Newbie to reloading, .303 British

[reloader762]

Hello all, I've been reading this board for a while and it has answered a bunch of questions. I recently assembled my first batch of .303 British; followed the recipe using 37.2 grains IMR 3031 with a 123 grain .310 diameter bullet. Everything functioned perfectly using a 1943 Long Branch Lee Enfield, 20 of 20 shots on paper first time out. OK, I'm hooked and I want to build my own ammo more!

I have two questions for the experts:

1) The shoulder on a few of my cases were bulged. Not bad enough that they wouldn't chamber, I could just feel it with my fingers. After firing, the bulge is gone. What did I do wrong? Seat the bullet too deep? Confused as it didn't happen for all.

2) After reading a bunch of posts, I'm confused on jacketed bullets vs. cast bullets regarding the diameter and need for a gas check. The jacketed bullets I have are .310 and I measured them as .310, the bore of the rifle is tight and these bullets do not fit into the muzzle (yes, I need to find a slugging method/kit, I know). Do I need to find .311 cast bullets? With a gas check? Can I follow the recipes for the same weight bullet?

Thanks in advance.

[longbow]

Not sure I qualify as an expert but here is what I think.

Most Lee Enfields have large bores well over 0.310". I have four Lee Enfields and all are around 0.314" groove diameter. not saying yours is that sloppy but I would be surprised if it is tight enough for a 0.310" cast boolit to shoot well and not lead. You should slug the bore and size cast boolits to at least 0.001" over groove diameter or better yet, size so they just fit the throat. I am sizing to 0.315" with good results.

As for your question:

1) Are you full length sizing? Did you anneal? Not sure what the bulge is about unless you distorted the neck/shoulder seating the boolit. I neck size only as Lee Enfield chambers tend to be sloppy and full length sizing is hard on brass. Also, I use a Lee collet sizer and size the necks to suit the oversize cast boolits I have to shoot because sizing down to about 0.310" as my RCBS dies do then seating a 0.315" diameter boolits is hard on brass and the boolit ~ seating actually sizes he boolit down some.

2) Diameter for cast boolits should suit the throat by just fitting or be at least 0.001" over groove diameter. Jacketed bullets will likely be 0.311" diameter and should shoot reasonably well even though they are undersize. Gas checks on cast boolits are pretty much a necessity if you want anything more than very moderate velocities. You might get 1800 to 2000 FPS without leading using a gas check. Higher velocities are possible adn some here have achieved them but it is work to do it. I have gotten very poor results using gas check boolits without gas checks and generally using plain base boolits with anything more than very light loads unless I use a filler which is a whole different topic.

So, before buying a mould, you should know the bore diameter, groove diameter and throat diameter. Boolits like the Lyman 314299 (designed for .303) are nose bore riders so the driving bands should be sized to suit the throat and the nose should be correct size to ride on the lands (bore diameter).

If I read your post correctly I am assuming you are asking if the same loads as for jacketed bullets can be used for cast boolits and the answer is generally no. Cast boolits cannot normally be driven to jacketed velocities in small bore bottleneck cases like .303. Close maybe for the heavy boolits but certainly not for lightweights like the 123 gr.

You should get a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and start with their suggested cast boolit loads. It isn't the be all end all but is a good reference and good starting point.

I hope that helps and I am sure you will get other advice as well.

Longbow

[dromia]

Welcome to Cast Boolits!

A good search of Cast Boolits will answer most of your questions.

Reading the stickies is a good place to start. I would recommend this one from the top of this forum for starters: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article

[pipehand]

That bulge in the shoulder isn't from seating, per se, but the crimp in the seater die. When you seat and crimp in one step, and the brass may be a tad long, things take the path of least resistance.

Like Longbow, I have a collet die setup for my Brit. I need to look at getting a 314299 copy from NOE.

[Jack Stanley]

I've learned with the British cases that generally the least sizing of the case is the best . As long as the loaded round holds the new bullet securely so it will feed from the magazine and as long as it will chamber without binding you're good .

Bullets ? well ....... there is a lot of difference between jacketed and cast and what works in my rifle may not in yours . Something you can bet on is bullet jackets are about four times harder than most very hard casting alloys . With that in mind since they don't distort as much as cast the fit can be a little more sloppy . In my experience British chambers will generally accept very large diameter cast bullets . An example of that is my Lithgow made number one , groove diameter is .314" the chamber will accept ammo using .317"-.318" diameter bullets depending on the cases I use . The Savage made number four I have has a .316" groove and will take even larger diameter bullets . As long as the bullets fit the rifle properly I can get velocities to about the old MkI load range with good accuracy .

