Mixing Bens Red

[41 mag fan]

Ben I hope you don't mind I post this, I'm hoping it'll help members who want to try making a batch!

To start off....DO NOT HEAT IN PYREX!!! UNLESS IT"S VERY LOW HEAT!!!
I was melting out my Bens Red and forgot to check the temp on my hotplate, noticed it when it was melting, took my Pyrex cup off the hotplate, poured what Bens Red I had in it, into an old Beer Mug, set the Pyrex down on my bench. Just as I turned, it shattered throwing pieces of glass all over the place.....hitting the back of my neck and head. If I hadn't of turned, possibly I might be in the ER getting glass out of my eyes...there was that potential, if the stars had lined up just right!!!

But I've noticed members wanting to make Bens Red, and asking lots of questions on hot to make, about substituting ingredients, and what amounts to use.
Well, IMO Ben came up with one very good lube and was very gracious to share his recipe with all of us.

But here's what I did to start off...
These amounts are what gwpercle posted in the thread of Bens Red ...help

24 ozs. = 3 cups - melted beeswax
14 ozs. = 1 3/4 cups - Red N Tacky , heat it..it doesn't really melt
4.6 ozs. = 2/3 cup - Johnsons Paste Wax - melted
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup - Dexron II or III ATF
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup- STP Oil Treatment

Now my first batches I made a few years back or so, I followed the oz, not the cups melted.
And I melted and mixed all together at once.
I slowly heat everything up, not letting it smoke. On a hotplate too, not over direct flame.
With the ingredients listed above, I slowly mixed it up, taking between 35-45 minutes to cook. Stirring constantly
The Lucas R&T, will be lumpy, to help break the lumps, I use a whisk while stirring.

After that time frame, I would pour it into a bowl with a tee shirt rubber banded around to sift it. I use the whisk, and push it thru the tee shirt, then It'll still be hot, I pour it into a baking pan. I've done it 2 ways, I've placed the pan in the freezer, the other i let set out and cool.
Afterwards, next day normally, I'd be able to just dump it out by turning it over, as it would pull away from the baking pan, shrinking basically.
Cut into strips, remelt if you make lube sticks, put in a baggie and use when needed.

After following the thread on Bens Red...need help, I noticed RunfiveRun, mentioned about melting the R&T first, then the JPW melted, with adding the beeswax last melted, I decided to try it.
So here's what I did, and my findings so far....
Actual cook time 2:00 hrs.

i started out by melting the R&T, watched it go to a liquidous state, then dropped the temp to let it kind of come back together. While going into the liquidous state, it did start separating, and when I dropped temp down, to came back together, looked likke a darkish tomato paste.
One thing I will add on this I increased temperature a little at a time, till it finally started liquifying.

Since i didn't have but 1 hotplate, I had to do everything singly, but the next thing I did was melt the JPW. I let it melt slow, and after fully melted, let it set on hotplate an extra 5 minutes or so.
Added this to the R&T and stirred it together.

Next I started the melting of the beeswax. Melt it SLOW, don't let it smoke, or you'll scorch it.
While the beeswax was melting, I added the Dexron and ATF to the R&T & JPW.
When the beeswax is melted, I add it immediately not letting it sit on the hotplate.

Next I turned my hotplate down to med/low, placed the mix on it, and put a lid on it, stirring it every couple of minutes. At 20 minutes, I took the lid off and started using a whisk to stir with.
After 35-40 minutes, I seen it starting to smoke, I pulled it off the hotplate, and started straining thru a tee shirt. Next I put mix in my baking pan and placed in the freezer.

After about 30 min, I took a look at it. I noticed this one is the same color as my other batches, but it felt firmer to the touch than my last batches.
This could be from using the oz not the cup version.

I'll let it set till tomorrow and try to get some pictures put up with it.
I hope this helps anyone who decides to try Bens Red. I think, if you follow how I or Ben Or Deanwinchester and others have made it, you'll be as satisfied as I am with it.

One thing I might add, don't steal a pot to melt things in from your wife or significant other. After I got a bright idea, we had a pot we never use, i went inside and got in the cabinet. Well that pot just cost me probably $200 before it's all said and done.
I now have to buy the evil eyed one a new set of pots and pans, but also a new pyrex measuring cup, as i took 1 of 2 of them she has.....
Dang women!!

Here's my test lube of Bens Red by reversing how to mix the ingredients. The one on the right is the new batch, the one on the left is my old batch. The old batch is 2 double batches melted together.
As you can see by the poor picture, but both of them are red, no discoloration by heating the LR&T first.

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/Photo05121152_zps83eb1262.jpg (http://s1140.photobucket.com/user/91msd92/media/Photo05121152_zps83eb1262.jpg.html)

[Ben]

41 mag fan

If what you are doing will help with the making of Ben's Red, that's fine with me.

Thanks,
Ben

[41 mag fan]

41 mag fan

If what you are doing will help with the making of Ben's Red, that's fine with me.

Thanks,
Ben

That's all I'm wanting to do Ben is help the members who might be in question. Altering or substituting ingredients....no. What you've come up with works, and shouldn't be any substitutions or additions added to it.

[Ben]

Most of the problems with Ben's Red ( not all ) have come from people who said ...." I substituted XXX for Lucas R / T. I also substituted XXX for the Beeswax, my lube that I've made is useless, what do I do now ?

UUUuuummmm ? ? ?.............What do you tell these people ?

[fryboy]

to try again with the correct recipe :P

when i made my batch i too posted a break down ( complete with quantities used built around a whole tube as weighing out R&T is a messy task :P ) altho i have to admit that you 41 are a much better typer and detailer than i am :P

[runfiverun]

come on.
it's just lube.
what could possibly go wrong with substituting some stuff here and there.
i think I am gonna make some bread later and put in oatmeal instead of flour.

[OLPDon]

Hmmmm
Seems to be an ongoing theme on most of the Home Brew Lube Recipes “If it ant broke.... Fix it till it is!!!!!!!"

Don

[41 mag fan]

come on.
it's just lube.
what could possibly go wrong with substituting some stuff here and there.
i think I am gonna make some bread later and put in oatmeal instead of flour.

Could you make them muffins instead of bread and use bran instead?? :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Never would I change Felix or Ben's red.
The only question is heat and sequence.
41 is helping me, I did get too hot with mine. Who knew the Coleman stove was hot as the sun?

[Wingnutt]

I've never made Bens Red, but I have made a lot of lithium grease/bees wax experimental lubes. This is what I do when the grease leaves the little stringy things like Ben describes.

I let the mix start to solidify and stir it as it sets up. This incorporates the grease completely. I then melt again on medium heat stiring all the while. The second melting is usually all I find that is needed.........

[KinkBreaker]

i made bens red the other day. used the ingredients exactly as called for in the measures listed. is it supposed to smell so bad?

[btroj]

Oh, it smells bad to me. It works far better than it smells. At least it smells better than Alpx.

[Ben]

Like btroj says It works far better than it smells.


What until you see those tight groups down range.

The smell issue will move to the back burner then.

Ben

[btroj]

I will always accept a bad smell if the results show up on the target. BR meets that criteria.

[billdean]

Hello Ben.............Thank you for posting your lube recipe. I had a chance to make some of it today and shoot some also. This was my very first time at making any lube so yes I am a novice at best. I thought I followed the recipe to the letter. I used exactly the ingredients as you laid them out or I think I did. I noticed my lube is not real red like yours is. When looking at the lubed bullets it is more orange. In the pan it looks like a diluted orange. Not that this matters but I am questioning whether I did things right. I noticed when I shot the lubed bullets they smoked a little, but very noticeable. My barrel was shiny clean though. The lube is firm but not hard and seem to have a little drag to it and not real slippery. The bullet seemed to group ok or at least as well as I can see through open sites. Anyone have any idea what I may have done? I followed the recipe below.

24 ozs. = 3 cups - melted beeswax
14 ozs. = 1 3/4 cups - Red N Tacky
4.6 ozs. = 2/3 cup - Johnson's Paste Wax - melted
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup - Dexron III ATF
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup- STP Oil Treatment
704887048970490

[kbstenberg]

I don't know if anyone has suggested it. But I found a good trick to get the R.T out of the tube. The plastic cover that is on the end of the tube. I take it off and use a knife to cut the outside flange off. Re-insert the cover where it was on the tube. It makes a good seal. Then use anything that is a little smaller than the inside wall dia. of the tube to push the grease out.
I must have been doing something wrong. Out of 2 batches that I have made I never have had any little globs of grease in the mix.
2 How can you guys get your heated lube to flow through a T-shirt? I just had a idea! My heated lube must be too thick to strain through the shirt. Ben should I add a little more of either the STP or Tranny fluid to make it thinner? Kevin

[DeanWinchester]

I've said this in several other posts. GET A TOASTER OVEN.

They hold in the heat and allow you to melt at lower, more controlled temps.


I use mine for making lube and pan lubing. When melting, say the beeswax. I'll turn the oven to about 180 degrees and come back whenever. It won't scortch and will be sitting there waiting.
The last batch I made I left the Lucas in there for two hours at about 200 degrees. I work here at home so it ain't nothing. It was smooth kinda like melted chocolate. When I added the melted beeswax there wasnt a lump hardly at all.

I'm telling you guys. A toaster oven is great. ...for pan lubing too. Say you have 100 boolits in the pan, you cut them out with a cookie cutter, place another hundred in the holes, pop it in the toaster oven, set the timer for twenty minutes and leave it. Come back tomorrow or next week and it's ready to go again

[runfiverun]

why is this so hard?
melt stuff together and pour it in a pan.
the way 41 mag made it this time is based on melting everything totally.

if you need to pour it through something a strainer from the second hand shop does just fine.
a blender from the same place helps too.


Ben.
now you know why I put up the recipe for the simple lube.

[billdean]

why is this so hard?
melt stuff together and pour it in a pan.
the way 41 mag made it this time is based on melting everything totally.

if you need to pour it through something a strainer from the second hand shop does just fine.
a blender from the same place helps too.


Ben.
now you know why I put up the recipe for the simple lube.

I would think that after 16,500 posts to this forum I would find it easy also. A little patients with us rookies, please.

[runfiverun]

fair enough, sorry.

many of those posts come from the quest lube thread where we make something and test it weekly [sometimes 2 or 3 in a week].
I probably have over 30 lube recipes memorized and 6-8 written out I haven't made yet.
most of them use base ingredients such as making the red and tacky grease from scratch or by altering the gelling stearate for a different outcome.
or by making a form of felix lube from different synthetic base oils.

41 MAG is just showing the outcome from a different cooking method based on those tests [except it can be a more efficient method]

making lube is quite easy but things can go wrong.
I have made the 3 am 50 yd dash out the garage door in a snow storm with a flaming ball of polyglycol on the end of a melting plastic fork heading to a snow bank to douse it more than once.
and have had stuff just poof into flames cooking solvents off or from exceeded their flash point.
learning the melt points of the ingredients and using them to your advantage as well as knowing which ingredients will cook off or will bond together or can be altered with heat is handy information.

Bens Red is a good lube.
you just have to pay attention when making it and follow the directions, as well as the ingredients listed.

could I modify it? yeah, [and I have] but there is no reason to change it.
it is made from stuff available to everybody and it does the job.
what's not to like?
the only minor issue with it was the unmixed grease chunks some are seeing, the modified cooking directions are dealing with that.

