9mm cast lead question

[Blintersifrid]

OK, I give up.
I've looked and searched, but my Search-Fu is weak.
I cannot find the answer, and I cannot be the only one with this problem. (Or a variation on it!)

The setup:
Like everyone else, I cannot get the reloading components that I want.
I managed to get two cases of pistol primers by being in the right place at the right time [smilie=w: , so I'm good on primers for a long time. I have plenty of cases sized and waiting. I do not have a surplus of powder, but I have enough for now. The Wife has forbade casting (I'm still working on her about it, though!), but I can get SOME boolits by ordering and waiting.

Here's my problem:
My C9 likes fatter boolits than I can order easily. With the ones I've used before (Missouri Bullet's 125gr TC @ .356, BHN 18), I got keyholes like crazy with my "starting" load of red dot. Backing down the charge, I got function, but still wasn't truly happy with the load. My gun seems to have a .356 bore, which means that I should be running .357-sized boolits, right? Everywhere I look, and assuming that you can get them at all, commercial boolits are sized either .356 for 9mm or .358 for 38/357M use.

Here are my questions:
1) Would I be okay running .358 in a .356 bore, or do I *need* to resize?

2) Is BHN 12 appropriate for use over 3.5-4.0gr of Red Dot in a 9mm case (whether I resize the boolits or not)?

3) If not, how do I harden the boolits so that I *can* use them?

Reference Material:
I am specifically looking at ordering these (125gr .358 TC):
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=50&category=5&secondary=9&keywords=

But I would be willing to try these (125gr .358 RNFP):
http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=163&category=5&secondary=9&keywords= instead - especially since that is basically the profile of the mould that I am looking at for use *when* (Not "if," I'm being positive about my ability to sway The Wife.) I start casting.

I want to stay at 125 only because I am already familiar with the loading. They also offer a .358-diameter 105gr TC that I'd be willing to use ( http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=156&category=5&secondary=9&keywords= ), except that I have no idea what loading to use with it!


--------------------------

I need to know what I can do here, since The Wife has decided that she wants to learn to shoot. This means, now that you can't find .22 ammo for a price less than a limb or two, that I will be going through a LOT more 9mm than I would have been a year ago.

Thanks all for your help.

'Sifrid

[Shiloh]

I run .358 in 9mm bores. One slugs at .3562 and the other at .3565. Commercial cast or my cast boolits sized at .356 pattern at 50' Those are the ones that hit the target. .358 holds 3 inches at 25 yards. I also shoot the LEE 125 gr RF sized at .358. These seat deeper in the case, and drop at 129 gr. I loaded at just under the start load and stuck with 3.8 gr Unique after working up. Feeds, cycles, brass is close by and most importantly, accurate.

Shiloh

Shiloh

[gefiltephish]

Use .358 if they will chamber reliably in YOUR gun. i.e. make sure you can clear a live cartridge when necessary.

[runfiverun]

i'd just work the wife over by having her clean the lead out of the barrels.
then explain why you need to make your own to get things right.
shrug.

[454PB]

One thing to watch for with a bigger boolit is the case sizing it down. When I use softer alloys, I use a home made "M" die to open up the case and prevent the problem.

[Blintersifrid]

To those PMing me: OK, I get the message! I'll order the sizing die! Sheesh!

To everyone: Thank you for your responses. I guess the only question left is whether 12BHN is hard enough for the aforementioned 3.5-4.0 grains of Red Dot. Does anyone have a clue of pressures for loads in that range?

Thank you all, again, for your help.

'Sifrid

[MtGun44]

In finding leading and tumbling with commercial hard .356 boolits lubed with
melted crayola crayons you have become the 2,700,000th person to verify that
a heck of a lot of the time, this combo really sucks in 9mm Luger. ;-)

12 BHN should be fine, as long as you don't manage to size it down when
seating it into the case. Make a test case, seat and then pull and measure.
Reread post #5.

You are using a micrometer that reads to .0001" rather than a caliper, right?

Use a .358 boolit of a good design and lube and you will be fine.

This may help.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

+1 on R5R's comment about letting SWMBO clean the bore of lead a time or two. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Shiloh]

To those PMing me: OK, I get the message! I'll order the sizing die! Sheesh!

To everyone: Thank you for your responses. I guess the only question left is whether 12BHN is hard enough for the aforementioned 3.5-4.0 grains of Red Dot. Does anyone have a clue of pressures for loads in that range?
Thank you all, again, for your help.

'Sifrid

I had a guy make an oversize powder funnel.

Shiloh

[Blintersifrid]

In finding leading and tumbling with commercial hard .356 boolits lubed with
melted crayola crayons you have become the 2,700,000th person to verify that
a heck of a lot of the time, this combo really sucks in 9mm Luger. ;-)

12 BHN should be fine, as long as you don't manage to size it down when
seating it into the case. Make a test case, seat and then pull and measure.
Reread post #5.

You are using a micrometer that reads to .0001" rather than a caliper, right?

Use a .358 boolit of a good design and lube and you will be fine.

This may help.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

+1 on R5R's comment about letting SWMBO clean the bore of lead a time or two. :bigsmyl2:

Bill
You know, I read that thread a while ago and more or less completely forgot about it when I ran into this problem! Thank you for the reminder.

I *had* been sure about the bore size, but now I'm not. Thanks a TON![smilie=b:

The micrometer is on the way - I ordered it last night - along with a box of roundball that (once I upset it so it's big enough, since the only size they had that wasn't obscenely too big was .315) I can use to be ABSOLUTELY sure of my bore diameter. Since my last results were suspect, I will start from scratch.

In my defense, I did not think that 18 BHN was too hard for 9mm boolits - considering that most of the ones I'd seen for sale were 20-24 :shock: - and was under the impression that Thompson's Blue Angel Lube was good product. (Of course, now that I see what "good product" means to people who have a whole lot more experience at this than I do, I'm revising that image a bit. I was going to just use LLA, but now I'm looking at starting with 45/45/10 for tumbling and will probably be making some Ben's Red when/if I get a lubrisizer.) Part of my confusion is that the bullets I had bought work fine SOME of the time, but not ALL of the time.

With the 4.0 (by volume through a Lee Autodisk) Red Dot "starting" load my manual lists, I remember them working fine in my 995 carbine (though, since I only shot one box through it, I'm not ENTIRELY positive on that), but acting up in my C9 pistol (of which I have a DEFINITE memory). By backing down to 3.5, I recall them behaving in the C9, but not being a "really nice" loading. I do not recall any problems from either firearm when I used 6.0 or 6.1 (again, by volume) of Blue Dot, except the loads were messy and left a lot of "charcoal flakes" in the guns - the C9 especially.

I apologize for the non-specific nature of the above paragraph, but I have not been shooting in over two years (medical problems that seem to have finally been ironed out, not ENTIRELY to the good) and have not loaded any lead in almost three - longer for the Blue Dot loads. I'm sure of the Red Dot loading, because I checked my manual last night and sorted boxes in the last few days. I'm out of the Blue Dot loads, though, so I don't remember that last decimal place.

I've got some of the .356-diameter, 18BHN on order, and will be trying Red Dot loads between 3.5 and 4.0 to see if I can tune the load to something that I like better, but see this as more of a stopgap due to not knowing better and suffering from a bad market than anything else. Of course, in an ideal world, I'd be able to try different powders, too, but what can you do now nowadays?

I WANT to make my own boolits, and will be working towards that end. I figured that knowing what worked well before I started pouring would save time and aggravation in the long run.

Thank you for your responses so far.

'Sifrid

[ku4hx]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]The Wife has decided that she wants to learn to shoot. This means, now that you can't find .22 ammo for a price less than a limb or two, that I will be going through a LOT more 9mm than I would have been a year ago.

My wife made the same decision too and let me tell you it's been a real joy having her in on the whole process. She shoots between 150-170 rounds per range session, and she began to notice my additional time prepping, casting and loading. She even complained a bit which I found quite normal and the truth was she was missing me. That's not a bad thing.

But the thing is, as she became a more proficient shooter (she's a natural at being a gun shopper and buyer) she began to realize what it was taking to "feed her habit". That was good thing too. She now has a much greater appreciation of the process from picking up brass all the way through to loading her magazines. This was a step I decided she needed to take and she fell right into the process and now is wanting to contribute in the purchasing of components. She's gotten a real understanding of what's required "cradle to grave" so to speak in the casting, loading and shooting arena.

Like I said, getting my wife involved in the entire process was one of the smartest things I ever did. Next I plan to introduce her to the joys of the [single stage press] depriming process since I clean and deprime prior to loading.

