Cast Bullet accuracy ?

[jack19512]

I haven't been casting long and would like to ask a Question. I am in the process of casting and reloading for several of my rifles, one of which is a NEF Buffalo Classic 45/70.

I am using the Lee .459-405 gr. mold and 24 gr. 4198 powder at this time. I tried shooting the bullets as cast and also running them through my .457 sizer. They shoot more accurately when sized.

My question is when do you know if you have reached the best accuracy possible? I shot the following group today and for me I think it was pretty good considering my eyesight and using the stock peep sights.

I want to use this rifle and my cast bullets for deer this season and want it to be right. Does this group look OK or do I need to continue experimenting? I use LLA to lube my bullets and the average velocity is 1301 fps. The five shot group was from 66 yards. I just don't know what I should expect as far accuracy and the 45/70 and cast bullets. I would appreciate any comments. :drinks:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01387.jpg

[PPpastordon]

For deer hunting, it depends on how far you will be taking your most distant shots. That group looks like your accuracy would hold to a point beyond where "easy" hits will be possible because of trajectory; maybe 200 yards.
Will it shoot better? I sure don't know. But it looks good for your velocity and 100+ yard shots.

[targetshootr]

I'd say to answer the question depends on how far away the target was.

[Newtire]

If that is a 100 yd group, I'd say you have absolutely nothing to worry about unless you are trying to enter in some kind of Scheutzen match. Unless you have exceptionally small deer, I'd say that load is a keeper.

[jack19512]

I'd say to answer the question depends on how far away the target was.




In my post I stated it was from a distance of 66 yards.

[jack19512]

For deer hunting, it depends on how far you will be taking your most distant shots.




I would hope to keep the distance down to maybe 150 yards or less. I just don't know anyone else that shoots a 45/70 and I am not able to compare groups with. I know it's kind of hard to answer this question because of different rifles and different shooters but I just want to get the best accuracy possible before I consider this my keeper load. Thanks for the replies. :-D

[IcerUSA]

I would try a couple different powders just to get a feel for the accuracy, been trying all sorts of loads in my 32 Win Spl and it looks to be coming down to IMR 3031 for my best load for it, my 444 Marlin is still up for grabs as far as a load I like in it, still running tests with 3 powders in it, just might get the one I want by deer season LOL If the target is telling you to size the boolit, I would but I would also slug the bore to be sure.
Just my .02 worth minus taxes, inflation, and hunny does ;)

[shotstring]

You might also try IMR SR 4759. Has a rep of giving good, consistent reduced loads. I have not tested this load but am passing it on to you to try if it looks good. I don't think you are supposed to start lower than 10% reduction with this powder.

45-70 Government - 325 grain RCBS #82045 cast lead bullet, 26.0 grains SR 4759 powder, CCI 200 primer, Win. case. COL 2.463". MV 1314 fps in 26" barrel. (Based on the Speer Reloading Manual No. 13.)

This load is also the lowest starting load for my 458 Win Mag for reduced loads at 45-70 factory velocity from Speer Manual #11 for use with a Speer 400 gr jacketed bullet which I intend to try.

[DonH]

Looking at your group in terms of moa and carrying it out to 100 yards, it's still pretty good. I tend to think your velocity may be a bit low.I shoot .45-70, mostly with black powder, so I think in terms of BP velocity. A rule-of-thumb method of loading BP velocity /pressure loads is to find 40% of the BP charge weight and Use that many grains of 4198 powder. For a 70 grain BP type load, that would be 28 grains of 4198 and should put you in the 1300 - 1400 fps range of the original BP loading. Modern thinking notwithstanding, such a load in the .45-70 WILL kill anything on this continent . With the 4198 load yu may need to use something to position th powder in the case.

[Sundogg1911]

i feel that if it's not one ragged hole at 100 yards, it can be improved.
I'll have to ask my Therapist if He agrees! [smilie=1:

[snuffy]

I'm in the same boat, other than I don't plan on hunting with my buff classic. I just want a big bore single shot that I can shoot without breaking the bank.

Your groups are MUCH better than what I've been getting. I shoot at 50 yds, also because I can't see well enough to shoot at longer ranges. So far, I've been trying 405 grain lee HP bullets, a new 405 HB from lee, and a new 340 RNFP mold from lee.

