Classic Heart Lung Shot or through the shoulder

[Survival Bill]

This coming year is my first deer hunt with CB with my 30-06 and 180gr GC boolit and was just wondering what the best placement would be using CB the classic heart lung shot or through the shoulder shot to pin em down?

[Adam10mm]

Shoulder or spine to pin them. Heart/lung to kill them.

I prefer to lung them. I like to eat the heart. Lung shot will kill them quick enough. Neck shot for the spine ruins the neck roasts for a poor hit. Worst case I grind it for burger or sausage. When I hunt I think of the conservation of meat.

[runfiverun]

if i can get lucky enough i try to take the lungs, top of the heart, and the off shoulder.
littlegirl prefers i take out the liver.
i'll take whatever shot i can get, it will more than likely be the only one i get a chance at all season.
penetration is where i concentrate my efforts i might have to take a frontal shot.
or just a neck sticking out.
or maybe the back of the head on a bedded deer.
or a very high shoulder junction shot in some sagebrush.
we just don't get a lot of chances or time, so knowing anatomy is important.

[Adam10mm]

littlegirl prefers i take out the liver.
Liver shutdown takes a long time. The liver is just a filter. Lung shot will deprive the body of oxygen sooner and will die quicker. Not interested in a humane death, just want it dead so I can get the meat to eat and go on with life. I've had a poor hit on improperly distanced game before. Liver shot isn't a "quick" kill.

[nanuk]

I like the broadside shot in the middle of the chest

it allows for a bit of error in any direction, and kills quickly with good bleed out, and usually an exit with blood trail.

I've hunted enough to know that I can pass on an iffy shot, and another good one will come along. We are NOT over hunted up here. ( for Deer only, Moose and Elk are another story ) my last 5 or more years of deer hunting, I have not shot at a moving deer, and all have been broadside or slightly quartering.

[winelover]

Liver shutdown takes a long time. The liver is just a filter. Lung shot will deprive the body of oxygen sooner and will die quicker. Not interested in a humane death, just want it dead so I can get the meat to eat and go on with life. I've had a poor hit on improperly distanced game before. Liver shot isn't a "quick" kill.

No one told that to the large corn fed Michigan whitetail doe I shot, thru the liver, with RCBS 240 SWCGC, that piled up after 65 paces. That boolet took out two one inch diameter sapplings before hitting the deer.

Winelover

[Bo1]

Heart/Lung... ruins less meat..... I like the trailing part of the hunt as well...
Bo

[waksupi]

I take lung shots. With a boolit in .35 caliber and deer, bang/flop is very common. With elk, I haven't ever had one go more than 30 yards.

[KCSO]

he liver is the organ that filters the blood and a shot in the liver will cause blood loss that should result in death in from 5-12 minutes and unconsiousness in under 5 (per our coroner, on a human). But a deer can run over 100 yards with his heart shot up, so if you need to drop the deer NOW you need a spine shot or take out the front shoulders. This is important here as you may be hunting lees than 100 yards from somone elses leased property. Each deer is a case unto itself as one will drop at the shot and the next one will kick and run. If I have to drop a deer right on the spot I like a shot right behind the head and into the brain or spine. If I can let them run a lttle I use a lung shot.

[BIGRED]

i hunt the Swamps of South Florida and my go to shot for Deer is shoulders, reason being i am in the SWAMP. the everglades is not the best habitat to blood trail an animal. there is water everywhere and it is usually hot out, which means the quicker i can get that deer on ice the better. the wild hogs i hunt i typically shoot head/neck if they are standing still and within 150 yards. if they are moving or farther distance i go for Shoulders/Neck and try to put them down. they are alot tougher than a deer and thier heart/lungs are much farther forward than a deer. Now this Swamp Strategy changes when i go to Missouri ever fall for Rifle season. i shoot deer up there in the lungs or neck depending on available shot. the thick Woods / Islands i hunt you have to take whatever shot presents itself. most of the time i can wait for a lung shot but if i cant i aim at the neck. these deer are larger than our Florida deer and this is my "GROCERY" shopping trip. i do not want to ruin any meat if possible. 30 or 35 cal to the lungs = dead deer walkin

[runfiverun]

no the liver shot is not the fastest kill but when shooting down hill at a steep angle it is quite often the better/only option.
generally a hit there leads to the deer heading to the nearest cover, or turning up hill looking for cover.
you can generally push a boolit through the liver into one of the lungs which speeds things up considerably and an exit lends itself to a quick drop in blood pressure.
I don't go around looking for this shot but I don't hesitate to take it if it is what I have.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I have found this link benefitial ... Since I have never killed big game ... http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=084174

For you experienced hunters ... Is it accurate?

[429421Cowboy]

With a rifle and jacketed bullets that i usually hunt elk with, i take the high shoulder, gives alot of margin for error, and after a friend lost a cow this year when she jumped onto to fence after covering 500 yards with a lung hit from a .338 WM, I have settled on that fact that bigger game, especially on public land, needs bone broken to shut them down. Deer, it depends. If its in the mountains and a tough mulie buck, high shoulder to put him down and out. If it is on my own ranch and i have a free and clear broadside shot, i will take the lung shot to preserve meat. Same with antelope, I have to try and save as much meat on them as possible, so lungs if i can. With cast, i usually try for a lung shot, but won't turn down a chance to put a deer down in sight. I really don't generally take heart shots, because they can run for a long ways on them. Liver shots kill them dead as dead gets, my only issue with them is if the hit is a bit high they don't leak much blood out of the hole, just fill up internally till they die, which can make tracking harder.

[Hogdaddy]

Never had a deer run from a neck shot,, Just Slams em ; )
H/D

[jhalcott]

IF you can hit the shoulder bones and clip the spine , the animal will drop instantly. You CAN damage some meat with this shot though. A shot thru the heart lung area will kill quite quickly, BUT, the animal may move off some distance. I've had deer shot thru the heart go several hundred yards. In rough country, they can be almost impossible to recover. That and slob "hunters" make ME try to drop them at the shot! IF you have the time you CAN wait for the "perfect" broadside double lung/heart shot, but it doesn't come often in real world hunting. My grand dad told me almost 60 years ago, Take the FIRST shot offered, and do your best!

[Blammer]

My preference.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg.html)

[x101airborne]

Depends on what I am shooting and where. For Nilgai, hogs, goats, etc.... I almost have to bust the shoulder to not only anchor them, but to even get to the heart. For whitetails, a heart shot is behind the shoulder.

[waksupi]

he liver is the organ that filters the blood and a shot in the liver will cause blood loss that should result in death in from 5-12 minutes and unconsiousness in under 5 (per our coroner, on a human). But a deer can run over 100 yards with his heart shot up, so if you need to drop the deer NOW you need a spine shot or take out the front shoulders. This is important here as you may be hunting lees than 100 yards from somone elses leased property. Each deer is a case unto itself as one will drop at the shot and the next one will kick and run. If I have to drop a deer right on the spot I like a shot right behind the head and into the brain or spine. If I can let them run a lttle I use a lung shot.

You would think so, but not necessarily. Years ago, I shot a doe with my longbow right at sunset, and I lost her trail. I found her the next day, still alive. Autopsy showed a cut 1.5" through her liver from a Bear Razorhead. Elapsed time, 17 hours.

[x101airborne]

Never had a deer run from a neck shot,, Just Slams em ; )
H/D


Oh, gosh, I have. When I first started hunting, my Dad made me use a 6mm remington in a ruger tang safety 77. I hit a rather large buck dead center of the neck. I saw the flesh blow out and the deer took off. I cried while I was tracking it and almost quit hunting because of it. I never found it and have never had the same results with a 30 caliber. That is how it goes, I guess. But I will never leave an animal to suffer because I wanted to use a small caliber weapon. Kill em ethically and quickly. How ever it works for you is great.
And by the way, I have taken neck shots with 7mm's and 30 cals and yep, it is just a bang, flop result.

[KCSO]

Waksupi that was for bullet wounds I don't have autopsy results for arrows, YET!

[45 2.1]

My preference.

Works most of the time, but not always. I've had three deer cover from 300 to 425 yards on me.... all shot with shotgun slugs (back when that was the ONLY option in my state) with their hearts completely destroyed (the part below your boolit hole would be about all that was left solid). Cast hollow points in handgun rounds do much better.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't do Texas heart shots so let's not go there on that one.........

For frontal, broadside or raking shots I prefer to envision a soccor ball low against the brisket and but the bullet through that soccor ball regardless of the angle. This shot takes out one or both legs on broadside shots and puts the bullet through the heart and thick part of the lungs. Additionally the shot is low enough that blood will exit the one or both holes instead of just filling up in the lungs. Since using that shot with appropriate cartridge/bullet/velocity combinations I have not lost and animal nor had one travel more that 30 - 40 yards before piling up.

I found, much to my chagrin, many years ago that the "classic" behind the shoulder shot does not anchor game. May damage less meat but when you lose a whole animal it kind of makes that a moot point......best to anchor the animal as quickly as possible.

