Starter Rifle for BPCRS

[Dragoon 45]

I'm the Match Director for our local BPCRS matches and am trying to increase the number of new shooters in the program. Our gun club is having a Memorial Day picnic on the range and I obtained permission from the Board to put on a BPCRS demo during the picnic.

We had a couple of visitors to our BPCRS match this past Sunday. The question came up: what is a good starter rifle for someone new to the sport? In this case, both of the visitors did not want to start with a .45-70 as they are somewhat recoil sensitive, so I recommended a .40-65 or .38-55 as those are fairly easy to find in some of the Italian rifles that are moderately priced. They do not want to order a custom built rifle to start out with, as they are not sure if they will stay with the sport.

In particular Dixie Gun Works has two Pedersoli's, one a Rolling Block and the other a Sharps, in .40-65 that are described as Silhouette Models priced around $1150. The C Sharps' 1875 and Highwall models I would also put on the list for novice shooters. I don't want to put something like a C. Sharps Remington Hepburn, the high end Shiloh's, or the high end Highwalls from Meachem on the list and scare off new shooters because of the price of the rifle.

What I would like to do is build a list of moderately priced rifles that I could recommend to novices when they decide to try the sport. I would like to include this list in our match literature along with the basic equipment and supplies needed to get started and have this info printed out in a hand out when I do the demo at the picnic.

So here goes, what would you recommend as a starter rifle?

Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

[country gent]

I have a Pendersoli Sharps right now in 45-70 that shoots very good. Ive refit it with a windgage front and soule long range rear and hadley eye piece. The rolling blocks can be very good rifles. The H&R buffalo guns should be good shootrs but the break open actions may be discourging to new shooters to.Several at our club have used Martinis for the cast bullet matches. Also a used rifle can be a "leg up" for a new shooter if he ges the complete package of Brass, mould, dies, loading info, and sight settings. I agree with cost being a factor for alot of people. My home club has several ARs and 22 target rifles ( rem 40X, win 52s, 541s, and anchutz) for beginner, junior, new members to borrow to try out a new discipline also. I have loaned rifles to new shooters also. One other thing we did at Camp Perry every spring was a New Shooter High power match. 4 hours class room on saturday ( saftey, position, sling use, range comands, and more saftey) then a 40 rd practice in the afternoon. Sunday was a 50 rd 2 man team match with supplied M1 Garands and ammo. M16s from national gaurd and ammo for smaller statured kids. A coach every 5 firing points on the line and in the pits. But getting enough club members to volunteer time rifles and ammo would be a trick too.

[Don McDowell]

The Winchester 1885's in traditional and bpcr models can be had for 1500 or less, you've already mentioned the CSA 75. Don't rule out the basic C Sharps and Shiloh 74's.
Also be sure and point out that decent sights will set them back 600$, and they will be going thru lead at a rate of 12-16 bullets per pound.
It's not the rifle that makes for the big expense it's all the junk it takes to make the rifle work. They should have a minimum of 200 cases, keep at least 1000 primers and a case of powder on hand. Plus the crossticks, shooting mats, and spotting scopes, line boxes and gun carts.

[Don McDowell]

Left out the cleaning patches,rods,jags and brushes...case tumbler/cleaner, decapping tool.
And sooner or later they're going to want to get decent casting equipment and moulds.

[bigted]

as Don mentions...the "STUFF" is the costly parts.

[Gunlaker]

For a beginner I think you can't beat a decent used rifle. Especially if they aren't sure they are really going to get into it. Unless you paid too much you can always get your money back out of it, and the prices are a bit lower than new usually. Mind you I'm pretty sure that I could get my money back out of my Shiloh's, but that'll be a for my heirs to do, not me :-)

Chris.

[451 Pete]

Dragoon,
I also am a match director for these match's and have been asked the same question by folks wanting to give this sport a try. One thing we do at our matchs is have a bench set up where anyone wishing to sell a used rifle or equipment can bring it and put it on the bench with a tag and the price of what they wish to sell the item for. I have seen a lot of very good deals show up doing this as shooters in this game tend to like to tinker and a lot of times will up grade their equipment or change to a different rifle / caliber over time.