[41 mag fan]

Dean...You've got a very good idea with the toaster oven. I think I'm going to go buy one, for the next time I make some up!

kbstenberg...Kevin, Don't go off the proven formula or amounts......this is what has caused a lot of members to post why their attempt at making Bens Red didn't work. The only thing that you want to play with on making Bens Red is the beeswax. If you want it stiffer or more tacky, reduce or add this ingredient only.
On straining thru a shirt, I put a shirt around a bowl with a rubber band, pour a little at a time and use either a whisk or wooden spoon to help it strain thru the tee shirt. It'll still be hot when you get it all strained, which will take a little time to get it all worked thru the shirt, then I put it in a baking pan and put in frrezer or leave to cool on it own.



Never would I change Felix or Ben's red.
The only question is heat and sequence.
41 is helping me, I did get too hot with mine. Who knew the Coleman stove was hot as the sun?

Jim, This thread i started didn't have anything to do with your test on making it. I'm honored I can help you out, as you have much knowledge on pistols and have taught me much thru your posts. Kind of a payback!
But this had to do with Runs comments on melting the R&T first. I wanted to experiment!
Plus I was hoping members who wanted to give it a try would read how I mix it up and follow what me or Dean or Ben have posted and get good results the first time.


Hello Ben.............Thank you for posting your lube recipe. I had a chance to make some of it today and shoot some also. This was my very first time at making any lube so yes I am a novice at best. I thought I followed the recipe to the letter. I used exactly the ingredients as you laid them out or I think I did. I noticed my lube is not real red like yours is. When looking at the lubed bullets it is more orange. In the pan it looks like a diluted orange. Not that this matters but I am questioning whether I did things right. I noticed when I shot the lubed bullets they smoked a little, but very noticeable. My barrel was shiny clean though. The lube is firm but not hard and seem to have a little drag to it and not real slippery. The bullet seemed to group ok or at least as well as I can see through open sites. Anyone have any idea what I may have done? I followed the recipe below.

24 ozs. = 3 cups - melted beeswax
14 ozs. = 1 3/4 cups - Red N Tacky
4.6 ozs. = 2/3 cup - Johnson's Paste Wax - melted
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup - Dexron III ATF
2.3 ozs. = 1/3 cup- STP Oil Treatment
704887048970490

Ok, Here's my experience....when my pyrex blew up, which is in my first part of the post, I had poured what i had from my Pyrex into an old beer mug. When it cooled it was the same color as yours....only finding I can think of is the beeswax scorched. You had it up way to hot and scorched it.

My camera on my phone is horrible, but the pictures I took of my batches are red in color, even though they don't look like it.

Plus the swirls of Red in it...did you strain thru a tee shirt? They look like chunks in there.
if you try again, read how I've made it, and follow the steps I outlined and yours will come out red like mine did and my batches from a while back have. Good luck on your next try! If you need help pm me and I'll be more than happy to walk you thru it or give advice if you need it.

[DeanWinchester]

The bowl and rubber band will work great when filtering through a tshirt.
It wouldn't hurt to have a hair dryer handy, it'll help keep things from coagulating in the fabric.

[44man]

41 sent me some of his lube to test and it looks perfect. It smells more like beeswax while mine smells like old motor oil.

[KinkBreaker]

if it smells bad does that mean it got burnt?

[44man]

if it smells bad does that mean it got burnt?

Yeah, I think.

[KinkBreaker]

im not allowed to bring it in the house

[DeanWinchester]

I added a vial of patchouli oil to mine. Smells like a hippie.
Just be careful what kind f scented oils you use. I tried some once and it foamed up and went everywhere.
The one oil I found that works doesn't change the lube properties one bit but it does make for some very confused people at the gun range. I can empty a magazine of 9mm from my Glock and you can smell it half way up the firing line.

When I'm pan lubing, I come in the house and the wife says "been lubin boolits again huh?" the smell isn't overpowering but it's certainly present.
Lots of fun!

[runfiverun]

bees wax will scorch if you take it over about 200-f.
it doesn't completely ruin the lube but it doesn't do it any good either.
[you start breaking the ester compounds down and releasing the alcohols]
melt the grease and other stuff together and hold it at the 350+ for a few minutes.
this takes the solvents off the jpw, and the napthenics out of the atf/stp.

either melt the b-wax separately or break it into chunks.
pull the grease off the heat and add the wax. [turn the heat down at this point]
stir,stir ,stir
you might have to put it back on/off the heat to help the wax if you don't pre-melt it.
once the wax is all melted and blended pour it out to cool.

[KinkBreaker]

i melted the beewax separate from everything else i must have just but the beewax in the grease while the grease was to hot
i will do better next time im sure, but ill have to use what i made. i may swing by the wally world to see if there is something i can de stink it with.
im pan lubing with it and i really need to be able to bring it in the house without the wife flippin out

[runfiverun]

it will have an old musty grease smell even if made properly, there is no way around it.
once it's made the smell generally dissipates but some women will smell it no matter what, and don't even think about using alox around them.

one sneaky trick to cover the smell is to burn some popcorn in the microwave, it covers just about everything.

[fecmech]

one sneaky trick to cover the smell is to burn some popcorn in the microwave, it covers just about everything.
You are one devious dude Run!

[billdean]

When melting the Red and Tacky grease does it actually turn to liquid or does it stay paste like? Maybe I am burning the R&T grease and getting it to hot. I does smoke a lot when melting it. I start off on a low heat and work my way up. It never does turn to the consistency of say the bees wax which is very liquid.

[runfiverun]

you'll see a drop point temperature on the tube, it should be about 350-f.
stuff like wheel bearing grease is over 500-f.
to get Lithium-12 stearate to blend into a pao oil you have to take the heat to over 450-f at a minimum.

when melting the grease take your time and monitor your temperatures.
your lead thermometer is useful but is not really gonna give you a correct temperature.
it will give you an indication of what is happening though.
the grease will go mostly liquid but it will go to a jelly like state as it cools down.
the slow heating also gives the jpw time to steam off and cook down.

once you do this a time or two you don't need to measure the temp and such as you will visually que in on what is happening.

hit the grease with the wax and stir,stir,stir.
use the wax to cool down the grease mix and use the stove to keep bumping the temp if you need to get the wax melted a little more.
the grease will cool down fast once you take the pan off the heat.

[runfiverun]

the grease won't really go to a full thin liquid [it has been tied up with a lith stearate] what liquid you do see is the free oils and the wax is what ties those up.

I have tried tying all the free oils up with Li-12 Li stearate, regular Li-lithium stearate, and aluminum stearate, as well as sodium stearate.
you can take all the oils in by adding 5-7% more stearate but you cannot control them in heat or under pressure [they come free again]
you can however lower the wax content of the lube.
you have to get up to the 22% stearate area to totally lock up all the oils.
you end up with a block grease and don't need the wax to make a solid.
[this doesn't really work well for boolit lube]

one of the things that has done pretty good is moving the stearate up to 33+% of the lube and the wax down to the same amount, and using lesser amounts of oil,plus substituting the solid form of the oil for a large portion of the lube.
you can then tie the whole thing into a homogenous solid where the oils become part of the internals instead of the "wet lube" part.

[KinkBreaker]

ok hopefully ill get out to shoot some boolits wearin bens red (aka, bens reddish-orange and stinky) this weekend. just some thoughts on the stuff so far.
it is very sticky and wants to stay on the bullet
it retracts its size when cooled so if you want to take it out of a pan its pretty easy
melting it again got rid of alot of the smell, still doesnt smell pleasant but you got to put your face right in the stuff to smell it

fiver what would you use block grease for?

[gwpercle]

I like Dean's suggestion to add a vail of Patchouli . Every time I smell that , it brings back memories of a sweet young thing from the 1960's, she liked to burn patchouli encense while we ....talked in her room. Shooting those boolits would bring back a lot of fond memories.

Thanks DeanWinchester

Gary

[41 mag fan]

I like Dean's suggestion to add a vail of Patchouli . Every time I smell that , it brings back memories of a sweet young thing from the 1960's, she liked to burn patchouli encense while we ....talked in her room. Shooting those boolits would bring back a lot of fond memories.