My problem is I went too high in powder charges, trying to load to the potential of the H&R action, which I have been told,(by H&R), is capable of lever gun pressures and velocity. I'm going to tone down the next trial loads closed to trapdoor velocities and pressure. It pays dividends in lower recoil as well.

The rifling of the H&R buff classic is very shallow. It would easily strip the boolit if not cast of very hard alloy. At least that's my theory![smilie=1: So maybe it'll be a low velocity fun gun.

This rifle is capable of fine accuracy with the dreaded J-word bullets. But that defeats the aim of mine to have a cheap, accurate cast boolit shooter.

[stubert]

I shoot a guide gun in 45-70 My load is 47 grains of H322 with a gas check 405 grain RCBS flat nose. 50 yard groups average 1.5 - 2 inches. Your groups look good for 66 yards. There will be meat in your freezer.

[Boomer Mikey]

With a 405 grain bullet in Buffalo Classic you can easily go as high as 43.3 grains of 4198 (not that you would want to in a light rifle) so there is plenty of room to try different loads. Is this 24 grain load the only powder charge you tried?

24 grains sounds light and comfortable at what might be 1100 fps but the trajectory will drop about 9 inches between 66 and 100 yards and about 25 inches more at 150 yards... Not easy to accurately guess where the bullet will strike your quarry. Faster is better in this respect and then the recoil becomes bothersome.

I would look for a load with greater velocity to minimize bullet drop. 300 - 360 grain bullets are all you need for deer (or anything else in CONUS) and look for at least 1300 -1500 fps. A 1500 fps load will have about 1/2 the drop of an 1100 fps load.

Consistency is important too. Is the group repeatable?

4198 is a good powder for 45-70 loads; there should be a noticeable progression of groups getting larger and smaller buy increasing and decreasing the charges. I usually work up loads using 1/2 grain increments and fine tune the next session with 1/4 grain increments. After 3 or more repeatable groups in 3 or more range sessions you should have a good idea of what works.

I usually look for one ragged hole groups at 50 yards before moving on to 100 yards and the Buffalo Classic is very capable of doing that.

Boomer :Fire:

[jack19512]

With the 4198 load yu may need to use something to position th powder in the case.




I should have added I use polyester fiber in my 45/70 loads. Seems to work quite well.

[jack19512]

Your groups are MUCH better than what I've been getting. I shoot at 50 yds, also because I can't see well enough to shoot at longer ranges.






That is one of the problems I can't do anything about when it comes to me. Who knows what that group would look like with someone with good eyes and possibly a better shot than myself.

I could mount a scope on this rifle but I do not want a scope on it. I want to shoot it just the way it is. Although mounting a scope on it just for developing my loads is an option. It's just that a scope doesn't help me to learn to shoot this rifle the way I think it was meant to be shot.

[jack19512]

Is this 24 grain load the only powder charge you tried?


I would look for a load with greater velocity to minimize bullet drop. 300 - 360 grain bullets are all you need for deer (or anything else in CONUS) and look for at least 1300 -1500 fps. A 1500 fps load will have about 1/2 the drop of an 1100 fps load.

Consistency is important too. Is the group repeatable?



Boomer :Fire:





The 24 grain load is not the only load so far but it is the highest load of 4198 I have tried so far. I have tried some other powders, 3031 is one of them. But the 3031 didn't seem to do quite as well as the 4198.

So far I have a Lee .459-500 mold and a .459-405 mold. I don't think I have much interest in shooting any 500 grain bullets at this time but I do enjoy shooting the 405 grain bullets. Getting a 300 or 350 grain mold is definitely an option.

I will try an increased powder charge with the 405 grain bullets for now and order me another mold, either 300 or 350 grain. As far as being repeatable, I am pretty sure the load and the rifle are up to it but I am not sure I am. One more question. Does the hardness of my cast bullets matter in the 45/70? I don't have a hardness tester but used my pocket knife with a fair blade and had trouble shaving lead from one of my cast bullets. Thanks for the replies. :)

[jack19512]

I should add that LLA is the only bullet lube I have tried so far. It seems some like the LLA and some don't. I would like to try some other lube so I can see for myself how much difference the lube makes.

