Need help with 1873 Win. in 38-40

[ole pizen slinger]

Hello Fellers,
I've never posted to this site before but have read many of your topics. I recently purchased an original 1873 Winchester in 38-40. The action locks up fine and the barrel looks OK. I took it to the range and shot it. Load was 35 gn Goex 3f BP under a 170 gn cast bullet cast 20-1 and lubed with SPG. Accuracy was OK out to 50 yds for the first 10-15 shots. Then accuracy went to pot. I shot about 30 rounds before cleaning the rifle and going home. I guess I shot too many rounds before wiping the barrel out because it sure was a mess to get clean. Is this normal experience with this rifle and load? If it is, I wonder how the old timers lived through an Indian fight.

Next, any one using smokeless in this caliber? If so, I would appreciate any load information and experience you have had with this rifle and caliber. I don't think the bullets I am using for BP have big enough lube grooves to keep the fouling under control. Any help would be greatly appreciated. As additional info, I think this rifle was manufactured about 1884--it has a 167,xxx serial no.

ole pizen slinger

[Bent Ramrod]

Welcome aboard, Pizen Slinger. I don't have a .38-40 so I don't have any smokeless loads for you but the situation you describe is very common with black powder loads. It will happen in my .44-40 Low Wall unless I blow down the barrel between shots. Some people can "manage" black powder fouling by judicious choice of powder, loadings and lubricants; experience is a big help there.

I find Goex burns very fast and leaves pretty crusty fouling. The old Elephant burned slower and left the barrel cleaner, but in both cases breath moisture helped keep the shots accurate.

Remember the Indians and the bad guys were having the same fouling and accuracy issues as the soldiers and the good guys, so technology-wise, they were pretty even, if similarly armed.

[August]

I'm gonna guess it has a 24" or even longer barrel. It is pretty tough for a little (relatively speaking) 38 pistol round to carry enough lube down a long tube. I believe that is your problem. You might have to use a lube cookie under the bullet if you want to continue with Goex. Or, you might want to try to find a bullet that will carry more lube. Or, you might want to go to a 'sub' like APP or Pyrodex (yuck) which seem to work well with any kind, or amount of lube.

There is some kind of bullet called a 'big lube' out there that makes pistol cartridges work well in rifles. It has a giant lube groove for carrying lots-o-lube downstream.

Hope this helps.

p.s. Water (perhaps with a little Windex w/ vinegar) should have cleaned the barrel with one swipe. (yes, literally one swipe) You didn't try to clean it with Hoppes or some other such chemical, did you??? That would make a real mess.

Also, be sure all petroleum products are out of the bore before shooting. If the gun was put up with some oil in the bore, that would cause a serious problem with BP. Run an alcohol swab down the bore before shooting (or, better, use some Balistol)

[enfield]

I have a marlin 1889 in 38-40 and found it helped if I ran a patch down the barrel about every 5 shots. I use a homemade bullet (.403) with one lube groove and a mixture of bees wax, olive oil and some crisco type stuff. I have not shot a lot of bp in it yet but a nice mild smokeless load is 8 grains blue dot or 4.5 gr bullseye.with lee liq alox. it sounds about like a .22 and at 50 yards seems pretty good.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, and that is a right fine nom de plume.

I had a similar experience with my '73 in 44-40 using Goex 3F BP--accuracy lasted about 5-6 rounds. I'll have to be really bored before I try that again. I have muzzle-loaders I can play with if I want to use ramrods with frequency.

I don't have any time with 38-40, so I can't speak with experience on the subject. Maybe W30WCF will see your post and add some commentary--he has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know on this subject. He steered me right with the 44-40, for sure.

[JudgeBAC]

Balistol is the greatest stuff in the world for black powder. I dont have any experience with black in cartridge guns but I do shoot muzzleloaders and Remington cap and ball revolvers in cowboy shoots. Balistol keeps them running all day long.

[PatMarlin]

Ditto on the Ballistol. That stuf is all around wonderlube.. :drinks:

[w30wcf]

ole pizen slinger,
Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you have a neat piece of Winchester history.

To start with, today's black powders are inferior to the black powders in existence back in the days of yore. Back then, there were several b.p. producers in the U.S., each working to make a superior product. Those b.p.'s were cleaner and moist burning and thus would permit a number of shots to be fired before the barrel fouled out.

As an example of this, in Winchester's 1875 Catalog there is an illustration of a target fired by E. H. Pardee, M.D. of San Francisco, CA. He writes: "It affords me much pleasure to communicate to you the result of thirty successive shots at a distance of 110 yards, with one of the improved Winchester rifles (1873). The firing was done without wiping, whch proves the Winchester steady in her performance......" The 30 shots grouped within about 4” on the target.

Today, Swiss b.p. is the closest thing we have to the early b.p. and definitely is superior to Goex for use in a lever action rifle.

Of the three subs mentioned, I prefer Pyrodex since I don't get any throat leading in my '73 .44 W.C.F. as I do with 777 and APP. I have run a box full (50) of Pyrodex loaded cartridges through my gun with no loss of accuracy and ny rifle has a rough bore. Make sure that you clean your rifle well after shooting Pyrodex, otherwise, the chlorate will start to rust the barrel.

Does your bullet have 1 or 2 lube grooves?

Regarding smokeless loads, I prefer using the slower burning powders like the factories did many years ago. Alliant has data for the .38-40 with two of their slower powders here (please note that the velocity for RL7 is incorrect and should read 1,345 f.p.s.):
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=180&shellid=1093&bulletid=333.

Have fun with your ’73.:-D :Fire:

Al,
Thank you for the kind words.

Sincerely,
w30wcf