Time for me to learn the rifled musket

[Nobade]

I have dabbled with these in the past without much success, but this weekend I picked up a pristine Parker Hale P61 so now it's time to get serious. I know Buckshot here on the forum has no little experience with these and there must be others. So, who has suggestions?

Yesterday I tried it with some old Lee improved minies I had cast up, dip lubed with several different kinds of normal rifle lube. I learned that normal lube is too thick and doesn't work well. The best were lubed with Pearl Lube, which is pretty thin. So, what lube? I have heard Crisco, and other types of grease. Do you lube the grooves? Put it in the base? How about sizing? These boolits would start with the palm of my hand and then go down. Ought to be close, maybe a little smaller so they slide the whole way.

Boolit design - heard of people getting good accuracy with the Lee "trashcan" boolit, Lyman has a mould just for Parker Hale rifles with thick skirts, RCBS makes nice looking "Hodgdon" moulds, lots of choices out there. This rifle has a 1:48 twist so should work with most if they fit. How about solid base boolits? NEI has one that looks like an overgrown "biglube" design and I have seen Moose Moulds has some interesting designs as well.

Powder - using 55gr. FFFg ho'made yesterday with good results, maybe try FFg next time to see what happens. 60gr. shot worse, 45gr. was really wimpy. Of course that will require lots of testing to settle on what works, but the boolit and lube will have to be first to make it mean anything.

Lead - pure or close as possible. Hard to find, anybody try j word cores? Lots of those around. Think they're soft enough?

I did try it with round balls. My Miroku '63 works great with them, this P-H is awful. I think the progressive depth rifling is the culprit. Combos almost too tight to load still showed blown patches. Lots faster and flatter though, would work great for hunting if they were more accurate. But I have my plains rifle for that.

So, open to any suggestions from those who have been there - help me down the path to minie' bullet bliss!

-Nobade

[59sharps]

I had a 3 bander P53 I think they were. mine liked the lyman OS minnie w 48 of 3fffg by weight. wh the hodgens it liked 42 of 3fffg. never tried 2ffg in it. (but most others ive shot adding 10% for 2 ffg got me the same results).
minnies need to be sized .001 to .002 under bore to work well.
as you know pure lead or as close as you can get it.

[fouronesix]

With the 48" twist you should be able to get some accuracy almost without trying :) And agreed- the progressive depth grooves are hard to figure. I've learned to ignore whatever the specs are- there is no substitute for testing to see what works and what doesn't.

I know some use and like the Lee Improved and the Lee "Wadcutter" minie designs. I've never been able to get them to do as well as the regular Lyman designs or the "paper" cutter Hodgdon style designs like the N-S RCBS, etc. Why it works that way- I dunno. Usually somewhere between 50-60 gr FFF or FF BP in the 58 usually works. Crisco is so available and cheap why not try it. Three combinations of lubing the minie can be tried- small dab in base only, fill the grooves only or do both. Shoot and see. Same goes for swabbing/cleaning between shots vs just running it "HC" 'til it's too fouled to load. Again, shoot and see. The gun and methods will tell you which works. Sometimes the sights are the limiting factor for accurate shooting- so may have to come up with a workaround for them?? I've never been completely skunked in getting a rifle-musket to shoot minies. Sometimes little effort, sometimes a lot of effort.

[fgd135]

I also have a PH 61 musketoon. I've tried a few different miniés in mine, and like you, see better accuracy than with round balls. That Lyman blue-grey 405 grain target minié shoots very well with about 45 grains of 3fg. I don't know why you would want to shoot cu-jackets in a reproduction rifle that was designed to shoot pure lead hollowbase projectiles.
Your minié should be an easy slip fit without pressure into the muzzle, otherwise it might be too large in diameter to load after firing a few rounds has fouled up the barrel somewhat. I bought a push-thru sizer that works on my regular single stage press; S&S Firearms, and other sutlers sell these. I dip-lube miniés with very warm liquified beeswax or SPG up to the scraping band. Some people put lube in the base, but I don't.

