Last shot ever for my 44 Bulldog

[x101airborne]

For the last 10 years, I have enjoyed carrying my Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special. Well, today, she fired her last shot. I had noticed that the cylinder had started having some play in it, but it never spit lead or anything, so I kept going with it. Load was the MP 260 grain penta hp RF over 10 grains of blue dot and a standard primer. Dad was fussing about the small frame 5 shot scandium carry guns we had out stinging his hand. I went to the truck and produced my 44 Bulldog. Dad got ahold of it and went to cock the hammer. He had to attempt to cock it twice. I noticed it, but when it seemed to cock ok, I thought maybe it was just bound up at first. When he pulled the trigger, he said "Never Again" and handed it to me. I said "Where is the rest of my gun?" The topstrap was gone, three of the chambers were totally removed from the cylinder, two live rounds were gone and the casing of the fired round was gone also. The forcing cone was bulged slightly to the left and the bottom of the frame was stressed open just slightly.

At first after realizing what happened, he got a little sore at me and said "More of your damn hot loading." I emphatically told him that I NEVER load outside of the book. After looking at the weapon closely, I believe that the cylinder did not rotate fully into locked position and the nose of the round impacted the side of the forcing cone and over pressured the casing and chamber, thus causing the catastrophic failure described above.

Dad was a good sport and I hugged him saying I was glad he was ok. He went from mad (well, rightfully pissed) to apologetic, saying he did something to blow up my gun. I assured him that he did nothing wrong and I dont give a good darn about a 450.00 gun and I would give 1000 of them away to have him safe. Forget the gun. I can buy another. I cannot buy another eye, or jaw, or life. Had a large piece of shrapnel from that weapon hit him or I in the jugular, we would be dead before anyone knew it and we are only 3 miles from the hospital.

Dad wanted to keep the revolver for a suivenier (sp?) and I gladly gave it to him. We found one unfired round with the boolit still in tact and the other empty unfired casing with the boolit missing. Never found the top strap though. Dont know where it went. I did not have my camera on me because we were in the new truck and I keep the camera in the Deerslayer, but I will take pics of the thing when I go over there on Friday.

Again, God was watching out for me and mine. I dont know if I am living right to be so blessed, or just fall into the "fools, drunks, and idiots" category, but my blessings are many and apparent. Thank you, God for all you are and do for me.

Fellas, when your CA Bulldog starts showing wear, just send em in. I wish I had.

[rintinglen]

Thank goodness no one was hurt. You should buy lottery tickets!!
I doubt that the cause of the blow up was the timing issue, though until we see the pics, we can't be sure. I am really interested in the fired case. I am surprised that the round fired. The two guns that I saw that were blown out like you describe, were both likely victims of an error in powder charging. The first one, a Ruger SBH, let go when WW-231 was inadvertently mistaken for H-110, the second was a 38 S&W that likely had a double charge of Bullseye under a 148 grain wadcutter. I saw a third Gun, also a Ruger SBH, but that was not as badly dammaged as you describe and the bullet that stuck in the bore was still there. It will be interesting to see the pics and see what some of the brain trust has to say.
Again, it is a blessing that no one was seriously hurt.

[warf73]

Glad you and your dad are alrite.
I wouldn't have thought the gun would fire being so far out time (hitting primer) to be able to hit the side of the cone hard enough to cause a failure in the firearm. I've had spitters and got them fixed but nothing like your deal.

Again glad you all made it without injury.

[x101airborne]

I understand the thought that it was likely a double charge, but I dont think it is even possible to fit 20 grains of blue dot in a special case. I havent tried, but I doubt it. The reason I support the out of battery lock theory is only one side of the forcing cone was bulged and the cylinder was blown open. I am sure it could have happened anyway, but that is my thought.

[fishhawk]

Trey if it was that far out of battery how did the firing pin even hit the primer?

[theperfessor]

Glad all are OK.

