no problem with roll crimping in the groove of a SWC bullet.

The 625 was designed for the gamesmen who need the moon clips for a quick reload. The older 1917s and 25s had a wider headspace shoulder.

[HATCH]

My 625 won't allow the use of ACP brass without clips.

Unless the cylinders were bored out to 460 Rowland it should work with loose rounds.
I only taper crimp my 45s as i have a 1911 that i shoot as well.

[Hickory]

When I go to the range I load a bunch at home to save time reloading


Here in the buckeye state - Ohio, a loaded clip, magazine or speed loaded is considered a loaded gun while in a motor vehicle.
No wording on if the gun needs to be there also.

[JSH]

I think it may depend. I have a first year production and it was chambered as a rimed cartridge with a tapered chamber. It was recut and still won't as sw didn't leave much to begin with bit it does shoot 100% better than it did when new.
Jeff

[wallenba]

Here in the buckeye state - Ohio, a loaded clip, magazine or speed loaded is considered a loaded gun while in a motor vehicle.
No wording on if the gun needs to be there also.

In Michigan if you possess a CPL ( concealed pistol license ), it's OK. However, our CPL's cover ONLY handguns, a loaded rifle magazine may get you in trouble.

[M-Tecs]

My two 625’s (model of 1998) and my 1955 45 acp are normally shot without clips. Never had an issue. I only use clips when I need the speed of loading. When you use the moon clips they provide the headspace. You can roll crimp as much as you want.

For OAL I think you mean 1.200 or longer. Not 1.120. Using a roll crimp cylinder length will dictate max OAL.

[wallenba]

Well, it seems I learned something new here. That S&W has offered these revolvers in a couple of different flavors. Mine is a newer 625JM (got it in 2008 I think), and I had no previous experience with any 45 ACP wheel gun.

[makicjf]

You are right I meant 1.20 or longer. I think the crimp groove will put the oal around 1.25 to 1.30. maybe a touch longer. I'll find out tonight

[Char-Gar]

I find these kinds of discussions frustrating because folks take their experience and project that as the norm for all. I am no less guilty of that than anybody else. So, in the interest of clarity let me just give the following information;

I have one Colt 1917, three Smith and Wesson 1917s (Brazilian contract), two Smith and Wesson 1955 Target Models and one Smith and Wesson 625. I bought the 625 new the first year of production which was 1989. I like them all.

I took out the pistols and tools and this is what I found. The 625 will allow a factory round to enter the charge hole .005 deeper than any of the others. This means the hammer has an additional .005 travel to hit the primer and the fired round has an additional .005 headspace between the case head and the recoil shield.

The net result is without clips I get inconsistent ignition and lesser accuracy. The rounds will fire without clips, but performance does suffer. Use clips or better yet Auto Rim cases and accuracy will increase quite noticeable.

When the 625 first came out, they were intended for the bowling pin shooters who needed lightening fast reloads with the full moon clips. The charge holes have a slight taper on the rear where the headspace shelf lives, decreasing the width of the shelf. The shelf is also located .005 or so deeper as I mention above. This was done by Smith and Wesson to accommodate the bowling pin shooters who mostly used fairly heavy blunt nose lead bullets to push those pins off the table. The modifications would allow the shooters to toss in a clip of new rounds and continue to shoot. Without these modification, it sometimes took a little jiggling to get all six rounds to fully chamber, which cost them time. Those of us who bought these pistols noticed the difference right away and we all commented on the change. Throw in the fact that Smith and Wesson reduced the size of the throats (from previous 45 DA sixguns) from .455 - .456 to .453 in the 625. This reduction aggravated the problem of a fast reload with clips, using heavy lead blunt nose bullets.

Now, I don't' know what your 625 will or won't do, but this is the straight skinny about the difference in early 625s from pervious Smith and Wesson 45 ACP DA sixguns and the reason for the difference. Has this changed since 1989? I have no idea. I can only comment on the one pistol sitting on my desk as I type this.

My 625 is a sterling performer with clips or AR case, but not so much when ACP cases are used without clips. My previous post on this issue was done in haste on my IPad and here is a more complete version.

[M-Tecs]

Well, it seems I learned something new here. That S&W has offered these revolvers in a couple of different flavors. Mine is a newer 625JM (got it in 2008 I think), and I had no previous experience with any 45 ACP wheel gun.



