WEIRD FLYERS from group, any ideas?

[Float Pilot]

I have tried several loads and bullet weights from my 1903-A3. The best so far seems to be a 162 grain (with lube and gas check installed) with 24-25 grains of AA-5744.

BUT, I keep having these weird groups where three holes are touching or almost touching at 100 yards with two bullets making holes a few inches away... I have repeated this situation six or seven times now...

See photo if it works today....

One thought is that sometimes I end up shaving some lead off the bullet whole seating it... Maybe these are the slugs that have been shaved..... Since you cannot bell a rifle cartridge mouth, I do not know how to avoid the shaving problem...

Any ideas....????


WELL I have goofed with it for a few minutes now and it will not load photos.

[OnHoPr]

Possible barrel heat? Why can't you bell a rifle case mouth?

[btroj]

Many possibilities.

Shaved bullet, but that wpuld probably be more than an inch out.
Bullet flaws, but they would give large groups, not 2 distinct groups.
Changes in cheek weld on stock, very possible.
Could be lube purging, it can give 2 groups.

More info would help. What lube?

And can't bell a rifle case mouth? Really? Use a Lee universal expander. I use the Lyman M die, it prevents shaving like nothing else.

[Jim..47]

Here is a simple test to attempt to repair your two groups.

Just drop your powder charge by at least 1, or 2 grains. Two would be better. If this changes the group size or two group problem let us know.

Edit: If this helps at all, you can work your load back up to where its starts to expand again, but this may change again when summer temps get here.

[Shiloh]

Possible barrel heat? Why can't you bell a rifle case mouth?

Many ways to bell the case mouth. LEE Universal expander die, Lyman M die, or even a pair if pliers or other tool inserted in the mouth and rotated.

Shiloh

[Alan in Vermont]

Since you cannot bell a rifle cartridge mouth,

Please explain why you can't bell a rifle case mouth and how you hppened to come by that gem of misinformation.

[Jim..47]

I've also made my own expander die. You can use any die, but I used an old die that was of no use, I took the primer pusher out and installed an arrow point in it. You can also carefully resize the arrow point, but I've used mine for years. You can also take an extra one and size it differently for a different caliber.

[Jim..47]

Umm, I forgot, Lee dies won't work for this.

[HangFireW8]

Assuming your sizing is OK and you're not accidentally sizing the boolit in the neck, I'm with Jim in reducing your load a few grains, or working up again with a slower powder.

HF

[Float Pilot]

Ok I think I managed to get a photo to work..


This type of group is the best I can do with this rifle, 100 yards, SLOW FIRE, iron sights from sandbags.

I have tried various powder charges and different powders.. Those attempts usually end with 3 inch groups...

But 24 or 25 grains of AA-5744 always gives me a few touching and then the odd flyers.
I am using Winchester brass, CC-200 primers and a COL of 3.055 in.

It is odd in that it keeps repeating this type of group, but the odd flyer rounds are never in the same place or even in the same direction.

Thanks for the tips on belling a rifle case mouth....I am new to shooting cast bullets in necked case rifles.


PS: the mold is a RCBS (82152) with gas check sized to .310, mostly wheel weights.. so they come out at 162.5 grains.

I also tried some 210 grain ( well really 207gr) from a Lyman (311284)... They were all over the place...

The next best thing to the 160 grain range in cast for THIS RIFLE was some 180 grain
from a RCBS (82020) mold my buddy uses.

[Larry Gibson]

24 - 25 gr 5744 in the '06 under a 162 gr cast is probably pushing right at the RPM threshold of close to 140,000 RPM....add to that the spector of shaved bullets and you have unbalanced bullets and the 2 uncalled flyers are the result.

With the 162 gr bullet suggest you drop the charge of 5744 to 18 gr and use a 3/4 gr dacron filler working back up in 1/2 gr increments to 22 - 23 gr. 5744 with that light a bullet in the '06 many times does not ignite and burn efficiently until the psi is high enough.....but by then the velocity and RPM are to high for best accuracy. The dacron filler will improve the ignition and burn of the 5744 at lower psi and velocity. It also makes the load more uniform which also aids accuracy.

With the 180 - 210 gr cast i suggest a medium burning powder such as 4895; start at 28 gr and also use the 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up to 32 - 33 gr. Accuracy going south will tell you when you've hit the RPM threshold.