It would be interesting to see the primer hit on the fired case. Too bad you couldn't find it.

Years ago I had a Bulldog that finally wore to the point that after about 1000 or so rounds it would not go into battery when you hammer cocked it slowly; you had to get on it with DA shooting to spin the cylinder hard enough for it to lock up.

I sold it to an aspiring amateur gunsmith with full disclosure of problem, he was going to fix it and keep it for shop gun.

With LP primers as used in a .44, IMHO it would barely be possible for it to be out of battery bad enough to cause problems. It would be a rare instance, but I think a possible one. I know how badly they wear. There just isn't a lot of metal in contact at high stress points.

[x101airborne]

I dont know for sure it happened the way I think. It is only my best guess. The only reason I think it happened this way is Dad had to pull the hammer twice. If everything was lined up without binding, why did he have to do that?

I have been loading for over 20 years and I have never double charged a case and not caught it. Could it have happened? Sure. Do I think it did? No.

I have worn out at least one of every make of handgun. Dont care what brand (well, other than magnum research. Never owned one of those, but I have big plans for the future.) Colt, Smith, Ruger, Taurus, Uberti, HR, name it.... small frame high energy weapons wear harder and faster than anything. And when this one started showing some wear, I should have retired it or sent it in. That is my fault, Not the weapons.

[x101airborne]

Glad all are OK.

It would be interesting to see the primer hit on the fired case. Too bad you couldn't find it.

Years ago I had a Bulldog that finally wore to the point that after about 1000 or so rounds it would not go into battery when you hammer cocked it slowly; you had to get on it with DA shooting to spin the cylinder hard enough for it to lock up.

I sold it to an aspiring amateur gunsmith with full disclosure of problem, he was going to fix it and keep it for shop gun.

With LP primers as used in a .44, IMHO it would barely be possible for it to be out of battery bad enough to cause problems. It would be a rare instance, but I think a possible one. I know how badly they wear. There just isn't a lot of metal in contact at high stress points.

Ya know, thinking about it.... What if the crane wasn't locked in and only the rear of the cylinder was locked? That may make it rotate hard. And would definately slam the boolit into the side of the forcing cone....

Thoughts?

[fishhawk]

Would be hard for me to believe that the crane was sprung that bad, but it's possible I guess.

[45 2.1]

Checking Aliant's web site reloading data, they do not list Blue Dot until you get down to a 240 gr. jacketed load and it's 10.2 gr. or so max (even if its 13K to 14K). Looking in some of the older Lyman manuals they list 10.0 gr. max. for a 245 gr. Keith. 44 Specials come in different strength revolvers.... you have/had a weak one and were shooting top end data in it.

[Char-Gar]

Let me guess...A progressive press?

[nagantguy]

If I remember correct this is two mericals for you and yours in just a few weeks. I am happy for you that no one was hurt. Remember to give praise where it is due. HE is looking out for you and your kin big-time.

[Char-Gar]

If I remember correct this is two mericals for you and yours in just a few weeks. I am happy for you that no one was hurt. Remember to give praise where it is due. HE is looking out for you and your kin big-time.

What do we say to the guy who blew is pistol up and lost an eye? God didn't look out after you? What do we say to the guy whose kid was killed by a drunk driver? God wasn't looking out for you and your kin?

My theology does not include a God who picks winners and loosers or have pets/favorites.

[x101airborne]

Let me guess...A progressive press?

No. Single stage Rockchucker.

[richhodg66]

I've had a Charter Bulldog about 22 years (bought used) and dad had one a long time before that with nary a problem. However, I do not shoot it a lot. I like the little guns, but they aren't the kind of thing I relish shooting a lot of rounds out of. I take it out and shoot it once or twice a year.

It has become my carry gun off the blacktop when legal hunting deer or hanging treestands, scouting, etc. First chamber is a birdshot load, the next four are JHPs. Sure is a lot easier to carry than the six inch Security Six I used to carry for that.

[Piedmont]

What do we say to the guy who blew is pistol up and lost an eye? God didn't look out after you? What do we say to the guy whose kid was killed by a drunk driver? God wasn't looking out for you and your kin?

My theology does not include a God who picks winners and loosers or have pets/favorites.

Oh, I don't know Mr. Preacher. How about "God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"? How about "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him."? That last is 2 Chronicles 16:9. Those two are just off the top of my head.

I read a Catholic writer once who said this was the problem with Protestantism. We can all read the bible and have our own opinion. Of course I didn't go to bible college, I'm just one of those poor fools who sits at home and reads the source itself.

[nagantguy]

What do we say to the guy who blew is pistol up and lost an eye? God didn't look out after you? What do we say to the guy whose kid was killed by a drunk driver? God wasn't looking out for you and your kin?

My theology does not include a God who picks winners and loosers or have pets/favorites.never had anyone give me a hard time before for telling someone they are blessed. I did not see anywhere in the post about a lost eye or someone killed by a drunk driver. Had I my response would have been different and appropriate for the situation. Sorry to have ruined your day sir no offense was intended.

[300savage]

Char-Gar just something to think about but a theology that works , works by example not defense or condemnation. Hope you find what your looking for someday.

[44man]

I find it hard to believe a cylinder can be out of time enough to either fire or damage a gun. I can't see a boolit from a special forcing a cone into deformation. No, I don't believe it, the cone was damaged another way from extreme pressure, not from boolit impact.
There are only two things involved here. A double charge or at least too much powder or there was a boolit lodged in the bore from previous shooting.
Did a proud primer fire at another chamber against the recoil plate?
A cylinder not locked will pull to lock, it is LOOSE. I seen many guns fire without full lockup with no damage. I have seen revolvers wear the cone and rifling away on one side from poor alignment.
Trouble cocking the gun might have been a proud primer drag.
I will not make any decision on this because I don't know.
Wear at the hand and ratchet means it was always shot dry. Lube is a wonderful thing.

[Char-Gar]

Oh, I don't know Mr. Preacher. How about "God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"? How about "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him."? That last is 2 Chronicles 16:9. Those two are just off the top of my head.

I read a Catholic writer once who said this was the problem with Protestantism. We can all read the bible and have our own opinion. Of course I didn't go to bible college, I'm just one of those poor fools who sits at home and reads the source itself.

OK..Let me see if I have this straight....

The dedicated young Christian couple who prayed to have a baby and did were diligently seeking God. When the same baby died of SIDS it was because they no longer were diligent in their seeking..is this right?

The young (26 years old) missionary who went down to Columbia to translate the Bible into a native language so those folks could read the Good News in their own tongue, and was kidnapped and murdered by leftist terrorists was because his heart was not perfect toward God...is that right?

I could give hundreds more examples of dedicated Christians who had very bad stuff in their life and according to you, it was all their fault because they were spiritually deficient.

If that is true, your God is one cold hearted, legalistic diety and doesn't bear much resemblance to the God that was made manifest in Christ. I look at Jesus, what he was, did and said, and I don't see that kind of mean God. Just saying....

[Char-Gar]

never had anyone give me a hard time before for telling someone they are blessed. I did not see anywhere in the post about a lost eye or someone killed by a drunk driver. Had I my response would have been different and appropriate for the situation. Sorry to have ruined your day sir no offense was intended.

You neither ruined my day, nor did anything wrong. However I must say, I don't known where the line is between God's action in human life. When does He protect and when does He not protect. I truly don't know, so I feel he treats all of us the same. Something about God sending his rain on the just and the unjust. You are a good guy.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar just something to think about but a theology that works , works by example not defense or condemnation. Hope you find what your looking for someday.

I can find nothing to fuss about in your response. I have spent all of my life trying to help folks have a dynamic faithful relationship with God through Jesus. To challenge a statement that is not well thought through is not condemnation, it is correction. There is a world of difference.

