Hardnes tester

[beppe]

Hallo
Where i can buy a hardnes tester in a budget ?
I'm italian
Thanks for the help ! [smilie=s:

[GP100man]

Lee`s works good once ya learn to hold the scope .

Look around ,there`s some members that have came up with some nice tools to hold it .

WELCOME to CASTBOOLITS.com !! :cbpour:

[hermans]

Would the one from Cabine Tree be outside your budget? Have a look there, it sure is a very good sturdy tester which would not irritate the living day lights out of you, and it will last you a lifetime. I use mine every time I prepare my alloy, and have never looked back again:-P

[mold maker]

+1 on the cabin tree. LEE will work if you have patients and really good eyes.

[detox]

Lee will work if you can find one. Lee cannot keep up with orders

[Cane_man]

lead pencils

[beppe]

Traduzione
in Italy, for a year, the products are very few and lee lee not send anything because the products are for orders america.
I find this right.

[hermans]

beppe, have a look at
http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_loading_products.htm
Scroll down until you see the hardness tester, this is one we are talking about, you cannot compare it to the one from Lee, this one is more expensive, but is far more superior in ease of use and will give you the same accurate readings time after time.

[bgoff_ak]

I don't have a tester so I’m more just inquiring... from my other hobbies metal work / foundry etc. you need to have your tool calibrated IE for machining there are very specific sized blocks to test against. Every so often there are requirement for commercial work to get items calibrated. I often hear brand X is better then brand Y or I’m always able to get the same results, but does any one actually have a calibration block that is used / sold of a known hardness ? I have included a link to a very good article below showing while people may be getting relative numbers the deviation from the standard can be quite large. Below is an excerpt from the link 10 bullets were sent to 10 random people to be tested and results sent in. and these people knew there results would be scrutinized so I’m assuming this was an above average kick at the cat.

#1 I agree with yammerschooner that as long as you are getting consistent readings IE your reading 18 the lab results are reading 20, but from the below table it appears that many are getting differing readings from the same set up. Does any one test from the last batch to see if it still is within a +/- ?

#2 does any one see a large batch variation ? from your first cast / last cast on hardness ( assuming the same 20lb pot load )

#3 how often do you test your lead, once per batch, just grab one in the mix etc etc.

#4 can one make the assumption that even w/o a tester that pure us 7, ww are 14, water cooled ww are 20… I ask this because this tool of measuring the hardness, and having someone else tell me to add more WW to the mix does not seem to make a whole lot of sense if I measure my lead as 15 and he gets 40. They would be two very differing answers.


LBT
Tester: Person Bullet 1 Bullet 2 Bullet 3 Bullet 4 Bullet 5 Bullet 6 Bullet 7 Bullet 8 Bullet 9 Bullet 10 Average S.D. E.S.
1. LBT** 1 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 21.0 21.0 21.0 21.0 23.0 23.0 21.0 1.2 3.0
2. LBT** 2 18.0 18.0 19.0 19.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 21.0 21.0 21.0 19.7 1.2 3.0
3. LBT 10 30.0 30.0 35.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 40.0 37.5 4.2 10.0
4. LBT 19 15.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 17.0 1.1 3.0
5. LBT 20 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 19.0 19.0 19.0 19.0 19.0 18.5 0.5 1.0
6. LBT 23 19.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 20.0 21.0 21.0 21.0 20.2 0.6 2.0
7. LBT 24 16.0 16.0 16.5 17.0 17.0 17.0 17.5 17.5 17.5 17.5 17.0 0.6 1.5
8. LBT 36 22.7 24.0 25.0 25.3 25.3 25.7 25.7 26.3 26.3 26.3 25.3 1.1 3.6
9. LBT 48 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 20.0 17.9 0.9 3.0
Low value 15.0 High value 40.0 Average of All LBT Testers Combined BHN S.D. E.S.
21.6 6.4 25.0
** Test 1 and 2 for LBT tool were done on the same tool on two separate dates.



http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm

[bgoff_ak]

that chart did not come in at all like the preview... sorry...

[detox]

According to the Lee reloading manual. All you need to do is compress a 5/32 ball bearing into lead with 60 lbs of force for 30 seconds. Then take measurement of indent using dial caliper and convert using Lee's hardness chart.
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/90924.pdf

Ace hardware sells the 5/32 ball bearing. You can find it in the specialty nuts and bolts department. How you compress ballbearing is up to you?