Larry Gibson

[RugerFan]

Concerning livers shots, I once shot a whitetail buck in TX through the liver with an arrow. A scant blood tail petered out pretty quick. I was fortunate to find the deer by zig zagging through the woods after the dang thing had ran a good 300 yds. Conversely, my brother shot a bull caribou through the liver with an arrow and it stumbled a few steps and dropped dead.

[300savage]

I haven't had the chance to read all the posts so if I am repeating someone please forgive me. I truly feel though that it largely depends upon the terrain you are hunting in. Out west where I can watch a lung shot deer until he falls that is always my shot. In brush country I will sacrifice some shoulder meat for a dropped deer.

[dale2242]

I am a certified Hunter Ed instructor. We are certified by the Oregon Department or Fish and Game.
Hunter Ed used to be all about hunter safety.
Now we are teaching Safety as well as Hunter Ethics and Responsibility.
We recommend that ethical, responsible hunters take only broadside or direct frontal shots to the vitals area with a rifle and only broadside shots with a bow. The vitals area lies under and behind the shoulder of deer and elk. The vitals area on a deer is approximately 9" diameter on a deer and 12' on an elk. Not that tough a shot for a decent shooter with a rifle.
The vitals area has massive amounts of blood. A decent shot to this area will either knock the animal down right there or leave a good blood trail to follow. A decent shot to the vitals rarely ends in a long track.
Some will argue that a head or neck shot is the best shot. Remember this, the vitals area of a deer is as big as a paper plate. The brain of a deer isn`t much bigger than a tennis ball. If you have seen a deer's jaw shot off from a poorly placed head or neck shot you probably will not try one again. They will either die from infection or starve to death. When one shows up in a non hunters yard, it puts us in a pretty bad light.
Ask yourself which you can hit EVERY time. That is the shot every ethical and responsible hunter will take. Long story short, take the broadside shot to the vitals, that means heart and lung area....dale

[429421Cowboy]

I am a certified Hunter Ed instructor. We are certified by the Oregon Department or Fish and Game.
Hunter Ed used to be all about hunter safety.
Now we are teaching Safety as well as Hunter Ethics and Responsibility.
We recommend that ethical, responsible hunters take only broadside or direct frontal shots to the vitals area with a rifle and only broadside shots with a bow. The vitals area lies under and behind the shoulder of deer and elk. The vitals area on a deer is approximately 9" diameter on a deer and 12' on an elk. Not that tough a shot for a decent shooter with a rifle.
The vitals area has massive amounts of blood. A decent shot to this area will either knock the animal down right there or leave a good blood trail to follow. A decent shot to the vitals rarely ends in a long track.
Some will argue that a head or neck shot is the best shot. Remember this, the vitals area of a deer is as big as a paper plate. The brain of a deer isn`t much bigger than a tennis ball. If you have seen a deer's jaw shot off from a poorly placed head or neck shot you probably will not try one again. They will either die from infection or starve to death. When one shows up in a non hunters yard, it puts us in a pretty bad light.
Ask yourself which you can hit EVERY time. That is the shot every ethical and responsible hunter will take. Long story short, take the broadside shot to the vitals, that means heart and lung area....dale

I teach the same thing to kids in my Hunter Ed classes, usually there is a dad in the room that always claims he takes no other shot, but an explaination including the fact that it doesn't take much to turn a perfect brain shot into a jaw shot and a starving deer leaves no room to argue. I don't and won't take a head shot on game unless it is a finisher.
I just had to argue with my best friend and hunting partner when he said he was planning on getting good enough to fill his doe tag with a head shot at 500+ yards. I reasoned that a bullet drop estimation of less than even .5 MOA error at 500 yards would drop a brain shot into a jaw shot in a hurry, and that ended things quite quickly!

[Adam10mm]

No one told that to the large corn fed Michigan whitetail doe I shot, thru the liver, with RCBS 240 SWCGC, that piled up after 65 paces. That boolet took out two one inch diameter sapplings before hitting the deer.

Winelover
First I've heard of a quick kill from a liver shot.

[BruceB]

First I've heard of a quick kill from a liver shot.


Yeah.... and YOU are the one who posted, just last night "I have no interest in a humane kill."

[Gibbs44]

I have yet to take a deer with a boolit. I'm looking forward to it, just haven't done it. I'd say either option you've listed should work fine. I've read about some boolits fracturing instead of mushrooming, I'm sure some of the guys here can tell you about that. I can tell you when I do line up with my pistol it will be behind the shoulder, I'll take the little bit of wiggle room it affords. When using my .30-30 or .35, I'll be shooting for the shoulder.

Gibbs

[DougGuy]

If you shoot a well made cast boolit, and your weapon starts with a 4, it's doubtful you will need the boolit to expand, as it will cut a nasty golfball sized wound channel. Doubtful you will have to worry about fragmenting with a hard cast/wide maplat/flat nose boolit. All the deer I have lung shot with a .44 have gone down in less than 20yds. Several I took at less than 10yds dropped where they stood, when they are that close, I would be shooting from my treestand I will take high in the neck or head shot. I have yet to recover a boolit from one shot with the .44 magnum.

This year I am switching over to a .45 Colt for all my handgun hunting, with cast boolits. Although I may choose between a GC or PB boolit, my recipe for shot placement will stay the same. If I am in a stand, and it walks out so close I can count the ticks on it's ears, I will take a head/high neck shot. Other than that, lung shot, in one side out the other, it won't go far.

[TXGunNut]

Quickest kills I've seen take out the "top" of the heart, where all the major blood vessels are attached. A CNS shot is the only thing that may work better but critters with a good CNS hit sometimes lay there and twitch for some time. I like a broadside shot just behind the point of the shoulder on a deer, if facing will take a shot just to one side of the breastbone; I'll shoot a bit to the right if it's angled to my left, and vice versa. On a hog it's thru the shoulders, base of the skull (@ spine) or in the ear, never gotten a chest shot on a hog and the between-the-eyes shot is something I haven't had much luck with.

[Idaho Mule]

I think little girl just don't like liver. JW

[Adam10mm]

Yeah.... and YOU are the one who posted, just last night "I have no interest in a humane kill."
Excuse me if I don't get all spiritually involved like Ted Nugent with his stupid 10 minute deep thoughts and reflections about killing an animal. Most hunters on this and other forums want a quick, clean kill out of "respect" for the animal, so that's where I put my focus in answering the OP. I answered with my personal experiences with liver shot animals that they don't die quickly. If the OP wants it to die quickly, then a heart/lung is better than the liver in my experiences. My personal preference is for a lung shot as I like to eat the heart and liver and want to conserve as much meat as possible including those two organs. I don't shoot the lungs for a humane kill. That's the last thing on my mind. I don't have respect for the animal I'm killing and don't respect its life. If I have to eat, something has to die. When I slaughter and butcher animals on the farm, the headshot I make isn't for a humane kill, it's for selfish reasons because I have other things in life to do and a limited time to butcher animals for food. Quicker it dies, quicker I can get my butchering done and move onto the next job. Maybe I'm not wired like the rest of you. I can't make an emotional attachment toward an animal. It's an animal, not a human. They are not equals and are not to be treated as equals.

[Von Gruff]

I have liver shot one animal on one of my goat hunts and it did take another shot to finish it off. It wasn't a planed shot but the result of rifle or animal movment. The animal did not react to the hit like those who are shot forward of the diaphram where I prefer to have the shot land.

[runfiverun]

she don't like it.
I do like it, she would rather I make heart hash.
she has a thing against eating the tongue too.
shrug.

the link provided is pretty good showing how things are laid out inside animals.
the elk one is a little off [low] on the placement inside the animal but pretty close.

like everybody I have shots I prefer and shots I will take if that is what is presented.
deer are pretty amazing at how far they will travel with nervous system damage.
I remember my brother shooting a deer head on and tracking it by following the internal organs that were falling out the bottom of the open cavity.
then finally finding pin points of blood and finally tracking the foot prints.
it even backtracked it's own trail before it died.
there was nothing inside it except part of one lung and the heart in the front
and some intestine barely touching the ground in the back.
it took us almost 3 hours of tracking it across open ground and into a small wash..

[btroj]

I prefer a shot thru the heart-lung area. Pretty quick kill. Big target too.

I would never, by choice, take a head shot.

[DCM]

Around here the window the window of opportunity during firearms season has become very much like what R5R described early on in this thread, with wolves in the northern part of the state and CWD kill em all zones in the south.
Being that I am usually on public land I need a down right there shot whenever possible to prevent them from running off to private land or someone else claiming my deer on the public side.
I like neck shot when possible as I have never had a good neck roast and this destroys very little good meat.
Down right there does not always mean dead right there though so "more lead may be required" to humanely finish the job.
Your mileage and situation will likely vary.

[John L]

runfiverun: what link are you referring to?

[runfiverun]

the one in post #12

[Rattus58]

This coming year is my first deer hunt with CB with my 30-06 and 180gr GC boolit and was just wondering what the best placement would be using CB the classic heart lung shot or through the shoulder shot to pin em down?In my opinion, especially with lead bullets... right through the lungs does it every time.