I did find what I was looking for April 21, 1970 when I knelt down beside my bed and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and promised to follow him all the days of my life. A God that blesses some and curses others is an Old Testament kind of thing, and bear no resemblance to the God made incarnate in Jesus who prayed that God would forgive those who were killing him. In Jesus we found the true meaning of "grace", i.e. God's unmerited favor given to us through faith. Thusly, I will challenge all statements that either directly or by implication degrades grace. That is in my book a theology lived out and not condemnation. Jesus condemned no one, and neither do I. Disagree, yes but condemn..no way.

[Char-Gar]

Guys, if anybody wants to continue this religious topic, please do so by PM with me as this should not be at this place on the forum and I apologize for starting it here.

[subsonic]

Well, if he pulled the hammer back twice, is it possible he either got a hangfire or a squib the first time? Seems likely that he could have tried to fire and then cocked it again or that his thumb slipped and the hammer hit the primer lightly causing a hang fire that rotated out of alignment when he cocked it again?

It's really hard to say what happened without being there, but something bad obviously did happen. Your description of destructions matches a double charge of fast powder in place of a slow powder.

Pull the boolit on the remaining live round or other ammo from that batch?

[nagantguy]

I had a thought, yes its true I had one. Anyhow you said your .44 bulldog was in your truck, I have a truck gun it never leaves unless needed except occasional range trips during a bi annual cleaning I found a missing ear plug, in the barrel about a half inch from the crown. Now I keep it in a close end holster instead of open but could there have been a obstruction in your barrel? and lastly I am truly sorry if my earlier comments sort of hi jacked your thread.

[x101airborne]

Well, if he pulled the hammer back twice, is it possible he either got a hangfire or a squib the first time? Seems likely that he could have tried to fire and then cocked it again or that his thumb slipped and the hammer hit the primer lightly causing a hang fire that rotated out of alignment when he cocked it again?

It's really hard to say what happened without being there, but something bad obviously did happen. Your description of destructions matches a double charge of fast powder in place of a slow powder.

Pull the boolit on the remaining live round or other ammo from that batch?

I understand how you may assume that, but like I said... I dont think you could get 20 grains of Blue Dot into a 44 special case, thus ruling out a double charge. Someone may correct me as I have not tried, but I dont see how.

[x101airborne]

I had a thought, yes its true I had one. Anyhow you said your .44 bulldog was in your truck, I have a truck gun it never leaves unless needed except occasional range trips during a bi annual cleaning I found a missing ear plug, in the barrel about a half inch from the crown. Now I keep it in a close end holster instead of open but could there have been a obstruction in your barrel? and lastly I am truly sorry if my earlier comments sort of hi jacked your thread.

Eh, I will fire you next week. No worries.

[300savage]

Char-gar I believe you are correct, my God loves me, he has drug my sorry butt out of the fire so many times and blessed me so far beyond my worth .
I think you have far more figured out than this simple cowboy.

101, just a question but how wide was the me plat of the bullet used in your recently deceased 44 ?

[CJR]

x101airborne,

This blow-up is very difficult to diagnose without photos of the damaged parts. To me, the symptoms you describe appear to indicate a significant overcharge/overpressure; either caused by a bore obstruction or a case full of Blue Dot or a case full of another powder like Bullseye. Most likely, the pressure was in excess of 40,000 psi. I know that when the Gov't tested the BD for the Sky Marshals program, they kept increasing the charge. When they got to 44 magnum pressures (i.e. 40,000 psi) the gun would not cock.