I will use floor scales and drill press. Resting ball bearing between drill chuck and lead then apllying 60 lbs of force onto floor scales for 30 seconds.

[Voodoocld]

I use the lee unit. Its pretty simple, just a stainless ball, and a spring. Of course they package it nicely in a die for the press.

[ukrifleman]

I have used the same tool for 42 years Thumbnail! works for me.
ukrifleman.

[mold maker]

The LEE tool works fine for those with three hands, really good eyes, and if they also have steady nerves. I have LEE, Saeco, and Cabintree. At 70+ with shaky nerves, in my only two hands, I use my gnarled thumbnail and the Cabintree. I can see them better than the others.
Most of the time it really doesn't matter, but since I spent the bucks, I'd feel guilty not using them.

[7Acres]

How would you measure BHNs lower than 8.0? I was attracted to the PDF in your post as it seemed very simple and repeatable. But their chart doesn't go down low enough for close-to-pure lead. Is there an extended chart?


According to the Lee reloading manual. All you need to do is compress a 5/32 ball bearing into lead with 60 lbs of force for 30 seconds. Then take measurement of indent using dial caliper and convert using Lee's hardness chart.
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/90924.pdf

Ace hardware sells the 5/32 ball bearing. You can find it in the specialty nuts and bolts department. How you compress ballbearing is up to you?

I will use floor scales and drill press. Resting ball bearing between drill chuck and lead then apllying 60 lbs of force onto floor scales for 30 seconds.

[Larry Gibson]

The Lee unit is very useable, especially if you can find an old kids microscope to easily adapt it to. I found the microscope for around $12.

Larry Gibson

[detox]

How would you measure BHNs lower than 8.0? I was attracted to the PDF in your post as it seemed very simple and repeatable. But their chart doesn't go down low enough for close-to-pure lead. Is there an extended chart?

The Lee reloading manual states: Lead that indents to .094" diameter or larger should be suitable for black powder guns.

[davegalesr]

The Lee works fine - just a pain to hold everything and get a reading. I made this to hold the scope.71340

[Smoke4320]

looked at the lee and the cabine tree .. decided on cabine tree much easier to read and use..
For a tool that should last the rest of my life its money well spent

the microscope and the steel block riser are neat adaptations for the lee tester

[BAGTIC]

I use the LBT tester and have been satisfied. Consistency of results has been close enough.

Remember when using anything the operator plays a part. Even with a good micrometer there can be different reading with different operators.

Is the alloy exactly the same in every instance? Is the temperature of the alloy exactly the same. Is the temperature of the mold exactly the same? Is the time between filling and dropping the bullet exactly the same? Was air temperature exactly the same. There are probably a lot of other variables.

The real question is it close enough and how much difference does it take to matter? Sometimes, "The best is the enemy of the good."

[454PB]

I lump hardness testers in with lead thermometers. I cast boolits for 35 years before I owned either of them, but now that I have them, I'm messing around with them all the time......curiosity don't ya know!

I have the Lee tool, which is problematic to use until you build a steadying device such as the ones shown here. After that, I think the Lee is as accurate as any other tool. I was one of the testers involved in the Shay tests, and my results where very close the the lab control testing.

[Sensai]

I've used thumbnail, pencils, nail and Lee tester. I just ordered a Cabine Tree tester. I'm just too old and impatient to mess with the other stuff any more! I did a lot of research and determined that the Cabine Tree was what would suit me the best. Besides, Jim seems like one heck of a nice guy!

[Smoke4320]

ordered a cabine tree Monday .. he shipped it yesterday
now the testing begins

[TenTea]

Embarking on the *Staedtler Pencil - Alloy Hardness Testing Method* later this weekend as an experiment which cost me $7 thus far.
I already have a tubing cutter and sand paper.
And it's all the fault of this forum too! ;-)

[bangerjim]

I use a 10mm ball in my little milling vice. Open the vice up, put the sample against one jaw, the ball against the other, and tighten until they just touch. Then remove and replace the vice handle (splined) until I have a "lever" action arm sticking out to hang a 1KG brass weight on. And then let it hang for a bit.

Remove the sample and scope it with a lab optic I have that measures in 0.001 inches.

I have several known accurate samples to use as reference points:
pure lead
Lyman #2
lino
COWW
pure tin
Antimony
pure zinc
6010 aluminum

By using these as standards, I have build a table that gives me a Brinell "guestimator" that is pretty close! close enough for government work, anyway! ;-)

Been waiting for over 3+ months for the Lee thing-a-ma-bob to ship! My NIST tracable Brinell portable tester does not go below 50, so I am forced to jury-rig for now.

[detox]

I just purcahsed the Saeco Lead Hardness testor. My Linotype measures exactly 10 on the Seaco scale (22 bhn) and pure lead measures zero on the Seaco scale (5 bhn). Unit very fast and easy to use with .308 thru .45 cal boolits. I like the Seaco tester better than the Lee method.

[Smoke4320]

got my cabine tree yesterday.. 2 days all the way accross the country WA to NC..
quick testing of linotype, COWW ingots, SOWW ingots , bullets made from each and several mixes
everything fell just where it should .. now I can test scrap, mix alloys, and test hardness with confidence

[altheating]

You will like the Cabine Tree Tester !

[Vinne]

A little pricey but for all it does the Cabine Tree Tester is worth it. I will be ordering mine soon!!

[Oreo]

Maybe you guys can explain but how accurate can a hardness test be, even relatively speaking, when a given alloy can have a range of hardnesses depending on how it was cast and cooled, possibly work softened and or age hardened, heat treated, etc.? Seems like trying to focus a camera when the subject itself is blurry.

[Sensai]

While it's true that an alloy can have different hardnesses because of different treatment, your own boolits should have a known history. Ingot hardness is just an indicator of what the boolit hardness can be. I don't test my boolits until they have aged at least three weeks from casting and/or heat treating. I size before I heat treat and then lube in the same sizing die afterwards. I think that any change after that will be minor. You're right that it can't be an exact science, but if you remove as many variables as you can it can be pretty darn close. Keeping good records helps, too.

[Smoke4320]

as the old saying goes buy good once or buy cheap many times..
I was on the fence about the Cabine tree till I read all the repots here .. now after having gotten mine I am VERY satisfyed..
its a well built tool that should last a lifetime

[montana_charlie]

How would you measure BHNs lower than 8.0? I was attracted to the PDF in your post as it seemed very simple and repeatable. But their chart doesn't go down low enough for close-to-pure lead. Is there an extended chart?
From Texas Mac's website ...

http://www.texas-mac.com/sitebuilder/images/Extended_BHN_Chart_for_Lee_Tester3-728x491.jpg

[Grump]

Gee whiz, my .45 ACP and .38 Special loads are way above 11,376 PSI per QuickLOAD, and my BHN 8 bullets do just fine.

Same for the BHN 14 gas check bullets in .30 Carbine. They shoot as accurately as J-Words (USGI Ball and my reloads), and better than Berry's Plated and Russian steel case junk. 1900 fps at 8 feet off the muzzle.

I don't trust that chart in that respect.

[hermans]

as the old saying goes buy good once or buy cheap many times..
I was on the fence about the Cabine tree till I read all the repots here .. now after having gotten mine I am VERY satisfyed..
its a well built tool that should last a lifetime
You have one of the best, if not the best. Money well spent, will serve you with consistent readings for the rest of your casting years.

[lightman]

My Cabine Tree tester arrived this week! Yahoo!! Work has kept me from playing with it, but I plan to this weekend. Everything said above, about it, is true. Nice people to deal with, well built tool, packaged well, fast shipping, just can't say enough about it!

I would welcome any advice about it that anyone wants to offer. Do's, don'ts, any little tricks you have learned. Lightman

[Garyshome]

Just got one here yesterday! not cheap but nothing is anymore

[detox]

I would welcome any advice about it that anyone wants to offer. Do's, don'ts, any little tricks you have learned. Lightman

Casting rate, melt temp, cooling rate all have an effect on Wheel Weight (arsenic) lead hardness. Especially cooling rate. Find an alloy that works in your gun and be consistant while casting. Pure lead tin (20/1) is probably the easiest alloy to work with using low pressure loads.

My SAECO hardness tester measures my old 20/1 alloy @ 4 on the Saeco scale or 7 bhn. It would be interesting to see from other members what hardness their Cabin Tree measures their personal supply of 20/1 lead tin alloy...anybody?

[R.M.]

20:1 should be 10 BHN should it not?

[detox]

20:1 should be 10 BHN should it not?

Thats what all charts say, but what does your personal 20/1 alloy measure?

[lightman]

Thanks, Detox. I looked very hard at the Saeco, but the ability to test ingots and other odd chunks of lead made me look at the Cabin tree. Lightman

[detox]

My SAECO hardness tester measures my old 20/1 alloy @ 4 on the Saeco scale or 7 bhn. It would be interesting to see from other members what hardness their Cabin Tree or Lee hardness tester measures their personal supply of 20/1 lead tin alloy...anybody?

Anybody have 20/1 lead tin alloy they can check and post results.

[762sultan]

I have a Cabine Tree and have found it to be accurate and easy to use. Also it gives repeatable readings that have been taken on different days. It may be more expensive than some others but if I'm only going to have one...I'm going to have a good one. Sultan

[John Boy]

Chevy's - Chrysler's and Ford's ... read this article how several of the hardness testers stack up to each other for accuracy, including the Lee ...
http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm#Initial_Analysis_of_Results

The Lee and Cabine Tree are a neck & neck equal comparison for Bhn reading and Standard Deviation. So, spend your money how you want to! The Lee has served me well for many years at a lower purchase price testing over 2,000 lbs of lead & alloys

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have the Lee tool as well. I use my optical comparator to measure the indents. I can get alot closer and actually split BNh numbers for a more accurate reading because it has a digital readout that goes to 10 millionths of an inch. This is gross over kill and not necessary for accurate results, it is just because I can.

If you set your loading press up so that the handle goes over center just as the Lee Tool's indicator comes into position, you can let it rest there for 30 seconds without disturbing it. This will give you repeatable results.

Measuring anything is all about "Repeatable Results." If you can't diplicate the same reading two or three times you haven't gotten a viable reading in the first place. This is true for any measuring device.

The Lee tool can be made to work perfectly and easily by the simple addition of a holder for the scope. There are pictures of several simple ones in this post. The Scope Holder just makes it so you can get repeatable readings easily. I have never figured out why Lee doesn't include something to do this job.

The Lee tool is the best made one out there and most likely to keep it's calibration over time.

Randy

[montana_charlie]

Anybody have 20/1 lead tin alloy they can check and post results.
If you have mixed 20:1 alloy and are wondering why your tester doesn't give you a reading of 10 BHN, you are not alone.

20:1 lead/tin alloy requires 12 hours to age-soften after casting. At that point it stabilizes at 7.8 BHN.
A Lee tester will repeatedly return that result if used with good technique.

CM

[detox]

If you have mixed 20:1 alloy and are wondering why your tester doesn't give you a reading of 10 BHN, you are not alone.

20:1 lead/tin alloy requires 12 hours to age-soften after casting. At that point it stabilizes at 7.8 BHN.
A Lee tester will repeatedly return that result if used with good technique.

CM

That is exactly what my Saeco tester reads (Saeco 4 or 7.8 BHN) when testing my 20:1 alloy.

[harley6699]

Would the one from Cabine Tree be outside your budget? Have a look there, it sure is a very good sturdy tester which would not irritate the living day lights out of you, and it will last you a lifetime. I use mine every time I prepare my alloy, and have never looked back again:-P

I agree with you.. I have used a Lee and RCBE hardness tester and the Cabine tester is so easy to you and you don't have to look in a Microscope to read it..

[ballistim]

I recently purchased the Cabine Tree and it works great, very easy to use following the supplied instructions and conversion chart to read BHN. I have several years worth of ingots of mixed scrap lead of assorted alloys, and most of it soft lead that I can add RotoMetal Super Hard Alloy or scrap Linotype & tin to make hardball or Lyman #2 alloy. Cabine Tree's tester is well built and strong, I have no doubt that it will be the last tool that I will ever require for this purpose in my lifetime. Definite thumb's up!

[MacFan]

I couldn't find a Lee available to buy and didn't want to pay for a Cabine Tree (rather spend the money on other stuff) so I built this- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?204139-Scrap-Bin-Lead-Tester. It'll test bars up to 3 inches thick. It's something you may want to think about if you're on a tight budget like myself.