Thanks DeanWinchester

Gary

What kind of boolits were you shooting when you was "talking" in her room??? :Fire:[smilie=1:

[runfiverun]

block grease is used in high heat/pressure applications.
and it takes extreme pressure to extrude them into place.
you have different 'grades' of grease all the way from #1 through #7
#1 is like a light oil almost.
#1.5 is white lith assembly grease.
#2 is the brown lith grease or like the red and tacky.
you also have a #2.5 grease that is slightly thicker
#3 is wheel bearing grease.
#7 is a solid block of grease that is almost wax like.

I have used solid stick grease in some applications that was a #5 or so it takes @350 psi of pressure to make them flow through their fittings.
a #7 can take about 1,000- 1,500 psi of pressure to make them flow into place.

[uscra112]

Has anybody accurately converted the liquid measure to weight? Seems to me it would be a lot easier to get to get the portions accurate.

[Recluse]

+1 to not using Pyrex. I've had more of that stuff shatter on me than anything else. For mixing lubes, I still--and always will--prefer the cheap pots you can get at the Dollar Store. Easy to clean, and if you reach the point to where they won't clean up, toss 'em--you only have a buck or two invested in them.

Old crock pots from Goodwill stores or thrift stores, garage sales, flea markets, et al, are great for holding, storing and (re)melting pan lubes and/or lubes you melt to pour into your lubesizers--especially Star sizers.

Like many others, I've found that melting the principle solid in your lube recipe--in the case of Ben's Red, that would be the Lucas Red & Tacky--first is the key to a successful venture. I've made it even easier on my self by using an old electric mixer I found at a garage sale for a couple of dollars to liquify the solid components that are stubborn to melt. *CAUTION* Use the mixer on the lowest speed setting available so that the hot/melted lube doesn't "sling" as it can burn you because it IS hot--very hot.

However, when all the components ARE finally melted, I use an old metal whisk to finish the final blending. Super easy to clean as I just go over it with a heat gun and anything left on it melts off.


Most of the problems with Ben's Red ( not all ) have come from people who said ...." I substituted XXX for Lucas R / T. I also substituted XXX for the Beeswax, my lube that I've made is useless, what do I do now ?

UUUuuummmm ? ? ?.............What do you tell these people ?

I got asked all the time if such-and-such could be substituted for such-and-such. My answer was always the same: Try it and see.

In some instances, like substituting compound or polishing waxes that had carnauba in them, but that ALSO had abrasive compounds, I advised against it.

But as RFR stated, if you substitute oatmeal for flour for making bread, you might come out with something edible, but it's not going to be or act or taste like the recipe you altered.

Experimentation is great--it's how we learned a lot of our craft here. But in the process, if I use STP and gasoline instead of transmission fluid and mineral spirits to make Ed's Red, I'm no longer making Ed's Red--I'm making something else. It may clean guns like the dickens, but it's not Ed's Red.

:coffee:

[KinkBreaker]

run- very informative about the grease thank you, i think i may have use the heavy stuff once back in my construction days on a steam turbine bearing.

i think i heard on the news or something a few years ago that the companies that make the pyrex stuff changed the composition of the glass to make it cheaper to produce. and the newer stuff doesnt handle rapid temperature changes or variations in temperature very well

also got some 45/70 lubed and i hope to put em down the tube tomorrow

[41 mag fan]

Old crock pots from Goodwill stores or thrift stores, garage sales, flea markets, et al, are great for holding, storing and (re)melting pan lubes and/or lubes you melt to pour into your lubesizers--especially Star sizers.


Recluse....That is an awesome idea on storing lube!! Thank You for posting that. I'm going to look for the one serving mini crock pots they have out. I can heat it on low on my hotplate, and build a lube pourer like Ben posted awhile back, to pour into my lube reservoir.
Excellent idea Recluse....Thank You again.