The .223 and the 225646 DC bullet for hunting....

[Rattus58]

I was on my way to giving son #2 my mini-14 since I gave son#1 my AR... but since I gave #2 a colt 45ACP I was just storing this ranch rifle till a cop buddy of mine... sayed... hey tommy... I gotta go huntin man.... lets go...

The area he was thinking of I've never been to so I was well up to the idea and asked him which of my guns I should bring... being a muzzleloader hunter exclusively since the late 80's. He asked about my .223... I sayed.. "Really?" He sayed.. Oh yeah... I've got some bullets that drop em where they stand for the .223.. so... never having hunted with the thing I traded him a couple of boxes of FMJ for some hunting bullets.... what surprised me was just how pleasant a gun it is to haul around and soo... figured... why not ...

That led to last night me purchasing a mold for the .223 225646 DC from Lyman, some Gas Checks which I use on my muzzleloader bullets too, so that process is understood... and I got some sizers and punches and shell holders.... So now my question is this... this bullet looks like some of the planes I've been in... sorta narrow waisted.... and I'm wondering it that is where the roll crimp might be located... anyways... does anyone here hunt with this bullet? My Buddy swears by the .223... and I'm not convinced anything less than a .451 or .41 with 400 grains or more is a hunting bullet.. :grin: But he swears by the .223... head shots, neck shots and right through the boiler room.... anyone else enthused about .223 and this bullet in particular at more moderate speeds?

[MT Gianni]

I should work great on jackrabbits and squirrels.

[Rattus58]

I should work great on jackrabbits and squirrels.Hehe... thank you ... neither of which we have here ... :grin:

[338RemUltraMag]

I wouldnt shoot cast at deer in a 223 unless I had the 75 gr NATO Mihec boolit pushed at 2600 fps, BUT I do shoot deer with my AR and jaxeted bullets, I really like the 65 gr Sierra Gameking and ALL of the Barnes solid copper bullets work extremely well. The Hornady 75 gr Amax will work as well even though they say to not use it for hunting.

[Rattus58]

I wouldnt shoot cast at deer in a 223 unless I had the 75 gr NATO Mihec boolit pushed at 2600 fps, BUT I do shoot deer with my AR and jaxeted bullets, I really like the 65 gr Sierra Gameking and ALL of the Barnes solid copper bullets work extremely well. The Hornady 75 gr Amax will work as well even though they say to not use it for hunting.I've a box of something like that actually that my buddy gave me... I appreciate your sentiment... I'm not sure that I just yet share your concerns for cast bullets for hunting. I've unfortunately only been able to find this one mold for the .223. The jacketed bullets will be pushing 1300 pounds of KE where a cast bullet is pushing 600 at 2200 fps. That should be plenty for deer. One issue here in Hawaii is that they have a 1200 foot pounds minimum .... yet allow 500 for handgun... the consistency is just startling... :grin:

[Nrut]

I've a box of something like that actually that my buddy gave me... I appreciate your sentiment... I'm not sure that I just yet share your concerns for cast bullets for hunting. I've unfortunately only been able to find this one mold for the .223. The jacketed bullets will be pushing 1300 pounds of KE where a cast bullet is pushing 600 at 2200 fps. That should be plenty for deer. One issue here in Hawaii is that they have a 1200 foot pounds minimum .... yet allow 500 for handgun... the consistency is just startling... :grin:
Your question is moot unless you plan on breaking the law..

[cstrickland]

I've a box of something like that actually that my buddy gave me... I appreciate your sentiment... I'm not sure that I just yet share your concerns for cast bullets for hunting. I've unfortunately only been able to find this one mold for the .223. The jacketed bullets will be pushing 1300 pounds of KE where a cast bullet is pushing 600 at 2200 fps. That should be plenty for deer. One issue here in Hawaii is that they have a 1200 foot pounds minimum .... yet allow 500 for handgun... the consistency is just startling... :grin:

not trying to insult you ( as many get insulted easily) but it is not all about the KE, as a 22LR can and has killed many deer, and it has way less than 600 lbs. I feel it is more about shot placment and bullet performance. as stated in the other thread I used nosler partitions and have had great results. I am not sure I would trust any cast bullet in this weight range for anything but samll varmint at this point due to possible inconsistancies in casting . My suggestion would be to cast some up and work up your load, and make detailed notes and come up with several tests ( even just wet pack ) , to get feedback as to what this cast boolit can do consistanly, from pour to pour and batch to batch . you can then start looking at the terminal performance, and get a good evaluation on how your bullet will perform in several different situations. The gamekings and partitions work so well becuse this has already been done by the big manufactures.

just my opinion and keep in mind I have never shot or cast any of my own bullets yet.