Recoil could have moved a loose crimped CB slightly out the front of the cylinder so that it dragged against the frame. That could've caused the difficult DA pull. For heavy loads in a 44BD if the crimp is not the tightest possible or the case mouth is split, the recoil WILL move the CB forward out of the cylinder and lock-up the gun. When trying new max loads in a 44BD, it is always good practice to check the forward CB movement of remaining rounds in the cylinder. When in doubt, shoot only 4 rounds and let one round remain in the cylinder. Load 4 more and shoot those 4. Keep repeating this until you've fired about 4 or 5 cylinders full. Then check that unfired round for forward bullet dislodgement. If the CB has dislodged/moved forward, modify your belling die so it only bells and DOES NOT re-expand the case mouth. Then use a HEAVY roll-crimp and check as described above for CB dislodgement. Likewise, a inexpensive loaded round gauge is worth its weight in gold in checking for visually missed split case mouths etc.

I have fired many max loads out of the 44BD with Blue Dot behind 250Keiths and 320 LBT LFNs and pressures/extractions have always been normal. Years ago, I went to Blue Dot when using a progressive press because a double-charge always overflowed over everything and was my wake-up call. Glad to hear no one was hurt.

Best regards,

CJR

[9.3X62AL]

Not my place to remotely diagnose what caused the catastrophic failure of your revolver, X-101. I'm just happy that you and yours are safe and well.

[x101airborne]

Oh, that is why I opened this discussion. I am patiently awaiting Friday when I can photograph the remains.

[x101airborne]

And an overcharge is exactly why I always try to use a powder that has a large volume to it. In a 9mm case, bullseye takes up a lot of room. In the 44 special it is barely noticeable.
I am just glad to hear someone finally agree that a double charge would be unlikely without it overflowing the case.

[subsonic]

Pull any remaining ammo and do a post-mortem. That Blue-Dot might have been Red dot?

[9.3X62AL]

Blue Dot has had some quirky misbehaviors in the past. Current Alliant data recommends against its use in any 41 Magnum application, for example. That seems like a red flag to me, since the magnum revolvers are all so similar in pressure gradient and behavior. We need to remember that Blue Dot was originated as a fuel for heavy shotload 12 gauge shotshells, whose pressure levels never exceed 15K PSI. Start running that same fuel at twice that pressure level or more, and who knows what might happen? Early on, the late Bob Milek noted in 357 Magnum loadings fired at -35* F temps that pressure excursions took place intermittently. My point here is that X-101 may have experienced a powder-related pressure anomaly, and Blue Dot has produced these previously. I fully agree that a double-charge of BD would have over-flowed a 44 Special case, so while an over-charge could be remotely possible--a full-on double-charge would likely not be. I'm more inclined toward a powder-derived pressure anomaly, given Blue Dot's checkered past.

[zxcvbob]

He had to attempt to cock it twice.
Do you think maybe the first load was a squib that cleared the forcing cone, and the 2nd was a barrel obstruction?

[x101airborne]

No, he never pulled the trigger after the first attempt to cock the weapon. He pulled the hammer and it resisted. I noticed it, but figured he had a catch in his thumb or hand and everything seemed ok when he pulled it the second time. I really make it a point to not notice every time my dad's body does something odd. That is just getting old and I will be there one day. He even called me again today to say he was sorry for blowing up my revolver. And again, I told him I dont care about the weapon. Just glad he has all his fingers, eyes, jaw, jugulars, etc. I liked the little revolvers, but they are just tools.

[W.R.Buchanan]

101: where as a double charge would not fit,,, maybe you had a powder bridge in the measure resulting in one load light and the next heavy, and as a result got 2 or 3 extra grains of powder.

That's all it would take and if 10.2 is max, then you would have been 20-30% above that and I think you would agree this is well into the danger zone.

It is un-nerving to try to figure this type of thng out when nobody really knows for sure.

All that can really be gleened from this "Free Lesson" is to pay attention a little more. And thank whom ever is looking out for you.

Randy

[PS Paul]

Yikes! Nobody mentioned it yet, but I'm actually pretty impressed your Dad just handed it back over with the "never again" comment and didn't notice anything else amiss besides sharp recoil? Must be some kind of "super-tough bird", eh? ha ha!