[Bad Water Bill]

I remember my brother shooting a deer head on and tracking it by following the internal organs that were falling out the bottom of the open cavity.
then finally finding pin points of blood and finally tracking the foot prints.
it even backtracked it's own trail before it died.
there was nothing inside it except part of one lung and the heart in the front
and some intestine barely touching the ground in the back.
it took us almost 3 hours of tracking it across open ground and into a small wash..

Did the fork bend when you TRIED to eat that one?:kidding:

[reloader28]

I go with neck shots whenever I can. I like them the insta-drop.
When I have to , I'll use the heart/lung shot.

[Mr Humble]

When you are using a bullet that expands little at a moderate velocity, meat destruction, especially on a deer's shoulder is a non event. You might lost 4 pounds of meat.
When I hunt with "deer slugs" or heavy for caliber cast bullets, I always shoot through both shoulders. The animal is down on the spot and generally the wound is fatal right now. Neck shots are stupid as the spine is a small target and the chance of a lost animal or, at best, a long track, is high. A liver shot will kill a deer ..... eventually.
I have never read any experienced big game hunter suggest "liver shooting" any big game animal as a first choice.
I guess nobody buys and reads books on big game hunting anymore, instead trusting the internet as, we all know, everything written there is true.

[Griz44mag]

That boolet took out two one inch diameter sapplings before hitting the deer.
If I had done that, which I have not - EVER, I certainly would not be telling anyone about it.
That, IMHO, was a shot that should not have been taken.
Shooting through limbs or brush means you don't have a clear target.
It also means the odds of a deflection and a wounded, unrecoverable animal are very high.

[runfiverun]

I didn't even try eating any of that deer.
little girl took a shot at it first [her first time deer hunting] she misjudged the distance a bit and took a patch of hair off the chest right under the heart.
the poor thing run right over to where my brother was sitting.

[waksupi]

If I had done that, which I have not - EVER, I certainly would not be telling anyone about it.
That, IMHO, was a shot that should not have been taken.
Shooting through limbs or brush means you don't have a clear target.
It also means the odds of a deflection and a wounded, unrecoverable animal are very high.

Well, I have it done with a buck and a bear. The vertical cross hair covered a small lodge pole pine in both cases.

[reloader28]

Theres another internet myth. That you have to hit the spine of a deer if you shoot them in the neck. That is 100% untrue. I've seen MANY MANY deer shot in the neck, but only a couple that were hit in the spine. The trauma to the neck muscle is what drops the deer.

[winelover]

If I had done that, which I have not - EVER, I certainly would not be telling anyone about it.
That, IMHO, was a shot that should not have been taken.
Shooting through limbs or brush means you don't have a clear target.
It also means the odds of a deflection and a wounded, unrecoverable animal are very high.

I don't know where you hunt but very rarely do I get a shot that is totally unobstructed. Mature deer, by their very nature, avoid clearings. To bring home the venison, I aimed to miss a 3-4" diameter tree. At 20 yards, one inch saplings were a non-issue as demonstrated by the effectiveness of that 44 cast boolet. The few deer that I never recovered were all arrow shot.

Winelover

[HABCAN]

Use 'enough gun' as Ruark said, then aim to break the OFF shoulder. DRT.

[OnHoPr]

A lot of factors come into play with the OP. Generally speaking IMO the double lunger is the best. It depends on it you have tracking terrain such as leaves or pine needles, blueberry bushes, or mud & water. Also, it depends on as 357Maxium says "happiness is a game rich environment" and you can choose your game and shot or if your on heavily hunted public land and you might only see a couple of deer in the season, (take the shot!). Another point is the actual boolit and its construction and speed play a role in the decision. Private property lines or natural terrain can influence shot placement as well. Two years ago I was huntin on an eighty and tried to keep shot deer on the property. I had a doe and a couple of pups with her come in front of me about a hundred yards and she didn't offer me a good shot because her pups where always in the way and she looked in my direction and started to get nervous. She moved away from her pups and was facing me straight on with the left shoulder on about a 10 - 15 degree angle and I shot at the inside point of the left shoulder. She took off with her pups like I had missed. So I smoked a cig and then took a look. I found blood and tracked her easily on maple and oak leaves to about 20 yards off the property and dragged her back on and dressed her. She went a touch over a 100 yards. Later, while skinning and quartering, I had to throw that whole shoulder away, not even an ounce of edible meat, and her right back foot was SWOLLEN. I shot her with a 300 win mag with 68 gr of 4007ssc and a 165 gr Speer BT at a touch over 3000 fps and over 3000 fbs of energy. And I've seen PRB drop them about as quick as anything. In addition, I've shot a few liver shot deer with jwords and cast and none of them went 100 yds. So according to the animal, shot, and boolit who really knows.

[Mr Humble]

You shot a nursing doe with twin fawns, she died on land that was not yours and you actually admit to it on a public forum ?

Keep sucking on those cancer sticks ...... and BTW this is a CAST BULLET forum.

I never cease to be amazed at what passes for "hunting" with some people !

[TXGunNut]

I don't know if OnHoPr's doe was nursing the fawns or if they were weaned, that was his call. I help cull does on my brother's lease but I won't shoot a doe with a youngster in tow. My call, may not be sound management but during the regular season I shoot spikes and lone does.
As for crossing a fence to retrieve a downed game animal I will do that, and expect folks on the other side of the fence to do so as well. If asked I would help a neighbor retrieve a downed animal.
I'm a bit troubled by the use of j-words as well but can only assume this was before he saw the light or under other extraordinary circumstances.

[Rattus58]

This coming year is my first deer hunt with CB with my 30-06 and 180gr GC boolit and was just wondering what the best placement would be using CB the classic heart lung shot or through the shoulder shot to pin em down? I've never had any problems with game shot through the lungs... EVER. They are done for!

Aloha.. :cool:

[dale2242]

Once again speaking as a Hunter Ed instructor, we teach that shooting a doe with fawn/fawns in Oregon, with a doe tag, is legal but unethical.
Going onto private property to retrieve a wounded/dead animal is trespassing in Oregon which is illegal.
Take off your camo, leave your gun in the rig and contact the land owner. Explain that it is deer season (not everyone may know it), and explain what happened. If they will not allow you on their property call your local game warden and have him go with you back to the owner. He may be able to help you. You can not enter private property in Oregon without permission for any reason. If the owner refuses, tough luck for you.
All the more reason to make the killing shot in the vitals.....dale

[winelover]

In OnHoPr's defense, gun season in Michigan open's Nov. 15th. Not rare to be locked into winter weather. Fawn's should be able to fend for themselves by then. If not, they wont survive anyways. Michigan's bow season starts on Oct. 1st. In all the years I bowhunted, I can't recall seeing very many spotted fawns. Michigan's firearms regulations allow for any size anterless, as long as you have a permit. I prefer to shoot mature does, but sometimes it's hard to judge size within the time alloted.


Winelover

[reloader28]

If you go with a game warden to the land owner your basically garrenteed your animal.
If the land owner refuses the warden will nail them with a fine for wasting a game animal.

[dale2242]

We have the Game wardens talk to the people in our hunter Ed classes.
Up until this year is was wanton waste to not allow a hunter to get a wounded/dead animal from private property. Now they cannot make the land owner give up the deer.
The landowner cannot keep it unless they have a valid tag and give it the killing shot.....dale

[Mr Humble]

"If asked I would help a neighbor retrieve a downed animal. "

That's the key phrase. Nobody can tell if a fawn is still nursing or not, and according to THE standard reference "The way of the Whitetail", most will until Momma pushes them away.

Young deer have a much better chance of making it through any winter with Momma, as she will break trail, continue to nurse and fend off most predators. To suggest otherwise shows DNS about Whitetails as well as a disregard for hunting ethics 101.

Until you've seen a calf Elk standing by the gut pile of what was his Momma because some "hunter" killed Mom you can't really get it. That calf will be dead meat to Wolves, Yotes or a Bear. If we have a cow/calf tag we shoot the calf as that's far more humane than being pulled down an eaten alive.

Shooting any female with "pups" (where did that come from) is unethical and heartless.

Infofar as trespass goes, anyone on my ranch w/o written permission (WY law) gets arrested and fined a lot. Ask the for dummies from Texas who didn't know the laws, had no maps, no GPS and thought the absence of posted signs (not required in WY) allowed them to shoot a poor little 9" Antelope standing among my horses. Doubt they'll be coming back to WY anytime soon!