As for the bulge , might it be a case of to much resizing lube on the case ? Normally to much shows up as dents in the shoulder , bulges on the neck might be made as the bullets is being seated .

Some of these guys have used the British round longer than I've been alive , I'm sure they can help you find your way .

Jack

[atr]

the bulge sounds like something happened during the seating....
if the case was to long then your crimping engaged the boolit early and pushed the brass to form the bulge. You should try to trim your cases to equal lengths to avoid this problem. OR as a cheap substitute to trimming, you should measure case lengths and separate according to length, they adjust your seating die to accomodate the various lengths as you seat the boolit.

[JeffinNZ]

Three words for you:

Lee
Collet
Die.

[reloader762]

Thanks for the answers, and for not applying a "newbie smackdown". :)

A collet style die came up a few times in the replies. I don't quite understand the difference right now; Lee's site says "uses a collet to squeeze a mandrel", not sure what that means. I have a Lee RGB two die set. So I'll look into purchasing the collet style soon. Maybe I didn't have the seating depth set correctly?

I'll put a finer point on my question about the cast load data I found on this board, as I had read the link suggested prior to posting. What confused me there is the suggestion to use 7 grains of Bullseye. I get that it is a totally different powder than the IMR 3031 I am using, but when the recipe for the powder I have is using 37.2 grains and this says 7, I see a huge difference and granted without any experience so I'm not challenging that data. Heck, if I can get away with using 7 grains per shot than 37.2, that ought to be a bunch cheaper so it has my interest; I just don't understand it at this point. 7 grains of Bullseye make 37.2 look wasteful for plinking, so I am assuming there is information that I don't know about at this point to make the full connection.

I measured all my brass, and while there was some difference, all were a bit under the case length specified in the reloading book I am using. I assume that means start over with the bullet seating die for the next batch.

Thanks again for more explaining regarding the cast bullet size and velocity, that makes sense.

[dabsond]

Were these cases new unfired brass or once fired. If they were fired brass do you know how many times they were used. Of all the rounds I load for I find the 303 the trickiest. I have bought once fired brass before. I always do a full resize when I get new or once fired brass. After the full resize I then check for case separation using the paper clip method. I do notice the difference in when using different brands of brass. Some brass, mostly winchester I have found, is thinner than stuff from PPU and the same force used to properly seat a bullet in one brand of brass can cause the other brand to buldge just a little. Sort your brass and and be mindful of the generous chambers of most enfields. Once the brass has been fired in your rifle it is a matter of neck resizing, Lee Collet Die, works great for this.

[reloader762]

Were these cases new unfired brass or once fired. If they were fired brass do you know how many times they were used.

Once fired, I know because I used brass that I had purchased as loaded ammo. It was PPU brand, packaged as Hotshot.

[tomme boy]

US made brass is undersized to begin with. Stay with the PPU if you can. When you checked the length of the brass, was the measurement you used the min. or max. length? You want ALL the brass the same length.

[Maven]

Also look for Stephen Redgwell's book on reloading the .303: http://www.amazon.com/Reloading-the-303-British-ebook/dp/B004LROKO0

[reloader762]

@tomme boy: That's an awesome opinion about the PPU brass, as I just ordered 100 more. I'll recheck my brass and measure it again and trim is necessary.

@Maven: Looks like a great reference to have, thanks.

[longbow]

Without looking it up I am not sure of the pressure of your load but, my first experience using small bore cast boolits (.30 cal) was for my Mauser in .308 Win. I used a Lyman book load of 3031 under a Lyman 31141 without gas check and they were keyholing at 25 yards! I Was shooting as cast at 0.311" but had not slugged the bore. It turns out fit was fine but without a gas check these guys weren't going to take that load.

There was wet heavy snow on the ground and I managed to dig out a few boolits. There were basically no driving bands left! The boolits were smooth and shiny with little if any signs of rifling. Badly gas cut.

I got some gas checks and that improved things some but still not good. So, I tried a more moderate load of IMR4227 and got quite decent accuracy right off.

Since then I have tended to stick to moderate loads of mid range burn rate powders for cast boolits in bore sizes under .44 cal. Not sure about others but I never had any trouble running to full "J" bullet loads in .44 mag (rifle) and .45-70 but my .308 and .303's are much more trouble to get to shoot well with cast boolits.

I can't comment on the Bullseye load recommended but the big difference between Bullseye and 3031 is that Bullseye is one of the fastest burn rate powders available and 3031 is a fairly slow powder. You will not get anywhere near the same velocity from 7 grains of Bullseye as you do from 37.2 grains of 3031 but because Bullseye is so fast, you cannot load heavy charges.