Thankfully enough he is alright, obviously. These types of stories always give me pause when I hear them and make me REALLY look closely at what I'm doing. I try NEVER take for granted that my equipment is always doing as designed, and thankfully your story will likely keep at least some of us more "focused" when loading. That is if something good is to come of this story besides just you and your Father coming out alright.

So, thanks for sharing your story and know it'll help keep me "on my toes" when loading.
Paul

[x101airborne]

Thanks Paul.
And your response just makes me remember the one time I saw someone tipsy loading at their bench with an open beer. They were done enough that they knocked it over and said "that aint the first time"... I left shortly after talking them into watching some hunting videos. I hope that guy wised up, but I dont know. I never talked to him again. I load straight and true and this still happened. Wonder what it would have been like had I been "tipsy".

[9.3X62AL]

101: where as a double charge would not fit,,, maybe you had a powder bridge in the measure resulting in one load light and the next heavy, and as a result got 2 or 3 extra grains of powder.

I hear ya, Randy. I've not had the Alliant shotshell flake powders bridge or hang up in either my RCBS Duo-Measure or in my several MEC charge bushings. They behave themselves pretty well in that regard for me, and I use a lot of them in some quantity for this reason--Red Dot, Unique, Herco, and Blue Dot. I just never say "never", nor never say "always" in this venue of inquiry.

X-101 might not get a satisfactory answer to his query, but as mentioned above his honest disclosure of the occurrence serves to caution us all and is a commendable contribution to the body of knowledge in this hobby field.

[MT Gianni]

In a worst case it might have to be chalked up to metal fatigue over time from what your gun considered to be max loading. I am also glad everyone walked away. My 327 Federal is a target patriot and on the same frame as the bulldog. That cartridge was rated 42,000 psi or cup I don't recall the particulars. In any case, it is a gun capable of higher pressures. My bulldog was limited in it's loading by the recoil but saw a few 7.0 gr unique loads and the 429421. It may turn out to be the metal was tired but that does not explain the hiccup in cocking at all.

[hicard]

My reference material shows your load to be in the area of 16383 psi which is over the 15500 psi max allowed for the 44 special. I'd say it was too hot for the light 44 charter arms bulldog.

[sparkz]

Glad your Dad and you are ok,
Il be watching this one for the outcome forsure
Need Photos,

Patrick

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I have blown up a gun intentionally under controlled circumstances and have an opinion that some guns blow due to fatigue from previously fired overpressure charges. Could your difficulty cocking have been from the cylinder stop latch bulged from a previous hot load?

[Mooseman]

I have had a "clump" of a "Dot" powder bridge in a powder measure before while loading shotgun shells so that a light charge followed by an overcharge can occur if you dont catch it. Even with a good measure like an RCBS or Lyman it can happen. A couple grains over and Kaboom.
With the difficulty in cocking , I wonder if maybe Boolits were loose in the case and moved long or short...just a random thought. I dont see a primer firing if it was more than 1/16 off to the side and out of alignment and it would take more than that to stop a bullet from entering the forcing cone normally. This is just a guess from my experience in gunsmithing and loading for many years.
Rich

[429421Cowboy]

I have been watching this thread and just had a thought to add to the mix.
Could perhaps you have had a high primer on one of the rounds that caused it to go off at the same time as the one lined up under the hammer and strike the frame? A primer dragging on the recoil shield would have made cocking difficult as well.
Just one of those late night thoughts that may or may not have been anywhere close to the truth!

[slohunter]

I've read many different articles where Bluedot has put many a good Pistols in an early grave. Just saying.

[Loudenboomer]

Glad No one was hurt 101st.
God is God we are not. He has chosen to explain to us what he decides to in the Bible. It's not for us to decide what's fair.
Charg-Gar take a deep breath. Let it out slow. count backwards from 100 then turn off your computer ;)