[jhalcott]

I like a 300 grain plain base bullet like the 457122 and some where around 20 to 25 grains of 2400. Recoil and accuracy determine the charge. I have tried 3031 and 4198 with this bullet. The GUN likes the 4198 but recoil starts to bother ME.
My bullets are ACWW and lubed with alox beeswax 50/50 mix.
I have been thinking about the 4198 loads. Since I'll only use one or two at most,I believe I can tolerate the recoil for a hunting season!

[MT Chambers]

My C. Sharps 1885 shoots to 1" at 100 yds. when i do my part and use a full charge of Swiss 1 1/2fg.....the heavy barrelled(Badger) gun has vernier tang sights, a very light trigger, and a Paul Jones Creedmore bullet or Saeco 525gr.bullet, My C. Sharps 1874 in 50-90 Sharps shoots almost as good with Buckhorn sights and 101grs. of Goex cartridge BP and 530gr. bullet....however my modern Marlin 45/70 will not shoot like them as i use Smokeless loads and groups are alot like the one in the picture. I think you are getting good accuracy considering your bullet/powder combo.

[leftiye]

Jack,
Not trying to be a $m@rt@$$, but.... You know that once you mount a scope that it comes off easier than it went on-yes? That is the only cure I know of for "I can't see well enough (or hold tight enough) to know where I'm shooting (another way of saying - is it my fault or the load's fault). Ie. mount the scope and use the benchrest for load development. Not a 100% cure but pretty close, you'll probably know if you did your part or not then. Try 3031, the castboolits benchrest guys swear by it (ones I know). For a long time it was the only powder used by Sierra bullits for accuracy testing. And it doesn't stop being accurate when used in less than full pressure loads (not too hard to ignite). Once you've got your accuracy load, then take the scope off and practice, you'll know it ain't the gun/load's fault then.

[Boomer Mikey]

The following data is from Hornaday's 7th edition reloading data using Hornady jacketed bullets. Cast bullet velocity will be higher and pressures will be lower (safer). None of these loads are maximum for use in Marlin 1895 actions which would be very safe in the Buffalo Classic. I also back up this data with Hodgdon web site data.

H335 and H322 are good powders too but 4198 will work fine for loads below recommended starting loads. 4198 loads with more than 40-45 grains probably won't be comfortable on the bench, but while hunting you won't even notice the recoil.

300 Grain: Velocity Charge
IMR4198 1600 fps 35.8
H4198 1600 fps 42.3
IMR3031 1600 fps 50.2

350 Grain: Velocity Charge
IMR4198 1600 fps 37.3
H4198 1600 fps 41.6
IMR3031 1600 fps 49.6
H4895 1600 fps 54.2

From the Hodgdon website: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle 300 Grain Bullet Starting Loads Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

300 GR. SIE HP 300 H335 .458" 2.525" 61.0 2073 22,500 CUP 68.0 2326 38,800 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 H322 .458" 2.525" 57.0 2002 21,400 CUP 63.0C 2252 32,600 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 H4198 .458" 2.525" 55.0 2221 27,600 CUP 60.0 2424 40,000 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 IMR 4064 .458" 2.525" 59.0 1858 20,300 CUP 65.5C 2125 28,700 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 IMR 4895 .458" 2.525" 58.5 1800 19,900 CUP 65.0C 2087 30,000 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 IMR 3031 .458" 2.525" 58.0 1971 21,900 CUP 64.0C 2196 29,500 CUP
300 GR. SIE HP 300 IMR 4198 .458" 2.525" 53.7 2293 33,100 CUP 57.2 2407 39,100 CUP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle 400 Grain Bullet Starting Loads Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