AGAIN: It's a CAST BULLET forum !!!! :takinWiz:

[Hogdaddy]

Well last (12) deer I've shot was Neck shots,, Not one went one step further ; ) PS Mr Humble were do you hunt, Not Key west for sure
H/D

[OnHoPr]

The episode happened in late November. Pups should have been weened. Does have milk 12 months a year. I have only seen one dry mature doe in my whole life. The area that I hunt the parcels range from 5 acres to 100+ acres with the general acreage of 10 to 40 acres, but there are a few larger. If you sit in the middle of a 40 and take a hundred yard shot and the deer runs a hundred yards, its getting pretty close to property lines. In forty years I have only done that circumstance three times. All three times I had blood trails marked from close to the shot to the animal. Now we can go off on all kinds of tangents here. The area which I hunted in this incidence is a TB DMA. Since the late 80's when TB was found in the area you could/can buy 1 to 5 permits a day. The insurance companies lobbyist didn't mind that problem. Now MI has CWD creeping into the state. Then you have the GM bureaucracies striving for monies and selling tags while promoting magazine cover bucks. Back before the 80's the farmers use to account for the first few rows of corn to crop damage. Now the management has gone in a different way because the farmers need their crops to keep there farms going because of the influx of produce from China, South America, and Mexico, etc. Henceforth, the availability of crop damage permits (culling) to the opinion of vast amounts. Then you have the USFS and USDA cutting and burning forest before they are even mature for whatever management reasons. Same way with the State and the state forest. Possibly similar problems to the pinion pine scenario west of the Mississippi overgrowing into the meadows that the elk graze on, along with free range cattle grazing. The politicians and their directors change every two, four, and six years with their management theories, while actual forest and game quantities take longer than that to grow, decline, or stabilize. Then you have the type of city folk that move to the rural areas and want to see GAME animals at their bird feeders with their influence. Back in the 80's I used to see a number of deer a day and 30 to 70 near the highway on the 40 mile drive back to camp and now I don't see a deer in a whole season driving back to camp or very few, (almost like the ammo shortage). If the general yearly concensus of the census of the deer heard is low, I will let a mature two and half year old doe walk if truly identified because she has the possibility of producing two fawns and will shoot a year and half doe. If the population is up a touch, I will target a big doe. That doesn't mean I am not looking for horns. Venison taste good. Etc., etc., etc. You never know it could be a long term plan for the anti's and skullduggery and land acquisition, (you can't do this type of activity in a lot of other countries).

[Rattus58]

Once again speaking as a Hunter Ed instructor, we teach that shooting a doe with fawn/fawns in Oregon, with a doe tag, is legal but unethical.
Going onto private property to retrieve a wounded/dead animal is trespassing in Oregon which is illegal.
Take off your camo, leave your gun in the rig and contact the land owner. Explain that it is deer season (not everyone may know it), and explain what happened. If they will not allow you on their property call your local game warden and have him go with you back to the owner. He may be able to help you. You can not enter private property in Oregon without permission for any reason. If the owner refuses, tough luck for you.
All the more reason to make the killing shot in the vitals.....daleJust curious.... since you bring up ethics... and I'm not trying to sidetrack this thread, but if you're teaching something as unethical, why is it legal?

Aloha.. :cool:

[dale2242]

Rattus58, We are all brought up with different ethics. We explain that it is legal.
Hunters Ed in Oregon is not only safe gun handling , it`s also teaching young people to be responsible and ethical hunters.
I`m sure you must be aware that only 5% of the population are hunters, 5% are avid anti hunters. The other 90% are on the fence.
By teaching ethics and responsibility we are trying to give the hunter a better image to the general public.
BTW. Do you think every law that is passed by our legislators is responsible and ethical?
Sorry, no I.....dale

[Rattus58]

Rattus58, We are all brought up with different ethics. We explain that it is legal.
Hunters Ed in Oregon is not only safe gun handling , it`s also teaching young people to be responsible and ethical hunters.
I`m sure you must be aware that only 5% of the population are hunters, 5% are avid anti hunters. The other 90% are on the fence.
By teaching ethics and responsibility we are trying to give the hunter a better image to the general public.
BTW. Do you think every law that is passed by our legislators is responsible and ethical?
Sorry, no I.....dale

I also teach Hunter Education here in Hawaii. If something is legal, the question is how can it be unethical? We get similar all the time, and if its legal, it by definition cannot be unethical. Sportsmanship. I hunt with a muzzleloader shotgun for birds. No dogs. One shot. Lots of competition in public hunting area. Question. Is it unethical to shoot a pheasant or quail on the ground? :grin:

[Adam10mm]

Once again speaking as a Hunter Ed instructor, we teach that shooting a doe with fawn/fawns in Oregon, with a doe tag, is legal but unethical.
Unethical why?

If the fawn has spots it's not legal to shoot. If the fawn doesn't have spots, whether it makes it through the winter has nothing to do with the doe. If it doesn't live through winter that is by its own accord.

[Adam10mm]

If something is legal, the question is how can it be unethical?
Ethics cannot be legislated. What is legal isn't always ethical and what is ethical isn't always legal.

[dale2242]

I`ve said all I`m going to on this matter......dale

[300savage]

No worries until someone starts trying to impose their own personal brand of ethics upon. Someone else, so if its legal who is anyone to be so arrogant and self rightious as to think they know better than another. That is what game laws are for, if you feel something needs to be changed then push the issue not your opinion.

[Griz44mag]

Is it unethical to shoot a pheasant or quail on the ground?
If someone does it on my groups lease, no, it is not illegal, however, that will be their last hunt on this property.
I've let a lot more potential kills walk away than shot, because of many reasons. UNETHICAL is a big reason.
The shot has to have 99+% certainty of a clean quick kill. For me, than means full broadside, both lungs and very likely the heart as well.
Tail or brisket shots, never.
Neck or head shots, only if they are very short and I have one of my super accurate rifles with me that I know I can place a clean shot in a quarter sized spot ensuring a clean kill.
Legal sets the standard, ethical sets the bar.
If you don't understand unethical, or the difference between the offspring of two dogs or of two deer, then you are not really a hunter.
Go where you need to for your own standard, you do anything unethical around me, one of us is leaving, immediately, guess that depends on where we are at the time.

[nanuk]

I would take one of the two fawns.

fawns make the best eating.

[TXGunNut]

I guess we're a little friendlier here in TX. When I hunted with an outfitter near Silverton he had a standing agreement with landowners on adjacent property to retrieve downed game, even a state park. It had to be down in sight of the fence and your rifle stayed on your side of the fence. Retrieving a downed animal is one thing, chasing a wounded animal all over the neighboring ranch is quite another. Leases can work the same way, good excuse to meet the guys on the next lease.
As for shooting does or cows with youngsters that's an easy call for me. I know the fawn or calf has way less than even odds of living thru the winter with mama around but chances drop a fair bit when they're on their own. I'll wait for a lone doe because she has either lost her fawn or is unable to reproduce, either way a good cull opportunity.

[Rattus58]

No worries until someone starts trying to impose their own personal brand of ethics upon. Someone else, so if its legal who is anyone to be so arrogant and self rightious as to think they know better than another. That is what game laws are for, if you feel something needs to be changed then push the issue not your opinion.I agree. Ethics are usually learned behaviors from mentors.

I think oftentimes that there is a blurred line between ethics and sportamanship. We try to refrain from the term unethical because we can't always define circumstance and unethical behavior is usually illegal as well. Something clearly legal, in my mind, should never be considered unethical... like my shooting birds on the ground... :grin:

[Mr Humble]

I love the "if it's legal it is, therefore, ethical." In many states, forcing your wife to have sex against her will is legal. Anyone who would argue it is ethical should be castrated asap. Shooting nursing females with their offspring in clear view is just so bad, it's beyond any reasonable defense.

I really am tired of hearing from some "Nimrod" wannabe who invades a cast bullet site to talk about gross behavior with a cannon shooting jacketed bullets.

Please go to one of those sites where they shoot baited deer out of houses on stilts at ranges so far the animal has no chance.

Do we have any moderators ?

[NVScouter]

Why shoot a doe with calves when they are a dime a dozen? Why shoot a spike when you can buy a doe/calf tag instead?
It may be legal but why not enjoy your time in the field and let the critters grow a bit before killing them?

[OnHoPr]

Pups, haven't you heard of regional slang in America? But, then I could have been meaning seals or, one of the those whose the father of my baby, on TV shows.
Don' elk start yarding up in the west during the wintering months in the west. Same thing happens in a lot of regions in the US with deer and elk, I am not sure of moose though. I have seen short of a bakers dozen of let us say yearlings with a single doe. I wonder how that happens?
As to weaponry, I use both cast and jwords. If I am watching a clear cut, power line, gully, small lake, or close property lines, etc., then I will use a weapon with associated ammo that I have to do the job IMO. A couple of muzzleloader seasons ago I shot a dry lone doe with a Lee 240 gr rnpb cast 67/33 PB/WW and it did a fine job. I was on a hill watching some pretty thick stuff below. I finally got a shot a took it. She could have had yearlings not fawns only 10 yards away from her and I would have never seen them.
Then there is the true (Teddy Roosevelt) style of conservation management. Where his kids use to hunt squirrels on the White House grounds. Not the regional bickering of management of the day.
Back to the OP the 180 gr cb out of the '06 with decent accuracy and functional style with the accommodating alloy placed in the lungs shall be adequate in most general hunting scenarios.