Model info here http://45acprevolver.com/smith-wesson-model-625.html

[makicjf]

Your facts seem to back what I have found. Without moonclips light strikes are common. "heavy' 255 and 260 swc and rnfp fall in easily, yet require a gentle nudge to headspace well in my vaquero and blackhawk. I did in fact buy this to have a big bore double action that would reload quickly, which it does. The 230 tc is the fastest, but 255 rnfp and 252 swc drop in well. Every now and then the swc shoulder requires a giggle or a poke, but just fractions of a second. Reloads are easily 2-4 seconds from hammer drop to hammer drop. It is one hole accurate single action (for me) at 30 feet. A great weapon all around.
Thanks for the data. I am just learning a double action trigger stroke, so I am sure the gun is far better than I am at this point. Is there a "double action" secret to not having the webbing bewteen your thumb and index finger not get banged up? Recoils control is very different between this and the single actions I am used to shooting.
Jason

[Char-Gar]

Makicfj... Ruger 45 ACP cylinders often can be cranky with cast bullet loads. They have no taper at the rear end of the throat and often there are micro-burrs there as well. I cured mine and now is a slick loading and slick shooting handgun with the 45 ACP cylinder in place, here is how I did it.

Using a 30-06 case as a lap and some 600 grit Clover lapping compound, coat the case/lap and give it 20 full turns, remove clean and do it again for a total of 100 revolutions per chamber. This does take some time, but is worth the effort. When you are through, there will be no burrs and a slight .0005 taper on the very rear end of the cylinder throat.

I catch the cylinder in the padded jaws of the vise and use a pair of Vise-Grips to turn the case.

[Tatume]

My 625-3 works perfectly with or without clips. There are no light strikes, and no misfires in many thousands of rounds fired.

[daniel lawecki]

M-Tecs is right I shoot my Smith&Wesson without moon clips all the time. And I can't till the difference in group size function

[pipehand]

I've been shooting my 625-2 since 1988. I'm not sure what a "floating hand" is, but my revolver has been utterly reliable in competition. I have been wanting to use the RCBS 45-230 CM mold, and roll crimp into the crimp groove, because the taper crimp on a regular 230 grain roundnose drags a bit on the entrance to the cylinder. For those of you using a roll crimp, what brand of die do you use? I have some Remington 45AR cases, but I haven't used them much as they tend to let the boolits jump crimp for some reason when used with a taper crimp. Thin brass possibly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't know about all of this technical stuff,,, BUt I want one! have for along time. Missed a nice blued one at a gun show a couple of years ago, and I vowed not to let that happen again.

I want the 4" BBl version which I believe is a 625-8 but I don't really care for the full JM treatment. I want a real hammer, a Partridge front sight, and some nice rubber Houge grips.

At my current position in life I have aquired just about every firearm I have ever wanted, this is one of the very few I am missing.

Maybe one will appear soon. I can already load for it.

Randy

[Dale53]

I have a pair of 625's (a 4" JM Special Model 625-8 and a 5" Model of 1989 625-6). Neither of mine work well without clips using .45 ACP brass. However, using clips they work flawlessly (my fastest reload is with the Lee 230 gr TC with normal lube groove). My most used bullet is the Mihec version of the H&G #68 (near perfect copy) 200 gr SWC.

My heavy load is the NOE version of the Lyman 454424 250 gr SWC ahead of 7.0 grs of Unique giving 900+ fps.

I have a house full of centerfire revolvers but those two 625's are my most used revolvers. Frankly, I mostly shoot target loads (4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent - currently 4.0 grs of Titegroup) with the 200 gr SWC. I prefer Auto Rim cases for range and heavy bullet use.

Roll crimped loads work perfectly well in my revolvers when using .45 ACP cases and clips.

I mostly use RIMZ polymer clips as they require no tools. I have a complement of tools for the steel clips but seldom use them.

FWIW
Dale53

[imashooter2]

My 625-8 is unreliable without moons. You can easily see the difference in headspace when they aren't used.

[makicjf]

I loaded some lee 252 swc to an oal of 1.20 and used a 45 colt factory crimp die to roll crimp. In order for them to chamber with out a push, I had to run them through the 45 acp crimp die with out the crimp engaged- this ironed out the wrinkles. After that they worked well. I think I am going to abandon the thought for two reasons. Firstly if the rounds are roll crimped they can only be used in the 625, not the 1911 or any of the three rugers with 45 acp cylinders. Secondly, I am not certain .2 more grains of unique and very few fps extra is worth the extra step and having weapon specific pistol ammo ammo. If a 255 grain swc at 800 does not work, I doubt one at 845 will make any difference. It was fun to try, but think the downsides out way the gain.
Thanks for all the input. I really like the pistol, I just wish I was a better DA shot. Group sizes easily double, if not 2.5 times larger and with heavier bullets the recoil stings the web of my hand. More trigger time and reasoned practice will be the answer

[Dale53]

makicjf;
I would like to make a couple of observations. If you call Lee Precision and ask to speak to a .45 ACP Technician, he will sell you a roll crimp insert AND adapter for the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I load the heavy bullets strictly in .45 Auto Rim Cases and use the roll crimp. They work perfectly in my two 625's. I, too, load my .45 ACP cases with a Mihec version of the H&G #68 loaded so it will work in my 1911's as well as my 625's. I am in full agreement with you about trying to segregate ammo. The Auto Rim loads are obviously meant only for the revolvers. The .45 ACP's I can and do use in either.

Regarding the recoil of the heavy bullets in the 625. If you have "standard" or larger hands, Pachmayr grips will solve your problem. I use them on all of my revolvers (even the single actions except the Bisley's that are not available).

Here's what I am talking about:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/SW625-8JMSpecial-3349.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/SW625-8JMSpecial-3349.jpg.html)

FWIW
Dale53

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dale: I had a set of Pachmayer grips on my M29 and they made the gun much easier to shoot with heavy loads, and lighter ones too.

One like your's is definately the gun I want, except I would probably forgo the red dot for the time being. A green FO front sight will do it for me.

Randy

[Dale53]

W. R.;

I lost the vision in my right eye about three years or so ago and had to switch to my left eye (shooting right handed). With Red Dot sights, I was able to "find my mojo" in just a couple of sessions switching from the right eye to the left eye. I was quite surprised how quick the transition was done. I now have Red Dots on most of my handguns.

Dale53

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dale: I love the quick target aquistion of a dot site.

I have Bushnell TRS-25's mounted on my Kel-Tec SU 16 and nearly mounted to my Kel-Tec Sub2000. I love them on the rifles but have not mounted them to my Glocks specifically because they won't holster up.

I walso would not hesitate to mount one on my .44 Marlin 1894 or a Guide gun. For the intended usage you'd be hard pressed to find a better way to sight a levergun for shooting pigs and such.

Randy

[Outpost75]

My 625 Model of 1989 requires either ACP brass in clips or Auto Rim brass. Loose. 45ACP fall so far into the chambers that the firing pin will not set them off.

[Freischütz]

My 22-4 requires AR cases or clips for reliable ignition. Using just 45 ACP cases will produce about one misfire per six round cylinder. In comparison my Colt M1917 does not require clips or AR cases. Every loose 45 ACP round fires.

[makicjf]

I decided on a 45 acp loaded with a lee 252 swc ( weighs 255) loaded over 6.3 of unique with a roll crimp at a 1.205 oal as 625 only loads. As they come off the press they are snapped into moonies and checked for drop and rotation. The roll crimp lets them drop without hanging if i have the bbl pointed straight down. Lee said they did not have a 45 ar roll crimp so i use the 45 colt. out of one hundred rounds I may have to iron one with the 45 acp factory crimp. 99 drop well. This turns the 45 acp into a de facto 45 colt. I do not have a chrono but should be around 825-840 fps. the roll crimp ensures they do not go into a 1911, though the lee 255 rnfp over 6.2 of unique sized to .452 with an oal of 1.20 taper crimped to .470 shoots great in a 1911 and feeds well, too. I can not tell the difference between the standard recoil spring and the 18.5 in case ejection distance (5-8 feet with both). I shot my second IPSC match this weekend ( with a pulled hammy-- no running for me) and the gun shot well-- the 255's really thumped the steel. I had to pull the pachymayr decelorator off to tighten the tensioning screw when I had 4 light strikes in a row ( wrecked that stage!). The pachymayr really tames the load . I had glued it toghether as the wrinkles where it wrapped bugged me. Is there a slide on grip with similiar properties that is easier to remove and slightly less squishy? I have a hard time getting a quick and correct grip consistently. With practice i could get better, but am open to other options with similiar recoil control properties but a more solid feel. Does that exist?
Also, my cylinder release screw and " base pin" keep backing out; is lock tight a reaonable thing or will a dab bind up something which needs to move?
Will the x frame 500 grip fit the 625? It is not listed but reading elsewhere makes me think it will.
Thanks!
Jason

[Maximumbob54]

My 625-3 works perfectly with or without clips. There are no light strikes, and no misfires in many thousands of rounds fired.

My 3" 625-3 has been the same. The only issue I've had was with some ill fitting RIMZ plastic clips and that's not the fault of the gun.

[Maximumbob54]

I decided on a 45 acp loaded with a lee 252 swc ( weighs 255) loaded over 6.3 of unique with a roll crimp at a 1.205 oal as 625 only loads. As they come off the press they are snapped into moonies and checked for drop and rotation. The roll crimp lets them drop without hanging if i have the bbl pointed straight down. Lee said they did not have a 45 ar roll crimp so i use the 45 colt. out of one hundred rounds I may have to iron one with the 45 acp factory crimp. 99 drop well. This turns the 45 acp into a de facto 45 colt. I do not have a chrono but should be around 825-840 fps. the roll crimp ensures they do not go into a 1911, though the lee 255 rnfp over 6.2 of unique sized to .452 with an oal of 1.20 taper crimped to .470 shoots great in a 1911 and feeds well, too. I can not tell the difference between the standard recoil spring and the 18.5 in case ejection distance (5-8 feet with both). I shot my second IPSC match this weekend ( with a pulled hammy-- no running for me) and the gun shot well-- the 255's really thumped the steel. I had to pull the pachymayr decelorator off to tighten the tensioning screw when I had 4 light strikes in a row ( wrecked that stage!). The pachymayr really tames the load . I had glued it toghether as the wrinkles where it wrapped bugged me. Is there a slide on grip with similiar properties that is easier to remove and slightly less squishy? I have a hard time getting a quick and correct grip consistently. With practice i could get better, but am open to other options with similiar recoil control properties but a more solid feel. Does that exist?
Also, my cylinder release screw and " base pin" keep backing out; is lock tight a reaonable thing or will a dab bind up something which needs to move?
Will the x frame 500 grip fit the 625? It is not listed but reading elsewhere makes me think it will.
Thanks!
Jason

The X frame grip will fit any round but K/L/N but on the N it will be a little tight at the top due to the bit of extra frame mass.

[1500FPS]

I find these kinds of discussions frustrating because folks take their experience and project that as the norm for all. I am no less guilty of that than anybody else. So, in the interest of clarity let me just give the following information;

I have one Colt 1917, three Smith and Wesson 1917s (Brazilian contract), two Smith and Wesson 1955 Target Models and one Smith and Wesson 625. I bought the 625 new the first year of production which was 1989. I like them all.

I took out the pistols and tools and this is what I found. The 625 will allow a factory round to enter the charge hole .005 deeper than any of the others. This means the hammer has an additional .005 travel to hit the primer and the fired round has an additional .005 headspace between the case head and the recoil shield.

The net result is without clips I get inconsistent ignition and lesser accuracy. The rounds will fire without clips, but performance does suffer. Use clips or better yet Auto Rim cases and accuracy will increase quite noticeable.

When the 625 first came out, they were intended for the bowling pin shooters who needed lightening fast reloads with the full moon clips. The charge holes have a slight taper on the rear where the headspace shelf lives, decreasing the width of the shelf. The shelf is also located .005 or so deeper as I mention above. This was done by Smith and Wesson to accommodate the bowling pin shooters who mostly used fairly heavy blunt nose lead bullets to push those pins off the table. The modifications would allow the shooters to toss in a clip of new rounds and continue to shoot. Without these modification, it sometimes took a little jiggling to get all six rounds to fully chamber, which cost them time. Those of us who bought these pistols noticed the difference right away and we all commented on the change. Throw in the fact that Smith and Wesson reduced the size of the throats (from previous 45 DA sixguns) from .455 - .456 to .453 in the 625. This reduction aggravated the problem of a fast reload with clips, using heavy lead blunt nose bullets.

