Favorite way to de-lead and maintain .45 Colt barrel

[DougGuy]

Have a few different cast loads, some GC some PB from Beartooth, barrel looks pretty clean, if there is leading it is hard to see and makes me think there can't be a whole lot. What I am noticing, is with a clean barrel, most of the cast loads will print to the center of the target, after maybe 10 rounds, point of impact will shift a little toward the left where it will settle and stay through the rest of the range session. If I clean it again, or run some j words through it, point of impact returns back to center and will walk back toward the left by a couple of inches within 10 rounds again.

Gun is an Old Model Vaquero, 4 5/8" barrel, cylinder throats are reamed to .4525" and the barrel is Taylor throated, so there are no constrictions, it doesn't spit, it's really a good shooter. Boolits are sized .452" and velocities are typical for Ruger Only, 22 - 23gr H110 under a 340gr GC or a 325gr GC.

What jag or cleaning material would you recommend to maintain this bore and keep it shooting to center? Brush wrapped with Chore Boy between strings of fire?

Also, these are lubed with that hard blue lube that Beartooth uses, could that have anything to do with groups shifting point of impact or would using softer lube like Felix make a difference?

Note: If I take this gun home and run just a bronze .50 brush through it, not much comes out of the bore but a little black powdery burnt powder residue, if it is leading, it's very minimal unless I just can't see it.

[handyman25]

What size is the barrel? My ruger blackhawks had throats at .450 with groves at .453, they leaded badly. I cleaned the barrel with chore boy and opened the throats to .454 and cast my bullets to .454. I use recluses 45/45/10 and have no leading. If the bullets fit the barrel (one thousand over) with some lube then I do not get any leading. If I need more than a bore size brush then something is not correct and I start looking to see what I am doing wrong. I do not think you need more than a bore size brush. Just my opinion. I have been wrong before, I can not remember when.:shock:

Old age has some benefits.

[Iron Mike Golf]

OK, so it takes 10 rds to reach a stable point. I'd clean with dry patches only and see if you don't eliminate that "clean bore" shift. You are probably getting to a point where after 10 rds, each rd blows out "excess" residue and the bore pretty much stays the same from shot to shot after that. How many rounds in a shooting session do you shoot?

[btroj]

After cleaning or shooting jacketed it is shooting to a specific place. After 10 or so cast loads impact has moved left a little and then stabilizes there.
Sounds like this is a good time to learn to hold a little right. The gun wants to shoot cast to that point of impact, lube change isn't going to make that desire go away. It may move impact a little butit could make it go the wrong way!

You can learn to hold a bit right, shoot jacketed, or clean every 5 rounds or so.

What i would do is try changing the load a bit. A different load may move impact far more than a change in lube.

[44MAG#1]

If you are getting that slight amount of fouling why are you cleaning the barrel to begin with. Seems like the problem is cause by OCD concerning a clean barrel.
You will get rid of the problem by sending your gun to Dustin or John Linebaugh and having a drift adjustable front sight installed on it. Have a sight made extra tall, file it in for elevation, shoot the gun enough till the group goes where you want it to go and then drift the sight so the gun is sighted.
Problem solved.
Think about it.

[DougGuy]

If you are getting that slight amount of fouling why are you cleaning the barrel to begin with. Seems like the problem is cause by OCD concerning a clean barrel.
You will get rid of the problem by sending your gun to Dustin or John Linebaugh and having a drift adjustable front sight installed on it. Have a sight made extra tall, file it in for elevation, shoot the gun enough till the group goes where you want it to go and then drift the sight so the gun is sighted.
Problem solved.
Think about it.

And then if it needs cleaning, it shoots to the right? Heh no thank you. Like I said in the original post, the gun shoots really good. It shoots good groups, if I shoot J words, it shoots to point of aim til the cows come home. It only drifts a bit to the left after 10 rounds of cast, and it doesn't seem to matter if it's GC or PB.

Barrel is right at .452" and I can clean it or brush it before hunting and I know it's already sighted in perfectly, surely won't be more than one or two shots fired before it's time to drag something out of the woods.

I used the .50 brush because it's the only one I had.

[btroj]

Why do you assume that cast and jacketed will shoot to same point of aim?

The gun drifts to the left over a few rounds then stay there for a long time with cast. Why? Because that is where the cast bullets impact with that point of aim.

It isn't fouling or leading that is causing the issue. It is because you're shooting 2 different loads and they have different points of impact. Pretty simple really.

[Rodfac]

Hard to fix a windage problem...would probably have the dovetailed front sight installed as was suggested. I've corrected a N. Vaquero for windage by widening the rear notch with a small file then cold bluing the resultant bare metal...it worked just fine, and is not noticeable unless I point it out, but offers only a minimal amt of lateral correction. I got about an inch and a half by doing it...just about the limit of what is possible.

At my age, the wider notch is just right for seeing the front sight...the gun, BTW, is in .45 Colt and just two days ago, shot a 1-1/2" gp with my standard load. For that Vaquero, I've settled on one load: Lyman's 454190 255 gr FN sized .454", with enough Win 231 to give it a chrono'd 850 fps velocity. It's no powder-puff, shoots into less than 2" at 25 yds from a rest, duplicating the factory smokeless powder loads in use for the past 100 yrs. Cast from straight Wheel Weights, and lubed with the old NRA 50-50 formula, those bullets cost me less than 1/2 cent a piece!

As to leading....I'm not a fan of the chore-boy solution. I've tried to find pure copper chore-boy's by checking those available at Walmart, Dollar Store etc. with a magnet...all of the ones I've found were steel plated with copper...not something I'd willingly push down one of my barrels...they're especially troublesome on the critical muzzle crown....be careful!! In my opinion, the best solution, aside from an alloy/size/lube that won't lead, is to invest in a Lewis Lead Remover. They're available from Midway etc., have been in use for 60 years, and are first rate for the job at hand. I've used mine for 50 years, no kiddin', with complete success. The brass screens last forever and a cpl passes with the rod/screen is all it takes. Good Luck, and be damned careful with that chore-boy if you go that route.

Here's a pic of the back end of that New Vaquero rear notch adjustment. I filed on the left side of the notch to widen it, then cold blued the result...movement of the shot group was about an inch and a half. The procedure was: file 005", measured with a caliper, then shoot a cpl of six shot groups...file another .005" and shoot again. It took three attempts to get it about right. Luckily, I have a home range off my back deck here on the farm, which makes the adjustment process easy. Here's a tip: mask everything you don't want to nick with that file...I used electrician's tape, but masking tape would do as well...and I did slip once with the file...glad the tape saved me.

Best Regards, Rod

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Handguns/PC090598.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/Rodfac/media/Handguns/PC090598.jpg.html)

[44MAG#1]

"And then if it needs cleaning, it shoots to the right? Heh no thank you"

I've noticed a lot of people like to make mountains out of mole hills.
If it only takes maybe 10 rounds to get it back to where the cast normally shoots how is that a problem? If you use cast as a hunting load don't clean it after shooting cast in it before hunting with it. Then walla it is still sighted in for hunting. Don't you practice any before hunting?
If you use jacketed for hunting then clean it and Walla again it is sighted in.
What problem would that be.
Not trying to be cute or anything but where is this really a problem that is hard to deal with?

[btroj]

And how far left? Are we taking a few inches or more like a foot?

[covert]

I would leave it be. You said it moves 2" to the left, what distance are you shooting?

[DougGuy]

You know, it's not really a problem. It corrects itself if I clean the bore with a dry brush. It's an interesting phenomenon and I thought somebody might have a simple explanation.

It don't need the barrel turned, or a dovetail front sight or the rear sight opened up. The gun shoots perfectly to point of aim all day with J ammo, and shoots perfectly to point of aim with the first 10 or so cast boolits. I have 3 loads that will punch paper through the same holes. One of them is a J load.

On a related note: If you think there is a hard fast rule (like I used to) that says cast and J don't shoot to the same point of aim, you likely haven't owned a Taylor throated gun. All I can say, is that it works and it works very well. This gun used to shoot a 340gr hardcast high but I found out that it was the thread constriction that caused the muzzle to rise more from extra pressure trying to swage down a .452" hardcast through an hourglass. After throating, that load dropped point of impact almost 6" in 50' this is the only Ruger that I have owned that has been properly "dimensionally corrected" in the cylinder throats and barrel threaded areas, and it's the only one so far that has managed to print J and cast loads to the same point of aim. But it is possible.

It just made me curious enough after watching groups move to the left after 2 wheels full to toss it out and ask a question about it. It may be something so simple as the dimples on the inside of the barrel behind the warning rollmark collecting a bit of fouling or leading between them causing it. It's on the left side of the barrel. Also, after 10 rounds of Ruger Only loads, the gun gets pretty warm, that could have something to do with it.