[300savage]

Onhopr, thank you for that hate free response. It is obvious that you are in a different area, and more important at a different place inside. My instinctive response is to fight, just like this gentleman. My wife's response is to pray. I have found fighting to be the easiest and most satisfying response by far. But I am slowly learning a better way, my wife's way, and your way. Thank you for being the example I needed in my life tonight.

[dk17hmr]

I believe this thread is about shooting for the heart/lungs or the shoulders......after reading the last 3 pages of responses I'm not sure.

It depends on what I am hunting where I try and shoot them. For antelope I will break them down with either a shoulder shot or if the situation is right a head shot. Seems if I lung an antelope they take off and the meat is terrible. If they drop the meat isn't bad.

I have shot more deer in the lungs than any place else, mainly because most of the deer I have killed were with arrows. The few I have killed with a rifle or muzzleloader get shot in the off side shoulder, usually means at least a lung hit as well as a shoulder hit. I prefer this shot because it pokes a hole in the lungs and if they do have enough to run its on 3 legs and they don't usually go very far.

Elk I like to take out the lungs and heart if possible depending on how close I am to camp or my truck. If I'm back in a couple miles and I have to pack them out I will shoot for the shoulder hopefully to put them on the ground where they are and not allow them to run deeper in.

The situation and the animal dictate where I will placing the bullet.

[Fishman]

When I see a doe with fawns during hunting season, I shoot the doe through the lungs first, then repeat as many times as possible until I run out of tasty targets or tags.

Ethics is definitely situation specific. Where I hunt in Texas, feeders are the norm. Pretty easy for fawns to get food and generally they just hang out with another doe and her fawn or the entire herd.

Those preaching to the unwashed masses would do well to be more humble.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Man did this posting go all over and around the topic.

Lungs right behined the shoulder curve, large area and can be made from most any direction, shot at almost all moving deer. For that shot look for a 50yds.-100yds.run. I would hollow point the cast bullets and see if they shot good enough to take hunting. Any shot that goes out the other side is wasted energy that can be used to drop the animal. But you also have to account for a heavy shoulder animal, one buck's weight is 110 lbs (dressed) is going to be easier to drop then a 185-200 lbs. dressed animal.

That all is nice to say and think about is defiantly is needed. But are you hunting in heavy brush, field, pipe line, or woods? Fast shooting, driven deer? I find it never works out, just the way it is planned.

Head shot, only if only shot.

Neck same only if only shot.

Heart too low for me but Okay.

High shoulder spinal ( back shot ) easy to misplace, will drop in tracks, I have and do use this shot for large deer I don't wish to track or run to posted ground.

Here are some of the deer shots placements, I recall being made. Over the years and hundreds of deer, we normally shot about 10-12 a year, Me and a few friends are drive masters, is the term I guess:

Neck shot, head shot, no tracking. A few misses I don't recall tracking any.

Shoulder bone (ball of shoulder shot) almost no tracking less then 100 yds. Just a note I recall one doe that was hit in shoulder a still managed to go about 75 yds , with the 300 mag 30 cal shot. In the heavy brush was very hard to find, in multiflora rose.

Heart shot almost no tracking less then 100 yds.

Lung , back of shoulder, normally hits the shoulder and or liver , almost no tracking less then 100 yds.

Liver shot, or if back to far stomach 300 yds. to 800 yds about half not found for use, jacket bullets normal 30-06 or something in that line up. Get in the pines or crabs apples , and they press to hard not listening. They normally get shot by an other hunter.

Gut or mid animal 200 yds.- to ?? only every fine the one's I shoot. Using a 150 gr. SP BT 30 Cal. about 3200 FPS. I have been lucky only have ever lost one deer and it was not a gut shot. As a group we have lost a large number of these deer, almost never fine then in usable condition. Some we never find.

Hind back legs, less then 100 yds. normaly a second well placed shot, finishes the job.

Be safe !!

[dk17hmr]

.......... Any shot that goes out the other side is wasted energy that can be used to drop the animal.....

Lung shots generally don't drop an animal on the spot your going to need to track and animal two holes that are leaking blood is a lot better than one hole. You will end up wasting a lot of energy trying to find a deer with one hole in it. Just my thoughts on "wasted energy"

[Rattus58]

Lung shots generally don't drop an animal on the spot your going to need to track and animal two holes that are leaking blood is a lot better than one hole. You will end up wasting a lot of energy trying to find a deer with one hole in it. Just my thoughts on "wasted energy"

I shoot .452 and .578 conicals.... and I've shot several with a .504/.505. I've shot several in the head, one in the neck... and yes they do fall immediately... well almost immediately.. the one doe I shot in the neck.. stood there looking at me long enough for me to reload... (about 20 seconds) and as I raised my rifle to shoot again... she fell over stiff legged like a felled tree... Lung shots run... usually... and they usually somersault over dead and likely as well in my case... walk away dead and fall over and keep sleep walking... There aint a lung shot survived nor run far enough away to not be found within minutes.

I shoot big conicals.. some flat nosed, others not... flat nose in my opinion are superior.... but a pointed .58 minie doesn't seem to matter.

Aloha... :cool:

[Rattus58]

I'd like to correct one thing I sayed previously.. there was a mouflon I shot that even though drilled through the lungs, ran for about 300 yards before expiring... on a road... :grin:

Aloha... :cool:

[Griz44mag]

two holes that are leaking blood is a lot better than one hole.
I'll go along wholeheartedly with DK on that. The faster all that blood leaks out, the faster they drop, and the less mess you find inside when you gut the animal.
Little hole going in, at least twice that size coming out.

[Griz44mag]

A fawn shot now will indeed make a tasty meal.
The same animal shot two years from now will feed the family for a month or more.
Instant gratification generally comes with a future price tag.

[Fishman]

A fawn shot now will indeed make a tasty meal.
The same animal shot two years from now will feed the family for a month or more.
Instant gratification generally comes with a future price tag.

That's true in a lot of places but not in our Hill Country where you need a brush guard on your truck if you drive after dark, and it ain't for the brush! :)

I only shoot doe fawns though. The ranch owners get mad if you let any get away. Best to have a pile or you won't get invited back. They need as many does shot as possible.

And to everyone going "***?" Yeah, it was a culture shock to me too when I moved here.

Every one through the ribs while they vacuously chewed corn under a feeder. None have gone further than about 75 yards. The vast majority with "magnums" and jacketed bullets as that's what has been required. All processed by my family and very tasty.

[Mr Humble]

Several observations:

1. This thread has gone down the slippery slope of people who don't hunt with cast bullets. We have 800 yard rifle shooters, archers, baiting "hunters" and who knows what comes next ....... David with his sling ?

2. There appear to be real hunters who know something about the ethics of hunting as well as animal anatomy.

3. There also appears to be some who will shoot any animal, anytime, anywhere and hope for the best.

4. Many of category 3 types hail from "W" country and, as on most other sites we find them, seem to exist in a world with a different hunting ethic than shared by most of the rest of us. That may be a result of having to pay for trespass rights, the large number of "shoot em' behind the fence" operations, the common use of baiting and the absence of public land to hunt on.

In my own limited experience (in Wyoming) with perhaps a dozen hunters (obviously non-resident) from the Lone Star state, the attitude has been that they paid the big bucks for a WY non-resident license (very true) and therefore were entitled to pretty much do as they pleased. Little things like maps, GPSs, trespass rules and respect for folks trying to keep them out of trouble were not high on the list. Killing something was paramount ...... not the hunting experience.

IMHO, it would be best if this thread were shut down as it is imparting little useful information to cast bullet hunters and spreading a lot of what my horses leave in the pasture. (head shooting, 800 yard shots, hunting with arrows and jacketed bullets, shooting game over baits, killing Bambi's mother (or Bambi) and so on.

The great thing about this site, compared to many others, is that it is NOT populated with macho chest thumpers who turn every discussion into a "mine is bigger than yours" rant.

Let's keep it that way. Thanks!

[Adam10mm]

Baiting is a hunting method and isn't a modern tactic either. I don't understand the resentment for those that choose that method. I don't use it, I prefer to track and stalk, but won't judge someone just because they choose to bait.

[300savage]

Mr humble on second thought I think I am just going to ask my wife to pray for you, I ain't there yet.

[NVScouter]

Well while I don't mind shooting critters under feeders since I've seen why its done. However that isn't hunting. Neither is the guy with th built in shooting bench he shoots his deer from. Top that with pen razed animals and gettIng out od a truck with your bipod and buckskins while the herd comes over for a treat. It's harvesting and using a resource.

As has been said though that's not the subject line. I always aim for the heart it gives me flex room since hunting and shooting are miles a part.

[Fishman]

I had a much more directed comment but the moderators saw fit to delete it and that is fine. I was blunt to make sure the correct person got my message, and perhaps that offended someone's sensibilities.