Now, I don't' know what your 625 will or won't do, but this is the straight skinny about the difference in early 625s from pervious Smith and Wesson 45 ACP DA sixguns and the reason for the difference. Has this changed since 1989? I have no idea. I can only comment on the one pistol sitting on my desk as I type this.

My 625 is a sterling performer with clips or AR case, but not so much when ACP cases are used without clips. My previous post on this issue was done in haste on my IPad and here is a more complete version.

Please take your 625 revolver and with a 45 acp case made from either a 308 or 30-06 (unless you have a 45 Win Mag case to cut down) keep trimming the OAL of the made case and when you finally get to where the cylinder will close and lock up with just a hair of clearance, measure the OAL of the case and post it here please. Thanks

[Char-Gar]

Please take your 625 revolver and with a 45 acp case made from either a 308 or 30-06 (unless you have a 45 Win Mag case to cut down) keep trimming the OAL of the made case and when you finally get to where the cylinder will close and lock up with just a hair of clearance, measure the OAL of the case and post it here please. Thanks

No thanks..that is a lot of work to trim back a rifle case to tell me something I already know i.e., use clips or Auto Rim cases for reliable firing of the pistol.

[1500FPS]

No thanks..that is a lot of work to trim back a rifle case to tell me something I already know i.e., use clips or Auto Rim cases for reliable firing of the pistol.

The revolver should have been made to fire both systems reliably. If the head space is for a 45 ACP by SAAMI is .898 MIN and .920 MAX. You must have a MAX one. That is the measurement I was wanting to know. Thanks for your help.

[Fluxed]

You can measure the headspace of your revolver (with your ammo) with a feeler gage.

The .45 ACP/AR S&W revolvers are intended to fire either cartridge and the ACP with or without clips. That late models do not always do this seems to be nothing other than questionable quality control. The -8 guns are infamous for tight chambers (smaller than SAAMI spec) that often will not chamber lead bullet reloads or when very dirty with even factory jacketed ball ammo.

There is a published standard for the chambers and cartridges we're talking about - you can find them at saami.org. For any manufacturer to vary from these standards seems a bad practice.

[Dale53]

makicjf;
I wanted to use a roll crimp for heavy bullets in my 625's. I called Lee, asked for a .45 ACP/Auto Rim tech, and asked him if I could use a .45 Colt insert in the .45 ACP Lee Factory Crimp Die. He said yes, but I would need to add a special spacer. I had him send my both (I think they may have cost $7.00 or so). It works perfectly to put a perfect roll crimp on either .45 ACP or Auto Rim cases (I ONLY use this on Auto Rim cases).

FWIW
Dale53

[makicjf]

perfect! Thank you!

[1500FPS]

You can measure the headspace of your revolver (with your ammo) with a feeler gage.

The .45 ACP/AR S&W revolvers are intended to fire either cartridge and the ACP with or without clips. That late models do not always do this seems to be nothing other than questionable quality control. The -8 guns are infamous for tight chambers (smaller than SAAMI spec) that often will not chamber lead bullet reloads or when very dirty with even factory jacketed ball ammo.

There is a published standard for the chambers and cartridges we're talking about - you can find them at saami.org. For any manufacturer to vary from these standards seems a bad practice.

I retrieved that MIN/MAX headspace of .898/.920 from SAAMI. To me that is a lot of leeway!!!

[Char-Gar]

The 45 ACP round was designed as a military round in a fighting handgun and I don't fine 22 thousands difference in headspace between minimum and maximum headspace to be remarkable.

[Fluxed]

I retrieved that MIN/MAX headspace of .898/.920 from SAAMI. To me that is a lot of leeway!!!

Sure its loose but as pointed out its a military type of spec and they wanted it to go bang everytime and never hang up. You can make your gun tighter by setting the cylinder back a bit but first, slip a feeler gage in behind some empty cases in the gun to see what the actual headspace of your gun is with your cases. S&W is all over the map on the guns made in the last 15 years or so. The good news is tighter throats, bad news is crappy dimensional control in the rest of the chamber. I shake my head when I see this as its not rocket surgery. Its simple metal working practice to hold way better dimensions than this.