I am loading from 18 to 22 grs. of IMR4227 in my .303's and getting good results with that.

As for the Lee Collet dies, they are great! Mind you, the mandrel they provide is still based on SAAMi sizing so is tight for sloppy military chambers. I made my own to leave inside neck diameter at 0.313" for my 0.315" sized boolits. That is something you will have to sort out by slugging. Also, apparently you do not have to use the mandrel and can simply adjust the collet to give you the size you want.

The big benefit of the collet die is that you do not overwork the brass by full length sizing. This will result in your brass lasting much longer.

If you do not have a Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook you should get one. They have a pretty good selection of proven loads for use with cast boolits and usually list a variety of powders from light loads of very fast powders to some loads close to "J" bullet loads using slow powders.

Unfortunately, my old Lyman manual has very limited listings for .303 British. you can use .30-40 Krag data for .303 as the Krag runs at lower pressure than .303 British and there is a good selection of loads there.

There are other sources for loads as well and some of the old references here:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/default.html

are pretty good as well.

My suggestion to get you started down the right road:

- slug the barrel and throat
- buy a mould of proven design; also note that if your bore is typical sloppy and oversize then many commercial moulds ~ Lyman, Lee and others ~ tend to cast undersize; NOE, Accurate and some other custom/semi custom mould makers produce moulds with large enough cavities to suit oversize bores
- size as close to throat diameter as you can chamber
- use proven boolit designs like Lyman 314299 sized to suit your gun
- use moderate charges of medium burn rate powders like IMR4227, IMR4198, 2400, etc. and maybe Unique (10 to 12 grs. of Unique is a good load under the 314299... not high velocity but pleasant to shoot and accurate)
- neck size only after fireforming brass
- anneal the necks
- size the necks to suit the boolit diameter which suits you gun ~ too tight a neck will actually shear off lead or size lead boolits down)
- and I should mention, get a case mouth flaring die like Lyman M die or Lee Universal case neck flaring die or you will run into trouble seating lead boolits

Probably more words than you want to read and I am out of breath!

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[reloader762]

Wonderful response, thank you. I have a list of more tools to acquire and a couple of books. The old manual are fun and it's interesting to read what recommendations have changed and what is still exactly the same.

Everybody seems to agree to anneal the necks and only neck size the bullets. That's good to learn as there is no mention of this process in the book I have.

In reading these responses, it has really helped to focus what I'm trying to do. You've given me lots to work on and learn, thanks again.

[dromia]

Neck size the cases, not the boolits.

[truckjohn]

A very brief explanation to some questions you asked but may not have gotten answers you understood....

Most folks want some "Fun shooting" loads that they can run through without taking the beating, noise, or the cost of Full House Jacketed loads....

For short range plinking and fun shooting - typically, Economy is the primary objective.... The cheapest possible load is a plain based, lubed lead bullet over a small charge of pistol or shotgun powder... This is where the Bullseye, Red Dot, and Unique loads shine.... They are generally very accurate - and are a JOY to shoot.... AND... If you are casting bullets yourself - the cost is very low.... basically 5 to 10 cents per round - and the largest contribution is the Primer.... You can shoot all day long for the same cost as 1 box of commercial ammo....

There are many "Tried and true" cast bullet recipes out there.. For some of the best places to start - Check out Ed Harris's Cast bullets for Military Rifles sticky at the top...

On the powder... Yes - a small charge of pistol or shotgun powder is certainly more economical than a larger charge of Rifle powder.... The major difference is that the Rules for Cast are different than for Jacketed.... You can read all about that in the stickies...

Thanks

[blixen]

As a nube+1* to nube, things I learned about handloading for my SMLE's:
1. both are awesomely accurate with jacketed bullets.
2. My bores are over-sized.
3. I shoot only "plinking loads" for fun and case life: something like 16grains of Alliant 2400.
4. I neck size only. Haven't been able to acquire a Lee Collet die yet--but I adjust the die to only size the neck (smoke the neck or mark it with a Sharpie--then adjust the die until the mark is barely wiped out).
5. I use the Lee .311 185g mold, sized to .314 and get excellent accuracy out of my 1917 No. 1. Same for my former No.3 which I have since traded away.

*To give you an idea of how marginal I am in CBing, I melt my lead on a Coleman stove and pour with that cheesy Lee $4 steel dipper. I use the same boolit --sized to .311--successfully in my 30-30s. In other words, YOU can do it.

[reloader762]

@truckjohn: You got it, plinking economy is becoming my goal as this information is given to me. Whoo-hoo, more shooting, less cost. Win-win! Now I get the usage of pistol and shotgun powders, thanks all.


YOU can do it.

That's what I'm learning! :grin: