New Wad Slug To Try

[longbow]

It has been slow going but I decided to use the best features of slugs tested so far to make a new mould. This is an attached wad slug Brenneke/AQ style as so far I have had good results with these. Actually the best results I have had are with a Rapine .730" TC slug and my own undersize TC hollow base slug. I had altered the TC hollow base mould to make a TC attached wad slug which worked pretty well but was still undersize so had to be paper patched to snug fit.

So, I decided to try a Lee Drive Key slug with attached wad and that worked pretty well too but since th eLee Slugs are tapered, it is a bit difficult to get a form lined up to keep the attached wad dead in line. A taper machined form would work but I am lazy and sizing the Lee slugs down some making them straight sided would probably work too but again, I am lazy. So, I made a TC mould with small hollow base simply for glue area (attached wads are hot melt glue), a nose band to fit standard shotcups with snug fit to bore, reduced shank to suit typical shotcup inside base dimensions then made glue forms to slide over the shank for alignment. Worked out pretty well.

Now to see if they shoot!

Attached is a photo showing from left to right: new TC slug, Lee Drive key slug with attached wad recovered from snow, TC solid recovered from snow, TC solid recovered after passing through an 8" poplar tree then smucking a rock.

The attached wad seems to swell to fill the bore well at firing as they are quite undersize yet you can see a black streak on the slug third from th left where it filled out to the wad petal slits. Most recovered slugs have the same marks, yet the glue retains its strength and shape overall.

Yeah, I know the new TC nose doesn't have a big enough meplat... I already fixed that so the next batch have a bigger meplat like the TC solid.

I am hoping to send some slugs down range this weekend.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

How do you form the hot melt wads and don't they leave residue? Wait, the hot melt and slug are in a plastic wad...BTW we're you aiming at that helpless tree??? Hah!

[longbow]

I use bored out 1/2" CPVC pipe couplings for glue forms and grease the inside so glue does not stick. I tried 30 wt. oil and that didn't work well (just ask me!). Grease does work well though.

If I do my part the glue wads come out pretty nicely.

Yes, these are wad slugs not full bore or they would leave a mess!!!!! I have used a similar style of full bore slug but used a two wrap paper tube and cast glue inside it.

And, yes I was aiming for the helpless little tree! He couldn't move and I wanted to see if the glue wads would stay with the slugs and so they do. I have recovered slugs from snow, rocky hillsides and our 100 yard sand berm and generally the glue wads are still attached.

The solid TC slug has a screw run into the base then glue poured around it. The new TC has a small hollow base for glue adhesion and no running a screw in (I'm lazy!).

The Lee of course is big hollow base so lots of area for glue adhesion. They shot not badly at all considering the glue skirts aren't dead in line ~ about 4" groups at 50 yards which was better than naked Lee's. I only shot a few groups though an no load development so not a good test.

I am hoping these new ones do well.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

'Scuse all the ?? But I'm interested in this...what's the ballpark weight of the hot melt wads and would they stand up to Ga. Heat? 90* +

[longbow]

Hmmmm, I will have to weigh just a wad to find out. The hot melt glue is quite light when one considers how strong it is.

I should also say this is high strength hot melt glue not the general rubbery stuff. This stuff is amber and is almost as hard as polyethylene. I think in a shotcup it wouldn't matter much but just saying that is what I use.

I don't think 90* is a problem, we get very hot here in the summer and I have had no problems with the glue in ambient heat. I do put afilm of grease on the glue wads before loading just to make sure they don't stick to the shotcup. So far so good!

My logic with this is that I want a choke safe slug so undersize and in a shotcup is good and the glue seems to "slug up" at firing filling the bore and giving tight fit. It also retains its shape as you can see. Hollow base slugs generally deform quite a bit as well as slugging up often unevenly. I have a whack of recovered factory and home cast hollow base slugs including Gualandi DGS slugs and almost all are quite badly distorted.

Solids and Brenneke style do not seem to suffer form distortion issues.

I have tried a variety of materials as attached wads screwed on and have failed miserably but the hot melt glue is cheap, easy and seems to work pretty well. I have a lathe so can make forms pretty easy.

The goal is a consistent clean edged attached wad.

I will weigh some wads only and let you know what they weigh. I haven't even weighed these new slugs yet. the TC solid is about 525 grs. as was the hollow base design. I have shot slugs up to 800 grs. but recipes are hard to find so I like to stay under about 1 3/8 oz. for ease of finding load data.

For shots to 50 yards or a bit further, I am sold on round balls. however, my goal was consistent 6" or smaller groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. Not there yet!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

You're using ferrel cement I use for arrows, etc. Gotcha.

[longbow]

Nope, not ferrel cement, just high strength hot melt glue. Ferrel cement is clear amber and really hard. No reason it wouldn't work but I think it is much more expensive than hot melt glue.

I use a standard glue gun with 1/2" diameter glue sticks and just pump it into the forms with the slug in place so the glue bonds to the slug. I added a small hollow base because the glue can shear off a flat base. The screw run into a flat base works well to but is more work and I think i mentioned, I am lazy.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Good to see you're still at it, Longbow. We'll beat this sucker or perish trying :shock:

The polypropylene wads are put on hold for the moment. Turned out the viscosity was to high to get the plastic flowing properly. Some sort of pressurized injection is needed for filling a mold - too much hassle at the moment. Instead I'm working on your 'glue wad' concept, only I'm experimenting with epoxy instead of glue. I've done some preliminary testing, hoping to be able to cast a wad sandwiched between the slug and a seal/card in one go. Unfortunately this is not easily accomplished. Once hardened the epoxy will not compress, so the epoxy core diameter must be small enough to pass through a full choked barrel. This means the mold would have to be a two-part design.

Instead, I've gone for a two stage operation where the wad are molded with the base seal in place, and then glued into the base of the slug. Hopefully the bond will be strong enough without a screw. So far I have only made a single wad for proof of concept, but I hope to test the new wads during the weekend.

A few pictures of the new type wad and the mold:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5797/img0163vz.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/634/img0165wb.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9863/img0166tj.jpg

[Carryacolt]

Cap'n
Are you using the "green wad" primarily as an op wad? Is the dark center "wad" adjustable for length for any crimp adjustment or different powder selection?
Good job on progress made so far.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Cap'n
Are you using the "green wad" primarily as an op wad? Is the dark center "wad" adjustable for length for any crimp adjustment or different powder selection?
Good job on progress made so far.

The green plastic wad is a combined over powder wad/seal. Italian made, 1/4" thick, it can be stacked as high as needed. The epoxy wad can not be adjusted lengthwise other than making a new mold. The mold has a distinct step which the plastic wad rests against. The wads are pushed in place, and the cavities are filled with epoxy from the front. This, combined with the tapered front, which match the slug cavity exactly, should keep everything aligned during launch... hopefully. Notice, I use the word "hopefully" a lot [smilie=1:

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

Yes, still at it but I suspect I will perish trying to achieve my goal! I hope one of us survives and conquers though!

I have not tried much other than a couple of kinds of hot melt glue. I found it flowed pretty well and especially since I am Using CPVC pipe fittings, for moulds, that holds heat as well allowing good fillout. I thought about epoxy but figured it was too hard/brittle. That of course depends on the epoxy you can find as they have different properties. Your comment just made me think of something too ~ urethane. I am not sure of specs but many years ago I was involved in a monorail design with driving wheels using a cast urethane tires. The first wheels were too hard so the fab shop made a more "rubbery" mix and those softer tires worked well. That urethane flowed into every nook and cranny of the mould too. Not sure of the cost but if not prohibitive, a soft urethane might be the answer. It is a two part mix like regular epoxies.

You are not the only one who uses words like "hopefully" a lot when referring to upcoming slug tests, let me tell you!

Hopefully my new slug will shoot well for example. That undersize TC solid did pretty well and this one is a better fit so again hopefully...

I really like the looks of your slug. Have you recovered any after shooting?

I have many recovered slugs I have shot and that others have shot. I like to see what happens as they travel down the bore and recoverking slug after the snow melts can tell a guy a lot. I have found more types of slugs with crushed ribs or that cocked in the bore and almost all hollow base slugs are scrunched from slugging up.

I really should post a photo. I will try to get to it shortly. I think it will be very educational for many.

Looking forward to your upcoming test results.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Yes....Photos pls!

[silas oberhauser]

At what point does the tail of the slug become too long? What if you took a rod of poliethylene and machined them into nondiscarding sabots. You could put gas rings and bore out the front for what ever bullet you wanted. Or you could shape them just like captain did to fit in the rear of the slug. I have millions of ideas that come to me and I have to write them down so I don't forget. My wife even got me ato filing cabnet to keep all of my ideas that iI draw out on paint Lol sorry for the spelling im on my phone.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Since I already hijacked Longbow's thread, here's a short follow-up on the epoxy wads...

Four shots at fifty meters, the results were so-so, but not entirely bad. Two of the slugs hit dead center only a couple of inches apart, the other two were fliers striking some twelve inches apart. It was obvious from examining the target, that both the two fliers had struck at an angle, making irregular holes compared to the two center hits which had cut perfectly round holes.

I searched for the slugs, but only managed to find the two "fliers" Both slugs still had the epoxy wad attached, indicating the wad is more than strong enough and the Araldite two-component glue used to secure the wad to the slug base will hold up as well. Both plastic seals was also present, but no longer attached and both were badly shredded on the outer lips. My theory (and that's all it is) is this happened while the slugs were still in the barrel and this is what caused the slugs to veer off. Oddly enough, even though the seals can easily be peeled off the bottom of wad, they remained attached until impact in spite of the drag. I've now made a few more slugs with both wad & seal glued in place. Tomorrow we shall see... hopefully.


http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9809/img0174tb.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3329/img0176ot.jpg

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

My feeling is that you should leave the gas seal loose so if discards.

I have had trouble with gas seals as well especially with "hard" wad columns or solid slugs. I think it must be due to pressure and maybe a spike if no cushion leg is there to collapse and absorb some "punch". Not sure and it is just a guess.

Anyway, if a lip shreds and the seal is going along for the ride then it will affect flight. My opinion anyway.

I hope to get out and test my new design soon as well. I had hoped this weekend but I think it will have to wait a week or two.

Those slugs of yours look pretty goo after recovery. i don't see any obvious flattening of ribs or othe rproblems. good going!

I posted a bunch of photos of recovered slugs in another thread. Some of my home made Brenneke style slugs are in the collection. I had trouble with ribs collapsing.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow,

I'll load up a few rounds with the seals glued in place, and a few with a dab of silicone instead of glue for comparison. The silicone should - dare I say, hopefully - ensure positive separation of the seal from the wad.

[silas oberhauser]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?

[Cap'n Morgan]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?


I don't think so. Make the tail long enough and you'll end up with an arrow, but it would still work. Check out "Von Witzleben's shotgun dart" on this page:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/historia5.html

However, there's probably little gained going any longer than 2 x the slug diameter. The original Brenneke is about 1.7 x diameter and is more or less the yardstick slugs are compared against. My own slug design is "overbore" without the wad attached (0.85 x diameter) and still shoots pretty well on their own. In fact, a properly designed slug, with the center of gravity well towards the front, will shoot better without a wad attached unless the wad is absolutely straight and concentric to the slug when it leaves the muzzle.

[longbow]

So is there a limit on how long the tail can be beforeit is pointless?

I'm with Cap'n Morgan if we are talking really long because yup, you basically get an arrow and if you look at modern smoothbore artillery rounds using discarding sabots, they are very dart/arrow like. However, with hollow base lead slugs (Foster style) I think there is an optimum length of around 1 1/2 to 2 times slug length. I think it was turbo1889 that posted information on best length to diameter ratio some time ago.

It is probably due to how the shock waves form along the slug but that is a guess on my part. I use slugs like Brenneke and AQ as my guidelines because I figure if there was a better length to use they would be using it and both perform very well as they are.

No direct knowledge here, just gut feel, copying commercial designs and of course it has to fit in a hull so there is the final length limit.

Having said that. I did make a mould up several years ago and it was to produce an RNFP wad slug with solid nose, deep hollow base and long thin skirt. The idea being good clean base edges and weight forward slug with as much weight as possible in the nose. It was about as long as a Brenneke with very thin skirt so was filled with hot melt glue to keep the skirt from collapsing. They were a nice snug fit into shotcups but did not shoot well at all.

I only recovered one from snow and it looks like it could be shot again and wads looked good. You can see it here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199096-Photos-of-Recovered-Slugs

4th from the left.

I don't have it in front of me but I am guessing it is 2x as long as diameter. Why didn't it work? I have no clue unless the only one I recovered was the only one that didn't suffer skirt damage or maybe it violated the length to diameter rule or...? I shot several but accuracy was so poor I didn't bother working on it again.

Just another slug shooting mystery I guess.

Longbow

[OnHoPr]

Interesting concept longbow. What type of wads do you put those in or do they just sit on top of a gas seal? I like the fact that they might be more consistent under launch in regards to irregular collapse such as in the conventional wads sometimes at least in my lead thrower. Same with the wad column of the pics in cap' n morgan's post. Are you shooting or just referring to smooth bores or are rifled tubes on the plate, also? Your post gave me an idea to use the hot glue in a multimetal wad. That is to fill the wad up to the desired level with hot glue according to setting up for a good roll or crimp with the Lee slug or etc. with the possibility of a thin nitro card on top of the glue. Then split the pedals just to the bottom of the slug. It might be a lot more consistent in the canting of irregular wad collapse. That BPI wad is pretty tough in the pedal area and especially the base of the wad where it really has beefy characteristics. That length of glue and wad would still have some cushioning characteristics also. The slug would also leave the wad when it exited the barrel. Do you have any concerns that the attached wad might throw a wobble to the back of the slug in revolutions in a rifled barrel or some type of a drag or offset weight to the smooth bore barrel?

[longbow]

So far my experiments have been for smoothbore as that is all I have. However, these glue wad slugs seem to obturate to fill the bore so it strikes me that they should work in rifled guns as well. Maybe I can arrange to send some to Ajay or someone who can run some tests to see how they work in rifled barrel. I know one guy locally who has (had?) a rifled Remington 870 I borrowed once. If he still has it I can probably borrow it again.

Yes, they are wad slugs and designed for standard Winchester wads. The TC solid original was quite a bit undersize as it was a mould Greg Sappington designed and I made the prototype. Greg wanted the slug sized to suit steel shot wads with thick petals. I "shimmed" the slugs for use in standard wads and the new slug is larger in diameter to suit typical Winchester white, pink or yellow wads.

Greg also came up with an idea for an attached wad slug using unslit wads with a slug pressed in. It worked pretty well for him but when I tried, I did not get terrific accuracy. A lot depends on fit and the type of wad. I didn't experiment with it much.

I have pretty limited access to reloading supplies so make many compromises and felt I was better off trying to make a Brenneke type slug that could be used in a variety of wads.

By the way, I finally weighed the slugs and they are 450 grs. The wads weigh between 40 and 50 grains with a bit of variation (maybe some bubbles in the glue?). I only had three wads to weigh as I had some trouble with mould release for the wads and also got a bit of mould release onto the bases of the slugs so the wads broke off when I pounded slugs out of forms. The mould core pin is adjustable though so I can make weight whatever I want ~ which for me will be the same as 0.678" RB's.

Your idea of using hot melt glue in a wad may have some merits though you might find silicone caulking or something similar easier to use and just as good. I have noticed that in many cases with bore size slugs that wad columns tilt or collapse causing the slug to tilt which damages it where I do not seem to have that problem using wad slugs. The wads must cushion or guide or both as wad slug damage in the bore does not seem a common as full bore slug damage in the bore.

I was hoping to get out to the range this weekend but that didn't happen and I am away for a week so it will be at least two weeks before I can load and test the new slugs and some old slugs to be retested.

Longbow

[hubel458]

Most accurate locked on base slugs in smooth, I've seen. is one the US-S EU Cartridge one and
two, the Brenekke OK. Both have the back as much as possible bigger than slug diameter,
so that air pressure can drag on the back a little for better stabilization. If back is
smaller it will wobble sometimes in the vacumn.

The US-S one has discarding petals on front so that back is out a ways after petals gone
while Brenekke has a real heavy seal on back bigger than slug dia.Ed

[longbow]

Good points Ed. I agree with the vacuum comment. I am sure that's why the finned slugs didn't do well ~ fins need air running over them to do any flight correction and with a nose the same diameter as fins, well, they are operating in a low pressure area due to shockwaves. I think with shuttlecock designs like Fosters and Brennekes the shockwaves hang back on the body some so there is still drag for correction. just my opinion of course.

I have been toying with using the 0.662" ball again and making a tapered glue skirt form so the skirt is a bit bigger towards the base but then keeping the ball/noise centered may be an issue.

Yeah that Brenneke OK has a profile similar to some solid lead slugs that James Gates sent me a drawing of. They appear to be a new take on an old idea sort of like the Blondeau slugs with a narrow waist and large "flanged" base on them.

Those US-S slug you posted photos of look very interesting but a bit difficult for a guy to make in his basement. Hmmm, I wonder if there is any plastic pipe/fittings that could be easily machined and split to become a sabot. Its got to be easy though because I am too lazy to work hard on each projectile! Better to admit defeat and go rifled gun.

Longbow

[nanuk]

if you ever see wind tunnel smoke trails over items, you may find that the tail has little to do with the wind...

as Mr. Hubel says, wide as possible, to get into the windstream.... but I'm not sure you can even get that wide without going very very wide.

I think there are more than two forces at work.
1) venturi effect. Low pressure over the tail due to the speed of the wind
2) wind simply being forced out of the way by the nose.
3) some other physical forces I don't understand regarding moving mass and gravity, coriolus effect etc....

I've had the opportunity to stick my hand out of an aircraft's rear door, and at 195kts, there was little wind on my hand until it got out to a few inches. this was about 40 feet from the nose.
I could open the door several inches before it would feel any wind and resist opening.
and the first inch or so, the door was actually PULLED out, as if in a vacuum.

the tails could be reacting to something in 3, that causes stability.

re: torn skirts/flyers.... I think the cause if more about the release from the barrel being unstable, as opposed to the effect of the damage of the skirt affecting flight after the fact. (at least until the velocity drops off significantly)

just thinking out loud here.

[Hogtamer]

It seems to me that a wad at the rear of the slug that is wider than the slug itself would act like the fletching on an arrow' correcting the windage of a wobbly projectile robbing it of speed. But just as one must match the spine (degree of stiffness) of an arrow to the bow, a smooth bore projectile must be tuned to the gun. It takes very little feather for a properly tuned arrow, but no amount of feather will stabilize a grossly spined arrow. As I am learning with big lead, fit matters above all for accuracy. Of course a fellow aka Longbow gets this, especially if his riser is not "center shot". I'm a recurve guy myself!

[longbow]

Center shot! Whats that? I should wood bows. No centershot there, just a little leather shelf.

When there is no sight window, spine is even more important and I find that wood arrows for my wood bows should be 5 to 10 lbs. lighter spine than for centershot bows.

[Hogtamer]

You guys are a different breed with those wormy little sticks you shoot! I use fence posts sharpened down on one end and nocked with an axe! You know Dean Torges? Oh, to keep on track do you "cast" your own broad heads or should we go to leather wall? Been Hogtamer over there for years.

[longbow]

We've had a few archery discussions here before and no harm done. Besides which it's my thread so wander away. I have said all I need to on the new wad slug unless someone has questions.

I won't know if it is good or bad until I send some downrange.

Back to sticks... wormy my butt! I don't mean my butt is wormy, I mean yew isn't the kind of wood to get wormy ~ too resinous. My little old yew stick has been in action for about 15 years now. I am about to retire it if I ever get my new black locust bow finished.

No, I don't cast my own broadheads though I have fabricated a few. Actually, I toyed with the idea of investment casting broadheads. Modern methods can produce pretty accurate parts. Anyway, too much factory stuff and competition for me, I just make stuff for my own use.

Don't know Dean but have read a lot of his articles.

I don't visit leatherwall much though I probably should. Still got stuff to learn. However, I like tinkering with things so Cast Boolits is where I spend most of my computer time. Much of my free time is spent making slug and boolit moulds and trying to get casting and shooting. I am not the world's best machinist (or even second best) but I get by and like machining so enjoy making tools, moulds and "stuff" in general.

I also make my own archery stuff like strings, quiver, arm guard, spine tester, taper tools, burnishers, whatever.

Take care.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

I've made arrows out of everything from rivercane to ramin dowels, even shot a few geologically cast stone points. Last fall made 42 yrs. of taking deer with bow. Never owned a wheel bow but a few longbows along the way, none that I made myself though. BTW, visited the 'wall a while back and still a bunch of 3" @ 20 yd groupers there that I musta missed while watching last years Olympic coverage!! I do make make my own Flemish strings and still shoot Zwickeys and old razor heads.

[turbo1889]

Along the lines of a slug where the tail is larger diameter then the head of the slug to give better drag stabilization when fired out of a smooth bore gun. One of the ideas I've had for a while is a "Half Sabot" slug where the nose of tail of the slug was full bore diameter with smaller diameter nose being surrounded by a sabot made from a couple strips of thin cardboard (like what they make cereal boxes out of) that should separate once the slug clears the muzzle.

Something along these lines:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6101/6287941064_abf12d3e8f_z.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5468/8798110285_8887af4e91_z.jpg



The first one is an experimental set-up for the 12ga. made using a Lee wad-slug for the head and 12ga. nitro cards for the tail. The second is a colorized CAD cross-view of such a slug design for the 410-bore size shotgun.

An idea I've had along the lines of where the discussion in this thread has gone so I thought I'd throw it out.

[longbow]

turbo:

I tried a similar type of slug a while ago and it didn't work well for me.

I had made up a prototype mould for Greg Sappington for one of his early designs intended to be used in a wad for rifled barrel so the slug was undersize for smoothbore. I figured a Brenneke style slug with screwed on attached wad made from 12 ga. nitro card wads would work then use cut off shotcup petals to "shim" slug. That didn't go so well. My suspicion is that the petals shifted during the jump through the forcing cone and possibly slid down the slug some.

Whatever the reason, I got poor accuracy and sticky extraction with a load that shouldn't have been a problem.

Your idea of two rather than four "shims" may work better. Also, I would recommend flat edges and sharp corners to keep the sabot halves from being able to slide down on the slug.

Some of my problem may have come from the fact that the slugs are not real tight in hulls so a thicker shim/sabot material that can compress a bit might solve that. I did not pursue it.

I have been away for a while and just got back so I will try to get to loading up these new slugs and field testing a few.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

I was also thinking a couple small pieces of white masking tape across the two joints of the cardboard shims to hold them tight around the slug until it gets through the forcing cone and into the bore. I think the friction of the trip down the bore with the white masking tape (which is pretty week tape that is easily torn anyway) would rough them up enough to ensure clean separation upon exiting the muzzle.

I also agree that there are a lot of problems with trying to get nitro cards attached to the base of slugs as a tail and get it done well enough to work. The best method I have found is with my 410 slug swagging die where I do the process inside the swagging die itself. Pure soft lead piece is swagged into the head shape first with a flat punch. Next I use a punch that is flat except for a sharp pin ground from cobalt drill rod mounted dead center. Then four nitro cards pressed in tight to the bottom of the slug head inside the bore of the swagging die to line them up exactly with the flat punch. Then the punch with the spike in the middle to punch a hole dead center in the nitro cards and usually at least one or two nitro cards come back out stuck to the spike pin in the center and I insert a ring-shank nail of appropriate size (I found much better results pressing in a ring-shank nail then using a screw) in that hole and then use the flat punch to insurt those nitro cards back into the bottom of the die and drive the nail dead center in the center holes punched and apply full swagging pressure to the assembly while it is all still held in the swagging die and everything is kept centered up and precise and only once completed is it ejected from the die as an assembled unit.

That does work and so far has provided me with the best 410-bore size heavy weight (180gr.) slugs I've been able to make so far but the process is very slow with all those steps and I can't make very many of them very fast.

So I think using a molded skirt to form the tail is about the only way to make a slug with a high production rate and for the 410-bore size the struggle is always to add as much weight as possible while still keeping the slug an aerodynamic drag stabilized design, the exact opposite situation of the larger bore guns so the extra weight from using a molded skirt is welcomed provided stability can be maintained.

And chance you would be willing to make me a push out style protop-type mold or two in a slightly simplified form for me? If so PM me so we can discuss details and price. Nothing fancy just something simple to test the concept and see if it would work or not before I consider dropping $250+ to have a quality custom mold made built for mass production in quantity (Probably blocks cut by Tom and then HB pin system by Erik).

[hubel458]

You could take 58cal solid base Minie slug like one I have, use our supersabots,screw sab ot base to slug, and probaly hard card screwed
on with base, and score the petals so they would
break off completely on leaving barrel. And sabot, card, and
screw would still set on a white felt wad. use plastic seal
and still rollcrimp perfectly. I'll get a picture on one sometime.

Could be as accurate as Brenekke at 50yds. That Minie would
be devastating killer. And there are cheap molds for 58cal around Ed

[jmort]

That is a good idea. I'm thinking of gluing .58 Minie into one of your sabots and scoring the petals as you suggest and using the card and screw. Will see how it compares.

71691

[longbow]

So far in my experience, card wads do not work well. Better to use punched felt, leather (expensive) or plastic... or a cushion leg like those nice slugs Ed has but the cushion leg has to be pretty substantial and resilient to avoid distorting and staying distorted. As I have mentioned before, even Gualandi DGS slug attached wads distort quite badly and they are far more sturdy than most.

I would be more inclined to follow Greg Sappington's suggestion of using a thick petal steel shot wad and press fitting a slug into that. He got some pretty good results from smoothbore that way and it is easier than cutting/scoring/screwing. Again, you do need a good wad and cushion leg to make that work.

I have gone the formed hot melt glue route because it is easy, I can get it locally and it works.... we will see how these slugs do shortly anyway.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, it looks like we have a winner! Still needs a bit of work but results were not bad at all.

I loaded up last night and headed to the range today. I shot:

- 22 of the new wad slugs
- 3 of the copper tube/round ball slugs
- 5 Lyman Foster loads

Results

New wad slugs:

- I blew one group so discounted it and there were a few random shots used up
- group TC1 = 4 1/4" group with four in 3" (5 shots at 50 yards)
- group TC2 = 5 1/2" group (5 shots at 50 yards)
- group TC3 = 4 1/2" group (4 shots at 50 yards)

All the above were loaded into Federal plastic hunting hulls with paper basewad with 37.5 grs. SR4756, 1 nitro card wad under the slug; Pacific Verelite wad; Winchester 209 primer

Copper tube slugs (bottom left photo here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184206-New-Slug-Family):

- 3 shots in diagonal of 14 3/4" at 50 yards (I had six but decided to only shoot the 3 and unload the rest)

Load was 32 grs. Blue Dot; Win white wad gas seal; two nitro card wads; Winchester 209 primer, Federal plastic hunting hull with paper basewad. I had high hopes for these as they balanced well with CG well forward, had nice hard copper bearing bands and they looked very cool but... no go twice now.

Lyman Fosters:

- 15" group at 50 yards with four in 7"

Load was 31 grs. Unique; AA Red with petals cut off; two nitro card wads; one turned down penny; Winchester 209 primer, Federal plastic hunting hull with paper basewad. I had been advised that accuracy would be improved by using a copper washer under the slug so I turned penny's down to bore diameter as I couldn't find any copper washers. Possibly a more solid wad column would have helped but I have spent far too much time failing to get Lyman Fosters to give even reasonable accuracy so this is my last go!

I recovered one TC slug with glue skirt from the 100 yard berm. The slug is in good shape except the "skirt" has flared. Maybe not real obvious in the photos but only two wads survived without any cut petals Most have at least one petal cut and many had two cut. Photos attached. you can see the line on the petals where the sharp edge expanded out to teh plastic.

The shallow hollow base "skirt" is 0.01" thick at the edge, tapering thicker and is only 0.130" deep. I am actually a bit surprised that a skirt that thick yielded but so it did. I will turn down the core pin to make a smaller HB with even thicker skirt.

For my original design, I used a flat based slug with a screw starter hole cast in it then ran in a C'sunk #10 wood screw then cast the glue skirt on. That worked quite well but was a bit time consuming. The hollow base is simply to provide more glue surface and to prevent easy shearing of the glue bond to a flat base. A smaller hollow base should solve the flaring issue. If not then I will make a protrusion on the base of the slug to replace the screw and give the glue more hold.

This glue skirt broke off at the 100 meter berm. I tried using a vice and pliers to remove some skirts and had trouble doing it.

These had a slightly shorter glue skirt than those in the first post as those were a bit too long for 1 1/8 oz shotcups.

Anyway, there you have it. I call this a success and will make a few minor changes then retest. The groups are running a little larger than my round ball groups but once I solve the shearing petals they should shrink some. Then comes 100 yard testing!

Also, I think these may work well in a rifled barrel as the glue skirt obturates to fill the wad/bore very well so should engage rifling well too. I will have to arrange to get that tested as well.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Hi Longbow.

It seems we're pretty much on the same track, even though our designs are quite different. I think 4-5" groups at fifty yards are pretty good, no matter how you look at it. The slugs I had in mind when I started, are meant for driven wild boar, and ranges are typically from "self defense" to 25-30 yards. Both our designs will easily accomplish that.

I have made a change to the epoxy wads and added eight ribs to make the wad full bore and self-centering. At the same time I did away with the gas seal and instead relies on a 1/2" felt wad under the slug for sealing. The previous design, using a glued-on gas seal would shred both the seal and the crimp on the hull.

Molding the wads are actually pretty easy once you get the hang of it. I use a mold with nine cavities and mixes a batch of fifty grams epoxy (West System) using my electronic loading weight to get the right amount of resin and hardener. The mix is then poured into the mold and after three or four hours the wads can be pushed out and glued to the base of the slug and the process can be repeated.

Of course there's still the problem with the elusive 100 yards group. I'm in the process of making a new mold which is much closer to the original Brenneke design. The base cavity is the same as the old design (since I'm using the top part of the old mold), but the new mold will have twelve helical fins instead of eight straight as in the previous design. Also, I have duplicated the Brenneke nose design, as this may have some influence on the airflow over the slug - At this point I'll grasp at any straw to improve accuracy [smilie=1:

Pictures to follow in a few days...

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

As always, I will be interested to see how your new slug performs.

I will be casting some more of my revised design this week but I may not get any more testing done for a couple of weeks. The range is hosting a shoot or two so is closed to general shooting for the next week or two.

Yes, 100 yards is the true test and the range I originally set out to conquer. haven't got there yet... well, the slugs have gotten there but not all in nice tight groups.

This is getting interesting now! have you heard form Chicken thief recently? I haven't seen any new posts. Curious how his slugs are doing too.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

The new helical rib mold is about finished - Did a test casting today and the mold still needs a little tweaking and polishing before casting a larger batch, but I did manage to get a handful of usable slugs. Once the mold is ready I'll concentrate on the wad mold; It will get a work-over which should improve the base of the wads, making them perfectly flat. Testing in a few days...

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5882/8z83.jpg

[longbow]

Now that is a nice looking slug! I am jealous! I mean those really do look good. Mine are pretty plain Jane compared to those.

If you get good fit and a good wad on those I am sure they will fly well and give good accuracy. No reason they shouldn't do as well as factory Brenneke's.

Yes, 4" to 5" is acceptable accuracy at 50 yards though as mentioned, good round ball loads do a bit better. The real test will be 75 and 100 yards!

If the 4" to 5" groups hold up at longer ranges then group size should be under 12" at 100 yards. Maybe not stellar but at this point, I wouldn't complain! I would be doing back flips if I got 6" groups at 100 yards!

I have cast but won't get to test 40 more slugs with slight modifications, for a couple of weeks ~ no lead "skirt" just a shallow conical cavity to aid with glue adhesion and slightly larger meplat.

I will be looking forward to your next test results which should be in before mine.

Good luck!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Just a few words from the Research Department. It's been awhile, but I'm still learning new stuff about slugs.

Two Extremely important things I learned over the last few weeks:

Do not - I repeat - do not go to low on the weight when working up a slow powder load. I started out with 30 grains Steel behind my new 1-1/8 slug and experienced a "blooper" on the very first shot - the shot had a distinct double report. I checked the barrel for obstructions and found nothing, but then I examined the muzzle end closer... Lo and behold; a bulge in the lower barrel just an inch from the muzzle!

This is what I think happened: The powder didn't ignite properly, but enough did ignite to launch the slug into the barrel where it stuck when it encountered the choke restriction. Then the rest of the powder ignited, sending a high speed shock wave down the barrel. This caused a pressure to build up behind the slug and before it could accelerate again the damage was done... If only I had paid more attention to Turbo 1889's recommendations on minimum loads for STEEL powder... :-(

The gun still shoots fine, but I'm using the top barrel for testing now :wink:

The second thing I learned was that the slug should have absolutely no play in the barrel. My first slug design had a diameter of .730 and shot fine. The new helical slug had a diameter of .720 and was all over the paper. This was quite a disappointment as I had high hope in the new design. I then tried enlarging the ribs to .732 and cast a few slugs for testing. Groups immediately improved - I only loaded a few rounds, but things look promising.

Along the way I made a new roll crimper to allow for the more pointed design. A sort of case trimmer is also on the drawing board. Apart from the incident with my old Krieghoff shotgun it has been quite fun so far. I think I have both the slug- and wad design down pat now. All that remains is casting a new batch of slugs, work up a load and then it's off for the 100m range...


http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5691/lsd3.jpg

[Hogtamer]

Great looking projectiles Cap'n! Anxious to see final results. Sorry about the barrel.

[jmort]

"I think I have both the slug- and wad design down pat now."

I should say so! Those are slick professional looking slugs. Being a mere mortal, I'm staying away from Steel and magnum primers and sticking with Plain-Jane loads with Blue Dot and Unique.

[longbow]

I'm with jmortimer on sticking with good old Blue Dot, Unique and now SR4756 which also seems to do well. Tried and true powders.

And yes, those are pretty darned nice looking slugs for sure!

I am with you on no play in the bore Cap'n Morgan. With full bore slugs I am a believer in a slight interference fit so the slug has to swage a bit. Any time I have tried loose fitting full bore slugs accuracy has been poor.

Almost contradicting that is that my testing with wad slugs has given best accuracy with almost slip fit slug/wad combo.

It is all black magic I say!

A little bulge in a barrel isn't too bad and you can probably cut the barrels back to cylinder bore... or possibly have the bulge swaged back ~ there are tools to do that. I blew up a shotgun once, not much fun. I posted that experience to warn others. Seemingly minor changes can have large effects.

Anyway, looking forward to your test results. those are looking real nice.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

Blue Dot has a nasty habit of not igniting in cold weather. That was one of the reasons that STEEL was made. You also have to use the Federal 209A mag primer.

[turbo1889]

No powder is idiot proof, and I doubt there ever will be one that is. Yes, some are more temperamental then others, and each have their own personalities. STEEL doesn't like to be run at anything less then full out magnum loads, Blue Dot doesn't like extreme cold, Longshot spikes aggressively and unpredictably at the top end. Whether book load or home brew it isn't quite black magic but it certainly isn't a rigid hard science, more like economics which is a soft science with general rules of thumb but has more instinct, feel, and statistical analysis to it then hard math formulas.

[longbow]

I have read many comments about Blue Dot not liking cold but so far have had little trouble with it. I have shot slug loads down to -15 degrees C without issue. Not arguing that under some circumstances there may be problems, but so far I haven't run into them. In fact, I have had best success with Blue Dot under heavyish slugs so far.

I haven't tried Steel or Longshot and a few others partly because I have little load data and partly because they are not readily available here.

I tend to follow published or proven safe load data and am not too experimental in developing my own load data other than substituting equal weight slug for shot weight. I do deviate a bit but only after checking multiple sources so I have a good idea of what to expect and then start at the light end of load data.

I also have "sources" I trust and follow their suggestions.

One of the main reasons I tend to stick to "standard" weight slugs of 1 oz. to about 1 3/8 oz. is that there is a large amount of slug load data for those weights. There is little slug data I have found for slug weights over about 600 grs.

turbo is right that it isn't black magic but it would be nice to have pressure test equipment to avoid surprises because they can certainly happen if you are not careful and I don't mean just overcharging. Some small changes can have big effects. This is not metallic cartridge reloading and not as predictable for working up loads.

Play ~ but play safe!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Long time no see!

In case some of you were wondering what happened to the helical Brenneke slug project, it has suffered a minor setback. The mold had a slightly negative draft which impaired the release of the slug. I decided to try to correct it, but managed to ruin the mold instead. A new and improved mold is in the making, but work, and a lot of other projects I had on the back burner, took priority instead.

Still, the project is not dead, and I hope to have a new mold finished soon. Stay tuned...

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

indeed, long time no see! I have been distracted by a variety of things but am hoping to get back in the saddle again shortly. I have a couple dozen of the new version slugs cast and waiting for skirts then I will load and shoot. So far it has been going well so it these do well at 50 yards it is time to stretch the range out to 100 yards and see how they do.

I will be watching for your posts as well. That is an impressive slug you have!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

In loading shotshells I take some liberties with recipes. I might change a primer or use a charge that is some small amount larger or smaller simply because that's what the bushing drops.

However I am always in the 'mid range' for any given load so I figure I'm safe. IN my entire career of loading shotshells I have had two squibs, and they were from the first box I loaded on MY DL366 progressive. None ever in .410 due to the single stage loader. Same with the slugs I know there is no squibs since they were loaded one step at a time on the DL266. The use of a 1oz ball in a trap load meant for 1 1/8oz of shot is not going to cause any problems, and if the crimp closes right then it even looks good.

I feel you should understand what you are doing in this hobby. If you don't, and you want to play on the limits there maybe consequences.

Randy