help starting BPC loading for my new gun

[Matt85]

hello all, im new to this forum and new to reloading. i just picked up a nice looking springfield model 1884 (1888) trapdoor rifle dated 1891. barrel look outstanding for being 120+ years old and i hope to make it a shooter. i typically shoot muzzleloaders but i found this rifle too interesting to pass up.

so, ive back ordered a Lee challenger kit and 250 45-70 brass cases from starline. ive got plenty of powder of which ill probably be using KIK 2F as its my cleanest burning powder. the gun came with Pat Wolfs "Loading cartridgees for the original .47-70 springfield rifle and carbine" and the SPG lubricants "BP cartridge" books. the seller also included a mostly full box of CCI large rifle primers, 50 cases of R-P brass, a stick of SPG lube, a 457125AV Lyman mold with handles, and a Lyman 45-70 gov die set.

ive been reading threw the two books and ended up with almost as many questions as i got answers, first i should mention the two books contradrict each other. one book will say somethings great while the other will say its no good. ive found pat wolf's book to be very strict and it will be difficult to follow, expecially since the molds and dies he says must be used arent easily available at the moment.

questions:

1. how do you guage how much to compress the BP in the cartridge? will this compression plug and die work? Powder Compression Plug, .45 caliber, to fit our Lee 7/8-14 die - Track of the Wolf (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1222/1/DIE-45-COMPRESS)
2. whats the proper case expander for the 45-70 BP cartridge? will this work: Neck Expander Plug, .458" diameter, to fit our Lee 7/8-14 die - Track of the Wolf (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1221/1/DIE-458-EXP)
3. according to wolf's book i shouldnt use the Lyman bullet seaters crimp function as it will hurt the bullet. have you found this to be true? what crimping tool should i use?
4. according to the info ive read, the bullet my mold produces is longer then is should be and wont allow for a full 70 grain charge. how do i figure out what charge i can fit in the cartridge?
5. all i have for lead at the moment is wheel weight lead ingots or pure lead ingots. will the wheel weight lead work ok or do i have to buy special 20-1 (expensive) lead like Wolf recomends?

sorry for all the questions but im a little overwhelmed by this project and im unsure of what i need and how to go about starting. any other information or advice yall can give me would be great.

thank you
-Matt

[Don McDowell]

Weigh out 70 grs of powder. Slowly pour the powder thru your funnel into your primed case. Then thumb the wad on top of the powder and run the case into your compression die until the wad is far enough down to let the bullet (cast from 20-1, or wheelweights, or what ever you have on hand) seat to the driving band. Then run the case into the seating die with the crimp set to just take the flare out of the case mouth.
Load fire, and smile.
Then deprime, wash,dry, and polish the cases, and repeat the whole thing all over again.

[Texantothecore]

Just keep in mind that the old shooters frequently compressed their powder with.....a stick. I use a dowel that I have filed down so that it will limit the amount of compression when the larger section meets the top of the cartridge. I have several sticks for different boolits.

[dtknowles]

I will take a shot at answers based on what I do that works, not maybe the best practices.

1. I don't use a compression die, I let the bullet seater compress the powder when I seat the bullet.

2. The neck expander needs to be a thou or two under your bullet diameter, I recommend a Lyman M die to expand the case mouth or maybe your Lee dies have a similar die if it is a three die set.

3. I use the standard seating die to crimp but I do it in two steps, first I adjust to seat the bullet to the right depth without crimping then back off the seating stem and run the die in to crimp.

4. I use a calibrated eyeball, fill the case to almost full and then dump out powder until it looks like the bullet will fit with a little compression of the powder, powder must be compressed. I set my measure to match that charge. I put a fiber wad over the powder.

5. I would use 50/50 wheel weights and pure lead.

This will work and be safe if your rifle is in shootable condition. Others may provide ideas to improve on this with how to get more powder into the case or grease cookies to keep fowling soft and more.

Tim

[4060MAY]

google "Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading By Chuck Raithel"
download the .pdf...pretty good summation..
even has a picture of him shooting a trapdoor

[Bullshop]

"""1. I don't use a compression die, I let the bullet seater compress the powder when I seat the bullet"""

Doing this can get you into trouble. It can bulge to nose of a soft boolit to the point that the cartridge loaded thusly will not chamber.

If you have nothing better to use you can use the neck belling/inside expander assembly to compress powder.

[Don McDowell]

I use the M die to compress the powder, kills two birds with one stone. I use a separate flaring die to flare the case mouth to accept the bullet without shaving the base.

[CanoeRoller]

The first thing to remember is that everything depends on the sort of accuracy you want, and how accurately you are personally capable of shooting. For most of us these are two very different things.

The books contradict each other because different rifles have different tastes, the authors had different sample sizes, and it is only with a few tests that you will learn what works best for your rifle and is best for you. If you are after a 4 minute group, you will have a different experience than if you are after a 1 minute group. Are you after the highest degree of repeatable accuracy possible, or are you happy with something a bit less than that?

1. how do you guage how much to compress the BP in the cartridge? will this compression plug and die work? Powder Compression Plug, .45 caliber, to fit our Lee 7/8-14 die - Track of the Wolf

The amount of compression you need will depend on the type of BP you are using, the tastes of your rifle, the type of brass and the bullet you are using. For example, with Winchester brass, my favorite sharps 45-70 is happiest with about 63 grains of Goex cartridge, which was compressed about 1 lube ring. My Boolit was a 536 grain Postel made from straight wheel weights. This gave me about a 4 inch group at 200 yards, when I was up to par. When I was not up to par, it did not matter what I threw down range, I would not get a good group.

2. whats the proper case expander for the 45-70 BP cartridge? will this work: Neck Expander Plug, .458" diameter, to fit our Lee 7/8-14 die - Track of the Wolf

Generally, the expander you are after is going to depend on the size of the boolit, which should be determined by the diameter of your barrel. Many commercial dies expand too little for black powder rifles, but one that is in the range of .458 ought to be ok, as most commercial expanders are smaller than that. You also need to remember that the composition of your alloy will change the diameter of your cast boolit.

3. according to wolf's book i shouldnt use the Lyman bullet seaters crimp function as it will hurt the bullet. have you found this to be true? what crimping tool should i use?

If you heavily compress your load, you may find the boolit will back out of your brass, if that happens, you will need to either use less powder, change to a smaller slug, or crimp your brass.
Most folks who are after serious accuracy don't crimp, as you have to be obsessive about not distorting your boolit in any way, particularly the back of the slug. Many top shooters prefer no crimping at all to protect their slugs from distortion. This should also give you a clue about their amount of compression.

4. according to the info ive read, the bullet my mold produces is longer then is should be and wont allow for a full 70 grain charge. how do i figure out what charge i can fit in the cartridge?

The best way to your brasses capacity of BP is to load a FIRED round (meaning primer in place, and spent). Pour BP into your brass, place your wad on top, then use your caliper to test the room you have left to seat your boolit. Measure your boolit, see how much of the slug will extend out of your brass, dump the BP, reload the BP, adding (or subtracting) 1 grain to the charge, replace your wad and measure again. Keep this up until you have the seating depth you are after.

5. all i have for lead at the moment is wheel weight lead ingots or pure lead ingots. will the wheel weight lead work ok or do i have to buy special 20-1 (expensive) lead like Wolf recomends?

Different rifles have different tastes. Most BP target shooters prefer softer lead using, 20-1 or 30-1. If you want to be seriously competitive in BPCRS or long range, you want repeatability in your casts, which means spending more on your lead, either buying pure galena and tin, and making your own alloy, or buying the alloy ready made. If you want to be in the winners circle, you will probably want to use a known and repeatable alloy. How much difference will you get using whatever you scrounge versus buying lead? Probably enough over time to alter your groups by a few of minutes of accuracy or more (especially if you mix your boolits from one casting session to the next). You have to decide for yourself if that sort of change in accuracy matters to you.

[Matt85]

thanks for all the info!

as far as accuracy goes my starting goal is a 2" group at 100 yards. i dont even have a place to shoot 200 yards at the moment but if i did id be pretty happy with a 4" group. i intend to buy the proper alloys, molds, and dies with time but i cant afford them or even find them at the moment.

im sure ill have more questions in the future, thanks again all for sharing your knowledge!
-matt

[John Boy]

Matt, add the Lee 405gr hollow base to your 'stuff'. Trapdoors have a tendency to have bore diameters that are not standard. The 405HB will compensate obturation for these different bore diameters
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/363401/lee-1-cavity-bullet-mold-459-405-hb-45-70-government-459-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-hollow-base

Also, you might want to browse this website on trapdoors ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html Loading data is at the end of the site

[Matt85]

the current mold i have is: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Lyman_Bullet_Moulds_it-160628.aspx?CAT=4121

i plan on buying: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Saeco_Bullet_Moulds_it-163710.aspx?CAT=4133 and http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1196/1/LEE-90268 if they ever come back in stock.

i also need a sizing/lubing machine, i just lubed 25 bullets by hand and it took forever. the issue is these things are super expensive and i need to buy a computor as my home computor just died on me. im hoping i can find a used one for a good price.

im also going to start making my own lube. pat wolf recomends 50/50 bees wax and olive oil in his book.

-matt

[country gent]

My GG bullets I pan lube with a mix of emmerts improved lube. For small batches I hand lube. I use a small cake pan 8"-9" in dia stand the bullets up in it with space between them in a pan of water. Melt the lube in a double boiler while Im doing this. A small piece of lube in the pan with the bullets tells me when they are up to temp for the lube. Pour melted lube into bulles to fill lube grooves. Let cool. Cut out with a fired case mouth. My emmerts Improved recipe is 50% beeswax 40% crisco unsalted shortening, 5% canola oil, 5% lanolin. I sometimes double oil and lanolin for a stickier lube. This works good with black powder velocities and to control the fouling. If you have pure lead all you need is 2 lbs 50/50 solder with 19lbs of pure lead to make 20-1 yourself. This is a soft bullet so compressing powder any amount is going to risk deforming bullet.

[Matt85]

i have about 60 pounds of wheel weight lead id like to try and use. if it doesnt perform good enough ill buy some 20-1 lead and feed the WW lead to my musket.

[CanoeRoller]

The mold you have is pretty close to what the trapdoor was fed more than 100 years ago. I have several original slugs. I grew up near an old cavalry post, and discovered their practice range when I was a kid, and could not help but find lots of slugs and brass when I goofed off there.

Over the course of many years, there were a number of changes that were made to the design of the trap door load. The cavalry had a 400 grain slug, the infantry had a 500 grainer. I found some that were hollow base (minie balls), which I always assumed were earlier issue - the fort I lived near was founded in 1877, so it is safe to assume that the earliest issue slugs were 1876 or before. The majority of slugs I found as a kid were flat based. The lyman mold is close, but a bit narrower nosed than the original slugs I found. It ought to work just fine for you to start. It will take some time to adjust to the trapdoor, particularly if you are new to black powder or long range. You will have time to say, "Missed it," to yourself before you see the rams fall.