400 GR. SPR JFP 400 Varget .458" 2.540" 50.0 1655 18,600 CUP 55.0C 1845 25,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 H335 .458" 2.540" 52.0 1798 25,400 CUP 58.0 1995 40,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 H4895 .458" 2.540" 50.0 1614 19,200 CUP 55.0C 1859 26,500 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 Benchmark .458" 2.540" 55.0 1856 29,600 CUP 58.5C 1986 40,000 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 H322 .458" 2.540" 50.0 1767 23,700 CUP 55.0C 1984 39,200 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 H4198 .458" 2.540" 46.0 1854 29,500 CUP 50.5 2002 39,400 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 IMR 4064 .458" 2.540" 53.5 1808 29,700 CUP 57.0C 1918 36,400 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 IMR 4895 .458" 2.540" 54.0 1785 30,500 CUP 58.0C 1930 38,600 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 IMR 3031 .458" 2.540" 51.0 1809 26,900 CUP 55.0C 1971 37,300 CUP
400 GR. SPR JFP 400 IMR 4198 .458" 2.540" 43.0 1868 31,600 CUP 46.0 1960 37,600 CUP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't use LLA, almost any stick lube will work at 1600 fps or less. Mounting a scope on the rifle for testing and load development helps a great deal, you'll find it relatively easy to get one ragged hole groups at 50 yards using consistent shooting and reloading habits.

Boomer :Fire:

[jack19512]

Jack,
Not trying to be a $m@rt@$$, but.... You know that once you mount a scope that it comes off easier than it went on-yes?





I have to admit, I have been there and done that. I had a scope on the rifle but took it off because I have to learn to shoot this rifle like I really want it. Shooting with a scope isn't going to help me(in my opinion)in learning how to shoot the rifle with peep sights. I will just have to keep my shots limited in range. I do understand the logic of the scope though but I think I have to shoot the rifle as much as I can to be proficient with it. :)

[NickSS]

I have used 4198 and 3031 for hunting loads in a 45-70 for years. My current hunting load (when using smokeless powder) is 42 gr of 3031 and a 405 gr lyman pbfp bullet. This load will shoot intounder one inch at 100 yards. As for long ranges with a 45-70 it can be done if you know your trajectory and the range to your target. If not, hits beyound about 150 yards with a low velocity load is very iffy. With a lazer range finder and knowing your sight settings I have made hits on game out to nearly 300 yards with a 45-70 Sharps shooting lead bullets with black powder. I would never try this if I did not know the range though.

[jack19512]

I ordered me a 340 grain mold. When it comes I get to start all over. It's a good thing this is so much fun. :castmine:

[snuffy]

Well now check this out!

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/.458-340%20fp.jpg

Or how about this one?

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/.458-405.jpg
then there's this one;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/14.0%20340%20trail%20boss.jpg

All three were @ 50 yds, original peep front and rear sights. Those bulls are a florescent yellow stick-on, the scanner can't scan that color for some reason. I find that those bulls are quite easy to see and center in the front hole aperture.

Top group is the lee .457-340-f cast of 3-17 lino to pure lead, loaded with 27.5 of surplus 4759 powder I got from GI brass . com. 28.5 opened up quite a bit. Velocity was AV. 1560 with a 20 fps ES. Looks like I've got a good load for that velocity level.

Second group was the 405 HB lee, loaded with 31.5 4198. AV 1463 with an ES of 70.1. for 5 shots. I loaded 10 so the second one was AV 1471 ES 109.7 not as nice a group but still under 2 inches.

Third group is trail boss powder. started at 14.0, which was the best group, went 15.0 and 16.0. BUT it's for old ladies and kids, AV 1180 fps with an 18.0 ES. It burns clean, and 16.0 fills a 45-70 case! Little gray donuts.

I also tried some WC-846 behind the 405's. Playing it safe when a recommended load of 49.0 was offered, I loaded 3 at 40.0, then 3 at 45.0. 1st one went bang with good solid recoil and around 1450 fps, second was a mild recoil and less than 1300. Third was a real surprise, a click followed by a curl of smoke from around the breech. I held it on target for at least 10 seconds, then carefully opened the breach. The powder was mostly behind the boolit, which was about 6 inches ahead of the chamber. It had a yellow color to it, obviously a problem with position in reference to the primer. The 45.0 load went bang with gusto, 1551 av ES 102.6 Group was terrible. 49.0 was a chore to shoot, heavy recoil and poor group, AV 1720 ES 170.2. Burn rate does not match this caliber/boolit combo.