It is a big plus if the interested person is already into another type of competitive shooting. He may already have a lot of the reloading and shooting equipment needed to get started ie. : shooting mat, reloading press, spotting scope ect. As Don said above the odds and ends associated to this sport do add up. About any way you figure it out a new shooter to this sport will have about a $2000 minimum investment when it is all totaled up to get up and running.

Pete

[Dragoon 45]

I already have a list of supplies and equipment for them. Most of the folks I talk to are former highpower shooters so they have a lot of the equipment needed. What tends to put a lot of them off, is the price of a rifle. Why that is I don't really know, as a decent competition rifle in highpower probably costs more than a good BPCR. They think nothing of paying $2500 for a competition grade AR or M-1A, but balk at an $1800 single shot.

The above is why I am trying to compile a list of moderately priced rifles from various manufacturers to give them.

[Mike Brooks]

You're a wet blanket McDowell.....[smilie=l:

[Don McDowell]

[smilie=s:Yeh well,sorry:violin:

What happened to that great big smiley? I miss that thing.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
As match director you have the way to make it easy for a new shooter to step up to the line and compete against himself.
I direct matches at the Danville Rifle Pistol Club when up north there.
If my Military Rifle match is running and a fellow shows up with a sporterized Krag and wants to shoot the bowling pins and there is slack time in the shooter roster, he gets to shoot against himself.
If I am match director for a BPCR match and a feller shows up with an H&R 45-70 or any caliber that fits the era loaded with BP and lead boolits he will get to shoot against himself.
Having a recommended rifle list is good. But remember, the novice shooter is probably under 35, has a bunch of kids to keep in cloths, school and doctors. He probably will be hard stretched to come up with $600 for a used repro rifle. He is probably already wondering why he cannot use an H&R that will get him shooting for $250.
Back about 1980 I could barely afford a 1884 Trapdoor. That was the least expensive option about. But it was enough to get started and with the help of some fine real Sharps shooters(Danny Powell, Lizard and others) I started out. The Match Director made a new class for me that day. I competed against me. The match director spotted for me. And everyone cheared when I hit my first 500 yard ram.
So Match Directors... the ball is in your hands. Like Patton said" Regulations are guidelines". You have the means to make matches easy and simple for new shooters. They won't win. But they sure wil appreciate not being told thier H&R or whatever type single shot they have loaded with BP and castboolits "is not traditional and you are not welcome".
Mike in Peru

[451 Pete]

Dragoon in your first post that started this thread you mentioned Shilo, C. Sharps , the Rolling Block and 74 Sharps from Pedersoli for entry level rifles. I would also add the CPA Stevens to your list. Although priced at $2550 for a basic no frills rifle they can also be had with un-finished stocks ( - $600 ) or sanded stocks needing to be finished (- $300). This would put these within the price range of the others.

Pete

[Boz330]

If you suck them in, it won't be long before they will get with the program. But it is an expensive hobby. I know guys that dropped that much on stuff to shoot IPSC, but you can start with a cheaper pistol and go from there.
The first match or two that I shot was with duplex loads and they they said to be correct that I had to shoot straight BP, but they didn't throw me out. Of course I wasn't scaring anybody either.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

I guess I've never understood the whining about the expense of an NRA bpcsr/bptr eligible rifle. My gosh what if everybody did that about CAS? Just the guns will cost as much as a decent bpcr, and that doesn't include the leather goods, or the mandatory stage prop costumes. As mentioned already, you can get a Shiloh with the sights for the same money you can get a hunk of **** AR, and not a lot more than a slicked up 1911of the shelf and not something someone has really put some effort into..
I believe if a person is going to make a list of the equipment and the cost to hand out to potential new shooters, it also needs to carry a meaningful real world cost comparison to other shooting sports.
I'll also point out that the only place I've ever seen or heard of anyone being discriminated against because they didn't have anything to use but a handirifle etc is on the internet.(and that's generally some made up story ) Real world that's probably not going to happen. Anyone running a match is going to be glad to have the participation. They most likely won't kick a fully eligible shooter off the line so to make room for someone without the eligible rifle can shoot, but if at all possible I don't know of anybody that's not going to let someone shoot a safe rifle and loads.

[MikeS]

I don't understand how the H&R Handi rifle is considered incorrect, considering that it's action type WAS made as early as 1900 I believe (I could be wrong about the exact year, but it's close), but another single shot rifle (I don't recall which one it is, I'm doing this from memory) that was first made somewhere in the 1920's, is considered period correct. I really think it has more to do with rifle snobbery than anything else, I mean why should somebody with a $250.00 rifle be allowed to compete against a fancy Shiloh Sharps that costs between $2000.00 to $300.00?

Maybe there should be some loosening of the period rules, or maybe add a class for slightly more modern rifles, specifically so a noob could get themselves a Handi and use it until they decide to get a more costly more correct rifle? I personally wouldn't own a Handi Rifle, but that's due to the fact that I don't like the way it looks. I also don't own an AR-15 for the same reason, the closest I'll get to a 'black rifle' is a wood stocked Ruger Mini-30.

[Don McDowell]

The rules have absolutely not one damn thing to do with rifle snobbery. The rules were set a couple three decades ago, and were done so in accordance with historical research and rifles that were available at the time.
Continually we get pounded to death by this handirifle thing. Well folks here's the deal the handirifle as it is constructed now has NO genealogy to any rifle available in the time period stated in the rules. But now here's the deal IF someone can come up with the necessary paper work, and documentation that those rifles should be allowed then all one has to do is petition the NRA Competition rules committee for acceptance. But every year about this time we hear this same ol song and dance and happy horse **** about rifle snobbery, but none of the handirifle champions, nor the folks that manufacture and market the handirifle ever seem to get enough ambition to followthru and get the acceptance taken care of.
Personally I'ld like to see those rifles allowed, but I pretty sure it would do more to discourage participation than help other than on a one time basis. As any sight that will make that thing shoot even close to the accuracy necessary at long distance to be competitive is going to cost MORE than the rifle. The weight of the thing (or lack there of) will punish the snot out of anybody's shoulder by the time they finish a 40 round match to the point they may develop a serious flinch. And try as they might no one has ever been able to verifiably get one of those rifles to shoot even close to the accuracy needed to be competitive at the distances involved in all of the bpcr disciplines. Remember anything between 200 and 300 yds is most likely going to be shot off hand, and there are no mechanical rests nor shooting benches allowed...

[waksupi]

I will agree on the point that you would never be able to withstand the recoil for a full weekend shoot, and the accuracy is certainly not there for long range competition. On a three day weekend shoot, between competition, and plinking for fun, I always took a minimum of 350 rounds. That's a lot of punishment from a light rifle.

This always reminds me of the arguments from the inline muzzleloader shooters, who never actually look at original inline ML's. The only relationship is the boolit still flies out of the same end.

[Don McDowell]

I really and truly do wish someone somewhere would take up the cause and get or at least try to get the Handirifle and it's variants accepted thru the NRA rules committee. If for nothing else just to shut this constant rifle snobbery thing down.
I also notice at several of the "gong" shoots such as the Quigley etc, you never see any of the handirifles in the top finishers, and usually after you see someone shooting one of those things, trying to keep the muzzle down range while the gun is mounted up on the crossticks with the action open, if they come back the next year , they're probably carrying a different rifle.
Plus it's still possible for a handirifle shooter to attend an NRA sanctioned match and shoot, but they won't be eligible for any of the prize awards, but they can at least get a taste of it.
As a couple of fliers I've seen said " we will turn no one with the spirit of competition away". That's how you get new shooters on the line.

[John Boy]

...and the accuracy is certainly not there for long range competition.
waksupi, when I started out in the BPCR sport, my 1st rifle was the H&R BC with the 38-55 barrel also. First range test I had 5 rounds left after vernier settings at 100 & 200 using the 45-70. Went to the club's 600yd range, trajectory table said 153 MOA. It was a hot, bright day with mirage, that I knew absolutely nothing about on how to shoot. In the 7 ring @ 600yds were the 5 holes - 2 1/4 x 7" with 3 that one could cover with a silver dollar. OK, that's Mid Range.
Subsequently both barrels went to Ridgway with me for 1000yd shooting. The 45-70 shot very well with a couple of lead splashes on the 10" X center ring and multiple hits on Homer, 48 x 82" - smaller than the standard 1000yd paper target. Twenty rounds to 1000 with 17 sighters and 3 hits using the 38-55. Needed elevation was more than I expected

The accuracy of the H&R Green Mountain barrels is nothing to sneeze at IMO using black powder. As for the current NEF's, have no idea who is making the barrels now

[John Boy]

...the handirifle as it is constructed now has NO genealogy to any rifle available in the time period stated in the rules.
Yes Don, not a replic and Yes, NRA snobbery but note the similarity between these 2 rifles?

H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic
69931

William Wurfflein Rifles, Philadelphia, PA - 1871 to 1910
69932
69939
69941

He also barreled the rifles up to the 45-110
69942
Source: http://www.pbase.com/halp/root&page=all

I have 2 Wurffleins: 22LR and 32-40. Many SS collectors and shooters have never heard about Wurffleins, including the NRA Committee. And if a shooter was to bring an original Wurfflein to a NRA match, there would be much discussion whether it was legal or not.

3.1 Rifle - Any safe, original or modern production or custom variety, breech loading rifle designed as a single shot.

[M-Tecs]

The H & R 71 looks a lot lke the Maynard rifles. http://www.civilwarguns.com/9804.html After the civil war Maynard rifles were popular with the buffalo hunters.

[Texantothecore]

The H & R 71 looks a lot lke the Maynard rifles. http://www.civilwarguns.com/9804.html After the civil war Maynard rifles were popular with the buffalo hunters.

That maynard makes my nose flair. Wow, what a beauty!

And the Wurfflein is wonderful, a real work of art.

I just love break open actions. I must be a sick puppy.

[Don McDowell]

John two sets of NRA rules. the one you quoted part of is the BPTR rules, and that's why Dave Gullo can shoot his borchardt.
The other set deals with sillouette and the things are different.
There still is no NRA rifle snobbery . When the rules for the bpcrs game was set up they tried to include as much as was available.
So there you go, it's your cause and your charge now to present the petition along with the accompanying research and documentation to the rules committee and get those rifles allowed, so the whining can cease and desist.

[Don McDowell]

The H & R 71 looks a lot lke the Maynard rifles. http://www.civilwarguns.com/9804.html After the civil war Maynard rifles were popular with the buffalo hunters.

Looks about as much like each other as my first wife did to Samantha on Bewitched... They was both were blonde witches but that's another story for a different time.
Notice how the action work different on the Maynard?

[Don McDowell]

John your waffleiron is legal under the bpcrs rules and is specifically mentioned, as is the maynard.
Check NRA.org go to the competitions pages and the rules are there in pdf, look under rifle sillouette to find the bpcr rules.

[EDG]

>>When the rules for the bpcrs game was set up they tried to include as much as was available. <<
The game was deliberately set up to cater to those ate up with buffalo shooter nostalgia.
Hence the targets cannot be knocked down with much less than a 400 grain 40 cal. regardless of the style of rifle action. Yeah I know there are some .38 cal users but there are no .32s that I know of.

[Texantothecore]

Missionary, thank you for including those of us who have Buff Classics. I see the Buff Classic as probably the most common BPCR gateway rifle. I suspect that many owners would love to be able to afford a Pedersoli or a Shiloh but the kids and the wife come first.

I would think that we would want to foster the sport by encouraging those who can't afford a 2,000 dollar rifle but who can afford a moderately priced H&R. I know that I am looking forward to my first Pedersoli in a few years (after the recession begins to be repaired) but I wouldn't mind competing now even if it was in a special class, say the "Gateway" class.

As far as the expense of sights, being more than the rifle, that is pretty common with scopes and because we can move the vernier from rifle to rifle it doesn't bother us one bit.

Just my 2 cents.

[Don McDowell]

>>When the rules for the bpcrs game was set up they tried to include as much as was available. <<
The game was deliberately set up to cater to those ate up with buffalo shooter nostalgia.
Hence the targets cannot be knocked down with much less than a 400 grain 40 cal. regardless of the style of rifle action. Yeah I know there are some .38 cal users but there are no .32s that I know of.

That pretty much glosses right past those that are loading the 357 max case with a healthy dose of 3f and pushing a 250 gr bullet from rechambered 357 lowalls.
The bpcrs targets are exactly the same as regular rifle targets.

[Don McDowell]

Missionary, thank you for including those of us who have Buff Classics. I see the Buff Classic as probably the most common BPCR gateway rifle. I suspect that many owners would love to be able to afford a Pedersoli or a Shiloh but the kids and the wife come first.

I would think that we would want to foster the sport by encouraging those who can't afford a 2,000 dollar rifle but who can afford a moderately priced H&R. I know that I am looking forward to my first Pedersoli in a few years (after the recession begins to be repaired) but I wouldn't mind competing now even if it was in a special class, say the "Gateway" class.

As far as the expense of sights, being more than the rifle, that is pretty common with scopes and because we can move the vernier from rifle to rifle it doesn't bother us one bit.

Just my 2 cents.

I'ld be terribly surprised if there was a local range/club match that you could not go and compete in right now. The only thing is you won't get an NRA shooters classification.
But then you could always petition the rules committee to make the necessary changes. Just get together with other like minded folks and get the work done.

[Texantothecore]

I'ld be terribly surprised if there was a local range/club match that you could not go and compete in right now. The only thing is you won't get an NRA shooters classification.
But then you could always petition the rules committee to make the necessary changes. Just get together with other like minded folks and get the work done.

I didn't know that the practice was to include other shooters in the line and I am thrilled that I bumped into this discussion as it will focus my efforts in the long distance shooting which I find fascinating. I don't particularly care if I win anything, I do care to not place last on every trip. LOL.

I have a Marbles sight to install on my buff and now it will happen next week.

Man, I can't wait to do this. Wow, what fun.

Thank you all for the surprising discussion.

[Don McDowell]

Don't get to excited, it's doubtful the marbles sight will get you the elevation needed to reach the far targets.

[Texantothecore]

Don't get to excited, it's doubtful the marbles sight will get you the elevation needed to reach the far targets.

That's ok, this will be a work in progress for quite a while.

[Mike Brooks]

I have 3 shiloh rifles and the most I paid was $1100 for the most expensive one.. Just keep your eyes open.

[EDG]

And the 357 Max case is legal for what?
Yes the targets are the same. Why make new targets to accommodate a 32-40?


That pretty much glosses right past those that are loading the 357 max case with a healthy dose of 3f and pushing a 250 gr bullet from rechambered 357 lowalls.
The bpcrs targets are exactly the same as regular rifle targets.

[CanoeRoller]

I have never seen any rifle snobbery at a BPCR match. When I first started (long long ago and far away). I was waiting the then mandatory 5 years for my Shiloh, but went to the local match to chat, see what I might learn etc. I was invited to shoot that day. I told the match director that all I had was a 30-40 kreg, he told me to bring it down the next match and shoot. He explained that I would not qualify for any ranking, but I was welcome to join in the fun. My kreg was mostly able to just scare rams. I often saw them quiver. Still I had my first taste of the sport, and had a lot of fun.

I think the rifle snobbery is more of a perception problem by non participants than an actual occurance. When you hear people talk about multi year waits for their rifle, and paying 2 or 3 grand for it, then forking over more for iron sights than most hunters will pay for their rifle, you just assume they are being snobs. But as Elmer Keith said, "It ain't bragging if it's true."