I've been an active member of several enthusiast forums during the last 15 years. One thing I have notice is that thread drift occurs, much like a few friends talking around a campfire, or BS'ing at the range. In those situations, it would be a rare breed who would complain about people not sticking to the original topic and then request that the entire conversation be shut down. If that occurred, I would conclude that the person was lacking in certain critical social graces, particularly if they weren't even the one who started the conversation.

Let's keep Cast Boolits a civil and welcoming place for us to hang out. I'm willing to admit that perhaps I got a bit testy on this since I don't like being called out when I thought we were just having a fun discussion. I apologize for misdirecting the OP's topic.

[Rattus58]

I had a much more directed comment but the moderators saw fit to delete it and that is fine. I was blunt to make sure the correct person got my message, and perhaps that offended someone's sensibilities.

I've been an active member of several enthusiast forums during the last 15 years. One thing I have notice is that thread drift occurs, much like a few friends talking around a campfire, or BS'ing at the range. In those situations, it would be a rare breed who would complain about people not sticking to the original topic and then request that the entire conversation be shut down. If that occurred, I would conclude that the person was lacking in certain critical social graces, particularly if they weren't even the one who started the conversation.

Let's keep Cast Boolits a civil and welcoming place for us to hang out. I'm willing to admit that perhaps I got a bit testy on this since I don't like being called out when I thought we were just having a fun discussion. I apologize for misdirecting the OP's topic.

I have absolutely no idear what happened... but yer fergiven... :grin:

[jp99]

Never had a deer run from a neck shot,, Just Slams em ; )
H/D

I concur, I always go for upper neck myself. My results have been either they drop dead, or I missed. no wounded deer getting away

Regards JP99

[Griz44mag]

That's true in a lot of places but not in our Hill Country where you need a brush guard on your truck if you drive after dark
OUR Hill Country?
Bull Chips.
Tell that to someone from New Jersey, not a real Texan.
I was born in Texas 61 years ago, raised on a ranch, and have lived on farms, ranches and in cities from Dumas to Conroe, currently residing in Austin.

The ranch owners get mad if you let any get away
Double bull chips.
A managed ranch will run you off and blacklist you for such irresponsible behavior. Older does are harvested in numbers when populations get unbalanced, not fawns.
The doe fawns are the future breeders, the buttonheads are future trophy fees. The middle age does are the current suppliers of the next generation of revenue.
The only ranchers that could possibly want fawns killed are the slicks from the Eastern cities who moved to the country and don't want their pretty flowers munched on.

[Recluse]

My shot placement depends upon what (game) I'm hunting, what angle of shot I have, what firearm and round I'm hunting with, and finally, my ability.

:coffee:

[Fishman]

Griz, that is deer management philosophy that has resulted in the overpopulation we see everywhere in the hill country unless a severe drought has come along and knocked the population back. Unlike your in-your-face response, I would respectfully say that you haven't been paying attention lately.

Here is a common situation: The Texas wildlife biologist surveys a ranch and recommends that ten bucks be taken and 65 does. The ranch manager urges the lease hunters to shoot some does but by the end of the season, they've only killed three bucks and one doe.

The ranch manager is concerned. This is the third year in a row that they've not even come close to shooting all of the does, and protein feeders cost money to run. He makes a few calls and assembles a hunting party with one mission, kill all the does they can. The ranch has MLD permits, so the hunters don't even have to use their tags. Young, old, as long as it has a slick head, the instructions are simple, shoot it.

That is why i say that hunting ethics is situation specific.


OUR Hill Country?
Bull Chips.
Tell that to someone from New Jersey, not a real Texan.
I was born in Texas 61 years ago, raised on a ranch, and have lived on farms, ranches and in cities from Dumas to Conroe, currently residing in Austin.

Double bull chips.
A managed ranch will run you off and blacklist you for such irresponsible behavior. Older does are harvested in numbers when populations get unbalanced, not fawns.
The doe fawns are the future breeders, the buttonheads are future trophy fees. The middle age does are the current suppliers of the next generation of revenue.
The only ranchers that could possibly want fawns killed are the slicks from the Eastern cities who moved to the country and don't want their pretty flowers munched on.

[MT Gianni]

Do we have any moderators ?
Yes we do. What we do not have is insults or cursing, just a difference of opinion which is what we strive for as it increases thought.

[Mr Humble]

Done with this thread as it has almost nothing to do with the sites avowed purpose.

I believe baiting is also illegal in MT.

Brush guards are for brush, Elk/Moose guards are not "Ranch Hand" junk.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/bd0a8c15.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/rocketcity1/media/tororeelmower18/bd0a8c15.jpg.html)

[300savage]

At one time I was arrogant enough to think that hunting from a blind over bait had nothing to do with hunting. Coming from an area of the country where you can see for miles and a spotting scope and the best binos money can buy were the tools of the trade. And then I moved to a place where corn and cameras were the norm. It was a major ego adjustment to say the least. I have slowly and yet surely come to respect why it is done this way so many places. When you can finally let go of your eletist attitude and appreciate how much work, time and effort so many put into this method it is obvious it is every bit as challenging as any hunt .
Of course there are slob hunters here as there are everywhere. But then there are many who have as fine a set of ethics and as high an appreciation for their game as I have seen anywhere.
Paying to come hunt someone else's high fence game where you have no sweat equity invested does not impress me much however. I am still hardheaded enough to think you personally need to earn whatever you take through sweat, effort and commitment.

[Fishman]

- And he gets up, throws his coffee in the fire, and stomps off to his tent mumbling to himself. :)

Slightly off topic, but I like the elk guard. They weigh a bit more than the 60 lb whitetail around here.



Done with this thread as it has almost nothing to do with the sites avowed purpose.

I believe baiting is also illegal in MT.

Brush guards are for brush, Elk/Moose guards are not "Ranch Hand" junk.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/bd0a8c15.jpg (http://s1186.photobucket.com/user/rocketcity1/media/tororeelmower18/bd0a8c15.jpg.html)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Brush guard ... Ranch guard ... Zombie strainer ... Just different terminology to me ... ;) Just means your trying to protect the front of your vehicle ...

Back on topic (sorta!)



You get this up past 65 mph ... And place it squarely on the shoulder of a deer ... It will go down right there!















http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/ZombieCatcher.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnTVT/media/ZombieCatcher.jpg.html)


:)

[300savage]

Mr humble your *** is toast now.. i talked to my wife and you are on at least a couple prayer lists. otta be feelin the love in your life any time now, you can thank me later. Or better yet just pray for me back I probably need it worse than you

As for the OP, anytime you shoot anything in the liver as opposed to the heart and or lungs you have screwed up plain and simple. Also shooting for the neck or head is for novices or wanna b snipers, hunters put em in the vitals and that means , yes,, heart and or lungs, or if you are shooting dangerous game then shooting for the CNS or to break down structure not so much so they can't get awa but so they can't get to u.

[Harter66]

I live in a region where you get 1 tag a yr ,period,by lottery draw . It comes it comes down to ''do I put in for groceries or a trophy'',followed by''how far do I want to drag/carry/etc said trophy?''.

Our law clearly states ''The hunter WILL make every resonable effort to recover ANY game animal''.

As a rule,there are exceptions, if an animal goes across a fence out here nobody gets too excited. Exception being tracking ol'3 leg to the Jon Deere 100' from the house and I expect there'd be plenty of excitement if 1 took anything short of a record eclipsing animal out of a farm/ranch herd. Baiting is prohibited ''beyond normal agricultural use/pourpose''.

''A legal handgun must fire a centerfire cartridge of 24 caliber w/a case length equale to or greater than the Remington 44 Magnum. '' ''A legal centerfire rifle must be 22 caliber or larger have 2 inch or greater OAL and carry 1000 lb ft of energy at 100 yd.'' A 24'' 223 loaded to the gills w/55gr BTSPs makes the cut w/a deference loaded 350 RNHP (by Remington) 45-70 in a Marlin 18'' ported Guide gun is touch and go gun by gun raw numbers say it comes up short.

Because of all of the above it is important to ruin as little as possible so the heart /lung is really the best I've seen deer killed clean an not so much from 50-350 yds ''boiler housed'' and it's rare for them to go more than a few yards. Cartridges from 22-250 to 25/270/30-06' and the kid that got excited and shot 125yds w/a 223 coyote load,not pretty but groceries not on my list of things to do/see again.

Last year I shot a PP'd 200 gr pointy-ish (.9 flat nose) at 1900 fps cast of 75/25 ww/1-20 water dropped boolit . It left a wound equal to the trusted JPJ (jacketed projectile) used before my enlightenment. It quartered from low and behind on the left shoulder and exited high in front and high on the right shoulder. That 1 went about 20 yrds, 1 jump piled up in a heap at the bottom of the hill.

I've seen a deer boiler housed at 50yd or less w/an 06',it was close enough to see the hole , it just stood there even after the blood quit pumping out the backside, even as I walked toward it at 10 ft it colapsed and had a high neck/low head pistol finish. Lapse time seemed like an hr and a half but was probably 45 seconds.