[Rattus58]

Your question is moot unless you plan on breaking the law..Wouldn't think of it... but .223 is all but illegal anyway and no one here seems to care... so why have the rule... Some loads that produce less than 3150 fps don't cut it going in... :grin:

[Rattus58]

not trying to insult you ( as many get insulted easily) but it is not all about the KE, as a 22LR can and has killed many deer, and it has way less than 600 lbs. I feel it is more about shot placment and bullet performance. as stated in the other thread I used nosler partitions and have had great results. I am not sure I would trust any cast bullet in this weight range for anything but samll varmint at this point due to possible inconsistancies in casting . My suggestion would be to cast some up and work up your load, and make detailed notes and come up with several tests ( even just wet pack ) , to get feedback as to what this cast boolit can do consistanly, from pour to pour and batch to batch . you can then start looking at the terminal performance, and get a good evaluation on how your bullet will perform in several different situations. The gamekings and partitions work so well becuse this has already been done by the big manufactures.

just my opinion and keep in mind I have never shot or cast any of my own bullets yet.

Not insulted, I brought that up actually earlier. I cast a lot of bullets from .390 roundballs to .578 miniballs and from .410 to .580 on conicals. My casting consistency is fair... but makes good solid bullets that stick together well. I've abandoned the idea of casting bullets for the .223....

[JIMinPHX]

.223 cast works well on coyotes, especially if you hp them.

I don't bring the .223 hunting unless I plan to go after something that weighs 100 pounds or less. I'm not saying that you can't take anything larger with the .223, I'm just saying that is where I personally draw the line.

[Rattus58]

.223 cast works well on coyotes, especially if you hp them.

I don't bring the .223 hunting unless I plan to go after something that weighs 100 pounds or less. I'm not saying that you can't take anything larger with the .223, I'm just saying that is where I personally draw the line.

Goats and sheep are rarely near a 100 pounds... :grin: Goats are hardy though... sheep of the feral variety I've never had one run when shot with my .451.... and mouflon... rarely 100 pounds but they too can take some lead.

[Hickory]

Fill me in on this statement, as I am confused by it's meaning.

some Gas Checks which I use on my muzzleloader bullets too, so that process is understood... and I got some sizers and punches and shell holders...

[Nrut]

Originally Posted by Nrut
Your question is moot unless you plan on breaking the law..


Wouldn't think of it... but .223 is all but illegal anyway and no one here seems to care... so why have the rule... Some loads that produce less than 3150 fps don't cut it going in... :grin:

From this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199130-Does-anyone-hunt-with-the-Lyman-225646-GC-bullet-in-an-AR-or-a-Mini-14

05-11-2013, 05:54 AM #1
Rattus58
Boolit Master
Join Date
Jan 2007
Posts
632
Does anyone hunt with the Lyman 225646 GC bullet in an AR or a Mini-14?
Trying to find moulds for my .223 that I can hunt with are difficult because its not specifically mentioned as to what cast bullets are good for hunting in .223. Anyway, I bought a mold for the 225646 Lyman and hope to make some decent hunting bullets out of them since it has a relatively round nose to it. Not knowing how the gas checks will work with a cast bullet at really high velocity, I'm thinking I'd be limited to 2000 or thereabouts in a mini-14. For hunting I don't see that as a problem for me since this rifle is a sheep rifle, not a varmint even though its got the accu-strut attached to it.

Anyone with any thoughts on this?

Aloha..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't seem to keep your stories straight..

[Rattus58]

Originally Posted by Nrut
Your question is moot unless you plan on breaking the law..



From this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199130-Does-anyone-hunt-with-the-Lyman-225646-GC-bullet-in-an-AR-or-a-Mini-14

05-11-2013, 05:54 AM #1
Rattus58
Boolit Master
Join Date
Jan 2007
Posts
632
Does anyone hunt with the Lyman 225646 GC bullet in an AR or a Mini-14?
Trying to find moulds for my .223 that I can hunt with are difficult because its not specifically mentioned as to what cast bullets are good for hunting in .223. Anyway, I bought a mold for the 225646 Lyman and hope to make some decent hunting bullets out of them since it has a relatively round nose to it. Not knowing how the gas checks will work with a cast bullet at really high velocity, I'm thinking I'd be limited to 2000 or thereabouts in a mini-14. For hunting I don't see that as a problem for me since this rifle is a sheep rifle, not a varmint even though its got the accu-strut attached to it.

Anyone with any thoughts on this?

Aloha..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't seem to keep your stories straight..Oh REALLY... What story would that be Dr... What was your name again?

[300savage]

I am thinking that you are not far off 22mag performance with that load. It can be done for sure but it is really limited in shot selections as it seems you have already figured. I like your big bullet idea much more. What island you on? I spent a lot of time in Hawaii and have many friends there

[Rattus58]

I am thinking that you are not far off 22mag performance with that load. It can be done for sure but it is really limited in shot selections as it seems you have already figured. I like your big bullet idea much more. What island you on? I spent a lot of time in Hawaii and have many friends thereI live on the Big Island... :grin:

[300savage]

Lots a friends on the big island. Which part if I may ask, probably know some of the same folks.

[Rattus58]

Lots a friends on the big island. Which part if I may ask, probably know some of the same folks.Puna... east side, but I know folks all over the island.. :grin: And if its hunting related, we've been involved since the late 80's in Issues so I run across a lot of folks who are interested in hunting's survival as well.

Aloha,

Tom

[Rattus58]

hawaiihuntingassociation@hawaiiantel.net

[Rattus58]

We are an advocacy group.

[farmbif]

I took a 275 pound 8 point that was devistating my apple trees with a 55 gr out of a 22-250 w 1 shot that took out both lungs, and i know that the man, now deceased, who wrote life in the eveglades book killed the first ever game warden that was sent to the everglades with 1 shot from a 22 mag lever gun. 22 caliber is deadly imo

[Rattus58]

I took a 275 pound 8 point that was devistating my apple trees with a 55 gr out of a 22-250 w 1 shot that took out both lungs, and i know that the man, now deceased, who wrote life in the eveglades book killed the first ever game warden that was sent to the everglades with 1 shot from a 22 mag lever gun. 22 caliber is deadly imoNo doubt... :grin: yer 22-250 though, is a tad but faster than the other persuasions you mention... by about a factor of 3 or 4... :grin: But yer point is taken... I have a very good friend who harvests deer for commercial consumption with a .22LR.

[nanuk]

many comments here are in conflict with many on THIS (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?196726-Hunting-deer-size-game-with-243-boolits) thread

[Jupiter7]

I'd not risk .223 cast on deer. FPE aside, I've dressed too many deer with 22 caliber bullets lodged in ribs, shoulders, spine, etc... Plenty were the right shot with the wrong bullet. IF I was hunting deer with .223 it be with either 75gr barnes or maybe the 90gr Sierra and as close to max as I could get without loosing decent accuracy. Read the .243 cast deer hunting thread, folks are iffy about that. The best thing .223 has going for it is velocity. Personally I like .30's, cast or jacketed and handguns 45, is all I really consider.

[Rattus58]

many comments here are in conflict with many on THIS (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?196726-Hunting-deer-size-game-with-243-boolits) thread

I am ONLY responsible for what I Say!
I am NOT responsible for what You THINK I Said!

[Rattus58]

I'd not risk .223 cast on deer. FPE aside, I've dressed too many deer with 22 caliber bullets lodged in ribs, shoulders, spine, etc... Plenty were the right shot with the wrong bullet. IF I was hunting deer with .223 it be with either 75gr barnes or maybe the 90gr Sierra and as close to max as I could get without loosing decent accuracy. Read the .243 cast deer hunting thread, folks are iffy about that. The best thing .223 has going for it is velocity. Personally I like .30's, cast or jacketed and handguns 45, is all I really consider.

I've scrubbed this whole idea of hunting with cast bullets in the .223 due to a number of factors, not the least of which was when I was able to calculate what my momentum values might be, they were as follows
grains 55
speed 2200
KE 590.964591
Momentum 0.537240537
momentum_1 5.372405372

[300savage]

Actually it has been my experience that a223 is no where near the killer that the 222 is. I contribute that to the lower velocity of the triple duece which allows the bullet to hold together for far more penetration. I must say that my experience in either caliber has only been with conventional jacketed bullets.
I have taken two grown red stags with the 222 in Oz using factory Remington ammo with great effect. Two stags, two shots ,both tight behind the shoulder through the lungs. Both bullets were recovered under the hide on the off side looking like little nosler adverts.
Hit ribs in and out on both to no matter,neither stag went 20 yards. I was freekn impressed to say the least. Would I have used it if I had a good 06 on hand? Well hell no,, but it was what the bloke handed me so we made it work.

[Rattus58]

The gentleman that I went hunting with has taken a number of goats and a couple of sheep with the .223 and gave me some bullets that he used in his harvests... Jim Burnworth of Western Extreme has taken the 22-250 himself and came to Lanai on a sheep hunt and nailed a fairly nice mouflon with his 22-250 to which he seems to gravitating towards on the basis of the "challenge".

If I was into "reloading" I might actually try to load this for hunting except I'm a muzzleloader hunter and like my .410's, my .451's and love my 58's.. I'm just getting into flintlock .54s of which I now have two, but big bullets have no equal.. :grin:... in my humble opinion.... :grin:

[300savage]

I am sure that you are familiar with Loni and Bill on the kapapala are you not? And the Galimba's. Kenny Miranda or Freddy Rice. I know that a lot of hunters on the BI have issues with ranchers, how are the current working conditions? I have hunted a lot there with gun and bow. Once I even sunk into the middle of a herd of wild pipi and punched a cows ticker with my recurve. Probably as exciting an event as I have ever had hunting and I have been in the thick of it many times.

[Piedmont]

Actually it has been my experience that a223 is no where near the killer that the 222 is. I contribute that to the lower velocity of the triple duece which allows the bullet to hold together for far more penetration. I must say that my experience in either caliber has only been with conventional jacketed bullets.
I have taken two grown red stags with the 222 in Oz using factory Remington ammo with great effect. Two stags, two shots ,both tight behind the shoulder through the lungs. Both bullets were recovered under the hide on the off side looking like little nosler adverts.
Hit ribs in and out on both to no matter,neither stag went 20 yards. I was freekn impressed to say the least. Would I have used it if I had a good 06 on hand? Well hell no,, but it was what the bloke handed me so we made it work.

I guess all you have to do when you hunt with a .223 then is shoot the game twenty yards farther out than you do with your .222. Then it will have the same mojo.

[300savage]

Twenty yards.. hmm I will just have to take your word for it then, seems like a lot of fps diff to bleed off that fast but if you say so. What I do know is that I shot one stag at about 30 steps, and one at about 150 and got the same perf on both. Have not had the same experience with bullets hanging together like that in the 223. Your milage may vary obviously

[cstrickland]

Twenty yards.. hmm I will just have to take your word for it then, seems like a lot of fps diff to bleed off that fast but if you say so. What I do know is that I shot one stag at about 30 steps, and one at about 150 and got the same perf on both. Have not had the same experience with bullets hanging together like that in the 223. Your milage may vary obviously

300S in regards to the 222 versus 223 commint it seems to me you were using nosler partitions is that correct ?? the reason I ask is that I have used the partition on more then a few occasions with my 223, but never shot a 222. I do not recall every having one fail, but I sure as hell have not seen everything in this world and do not in anyway claim to be an expert.

now based on my little knowledge I would think that if someone got the correct lead mixture, that a 224 size bullet would behave very similar to larger cast bullet, and mushroom out without losing much weight. you have no jacket controlling expansion , but that can be both good and bad.

I know you were not the one asking but I kinda just kept babbling on sorry.

[300savage]

No worries, actually they were just common cup and core bullets which is what really impressed me. I know that there is only approx 200 or so fps diff between the two calibers but I have yet to recover a bullet in that shape from any critter shot with a 223. Just fragments of jacket and core. I have to admit tho I have never shot partitions or Barnes or any other super premium bullets in these varmint calibers. And all of the larger game I have shot with a 22 cal have been in situations like mentioned. I have never went after anything but hogs deliberately with a varmint cal, except vermin of course.

[Rattus58]

I am sure that you are familiar with Loni and Bill on the kapapala are you not? And the Galimba's. Kenny Miranda or Freddy Rice. I know that a lot of hunters on the BI have issues with ranchers, how are the current working conditions? I have hunted a lot there with gun and bow. Once I even sunk into the middle of a herd of wild pipi and punched a cows ticker with my recurve. Probably as exciting an event as I have ever had hunting and I have been in the thick of it many times.That would be LANI.. on Kapapala... :grin: and I don't know her personally, I knew her Dad. It was on Kapapala where we were hunting in fact for Mouflon that started this thread... :)

Freddie Nobriga was a great friend to hunters and our Club, Pig Hunters Of Hawaii... the man is almost legend... hehe... As for Galimba, the only family of Galimba's I'm aware of personally is also in Kau .. Kuahiwi Ranch in Naalehu.... and Miranda... good grief... there are so many Miranda involved in hunting, farming, retail..... almost need a family crest... :grin:

We are a hunting advocacy organization. Hunters and Ranchers have a lot of issues... and ALL OF THEM ARE HUNTER DRIVEN.... or at least driven by poor behavior of the public... like poaching... cutting fences and leaving gates open.

Aloha.. :cool::grin:

[300savage]

I knew Gordon well , good man. Lani and BilI are good folks also. I have hunted the kapapala many times shot a great mouflon there. And yes those are the galimbas I am talking about.

[Rattus58]

I knew Gordon well , good man. Lani and BilI are good folks also. I have hunted the kapapala many times shot a great mouflon there. And yes those are the galimbas I am talking about.I've hunted birds lower down on the ranch before and didn't get a chance to actually head up towards Ainapo till a couple of weeks ago... lovely lovely country up there.. looking forward to more hunts there now... being that the only place pretty much of state land that actually has game on it...

Kau is a special place on the Island for its lifestyle... Hope it is slow to change...

Aloha.. :cool:

[35remington]

Rattus, if momentum was a relevant factor in selection of a round for big game hunting all your problems would be solved by throwing a baseball at your target. Said baseball has more momentum than some bullets.

Yet I haven't heard of much game killed by Catfish Hunter.

Best stick with KE as more relevant.

[300savage]

Ten million dead buffalo would disagree..

The best example I ever heard was that a 22-250 shooting a 55 grain bullet has more KE than a 45-70 but which would you rather have in your hands facing down a charging grizz???

[leftiye]

KE will explain everything except your results. Whatever drives a bullet THROUGH an animal divided by whatever your bullet does to impede this penetration (expansion), multiplied by how big the hole it makes is will about do it though.

KE is best experienced as bloodshot meat.

[300savage]

So,, velocity÷meplat×wound diameter/length= lethality ?

[grampa243]

So,, velocity÷meplat×wound diameter/length= lethality ?

may be this would put it better: depth of penetration x wound diameter= volume of damage.

where: speed x weight = depth of penetration
meplat and/or mushrooming = wound diameter

so the question is how much damage does take for what you are hunting..??

I use j-words in 223 and 243 for norther whitetails. some would say it's not enough. others use less. but i've seen deer shot at point blank with a 12 guage run off with out a boold trail.

[35remington]

Before we all get our knickers in a twist falling all over ourselves to give the "killing power theory du jour" the point was that momentum isn't very valid as a way to choose one's hunting round. KE is undoubtedly better. KE can be supplied by big bullets or small and theories can expound from there, but 1700 ft lbs. kills a lot better than 400, and much better than a baseball.

[300savage]

Stories!! I am dying to hear how the KE theory has held up for you in the field. I am sure that you have a few examples of your own to back up your position of how fast and light kills better in the real world than does heavy and slow. On critterz bigger than a coyote that is.
And dang it I wish the next time someone is getting their undies in a wad that someone would let me know in time to see.
I just hate missing that.

[Hamish]

Great thread guy's! Have alway's hoped I would make it back to BI someday to hunt, it's nice to know the habitat is being cared for.

Laughed my head off the first time I ate the vaunted Hawaiian BBQ and it tasted of mesquite! (Kiawe, indeed. Humph) :-D

As to the OP, some very interesting stuff here. Makes me wonder who on this board has done any work with a super heavy in .22 bore, say over 110 grains? A .22 "Cruise Missile" as it were. (sending out telepathic signals to the RPM crowd)

[leftiye]

So,, velocity÷meplat×wound diameter/length= lethality ?

Maybe Wound diameter X penetration (per Grampa) says it all. Barring just happening to poke a tiny little hole in exactly the right place that is. How does KE werk with FMJs?

[grampa243]

Barring just happening to poke a tiny little hole in exactly the right place that is. How does KE werk with FMJs?

with FMJ i would say it only works when you poke a tiny little hole in exactly the right place. or hit some that adds to the damage i.e. bone; gear; walls;

when picking range lead i have found many FMJs for 223 to 45 that looked like they could be cleaned and loaded for another round. ( this is from a hard bank of rock and clay.)

[Rattus58]

Great thread guy's! Have alway's hoped I would make it back to BI someday to hunt, it's nice to know the habitat is being cared for.

Laughed my head off the first time I ate the vaunted Hawaiian BBQ and it tasted of mesquite! (Kiawe, indeed. Humph) :-D

As to the OP, some very interesting stuff here. Makes me wonder who on this board has done any work with a super heavy in .22 bore, say over 110 grains? A .22 "Cruise Missile" as it were. (sending out telepathic signals to the RPM crowd)Are there any 110 .224 bullet molds anywhere out there that you are aware of?

Aloha... :cool:

[nanuk]

Yet I haven't heard of much game killed by Catfish Hunter.


I am not a fan of baseball, but I remember seeing on the news, a pitcher killing a seagull with a baseball!

[Rattus58]

I am not a fan of baseball, but I remember seeing on the news, a pitcher killing a seagull with a baseball!:grin: