How fast is needed?

[mstarling]

Guys,

I have a rifle built w an FN Mauser action, 22" Douglas barrel, and Timney trigger on a composite stock. Is chambered for .416 Aagard which is a .376 Steyr case necked up to .416 and the shoulder improved. Shoots jacketed projectiles well in the 4,000 pfe range with 350 gr Speer MagTips. Plenty enough for anything in the Americas.

Have worked up a cast load with a 400 gr NEI GC design cast in WW, lubed w Carnuba Red, and propelled by AA5744. Consistently is one of the most accurate cast rifle loads I've ever used ... doing clover leafs at 100 yards.

Only chronos at 1600 fps for abt 2200 pfe. Additional velocity will not add much shock and the additional penetration is not likely to be necessary for deer or piggies.

Nonetheless, do you hunters recommend that I work the load up faster for hunting?

[454PB]

Not for any game on this continent.

[NVScouter]

A .416g 400g boolit has to have an awesome SD. I'd bet you breakfast an elk chest shot would poop that thing out at 200y.

[DeanWinchester]

Might oughta work up a small batch to a little faster velocity, just in case you find yourself surrounded by genetically modified, zombie Kodiak bears. Other than that, it should be more than enough for anything that walks on this side of the planet.

[Doc_Stihl]

If I was carrying a 400gr .416 @ 1550 I'd feel plenty loaded for anything in the lower 48.

[felix]

I' not sure anymore, Dean! BruceB's talk of those extraordinary Bison up there in the Canadian woods can get cranky too. ... felix

[BruceB]

Actually, guys, I think the greatest benefit of the extra velocity is the flatter trajectory.

As many .45-70 shooters can attest, a 400-grain or heavier bullet penetrates until next week, and at under 2000 fps we can use fairly-soft alloys for expansion AS WELL AS penetration.

The original ballistics of the .404 (400 RN @ 2150) were ample for 200-yard work using the 3-leaf express sights, and the .416 Rigby with 400@2600 shoots just about like an oversize .30-06/180...except for the RECOIL.

I did develop a .416 load with the 300-grain X bullet at a flat 3000 fps..... THAT was miserable to fire, but it would have been a primo elk load with its trajectory much like a .270/130. Of course, it would have sufficed for almost anything in any game field on earth...

My cast-bullet .416 Rigby "hunting load" is the softpointed RCBS 416-350, actual weight around 365 grains, loaded to 2050 fps. This load reaches out comfortably to 200 yards, and that's as far as I choose to shoot at game these days. The load groups nicely around 1" at 100 yards, so it's VERY capable.

I did work the .404 up to 400 @ 2400 fps as time went on, but again the benefit was mostly in flatter trajectory.

I sure don't regret using the big .40 rifles on the bison. They are bigger than much African game, and the rifles were built for animals of that size. As one might expect, the rifles and properly-selected ammunition worked perfectly for the purpose.

[runfiverun]

with a s/d of a 41 cal boolit at 400 grs penetration is not going to be an issue.
but like bruce says speed flattens out the trajectory.
limiting your distance is a way of compensating for drop you just have to employ too much kentuck elevation in the field with a rainbow trajectory.
unless you have excellent distance judgment and repeatable sights and time.
hits become a guessing game when you have to factor in height and wind.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with BruceB also; if a flatter trajectory is needed bump it up to 2000 fps with a medium burning powder. However for deer and piggies I would opt for a 300 gr GC'd bullet at 1800 - 2000 fps.

Larry Gibson

[mstarling]

Indeed the Rigby with a 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps shoots pretty much like a 30-06 with a whole lot more impact energy. Can tell you that it kills the heck out of Cape Buffalo. That rifle is just a bit much to wag around the hills though.

Quickload indicates that I should be able to get the 400 gr cast bullet to 1900 fps w AA5744 and almost 2000 fps with H335 at about 40k psi. May try it.

Sure do like the groups I'm getting though:

http://www.mstarling.com/Album/416_grp_030210.jpg

The group at the center of the diamond is the .416 Aagaard. The group in the top of the diamond is a 6,8 SPC II group. The extra shots on the target are the last round before the last scope change to move the impact point for the groups.

.376/.416 Steyr is another name for the .416 Aagaard. Rifle is marked that way so that I can get ammo into Africa without a full .416 Aagaard headstamp ... as properly headstamped brass is not available.

[MBTcustom]

Actually, guys, I think the greatest benefit of the extra velocity is the flatter trajectory.

As many .45-70 shooters can attest, a 400-grain or heavier bullet penetrates until next week, and at under 2000 fps we can use fairly-soft alloys for expansion AS WELL AS penetration.

The original ballistics of the .404 (400 RN @ 2150) were ample for 200-yard work using the 3-leaf express sights, and the .416 Rigby with 400@2600 shoots just about like an oversize .30-06/180...except for the RECOIL.

I did develop a .416 load with the 300-grain X bullet at a flat 3000 fps..... THAT was miserable to fire, but it would have been a primo elk load with its trajectory much like a .270/130. Of course, it would have sufficed for almost anything in any game field on earth...

My cast-bullet .416 Rigby "hunting load" is the softpointed RCBS 416-350, actual weight around 365 grains, loaded to 2050 fps. This load reaches out comfortably to 200 yards, and that's as far as I choose to shoot at game these days. The load groups nicely around 1" at 100 yards, so it's VERY capable.

I did work the .404 up to 400 @ 2400 fps as time went on, but again the benefit was mostly in flatter trajectory.

I sure don't regret using the big .40 rifles on the bison. They are bigger than much African game, and the rifles were built for animals of that size. As one might expect, the rifles and properly-selected ammunition worked perfectly for the purpose.
Seriously, that would hairlip ya!

[quilbilly]

Having hunted deer, and elk with muzzleloaded cast boolits for the last 25 plus years (add in some of the buffalo from our herd), I long ago decided high velocity is overrated except, as BruceB noted, for flatter trajectory. One of the first things I did when I started casting for my modern rifles was to do terminal ballistics tests in wet phone books with a sheet of plywood to simulate a rib bone at 40 yards. I was amazed at the results from any of my boolits having a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps that were contrary to conventional wisdom but would make Elmer Keith smile. Nowadays, the only modern rifles I have left that still shoot jacketed are the ones I ask to hit varmints at 300 plus yards.

[jhalcott]

With the availability of modern laser range finders guesstimating distance is ratjher easy. Point and shoot scopes are getting better all the time. That 400 gr @1600 fps should be easy to lob into the side of any animal inside of 200 yards combined with a good laser range finder!

[Smoke4320]

I just hope I can work some groups with my rifles to shoot those kind of cast boolit groups..

Thats just fine !!

[waksupi]

Before chasing the velocity goat, look at ballistics tables. You can see it takes about a 300 fps gain in velocity to make much difference on trajectory. Is the shoulder punishment worth the gain?

[nanuk]

Before chasing the velocity goat, look at ballistics tables. You can see it takes about a 300 fps gain in velocity to make much difference on trajectory. Is the shoulder punishment worth the gain?

a 45/70 400gr shoots plenty flat to 150yds, when pushed to an amazing 1300fps.

[Von Gruff]

I found similar velocity levels with cast in my 404 Jeffery. Custom Hoch 350gn bullet to over 2400fps with 87gn H4350

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/404Jeffery073.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/404Jeffery073.jpg.html)

with 74gn Varget taking it to 2365 and excellent accuracy but the real pearler was 1900fps with 63gn H4350 with inder 1/2 inch groups at 55 yds with aperture sights. When I took it on the hill after goats and I did get quite a few of them I used a lowly 1500fps load from 21gn Red Dot.
Load testing before sight setting after final results
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/404%20Jeffery/010.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/404%20Jeffery/010.jpg.html)

This 1900fps load should be up to just about any task within reason.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/404%20Jeffery/002.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/404%20Jeffery/002.jpg.html)

[NLS1]

a 45/70 400gr shoots plenty flat to 150yds, when pushed to an amazing 1300fps.
Awesome! Good quote!


I found similar velocity levels with cast in my 404 Jeffery. Custom Hoch 350gn bullet to over 2400fps with 87gn H4350

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/404Jeffery073.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/404Jeffery073.jpg.html)

with 74gn Varget taking it to 2365 and excellent accuracy but the real pearler was 1900fps with 63gn H4350 with inder 1/2 inch groups at 55 yds with aperture sights. When I took it on the hill after goats and I did get quite a few of them I used a lowly 1500fps load from 21gn Red Dot.
Load testing before sight setting after final results
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/404%20Jeffery/010.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/404%20Jeffery/010.jpg.html)

This 1900fps load should be up to just about any task within reason.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/404%20Jeffery/002.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/404%20Jeffery/002.jpg.html)

Love the pictures of those 404 loads with boolits! And great shooting! That 1900 fps load sounds doable.

Dan

[Rattus58]

Actually, guys, I think the greatest benefit of the extra velocity is the flatter trajectory.

As many .45-70 shooters can attest, a 400-grain or heavier bullet penetrates until next week, and at under 2000 fps we can use fairly-soft alloys for expansion AS WELL AS penetration.

The original ballistics of the .404 (400 RN @ 2150) were ample for 200-yard work using the 3-leaf express sights, and the .416 Rigby with 400@2600 shoots just about like an oversize .30-06/180...except for the RECOIL.

I did develop a .416 load with the 300-grain X bullet at a flat 3000 fps..... THAT was miserable to fire, but it would have been a primo elk load with its trajectory much like a .270/130. Of course, it would have sufficed for almost anything in any game field on earth...

My cast-bullet .416 Rigby "hunting load" is the softpointed RCBS 416-350, actual weight around 365 grains, loaded to 2050 fps. This load reaches out comfortably to 200 yards, and that's as far as I choose to shoot at game these days. The load groups nicely around 1" at 100 yards, so it's VERY capable.

I did work the .404 up to 400 @ 2400 fps as time went on, but again the benefit was mostly in flatter trajectory.

I sure don't regret using the big .40 rifles on the bison. They are bigger than much African game, and the rifles were built for animals of that size. As one might expect, the rifles and properly-selected ammunition worked perfectly for the purpose.The advantage of a heavy lead bullet, even at 1400 or less, is that it doesn't require speed for energy or expansion. The heavy lead bullet, once launched, provides its own power of penetration and expansion, stays generally righted all the way through most game. I'm speaking of pure lead or slightly hardened lead of course. I saw a video recently by a gentleman goes by Hickcox... where he tried to smash a hard cast lead bullet .... and that was an eye opener for me. I don't think that I'd be thinking of a "hard cast" for anything here... Elephant and a really irritated carnivore... might be the exception... :grin:

[338RemUltraMag]

I had a mold made to drop at 450 gr for my 416 Rigby so I could shoot full power loads at 2200-2300 fps. It is a GC design and I have yet to take it to the range but am looking forward to it. The boolit in the middle is a 165 gr 30 cal Ranch Dog...

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130204_222409.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130122_183456.jpg

[NLS1]

I had a mold made to drop at 450 gr for my 416 Rigby so I could shoot full power loads at 2200-2300 fps. It is a GC design and I have yet to take it to the range but am looking forward to it. The boolit in the middle is a 165 gr 30 cal Ranch Dog...

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130204_222409.jpg

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/gun%20and%20game%20pics/20130122_183456.jpg

Wow! Just look at that boolit! I am not sure if I have need for a 416 rigby, but with a boolit like that, I may just figure something out.

[338RemUltraMag]

If I had it to do over with I would have put a real crimp groove on it, but wanted to give myself some leeway for throat fit.

[TXGunNut]

I like Larry's idea about the lighter boolit but your rifle seems to like the 400 grainer. Sounds like an awesome rifle. I'd say you were good to go for the lower 48 until we have a huntable population of T-Rex.

[Von Gruff]

If I had it to do over with I would have put a real crimp groove on it, but wanted to give myself some leeway for throat fit.
I have a crimp groove on my 350gn 404 bullet and even the 2400fps loads didn't shift the bullet in the neck on the cartridges in the magazine so I never crimp now. Can you just turn the mouth under the rear edge of a DB if the coal works for that?

[338RemUltraMag]

I have a crimp groove on my 350gn 404 bullet and even the 2400fps loads didn't shift the bullet in the neck on the cartridges in the magazine so I never crimp now. Can you just turn the mouth under the rear edge of a DB if the coal works for that?

Yup I can do that, like I said I need to get it out and shooting. I finally found a range close to home so I will be going soon.

[Lead Fred]

The optimum speed for a 45/70 is 1450fps. Ive slowed even the 30-30 down to that.
The faster you go after that, the less meat penetration you get.

I use flat nosed ranch dog molds for both of these, and they fly nice, and group well.

and my arm dont get black and blue no mo