My cast boolit worked as well as my JPJ . If I have any choice at all I'll boiler house them every time. If I have an antlerless tag I'll take a white face if there's 1 handy over a producing deer.

[Recluse]

This has been an enlightening and valuable thread--it's added nicely to my Ignore List.

Interestingly enough, Mr. Humble isn't on it because I pretty much agree with him, even though he has an erection for Texans--but I'd suspect the folks who've soured him so bad are what we call "citiots" down here. They sour me as well.

I was stationed at Hill AFB in northern Utah back in the late 70's early 80's and remember my first Utah deer hunting experience. I would respectfully submit to Mr. Humble that it wasn't Texans who were responsible for the slaughter we witnessed up there--it was city folks from Denver, Salt Lake City, all points west in California, Las Vegas and elsewhere.

All the retailers up there used to offer huge prizes for best racks, best B&C, etc etc.

The wholesale slaughter I witnessed up in the Wasatch Mountains was beyond my comprehension at the time. In fact, it soured me on ALL hunting for years. I saw more gut-shot deer, deer with a hind leg all but blown off, spine shots. . . I saw does shot, I saw bear shot, I saw dogs shot. . . if it moved or made it sound, the citiots were shooting at it.

Deer season in Utah back then was exactly three days, if I recall correctly. Might've been four, but I remember Friday morning looking like the start of the Daytona 500 when the sun came up what with all the hunters racing up the roads into the mountains. Less than an hour later, the shooting started. Sounded like Beirut that we'd just come back from.

The vast majority of shots I make on ANY game animal are in the heart/lung area. Sometimes, be it because of brush or angle of shot or position of the animal, a neck shot or even a head shot is what you get. If that's what it is, then that's what I take. Fact is, I know my ability, I know my rifles, I know how they shoot and I know my ammo. If I can't get a clean kill, then I don't take the shot.

But I guess that makes me a wannabe or a sniper wannabe or whatever someone else said about such shots.

*Shrug*

:coffee:

[runfiverun]

seein as how it was me that made the liver shot comment that started all this I guess i'll make one more comment.

J.D.
I started hunting in Utah in 1977 seeing as that was where I lived at the time.
they had so many out of state hunters during that time period, and so many deer were taken that the herd numbers still have not recovered.
then the winter of 83-84 was so bad it put the final nail in the coffin.
the whole state is now a draw or don't hunt state.
I had quit deer hunting long before the draw system was implemented, I didn't even own a deer hunting rifle from 84 to about 2005.
partially because I was never 'home' to hunt, and there was no reason to go if I was.

nowdays move over to the rifle/meeker area of Colorado and you will see nothing but full hotels, restaurants, and grocery stores with out of state plates, and the same insanity during the deer season.

it is more a study in human nature rather than a geographical oddity..

[Griz44mag]

123,
That's not a brush guard, or a deer catcher, that's a Datsun Deflector! It will work equally well on Honda, Hundai, Kia, Nissan, Yugo or other similar critters...
:D
Fish, If your :"ranch manager" has allow a population to get that out of proportion, it's not a managed ranch or herd. It's irresponsible or ignorant management, pure and simple. I hunted several ranches "Frost" and "The Dome" ranches SW of Abilene for several years, management there also used the TPWD biologists. When the harvest - population numbers were set, no bucks under 10 points/4 years were allowed to be shot until the does were controlled. The population ratios got under control really fast. Once they are in balance, it takes very little effort to keep them there. It takes years of bad management to get a population as far out of whack as you have indicated. It also takes several years of good management to get it back right again.

[RoyEllis]

....... Sometimes, be it because of brush or angle of shot or position of the animal, a neck shot or even a head shot is what you get. If that's what it is, then that's what I take. Fact is, I know my ability, I know my rifles, I know how they shoot and I know my ammo. If I can't get a clean kill, then I don't take the shot.

But I guess that makes me a wannabe or a sniper wannabe or whatever someone else said about such shots.

*Shrug*

:coffee:

Eggsackly!!! When it's the only clean shot available, I'll take the neck shot, but I never shoot at what I don't know in my heart I can hit 100% of the time. I know the range my weapon and I are capable of hitting a tennis ball every time without fail, (be it bow, pistol or rifle in my hand) that's my max "will shoot range". Guess like Recluse, after over 1/2 century I'm still a novice or wannabe sniper too.
My personal thought....if you can't make a killing neck shot then either A. you're trying to shoot beyond your ability, or B. you just flat out lack any shooting ability. But that's just my idiotic opinion.

[TXGunNut]

That is why i say that hunting ethics is situation specific.-Fishman


Agreed. I'm a guest on a lease where the paid hunters are after trophies so they often don't shoot the deer that need to be shot to benefit the herd. I'm a pretty fair chef but I can't figure out a way to prepare horns so I'm all about shooting healthy deer without headgear. As I've mentioned elsewhere I won't generally shoot yearlings or nursing does but have participated in TPWD management hunts where that was encouraged.
I often hunt from a blind, sometimes feeders are involved and yes, I prefer to hunt comfortably these days. I know my rifle, my scope, my rounds and my game. This allows me to take high-percentage shots that kill quickly and cleanly. A DRT deer (or hog) in one sendero allows me to possibly (after things settle down) drop another deer or hog in another sendero without getting out of the stand. Once my cooler is full I'm camp cook or maybe I'll sit in a stand and enjoy watching the wildlife.
Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? Yes. Should I kill more antlerless deer? Yes. I do the best I can but I won't shoot more than I can eat or wish to process and give away.

[Fishman]

Griz it isn't "my ranch manager", it's most of them. Oftentimes the only requirement for being a ranch manager is the ability to say "yessir" to whatever the ranch owner wants done. A lot of times that means keeping the lease hunters happy. It takes a lot less time than you think for a population to get imbalanced and as you said, a long time to fix it.

I am not defending the approach. It's just the reality I find myself dealing with since I can't afford a lease and I can only bowhunt up north once a year. What can I say, I like venison. Apparently, most leasees do not.

I always go for a double lung, whatever launching platform I have with me at the time.

[300savage]

Nothing like finding dead deer with jaws shot off or throats blown out to give a person a new appreciation of head and neck shooters. Yep its impressive to say the least, and makes wasting a little shoulder meat seem like a pretty good idea. But hey that's just me, and no reflection on all of the folks who know exactly where their bullets are going every single time. Wish we could just train all those dang deer to keep their heads still.

[Griz44mag]

it is more a study in human nature rather than a geographical oddity..
RUNFIVERUN,
Sadly I think it is a symptom of overpopulation. There are just too dang many of us. Too many that want to enjoy our wild roots, and way too few places left to do it.
And those fewer and fewer place that are left have discovered that it's worth a lot of money to cater to the few who have no access to those limited resources. "Hunters" )used loosely) from places like Texas that have almost no decent public land to hunt on, flock to other states just to be able to hunt anything bigger than a prairie dog.
It's not likely to change much except for the prices they pay.

[Recluse]

J.D.
I started hunting in Utah in 1977 seeing as that was where I lived at the time.
they had so many out of state hunters during that time period, and so many deer were taken that the herd numbers still have not recovered.
then the winter of 83-84 was so bad it put the final nail in the coffin.


I took my discharge in spring of '83. I heard about the bad winter that hit the region later that year. We had bad floods in spring of '82 due to the excessive snowfall and resulting melt-off.

My folks taught me that if you're not going to eat it, don't shoot it. The (obvious) exceptions were predators and varmints. Fishing was the same way--catch and release, except for carp and other invasive, damaging species. But even if you leave carp away from the water, the buzzards and varmints and scavengers will feed off of them.

The slob hunting I saw in Utah infuriated me--all over trophy racks. To this day I've never hunted for trophy and never will.

:coffee:

[300savage]

Not all trophy hunters are slob hunters, they are just trying to overcome a lack of size somewhere.
Or just an imagined lack.

[reloader28]

Nothing like finding dead deer with jaws shot off or throats blown out to give a person a new appreciation of head and neck shooters. Yep its impressive to say the least, and makes wasting a little shoulder meat seem like a pretty good idea. But hey that's just me, and no reflection on all of the folks who know exactly where their bullets are going every single time. Wish we could just train all those dang deer to keep their heads still.




Its pretty obvious that those hunters couldnt shoot worth a ****. In my opinion they had no business owning a rifle.
I take neck shots all the time and swear by them. Maybe I practice too much because the neck is my by far prefered target.

[nanuk]

I took my discharge in spring of '83. I heard about the bad winter that hit the region later that year. We had bad floods in spring of '82 due to the excessive snowfall and resulting melt-off.

My folks taught me that if you're not going to eat it, don't shoot it. The (obvious) exceptions were predators and varmints. Fishing was the same way--catch and release, except for carp and other invasive, damaging species. But even if you leave carp away from the water, the buzzards and varmints and scavengers will feed off of them.

The slob hunting I saw in Utah infuriated me--all over trophy racks. To this day I've never hunted for trophy and never will.