[Blintersifrid]

I'm hoping that my wife makes the same transition that yours did. Her decision to start learning was a sudden (but very welcome!) change in attitude just after our state decided that we weren't safe enough and made us all "NY SAFE."
'Sifrid

[MtGun44]

Good luck on the health issues. having the better half enjoy the sport is
like gold in the bank. Take care of her and make it fun. Probably spend
a lot of time with a .22 until SHE asks to shoot something bigger. Guiding
beats pushing.

Frankly, I still think 18 BHN at .356 is likely to be too hard and too small.


Bill

[Blintersifrid]

Good luck on the health issues. having the better half enjoy the sport is
like gold in the bank. Take care of her and make it fun. Probably spend
a lot of time with a .22 until SHE asks to shoot something bigger. Guiding
beats pushing.

Frankly, I still think 18 BHN at .356 is likely to be too hard and too small.


Bill

Oh, trust me, if I knew a month ago what I know now, I'd have ordered the .358-diameter, BHN 12 stuff instead! Unfortunately, the line is a month long and they're not letting people cancel or modify ('cause I'd swap out the .356s for the .358s in a flash if they'd let me!) orders for that reason. But I gotta do SOMETHING with 1000 of the darn things - and if that means that I make up a ton of blue dot carbine loads, then that's what I'll have to do.

This, I file under "live and learn." I will not repeat the mistake any time soon.

As for the Wife, she's got first dibs on the .22 rifles (and the .22 ammo) until she asks for the 9mm carbine. Which I hope will be soon!

'Sifrid

[PS Paul]

To those PMing me: OK, I get the message! I'll order the sizing die! Sheesh!

To everyone: Thank you for your responses. I guess the only question left is whether 12BHN is hard enough for the aforementioned 3.5-4.0 grains of Red Dot. Does anyone have a clue of pressures for loads in that range?

Thank you all, again, for your help.

'Sifrid

Ha ha! Reminds me of the poster about the cops beatin' a guy with the caption, "Pretecting and serving the s*** out of you". These fellas are helpin' the s*** out of you! he he. GREAT group of helpful folks here. The best, actually......

Don't have exactly the needed info, but the Lyman CB manual shows Lyman #2 alloy with a 120 gr. RN and 3.0 gr red dot at 25,100 CUP and 3.9 gr. red dot at 32,200 CUP. #2 alloy is close to 12 BHN.

Hope this helps...... FWIW, I cast Lee's 124 gr. TL TC boolit with alloy around 10 BHN and it shoots wonderfully in an employee's Glock. Most accurate projectile he has shot in the thing EVER. Even compared to jaxktd. size them to .358 and lube in a Lyman 450 and find the TL grooves DO hold adequate lube in HIS ;istol with this boolit.

Good luck and welcome!
PSP

[Blintersifrid]

Update time:
Still have not received the shipment from Missouri Bullet Company (though a box of 124gr plated I ordered from X-Treme Bullets came in last night), but got something better: The Wife gave permission for me to start casting, so long as it is either: a) completely outside the house or b) somewhere else entirely. [smilie=w::happy dance:

The Wife and I went to the range Tuesday night. She used my grandfather's "Revelation" single-shot .22 rifle - her first time with a live firearm ever, BTW - and I ran some of my old cartridges with the MBC 125gr .356-diameter slugs over 3.5 of Red Dot through my pistol. It turned out that I had three boxes of these tucked away in my ammo stash. I also, in preparation for the new stock that will be arriving, broke down a box of them and reloaded with what was supposed to be 3.8 of Red Dot.

That experience taught me that my adjustable charge bar is useless for what I purchased it for![smilie=b: The stupid thing does NOT like flake powder (or at least not Red Dot!) at the setting that I needed. When set for the volume that I needed, the opening is just enough off from center in my Autodisk hopper that it won't fill properly. Trying to get a full charge was like pulling teeth. Trying to get a uniform charge was worse. I fought my way through that box and put the charge bar away. :mad:

I haven't given up on 3.8 of Red Dot yet, but the results are not encouraging so far (though I admit I only was allowed time to fire off one magazine of them). Given that these were pulled bullets - with the imperfections that entails - they worked reasonably well. I had one of the eight with definite cratering on the primer, but that was the only one of the eight with noticeable pressure signs. I also had what looked like one bullet hitting the target sideways, which was probably that one. Given that I could not get uniform charges, it would not surprise me to find out that round was loaded nearer 4.0 than 3.8, and it may have been a bit short to boot.

My question to the group, then, is twofold:
1) What Minimum OAL would you recommend for these 125gr TC slugs over Red Dot? Does 1.130" sound about right?

and

2) Since my setup doesn't seem to want to let me adjust much more than at the coarsest level with the powder that I have, and buying nearly ANY powder these days is an exercise in patience, what powder should I be patiently waiting for?

I'm open to nearly any suggestions, since I'm probably going to end up having to order it online, but would prefer to stay away from Vihtavuori powders because of price. I'd prefer a powder that meters easily and that gives good results both with 115gr and 124gr plated (my choice for indoor shooting, doubly so since The Wife complained about the smoke on Tuesday) and 125-ish grain boolits - although if someone has an absolutely wonderful load for the Lee 105-gr TC Boolit, I'd entertain that, too.

I understand that what works well in one pistol may not in another, and am willing to buy a pound of a few different powders to try - I would prefer to avoid the real dogs, though. I just want to be able to settle on one powder for my 9mm reloads, and Red Dot is looking pretty shaky in that department right now.

Thanks all,
'Sifrid

[Jailer]

Ditch the adjustable charge bar it's junk. If you need an adjustable smaller cavity, drill and tap one of the disks from the front and install an allen head set screw or a bolt. You can screw it in and reduce the cavity size to exactly what you need and it's consistent and repeatable.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/SetScrew_zps735b486f.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/Gun%20stuff/SetScrew_zps735b486f.jpg.html)

[Blintersifrid]

Ditch the adjustable charge bar it's junk. If you need an adjustable smaller cavity, drill and tap one of the disks from the front and install an allen head set screw or a bolt. You can screw it in and reduce the cavity size to exactly what you need and it's consistent and repeatable.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/SetScrew_zps735b486f.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/Gun%20stuff/SetScrew_zps735b486f.jpg.html)

You know, I may just order the double disk kit, or maybe a couple of replacement disks, (so I still have a full set of disks) and do exactly that!
Thanks for the idea.

'Sifrid

[ku4hx]

Something I started doing 20 years ago when I got my first Dillon press was to forcibly settle the powder in the measure before I begin adjust the charge. No high tech solution, just tap the plastic tube of the measure 20-30 times with something lightweight but sturdy. Lately that's been an old toothbrush I keep handy for various cleaning applications.

The effect is not so pronounced with ball powders, but with flakes (Unique, Blue Dot) and granules (Bullseye, Power Pistol) the "settling effect" can be quite significant. It's not uncommon to see a full tube of Power Pistol drop to a level an inch below the top lip of the tube. This would normally happen as the press was worked, but pre-settling the powder gets all the "slack" out of the powder column and now my 1st charge is within .1 grain of my 300th charge. If I add powder, I tap-tap again and recheck the charge. It's been years since I had to readjust the charge bar after an initial tapping and settling.

On my Dillons I load only mid-range charges when in production mode. As effective as I think this method is, I stay away from max charges on my progressive machines.

[whisler]

I load small charges of Red Dot (3.3gr.) by using a homemade dipper. Think I used a .380 case, wrapped wire around the extractor grove for a handle and adjusted the volume with wax.

[Jailer]

You can also modify the Lee 5cc dipper by stacking chads from a 3 hole punch in the bottom. The card stock from a primer box works well for this and I use a drill bit to seat them squarely. They are a nice interference fit so they don't fall out. Keep stacking them and checking with a scale until you are at your desired charge weight.

Just make sure they are clean cut chads and not some of those hanging chads that cause so much trouble. :-D

[treadwm]

FWIW, for my Sig 9mm, I use 4gr of Winchester WSF. The bullets are either 124gr LRN from SNS or my home cast 130gr from WW lead. Both are sized to .356. For powder metering, I use a surprisingly consistent, absolutely ancient Ideal powder charger. Model #55 or something like that. No problem with the charge weight when using WSF or Red Dot.

The SNS bullets work fair. Accurate enough but they lead sometimes and the lube smokes a lot.
The homecast WW bullets are more accurate than I am. I use RandyRat's TAC-1 lube. No noticeable leading and much less smoke. I'd forgotten how annoying the smoke can be until I shot some of the SNS's this afternoon.

How there is something useful in my rambling. Hope you find a combination that works best for you.

--treadwm

Edit: Forgot to mention that Hodgdon recommends 1.169 OAL for 124gr LRN. I often go shorter to 1.12.

[rintinglen]

OAL sort of depends on the boolit. An RCBS, Lyman and Magmacast TC are different in design and length. When in doubt, go with the shorter recommendation and steer clear of the top end.

[Blintersifrid]

Okay, so it seems that I may be on the right track with the length.
At 1.125-ish (1.12 up to 1.13), I get some pressure sign with 3.8 of Red Dot, so the next batch will be 1.135-ish (same range as before - I don't have the control to keep it any tighter than that) and we'll see if that fixes that problem.
I've already run into the 1.169" recommendation for OAL for bullets of a similar profile, and those just did NOT feed through my magazine, so shorter is a must.

On another thread, I got a recommendation for Ramshot's True Blue, so I'll add WSF to the "watch list."

Promo has also been pointed out to me on multiple occasions, but I have a couple of questions: Is Promo smaller flakes than Red Dot, similar-sized or larger? And how much more dense is it? (If someone with some would be willing to weigh out a few measured charges, I'll do the math myself.) I understand that the density will fluctuate, I just want some idea of how much smaller the charges would be over Red Dot.

Edit: Actually, let me see if that's something that Alliant will tell me, first. If I find out, I'll let you guys know what it is.

Thanks,
'Sifrid

[treadwm]

I ended up using WSF originally because it was all I could find. But it has worked out well.

Is Promo a one for one replacement for Red Dot? All I see is shotgun recipes on Alliant's site.

[BubbaJon]

That adjustable charge bar sucks for small charges - under 6 gr. The Lee bench powder thrower works much better for small charges - even better than the RCBS.
I like both HP-38 and Unique in my 9mm Mak rounds - especially the Unique. You may have heard it's a dirty powder but that was ages ago.

[gefiltephish]

I'm pasting the following in from a previous thread. This may or may not help with Red Dot, but it doesn't hurt to try it. It costs virtually nothing and it worked for me and Unique.

"The fix for the adjustable charge bar is actually quite simple and has been discussed many times. http://forums.loadmastervideos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=582 It's a 4 page thread with photos on pages 1 and 2."

I also prefer WSF for 9mm. Meters like water, fills the case and seems pretty clean. But since I've not been very successful with 9mm and cast (leading), I guess that doesn't mean much. For my LC9 I'm now using 231 under jacketed and plated.

[MBuechle]

I've had better luck with Power Pistol & HP-38 (W-231) in both the 9 & .40 with cast. I tried Clays in both but got lots of throat end leading. I'm using 50/50 WW/Pb and water drop for practice stuff, air cool the HPs. This is pretty soft air cooled and larger expanders were necessary for both calibers. My 9 needed .358 boolits to shoot cleanly. Interestingly, the 9 has never grouped poorly with cast, just leaded moderately to heavily 'til I got things sorted out. For me, Power Pistol has been the best in both of these calibers.

[Blintersifrid]

Okay, so my box of .315 roundball arrived (the only size available at the time that wasn't .451 or larger!) and, after upsetting a couple and trying to get a reading with my new micrometer, I've gotten a VERY interesting reading on my C9's bore - if it can be believed.

My bore seems to be .3552 or .3553, which means that the .356-sized bullets I've ordered SHOULD work properly.
I'm not entirely sure that I can fully believe this reading, though, since the ball was so small that I had to smash it flat to fit the bore of my gun.
I'll try again when I can use a .375 ball, just to be sure.

It's for sure that I see no leading after 58 rounds of the "iffy" lead reloads over 3.5 and 3.8 of Red Dot.

Maybe I misremembered the leading at 4.0, or maybe it was too hot a load in too short a COAL.

I dunno.

I'll recheck the bore when I can, but I'm thinking that I use up these "store boughts" that are coming and not worry too much about it until I get closer to the end of the boxes, get leading, or the craziness dies down and I can actually get the molds that I want and start casting my own.

I'm still looking for alternates to Red Dot (or Promo), though.

'Sifrid

[treadwm]

I also prefer WSF for 9mm. Meters like water, fills the case and seems pretty clean. .....

The smooth metering of WSF was a nice surprise. And very consistent. Though I haven't seen anymore since I bought this last pound.

[Blintersifrid]

Is Promo a one for one replacement for Red Dot? All I see is shotgun recipes on Alliant's site.
Yes, from what I've seen, but by weight, not volume.

'Sifrid