[44MAG#1]

I am glad that you have realized that your problem isn't that great.
If you have a gun that shoots that good you have a good gun.
I have a New Vaquero and I like it alot. It has a drift adjustable front on it and I really like it. I shoot mainly 800 to 900 fps loads with a 255 gr 454424 to 270 (282 gr) Mihec 270 SAA bullet in mine as I have Blackhawks and a Redhawk to use for the powerful loads if I ever need them. But I have a few guns that are far more powerful than any 45 colt load if I need power.
I have an Encore in 454 Casull that I can use a 515gr 45/70 bullet in at 1250 and have went higher but that load shoots well.
Naturally it has ADJUSTABLE sights with a higher than normal front blade on it.

[GARCIA]

Have pretty much the same problem with my rifles and handguns.
First couple of rounds out of a clean barrel and they do not land at the exact point of aim.
Couple of fouling shots and everything settles down.
No longer detail clean my weapons because of it.
Why waste good ammo?

Tom

[DougGuy]

Have a few different cast loads, some GC some PB from Beartooth, barrel looks pretty clean, if there is leading it is hard to see and makes me think there can't be a whole lot. What I am noticing, is with a clean barrel, most of the cast loads will print to the center of the target, after maybe 10 rounds, point of impact will shift a little toward the left where it will settle and stay through the rest of the range session. If I clean it again, or run some j words through it, point of impact returns back to center and will walk back toward the left by a couple of inches within 10 rounds again.

Gun is an Old Model Vaquero, 4 5/8" barrel, cylinder throats are reamed to .4525" and the barrel is Taylor throated, so there are no constrictions, it doesn't spit, it's really a good shooter. Boolits are sized .452" and velocities are typical for Ruger Only, 22 - 23gr H110 under a 340gr GC or a 325gr GC.

Also, these are lubed with that hard blue lube that Beartooth uses, could that have anything to do with groups shifting point of impact or would using softer lube like Felix make a difference?



Think I found the answer.. Fired some 320gr WFN GC boolits lubed with Felix lube, and all the groups stayed centered on the target and they grouped quite well over 17.0gr 2400 and 18.0gr Lilgun. Must be that the blue magma lube is staying hard and not melting and the bore is collecting a bit of lead fouling where the Felix is much softer lube..

[Potsy]

My .02, FWIW.
My barrels get dry patched about once a year (which is usually a couple hundred rounds in my Bisley and my Kimber, not a whole lot) inspected, then a little rem-oil shot down them, mostly out of conscience. Yes, there is some lead fouling in them. It stays there. It never builds up. The groups never change (though my poor shooting ability may be overcoming minute statistical differences!). Impact never shifts. I just figure lead needs a little lead and lube already there to "grease things up abit". Granted, my loads work well and I don't experiment a whole lot anymore.
Both barrels are stainless but show no signs of pitting. I've been under the understanding that the alox/beeswax combo should inhibit rust. If not, why have my sizing dies and press not started to rot?
The only severe leading issue I've ever had was with commercial cast bullets, bevel base, with lube so hard most of it was still in the lube groove after the bullet was dug out of a stump. After a couple hundred of those, my old 4-5/8" convertible was pretty nasty. Fortunately, I figured out the cause as opposed to giving up on cast.
My guns do get cleaned and lubed semi-regularly, don't get me wrong. I just always figured that barrels that were shot with cast (smokeless powder, of course) and did not build up lead fouling were better left alone. YMMV.
Of course, if I'm totally wrong on this, I'm still not too old to learn if anyone has a dissenting opinion.

[DougGuy]

Well, for a hunting arm, I want that first shot to hit dead nut to point of aim. If that happens best with a clean barrel then that's what I will do, and so far this pistol is showing a preference for just that. I found some Chore Boy (at least the equivalent) and wrapped some around a plastic jag and man this stuff worked really really good, there wasn't much lead in the barrel and what came out was mostly dust but it's mirror clean now and ready for hunting.

I doubt this gun will ever see anything but a wide flat nose heavy weight cast boolit, and if I dry scrub it with the chore boy after 5-6rds and that's what it takes to keep it zeroed and consistent, that's okay too cause it sure is a good shooting pistol....
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OT:

Laughable, maybe, but has anyone looked for Chore Boy recently?? It took me quarter tank of gas, 7 or 8 stores, I was pretty pissed off by the time I did find some that wasn't plated steel wire or stainless or coated with 3M abrasive. My legs were getting tired and I was thinking the whole time I would have been better off just ebaying it, for half the gas I already wasted, and a few mouse clicks, and would have had the afternoon to do something I liked better than drive from store to store, red light to red light.

Damn crackheads, they are the reason you can't find it now..