If your alloy is COWWs then add 2% tin to it, let the bullets age harden for a minimum 7-10 days before lubing, GCing or sizing. You've alread got the idea on belling the case mouths to prevent shaving the bullets on seating.

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

Could be a problem with the weight being different or possibly a bad scope too.

[303Guy]

I've had that with a particular rifle with jaxketeds. I eventually found a bullet that didn't do that. Difference was that it shot the same two groups. But in your case the flyers group changes position. Just a point here - five shots is a very small sample, seven is said to be minimum to assess accuracy and ten is better. By all means shoot five shot groups but superimpose them onto one target for a better picture of what is happening.

Apart from the possibility of shaved boolits and inconsistent ignition (I'm a Dacron person), neck tension can also vary and to me it's a tricky one. I haven't done much plain cast shooting in a rifle but I did try zero neck tension and it seemed to work.

[Float Pilot]

possibly a bad scope too. I was using the issue peep sight.

I fired 5 groups of five shots apiece... But at different targets.... I guess I should have photographed them all before using them to get the wood-stove started... We still have two feet of snow at my house.

I will pull apart one of the grand-kids stuffed animals and harvest some Dacron stuffing....

[HiVelocity]

If you're shooting cast bullets, you'd better flare every case mouth accordingly. Second, try seating, JUST SEATING, in one step with one die. Do not crimp with the seating die; use any of the Factory Crimp Die in the last final stage. I handload 308 using the 311314 and use the aforementioned process.

Just my .02 worth,

HV

[sundog]

I'm with Larry, back off on the powder charge. Also, keep that boolit as large a diameter as possible without shaving it. Do not crimp it, but straightening a flare is okay. I shoot 21.0/4227 with up a 200 gr boolit with very good results.

[Float Pilot]

So what would be a good target velocity ???

[runfiverun]

18-1900 fps.
i'm with corky on the non crimp thing.
heck I don't even take all the flair out of the case.
most of the time I use the flair to center the round in the chamber.

[fouronesix]

A couple of things to try.

Size to about .309- .310 and use an alloy that's not too hard- I use an alloy of about BHN 12-14 for this type load. Hard alloys are not needed for lower velocity- gas checked applications.

Use a Lyman M die to expand neck. Only use the small step part of the expander (it's about .1" long at the end of the long main neck expander portion) to barely flare the mouth to easily start the bullet GC. Don't crimp- just a light taper crimp by touching a loaded round into the sizer die to remove any flare at mouth- if desired. Of course you'll have to remove decapper to do that :) I usually remove the decapper/neck button stem on my cast bullet dies anyway. I use a universal decapping die and set the sizing die to minimally resize.

Try 18-19 gr 5744 with about .5- .75 gr of fluff dacron between powder and bullet base- tweezers help stuffing the dacron into bottleneck carts. You want the low density filler evenly distributed between powder and bullet base. This load yields about 1600 fps with SDs of 10-12 in 160-175 gr cast loads. And are some of the most accurate and consistent in my 03A3.

[randyrat]

Are your gas checks on square to the boolit ( coincidence can happen) . Is your lube applied consistent. Are you using a real hard lube in cool weather. I'm grabbing at straws.

[CATS]

Have you checked that ALL the screws on your rifle are tight? Is the barrel free floated? Does the stock push on the barrel as the barrel heats up? Is the bedding solid? Is your hold/grip/sling pressure changing? Did you climb up your powder load ladder in individually weighed small increments? Look to easy to check things in addition to how you are loading.

[Float Pilot]

A. Have you checked that ALL the screws on your rifle are tight?
B. Is the barrel free floated?
C. Does the stock push on the barrel as the barrel heats up?
D. Is the bedding solid?
E. Is your hold/grip/sling pressure changing?
F. Did you climb up your powder load ladder in individually weighed small increments? Look to easy to check things in addition to how you are loading.

A. Yes
B. No.. it is a stock Smith Corona 1903-A3 IN MINT CONDITION.
C. Probably
D. As much as a military rifle made in 1943 can be...** In order to keep the collector value, I tightened the stock to action fit by making a bunch of little aluminum foil balls and let then be crushed into place in the action while tightening the action screws. It acts like poor mans glass bedding without ruining the rifle. **E. Nope
F. Yes.

Here is how she can shoot with 190 and 200 grain Sierra match kings at 100 yards from sand-bags..... I just have no idea what I am doing when it comes to shooting cast bullets from bottle-neck rifle cases...

[303Guy]

Did you notice the order of the hits? I wouldn't be surprised if it's simply some quirk in the boolits and the way the launch down the bore. Could be some hidden casting defect although you'd pick that up when weighing them. Today I fired a well cast Lee boolit without the gas check (paper patched) and found the rifling impressions deeper on one side of the boolit, so much so that the lube grooves and gas check rebate were fully ironed out on that side. You can imagine how despondent I am about this rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

Float Pilot

Nothing wrong with you SC, it shoots very well, you can also shoot.......don't "fix" or worry about what isn't broke.

You're getting the flyers because your pushing that cast bullet too hard and too fast with 5744. Have you dropped the charge of 5744 or tried 4895, both with a dacron filler, like I earlier mentioned?

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

I'm with Larry, back off on the powder charge.

You're with Larry? But not Jim and I?

HF

[Float Pilot]

Heading out to the range again today..... Maybe....
The wife is on a spring cleaning rampage... YIKES!

[Float Pilot]

Well last weeks attempt at using fire-proof teddy bear stuffing did not work very well. Accuracy was even worse...

THIS TIME I BELLED THE CASES SOME AND DID NOT HAVE LEAD SHAVING.

Today I went out again.. Temp 42 degrees, windy but at least it stopped snowing and raining...
Mould is a Lee C309-160-R. It comes out at 162.5 grains after Lyman orange Magic lube and gas check are added.

Rifle: Smith Corona 1903A3, issue sights from sand bags at 100 yards.

Load One : 162gr cast, 17.0 grains UNIQUE, WW Brass, CCI-200 primer, 3.055 COL. no crimp. NO FILLER,
VELOCITY = 1,902 fps and averaged 1.5 inch groups NO FLYERS

Load Two : 162gr cast, 32.0 grains IMR-3031, WW Brass, CCI-200 primer, 3.055 COL. no crimp. NO FILLER,
Velocity = 1,850 fps and a 4.0 inch group ( Every group would average three shots under 2 inches and then throw the last two shots, with this powder load....IT WAS DIRTY,,, ) ... I think this load made the barrel hotter and the lube was too soft.

[popper]

this powder load....IT WAS DIRTY Cleans the bore of dirt & lube, then back to good for the next few rounds? Your getting close and your CB technique is improving. If the unique load is consistent for many rounds, I'd say it's good and forget the 3031. ~ 1/2 the cost.

[DLCTEX]

Hard lube with inconsistent purging in flight can be an accuracy killer. Just .100 of a second with unbalance due to lube partially ejecting will cuse enogh instability to affect accuracy.

[Float Pilot]

I probably need to make the COL a little longer as well. I was amazed that Unique did so well...

[truckjohn]

Wow, you are pushing that thing hard.. I am amazed that it groups as well as it does with a 1,900 FPS Unique load.... Any chance you can try out 17g of 2400 powder and work up to 20 or so? You will probably be running ~1,600 fps at 17g... but it's a known good load...

Thanks

[Float Pilot]

Believe it or not, 18 grains was the minimum load listed in the newer Lyman manual for a 160- grain bullet.
But I used 17 grains from the old 1960s manual.
For some reason or another they did not list 2400. Which is weird since they do for my buddy's 7.5 Swiss.

I seem to be obtaining a little more velocity than they list in the manuals as well. I will give 2400 a shot (pun intended) when I get caught up a little on the annual spring aircraft problems.

[Larry Gibson]

Well last weeks attempt at using fire-proof teddy bear stuffing did not work very well. Accuracy was even worse...

THIS TIME I BELLED THE CASES SOME AND DID NOT HAVE LEAD SHAVING.

Today I went out again.. Temp 42 degrees, windy but at least it stopped snowing and raining...
Mould is a Lee C309-160-R. It comes out at 162.5 grains after Lyman orange Magic lube and gas check are added.

Rifle: Smith Corona 1903A3, issue sights from sand bags at 100 yards.

Load One : 162gr cast, 17.0 grains UNIQUE, WW Brass, CCI-200 primer, 3.055 COL. no crimp. NO FILLER,
VELOCITY = 1,902 fps and averaged 1.5 inch groups NO FLYERS

Load Two : 162gr cast, 32.0 grains IMR-3031, WW Brass, CCI-200 primer, 3.055 COL. no crimp. NO FILLER,
Velocity = 1,850 fps and a 4.0 inch group ( Every group would average three shots under 2 inches and then throw the last two shots, with this powder load....IT WAS DIRTY,,, ) ... I think this load made the barrel hotter and the lube was too soft.

Your Unique load is igniting, burning efficiently and is just under the RPM threshold which is why it was accurate.

Your 3031 load is not igniting and burning efficiently with that lighter weight 162 gr cast bullet even though it to is under the RPM threshold. "IT WAS DIRTY" is a good clue and the ES probably wasn't all that great either. Drop back to 30 gr, add a 3/4 gr dacron filler and try that and work back up to 33 gr staying under 1950 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Float Pilot]

20 grains of 2400, with the same 162gr bullet in my buddy's Swiss 7.5mm K-31 was going 2077 fps if he held the barrel up before each shot and 1975 fps if he let the powder lay flat. His groups were stringing from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

[Larry Gibson]

20 grains of 2400, with the same 162gr bullet in my buddy's Swiss 7.5mm K-31 was going 2077 fps if he held the barrel up before each shot and 1975 fps if he let the powder lay flat. His groups were stringing from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

That's due to poor "powder positioning" (intentionally induced in above). It is one of the things the dacron filler will cure. With the dacron filler and dropping the charge down to 18 gr the ES will probably be cut close to 50% and accuracy will improve with the verticle stringing gone.

Larry Gibson

[Float Pilot]

On my 17 grain Unique load, I raised the barrel and gently shook the 1903A3 before every round.
It seemed to work fine, but that load is probably filling 30% of the case.

I have to find some of that Dacron that does not come out of a grand-kid's teddy bear... The stuff in teddy bears does not combust.
Due to my geographic location, there is a limit on what I can find locally.

I made the 500 mile round trip to Anchorage last week, but the stores up there were stripped bare as well. Does Midway USA sell Dacron filler ?

[swheeler]

On my 17 grain Unique load, I raised the barrel and gently shook the 1903A3 before every round.
It seemed to work fine, but that load is probably filling 30% of the case.

I have to find some of that Dacron that does not come out of a grand-kid's teddy bear... The stuff in teddy bears does not combust.
Due to my geographic location, there is a limit on what I can find locally.

I made the 500 mile round trip to Anchorage last week, but the stores up there were stripped bare as well. Does Midway USA sell Dacron filler ?


Use the stuffing out of the Teddy bear, it will be just fine. Other than that everything Larry has told you i have found to be true in my experience.

[Char-Gar]

I have been following this thread looking for a clue and others have given good advise. I think Larry has nailed it with one minor point of disagreement.

First of all, it look like your rifle is just fine. The 03A3 is a fine cast bullet rifle and the Smith Corona is the best of the breed. I have both a 4 groove Remington and a Smith Corona. With good cast bullet loads both will deliver dependable, repeatable 1.5 to 2 ten shot groups at 100 yards off the bench. The days they wont do that, are the days I am not doing my part, or I am trying to shoot with too much wind. I should expect your rifle will do as well.

I have learned that fast powder like Unique and 2400 (though slower than Unique), 4227 and 4759 are excellent cast bullet powders up to velocities of about 1,800 fps (more or less). After than accuracy starts to fall of with these powders. I attribute this bullet compression due to the quick jolt of pressure.

Above 1,800 fps best accuracy will be obtained with slower powders that deliver a more gentle shove to the bullet. The slower the better IMHO.

Now to the minor point of disagreement; For sub-1,800 fps loads I use 2400 with charge weights of 16 to 18 grains. I am talking 30-06 here. Accuracy is outstanding with a well fitted bullet and I have found no need for a filler or Dacron to hold the powder in place. That is the minor point of disagreement.

With the medium burners (3031, 4895 and the like) I think the notion of fillers or Dacron will have some validity. But I skip those powders when I got to 1,800 fps and up.

Some years back I discovered WC872, which is a very slow ball powder developed for the 20mm Vulcan round. 50 grains of this stuff, poured through a long drop tube for compaction and topped with enough shotshell round plastic buffer to give a light compression under any decent cast bullet, is just scary accurate in the 30-06.

The amount of buffer will vary between .75 cc and 1.50 cc depending on the length of the bullet. I have used this powder charge under over 20 different 30 caliber cast bullets and I get uniform round groups with every bullet. The size of those groups, will very depending on bullet fit to the barrel. But this charge will quickly tell me the accuracy potential of any bullet in a particular 30-06 rifle.

There are several bullets that will turn in sterling performance with RCBS 165 SIL, Lyman 311466 and 311467, 311407 Mod, and 311284 being my most used.

Bottom Line: If the flyers are not the rifle or you, then taking a look at loading technique comes first. Well cast bullet that are sized properly, lubed properly and are seated in properly prepared cases are to first area of inquiry.

If the flyer persist then it is time to consider the powder and charge. There is an ignition issue. In your case, the inconsistent ignition is causing inconsistent pressure with the result in inconsistent point of impact.

[Larry Gibson]

Float Pilot

The dacron can be found in the toy but also in pillows, etc. You could get a pillow from most online stores that sell such or a bag of polyester fill shipped in from fabric or sewing supply stores.

I have to disagree with Char-gar; I don't think we are really in "disagreement". The 16 - 18 gr load of 2400 w/o a filler works for many, especially when shooting off a bench or from one position and single loading. Been there, done that and it works fine because the rounds are loaded the same way and the powder positioning from such is fairly consistent. However for all around use when the cartridges are magazine fed and shot from different positions with different shouldering of the rifle from different cary positions the powder is not always positioned the same. The OPs simple test of elevtaing or depressing the muzzle with the corresponding large ES in FPS is ample evidence of that.

I recommended dropping the charge to 18 gr to get the velocity down and reduce the "quick jolt of pressure" from the heavier charges the OP was using. The dacron filler will then position the powder consistent regardles of the angle of the shot or the shouldering variations from a carry position. So in reality char-gar and I are singing off the same page:drinks:

Additionally I also many times recommend the slower powders and with such many times the loading denstiy is greater than 80% and I do not recommend the filler then as it is not needed. Again we agree:drinks:

Thus, if 2400 is your choice of powder and you want to use it as a walk about general purpose load then you may even want to drop back to 16 gr, use the dacron filler and work back up to 18 gr 2400. You should find a very good load in there.:D

Larry Gibson

[Float Pilot]

I am also going to slug my bore in this Smith Corona 1903A3. When shooting jacketed bullets it likes 190 to 200 grain bullets. Lighter jacketed bullets do not do so swell.
So..... I had originally thought that 200 grain cast slugs would do well. So I obtained some from a shooting buddy who has a 200 grain mould... They did not work so swell, but now that I know that I was making all sorts of mistakes with velocity and case prep.... I may need to re-visit the heavy bullet idea. It might also help keep the velocities a little slower...

[Larry Gibson]

Keep the velocities under 1800 fps, probably 1700 fps with a 200 gr cast, or use a medium or slower burning powder and keep them under 1950 - 2000 fps. My M1903s (3 of them), including my own SC, shoot cast quite well.

Larry Gibson

[Float Pilot]

This Smith Corona was re-arsenaled after WWII and sold in the early 60s for the DCM.
While I have the Smith Corona bolt that came with it, I use a Remington bolt when shooting matches with this rifle.. It is a touch smoother. So that is the bolt in this photo.

[Char-Gar]

I am also going to slug my bore in this Smith Corona 1903A3. When shooting jacketed bullets it likes 190 to 200 grain bullets. Lighter jacketed bullets do not do so swell.
So..... I had originally thought that 200 grain cast slugs would do well. So I obtained some from a shooting buddy who has a 200 grain mould... They did not work so swell, but now that I know that I was making all sorts of mistakes with velocity and case prep.... I may need to re-visit the heavy bullet idea. It might also help keep the velocities a little slower...

S-C and Remington 03A3 barrels are very uniform, so there is no need to slug it. The throat is the critical dimension anyway. Just size you bullets .310 and never look back. 200 grain bullets are a good weight, so no need to back away from them. Dialing back on the velocity is a very good idea.

[Float Pilot]

Well today I had a couple hours between other duties...

Bullet; 162 grain cast gas check
Powder: 16.0 grains (2400)
DACRON; 1.3 grains
Brass: Winchester Virgin
Primer: CCI-200
COL: 3.144 in.

GROUP = HORRIBLE 6 INCH ALL OVER THE PLACE.

[Larry Gibson]

Float Pilot

That's a pretty light load with probably too much dacron for the 160 gr bullet. The 2400 is not burning efficiently. Increase the 2400 in 1 gr increments to 20 gr. Decrease the amount of dacron to 3/4 gr. Fluff the dacron when you poke it into the case and just get it all inside the neck. Let the bullet, when you seat it, push the dacron down the rest of the way.

As I mentioned earlier you will probably get best accuracy with the 200 gr bullet.

Larry Gibson