As far as powder charges go, you will have to try different loads until you find one that suits accuracy and recoil, and also hits with your sights; many of these carbines shoot very very high and require a new taller front sight blade.

[fouronesix]

"These boolits would start with the palm of my hand and then go down. Ought to be close, maybe a little smaller so they slide the whole way."

Since you likely won't be shooting re-enactor type strings or combat type shoots- the fit you describe has always produced the best accuracy for me with minies, all other things being equal. Moist fouling type powder and a soft lube will usually allow at least 10-12 shots without the need to swab/clean. The greatest build-up is usually just in front of the bullet seating location and on up the bore for a few inches. You can start feeling it during loading. The other limiter on shooting strings is if fouling starts to build in the flash channel. It can be detected by delayed ignition- not much, but detectable by an experienced shooter.

"This rifle has a 1:48 twist so should work with most if they fit"

That's true, but in some cases because of the faster twist and the nature of minie stability and skirt design- heavier charges may not work as they sometimes do with the solid base conicals that usually need a harder kick in the rear to obturate properly. Plus, recoil will get a little stiff with the minies/conicals in the smaller gun past a certain charge.

"anybody try j word cores?"

By the term 'cores' if it means similar to the swaging cores or lead wire used for cores then it's usually soft enough at around 6 BHN. But it depends on the cores. If they are an alloyed type they could easily be 8 BHN or harder and I think they would be too hard for minies.

The P53 Artillery Carbine I shoot is a Tower gun (BSAT) made in 1856. It has a 24" barrel and 78" twist and does well with both PRBs and minies. Not sure if loading for it is comparable to a P-H repro P61. I do have and shoot a P-H P53, 3 band that probably is very comparable.

[dualsport]

I'd love to see a picture of your new baby. I mess around with a Zouave and it isn't really fussy, or maybe I'm not. Anyway, if you're desperate I'll sell you some lead, friend's price.

[Nobade]

"anybody try j word cores?"

By the term 'cores' if it means similar to the swaging cores or lead wire used for cores then it's usually soft enough at around 6 BHN. But it depends on the cores. If they are an alloyed type they could easily be 8 BHN or harder and I think they would be too hard for minies.

Yep, that's what I meant - I can pick up an essentially unlimited amount of jacketed bullets laying on the ground. I melt these down and cast balls and paper patched boolits from them but was wondering if they were soft enough to make minie' boolits. They do seem to be mostly pure lead but if there is a company using alloyed lead in their cores it might end up too hard.

And Dualsport, I'll get a pic up as soon as I can manage. It is a pretty little thing.

I just won an Ebay auction for a used #575213 so hopefully I will have some proper fitting boolits soon! Thanks for all the tips, keep 'em coming. Always good to learn from the people who have been there before. I see lots of pics of small groups shot with these rifles but have yet to produce any myself. But it will come with practice and knowledge!

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Here are the Enfield Rifle-Muskets I shoot. The carbine shoots as well as if not better than the longer 3 band muskets up to 50 yards

top to bottom:

P-H P53 3 band made in the mid-1970s
Tower P53 3 band dated 1863
Tower P53 Carbine dated 1856

[Shooter]

50 Gr. fff under a RCBS minie works in mine. Shoots to sights. The musketoon is the handiest of muskets. I have used Crisco in cold weather, gets sloppy in hot. Bore butter rubbed into the grooves is how I do it.
I think core lead would work. I have wanted to try WW, just haven't got to it.
I cast some of WW minies for my Kodiak double rifle to use heavy loads and they seemed to do OK.

[Nobade]

Aah, Bore butter - I think I have some of that around here somewhere. Smells like an old folk's home. I'll try that too. Thanks!

-Nobade

[iron brigade]

I shoot the Lyman 575494 wadcutter minie in my Enfields. 35-38 grains of 3fff. lube used is 75/25 bear grease/beeswax mix and is some slippery stuff. in my original 1864 Bridesburg springfield I use the 575602 minie. this gun has a new Hoyt lined barrel and the bear grease is the only lube that I've found that cuts the fouling down enough to get 10-12 shots off before fouling gets so bad you have to really work at it to drive the bullet down.

the hodgdon .576 minie sized to .575 is a good one also in the Enfields. as far as lead goes you need as pure as you can get otherwise you will experience keyholing.

[varsity07840]

I shoot the Lyman 575494 wadcutter minie in my Enfields. 35-38 grains of 3fff. lube used is 75/25 bear grease/beeswax mix and is some slippery stuff. in my original 1864 Bridesburg springfield I use the 575602 minie. this gun has a new Hoyt lined barrel and the bear grease is the only lube that I've found that cuts the fouling down enough to get 10-12 shots off before fouling gets so bad you have to really work at it to drive the bullet down.

the hodgdon .576 minie sized to .575 is a good one also in the Enfields. as far as lead goes you need as pure as you can get otherwise you will experience keyholing.

What size does your 575602 bullet drop out of the mould? All of my Hoyt .58 relines are .577. Maybe you need to size the minie, unless you're doing that already. Have you tried MCM lube?
Alot of N-SSA shooters use it, as do I.

Duane

[Nobade]

Hi Duane,
What is MCM lube?

I just cast up a pile of minies with my new (to me) #575213 mould. Surprise! The nose is .577" and the skirts are .583". Looks like I need to make a sizing die before I can go shooting. Darn, wanted to try it tomorrow.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Just curious, which 575213 is it? Lyman lists three. 575213 (new style), 575213 (old style) and 575 (PH). There is a large difference among them. Would be good to know whenever you start reporting results.

[Nobade]

New style.

-Nobade

[iron brigade]

What size does your 575602 bullet drop out of the mould? All of my Hoyt .58 relines are .577. Maybe you need to size the minie, unless you're doing that already. Have you tried MCM lube?
Alot of N-SSA shooters use it, as do I.

Duane

I size them with a .575 die in a lyman 45 lubrisizer. and that could be the problem. bullet is sized going down then lubed and excess is scraped off by the die coming up. I shot it today after drilling a peep hole in the 100 yard leaf, dead nuts at 50 yards. those Hoyt barrels are tack drivers. I have tried mcm lube and works well in my other muskets but not the springfield. weird. that bear grease is some good stuff.

[varsity07840]

Hi Duane,
What is MCM lube?

I just cast up a pile of minies with my new (to me) #575213 mould. Surprise! The nose is .577" and the skirts are .583". Looks like I need to make a sizing die before I can go shooting. Darn, wanted to try it tomorrow.

-Nobade

MCM is made by North East Trade Co. It's similar to SPG. He makes alot of handy items for musket and carbine shooters and his stuff is popular with skirmishers. His minie luber is oustanding. Oddly enough, most of his products are not listed on his website. www.norteasttradeco.com. Call him and ask him to e-mail you his price list.
570-546-2061. He's in Winchester, VA right now for th N-SSA Spring Nationals.

Duane

[varsity07840]

Hi Duane,
What is MCM lube?

I just cast up a pile of minies with my new (to me) #575213 mould. Surprise! The nose is .577" and the skirts are .583". Looks like I need to make a sizing die before I can go shooting. Darn, wanted to try it tomorrow.

-Nobade

If your PH has a .577 bore, you need a .575-576 minie. Sizing down a .583 bullet may make the lube grooves too shallow and thin the skirt too much. Just speculating. I've never cast from that mould.

Duane

Duane

[Nobade]

Yep, we shall see. I am going to try to get time to make a sizer tomorrow.

Duane, thanks for the tips. I was poking around at the N-SSA forum yesterday and learned a lot there. Many ways to do this, just have to keep trying and find what my rifle likes. That's the fun of it - get to burn lots of powder!