:coffee:

what ^he^said

if the only deer standing there had a huge rack, I'd shoot it, but I seldom if ever pass on an easy meat shot on a smaller deer.
my favourites are a forkhorn/spike buck, or a yearling doe/fawn

[beefie]

You are quite wrong about the liver shot. All the blood in the body is pumped thru the liver. Poke a hole thru the liver, and they bleed out quite quickly. Faster than they run out of oxygen if you only hit one lung, that much is certain. There is no reason to risk the deflection of the bullet that is possible with a shoulder hit.

[waksupi]

I dunno, I put a Bear Razorhead through a deer liver. It was still alive when I found it 17 hours later.

[303Guy]

My understanding is a liver shot needs to blow the liver. That's from my own observations which isn't enough to get more than just an impression. The few liver shots I took were bang flop and internal bleeding was massive. I might take a head shot if the critter is looking straight at me and is close enough to 'guarantee' a hit and that would be real close. I'd like to know more about neck shots. I've never tried one and just don't feel confident to do so.

[Swamp Rat]

If possible I prefer to go through the brain or the spinal cord as close to head as possible. But hitting the spinal cord always drops them where they are even if behind the shoulders. No tracking required.

[NLS1]

Wow, this thread was.....different. Some of you sure tried to save it, and for that I am grateful, others, not so much.....
Still in shock maybe, not sure what to say.....:)
Dan

[300savage]

Best stay on the porch, its a jungle out here.

[DougGuy]

+1 on the heart/lung just behind the shoulder or right through the shoulder. Depends on how good the shot is.

Would not take a liver shot. I have taken many neck shots at close range and they are instantly dead, before their knees buckled but you must hit the spine and not shoot below it.

I hit one with a Foster slug from a 500A Mossberg and it quartered in from the front, cut all the plumbing off the top of the heart and slammed it to the ground in it's tracks. It hit the ground SO fast it bounced. Then stuck it's head up to see what the noise was.. True story, first buck I ever killed, still have the slug, it looks like a coke bottle cap with the hollow point punched all the way through. A lead life saver if you will, I found it in the gutpile.

[Mr Humble]

Well, I had to get in MY last word. This is a great site and this is the dumbest thread on it.

It a'int rocket science. Sounds like everyone here is presented with the TV show deer who stands broadside and waits for your five minute conversation with the cameraman.

If you insist on shooting deer with a small bore (anything under 40 caliber) with cast bullets, then make em' hard and break the animal down by breaking major bones.

If you are a smart cast bullet deer hunter, you use a 45-70 with a fairly soft 330 gr Gould hollow point. Break em' down or make sure it gets into the boiler room. Chances are you'll have 2 holes and a dead deer at the end of a large blood trail.

Neck shots and brain shots are for idiots. the target is tiny and the chance of a lost animal far outweigh your being too lazy or unaccomplished to track a deer 50 yards or so.

When I lived back East, I killed one or more deer every year with a bow, handguns, muzzle loader and mostly shotguns. Started with a smoothbore Model 12 and Forsters, ended up with a browning rifled A Bolt that would put three sabots in a playing card @100 yards.
Started in 1956 and left NY in 1999, do the math.

When it's slow (deerslug/45-70) it needs to be big. Slow and big kills very well. Forget all this fancy stuff, put em on the ground with two broken shoulders or a busted pelvis (yes, it might take a followup shot) or send one through the boiler room from any direction and your freezer will be full. IME, over 50 Whitetails got the 12 bore treatment, never lost one and a blind man could have found any of them.

Even out here in Wyo where all the experts say you need a 600 yard magnum, I'd be happy hunting (HUNTING) anything with that 12 bore A Bolt and its 1-4 Leupold filled with today's incredible sabots. Managed to kill a speedgoat @ 90 odd paces with an iron sighted 45 caliber percussion Whitworth replica, my best Elk @ 18 paces with an 1809 61 cal British Baker Military flinter and a nice Mulie doe with a Colt New Service 45 Colt Target model at 25 yards. All were slow and big (500 gr, 1.2 ounces and 250 gr). I'm sure any Elk within 200 yards (most in WY, MT and ID are killed at 125 yards or less) would be dead meat if I still had that A Bolt.

Now lets get back to cast boolits. Just picked up a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400. I know Hornady's jacketed bullets are .410 vs .411 for the 405 WRA, 400 Whelen and 400 H&H. I'm betting my Big old NEI 411-350-GC-DD #225a will work as well in the 450/400 as it has in the other three. The 450/400 is the same ballistics wise as a 400 Whelen, just older and rimmed. A 350 gr large metplat .411 wheelweight bullet rumbling along at 1800 fps is "big medicine".

[300savage]

Actually very well said. For what its worth I can't disagree with anything you said.

[DougGuy]

I can. That's a pretty condescending post to those of us who CAN shoot accurately enough to take a head/neck shot. For what it's worth, NONE of the head/neck shots I took needed tracking, they dropped in the same shadow they were standing in. They never took ONE STEP. I can't help it if YOU can't take a head/neck shot and put the animal down where it stands, but feel free to pass judgement on those of us who can.

[300savage]

Its not condencending, its the voice of experience. Just keep hunting and one day your opinion will change. There are many on this forum Iassure you who shoot as well as you or better, myself iincluded who have learned the hard way, neck and head shots are stupid.. you date yourself in your experience advocating them I assure you.

[Mr Humble]

Well said. I rather doubt the head and neck man has a US Army Expert badge with 4 bars, has been a member of several military rifle and pistol teams (no bench rest), nor has been a hunter since General Eisenhower was our President.
There is not ONE responsible writer on big game hunting who advocates head and/or neck shots on deer. Once you have to "finish off" an emaciated cow Elk that some dolt shot off its lower jaw (no doubt and head/neck shot expert) you might see the light. Have someone shoot off your lower jaw or the front half or your face or put a bullet through a non vital area of your neck and see how well you do surviving with no medical care. You (as that poor Elk) will be in agony, unable to eat, tortured by insects, subject to infection and probably pulled down and eaten alive by wolves. Real hunters respect the animals they hunt and do everything possible to ensure a clean kill. The best way to do that is the same as killing people... "center of mass". Suggest you but some books by real big game hunters and stop trying to be Annie Oakley. What you advocate is stupid, poor sportsmanship, irresponsible and reveals a lack of game anatomy that borders on criminal. Where ever you are, stay there, we value or wonderful big game too much to have dummies like you out destroying our animals and giving all hunters a bad name. Hunting is not about what is possible (like the 1000 yard Elk wounders), it is about what is right.
Try golf, it's a mindless pursuit where the only victims are other fools chasing a little white ball around what should be a farm or woods and wasting millions of gallons of fresh water that should be a fish's home.:killingpc[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[300savage]

Dude your nothing if not subtle,, damned though if I am not starting to like you despite your obvious arrogance. Or perhaps because of it.

[awhiteha]

Been hunting Wy, Ut, Az, Ca, NM & Co. for 30 years and most of my kills has been neck shots. I guess I'm the idiot who brings venison and elk meat home every year. Wife never complains. I would think that if one has the confidence to anchor an animal, more power to em. 3 years ago I shot an elk on the La Sals in the lungs only to find it again... to anchor it with a neck shot. I think it's all about practice and having enough confidence. I don't want waste meat so if I think I can I will. I have also passed up many shots because I wasn't comfortable or too far too carry the meat and hike back.


In my hunts, I also discover more and more game, especially elk, with just the neck cut off and the whole body still there. Some trophy hunters only want horns, so yhey do this. Sick! Sick!

[DougGuy]

You two guys can go have a love affair sounds like one brewing anyway, but I do not engage in the name calling and I find it reprehensible that you do over a simple point of discussion on a public forum. Your conduct makes you look about 2" tall and if you had 4 bars on your medal, they'd be dragging the ground instead of hanging on your chest.

Anybody that had ONE bar on an expert's medal would be capable of any shot that was presented to them. End of discussion.

If we all hunted by your rules, anything less than a 375 H&H would be outlawed for deer hunting, and if you couldn't stick your finger in the bore, it ain't suitable to hunt with.

A LOT of us hunt back East because that's where we live. Woods are full of deer. Shots are CLOSE RANGE. I take most of my pistol shots out of my treestand, at less than 20yds. Why? Because I go where it's thick and pick a good tree, and deer have a habit of walking right under my stand. With a scoped rifle or shotgun, they are too close to see what part of brown is in the field of view. Head and neck shots with a pistol are COMMON on my hunts. The freezer has deer in it. NONE were jaw shots and NONE walked away wounded.

You can say what you want. I take shots that I am confident in.

Mr. Humble you are not. Mr. self-centered and full of it, you ARE.

[Trey45]

If this thread degrades any farther into a name calling :takinWiz: match I'll close the thread. There are other ways of getting your point across than condescending and belittling posts.

[300savage]

Not saying your stupid, but that does not change the fact that head or neck shooting is immature and irresponsible.

[Trey45]

So I'm just posting to the wind here apparently.... Thread closed. Savage, I'll be contacting you via pm.