I don't know what the deal is with the mould I got, whether they are all made like that or if mine has been lapped out. The .577" nose fits the bore perfectly and the skirts are round, just flared out a lot. I wish I had another mould to compare mine with but don't yet. I'll get all this figured out eventually!

-Nobade

[Bob Maerdian]

Hello Nobade,

I have a P-H 3 band and two Zouaves and an original '64 Springfield. I shoot all three with 50-60 gr FFG. I lube with 50/50 beeswax an peanut oil, often I'll add a Tsb of lanolin. In warm weather, 85 degrees F. up I'll use more beeswax, that makes the lube stiffer. I don't put lube in the hollow base. I place the minnie balls standing on their base in a small flat bottomed pan and pour the liquid lube in the pan till it covers the top lube groove. Then I let it all cool about 20 minutes. Remove the lube cake and minnie balls and lightly tap the
sprue lightly mark with a leather mallet and push out the minnie balls with my thumb. It works well for me. Bob Maerdian

[Nobade]

Well, it turns out that my problems were the boolit and not just being stupid. I cast up a bunch of minies with my new Ideal #575215 new model, sized them to .576" in my new homemade sizer, and dip lubed two sets of them, one with Pearl lube and the other with a 50/50 mix of Bore Butter and soy wax flakes. I lubed two grooves and left the top bare. Not sure what the big difference is between this one and the Lee improved minie, but the rifles sure can tell!

The P61 Parker Hale shot very well with either 45gr. KIK FFFg or 65gr. ho'made using corn stalk charcoal. Worked pretty well with 50gr. KIK FFg, but not as accurate as the FFFg. Holding around 3 MOA for vertical and a little more for windage depending on the skill of my wind calls. (12-25mph. variable today. Tough with minies!) No problem to go 10 shots between wiping, the bore butter was the better lube. Little less messy and fouled a touch less.

Then on to the Miroku 1863 (kinda) repro. I just finished cutting this one down to a two band configuration, refinishing the wood, and epoxy bedding it. Prevoiusly it shot pretty good with round balls and horrible with minies. Again, probably the Lee boolit. But the rifling was pretty sketchy near the muzzle, and I wanted a shorter rifle anyway. Anyhow, same deal as the P-H. Same loads (even the bore is a bit looser on this one) and the POI has moved up quite a bit since shortening it, but the groups were as good as I can see and hold. Even hit the hanging steel at 300M second try! And with the looser bore, I never did have to wipe it. 24 rounds fired and it still felt the same. It sure is a lot more fun now that I can hit things with it!

So, I am pleased with the developments on the rifled musket front and want to thank everybody for their input. Oh, BTW - all those boolits were made from lead melted from jacketed bullets I dug up. Evidently it is plenty soft to make minies, and free for the gathering.

-Nobade

[Shooter]

My idea is the FFF smacks the skirt into the grooves better than FF, therefore is more accurate.
Sounds like you should be able to hit the 6"X6" tiles the NSSA uses in their carbine matches.

[Nobade]

I sure wish we had skirmishing around here! There is zero activity in that regard anywhere I know of in NM. Funny thing, the mould I bought came from Winchester, VA. I wonder how many tiles boolits from it has broken!

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Well at least the theorem about the Lee minies not working as a well as the RCBS or Lyman designs is holding true. Wish it weren't that way but it's what I've noticed. I have a couple of Lee minie molds of the "Improved" design. They cast very nice looking minies- they just don't shoot for me :(

Your bore specs for the P-H and the Miroku 63 seem consistent with what I've found. The P-H Enfield repros seem to run pretty close to .577 bore and most of the 61 and 63 repros run close to .580.

[rmark]

My 2nd generation (part english, part italian) P-H p1858 two band requires at least a .580 minie and 60 grains Pyrodex RS to make any kind of group.