Rifle clean-up after BP

[beng]

I am just starting into Black Powder (45-70) I have read (I think I have read every book that is on this subject) looked; tryed and now getting all the supplies I need for this type of shooting. I do understand about loading and shooting of BP. I will be using the Remington Rolling Block, Shilo Sharps and the H&R BC 45-70. Break down the rooling block is easy to clean, the other that you can not break down complete, how would you clean this? Is there any type of cleaning or spray you can use? I have seen one rifle case that was not cleaned in a few days and I do not want my rifles to get as this. Thanks for your time beng

[Hogdaddy]

Front Stuffers get cleaned with Hot soapy water,, Then dry patched & lubed ; )
H/D

[twotoescharlie]

windex or windshield wiper fluid till patches are clean, dry down and oil. been doing it for 56 years.

TTC

[joec]

Or simply pickup some Ballistol and for cleaning mix with equal parts of water. I've also used Alcohol, Murphy's Soap and a bit of period to clean with. Followed by a natural lube. Soap and water will also do it quite well just avoid using petrol based products unless clearly stated for cleaning black powder.

[johnson1942]

something else that may or may not come up for you. i have a bc classic and a cpa stephens 44 and 1/2 both in 45/70. the chamber of the bc classic is a lot tighter than my cpa 45/70. i cant get my brass to go into my bc classic once they have been fired in the cpa 45/70. if yours is this way you might want to keep your brass seperate and only use the brass fired in each gun for that gun.may or may not be something to look out for.

['74 sharps]

I run a few damp patches down the barrel, and oil with Ballistol. For the rest of the action on my two '74 Sharps, I spray the Ballistol/water mix and let it dry. When dry, there is a thin coat of oil left behind, and have never had a single rust issue.

[Calamity Jake]

"Ballistol and for cleaning mix with equal parts of water" Also known as Moose milk

[Dan Cash]

Plain water; hot and soapy if you have it, if not, plain water. Pour it down the barrel to flush most of the crud then wet patch until clean patches come out. Dry patch and oil down, I use Ed's Red but plain transmission or other hydraulic fluid works well. I am too cheap to spend on the over the counter gu oils. Above regimen is good enough for high dollar Sharps; might not be complicated enough for lesser weapons.

[Don McDowell]

I am just starting into Black Powder (45-70) I have read (I think I have read every book that is on this subject) looked; tryed and now getting all the supplies I need for this type of shooting. I do understand about loading and shooting of BP. I will be using the Remington Rolling Block, Shilo Sharps and the H&R BC 45-70. Break down the rooling block is easy to clean, the other that you can not break down complete, how would you clean this? Is there any type of cleaning or spray you can use? I have seen one rifle case that was not cleaned in a few days and I do not want my rifles to get as this. Thanks for your time beng
Cleaning the breech loaders is simple, just blow 2 or 3 breaths thru each end of the barrel and push a dry patch thru, then a patch damp with water, maybe another one, and then a dry patch or two. If the last dry patch comes out with black on it, then back with the damp patches. If the dry patch comes out with grey on it, then you need to deployee your favored lead mining routine. When the barrel is clean a patch wet with your favored gun oil/bore conditioner, wipe down the outside of the rifle with an oily patch, and your done. Except for cleaning the cases.

[smoked turkey]

Don, you mentioned cleaning the cases. I have been thinking on loading some Black Powder 45-70 loads for my Ruger No. 1, and was wondering about the cleaning of the rifle and cases after loading. I think what has been mentioned in the above posts pretty well covers cleaning the rifle. I was wondering about the cleaning procedure for the empty cases. I also wonder prior to reloading the cases, if they are fl sized as normally done with smokeless powder? Thanks for taking time to answer these basic questions.

[Don McDowell]

Punch the primers, drop them in a container with a really complicated cleaning solution, like a jigger of simple green (or dishsoap) and water, slosh them around a bit, rinse till clear water comes out, dry them and let them run thru the tumbler.
Full length resizing is entirely up to you , your rifle and your bullet. I like to fl size about every third or fourth reload when shooting greasers, have to resize every time when shooting patched.

[kokomokid]

I think the problem is getting all the moisture out before putting oil in the bbl. The English used a hot iron rod to take out moisture before oiling. Wish someone would make a miniature hair dryer I could plug to my blow tube?

[Jim2]

Kokomo,
Check-out a beauty-shop supply co. for really small dryers. Some come with a very small end-attachment where you might fasten a small length of brass tubing to fit into the chamber.

Jim

[John Boy]

There is no real reason to field strip a single shot breach loading rifle. Blow back easily wiped off with a lubed shop rag & a Q Tip
Bore: Consider a hand steam cleaner (steam is better than hot water) - brush - patch - lubed patch and usually all is need unless the patch is gray per Don's post
Eezox is an excellent rust preventative - lube and cleaner. Am on my 3rd quart now

[bigted]

the above methods work very well and I wont take up space for a repeat...however..

the actions of rifles...[all]...and the pistols...[all]...have never been a trouble with shooting bp in. the cleaning needed is rarely more then a copious squirt or 5 of rem oil into the crevices and into the action after the barrel cleaning to retard the harm that the tiny bit of fouling that might creep into the action area. if your cases swell into the chamber completely...then unless you really carelessly allow those cases to linger upside down pointed into the action area...then all but a minute amount stays in the bore.

in my lever guns I allow the last case to remain in the chamber for the swabbing of the bore from the muzzle and they catch the fouling as it is scraped from the bore from the muzzle. upon removing this tarnished case I am careful to not allow it to spill into the action and my levers never have had any trouble with fouling in the action.

my ruger new model vaquero is the most complicated of handguns...[amazing huh]...with the tiny balls and springs that they seem to need and it is clean and sweet as ever after shooting bp thru it. I shoot a Ruger 357 and a Smith 29 with bp and they remain clean and spotless in the action with the copious rem oil spray after use.

all that is required is the retardation of the water drawing action of un-touched black powder residue after firing....whether from a rifle...front loader...handgun...shotgun.

[ColColt]

BP finds its way into every little nook and cranny in a revolver. I've found traces of it behind the hand(pawl) and under the bolt in SA revolvers. The crevice behind the hand gets dirty as well and on the bolt/trigger spring. I use to disassemble the revolver be it a 44 Remington or 45 Colt. Got to be too much trouble. Don't clean rifles/pistols inside with hot, soapy water-you will get run out of the house.

[CanoeRoller]

I like to pop my primers while I am at the range, drop the shells into soap water, and let them soak for a bit. Once home, rinse them with hot water until the suds are gone, drop them onto a towel, and when they are dry tumble them for a while until they no longer appear grimy. Yes, this leave them less than shiny, but pretty does not win the match.

[grampa243]

1 part each Alcohol; Murphy's oil Soap; hydrogen peroxide. I use this on my cap and ball guns and muzzle loaders. patch out dry wipe down the outside and call it good. after a day i oil all the moving parts.

i'll never use soapy water again. :)

[NickSS]

I find cleaning of BP breach loading rifles shooting BP to be easier than cleaning the same rifle shot with smokeless powder. On average I run one patch lubed with saliva Through it when I finish shooting. This gets 90% of the fouling out at the range. When I get home I run a patch or two with a 50-50 mixture of Balistol and water through the bore followed by a dry patch followed by an oily patch and I am done cleaning. While this is going on the brass is soaking in hot water with a little dish washing liquid. I shake it up and drane and riun a couple of rounds of clean water until the soap is gone and let the cases dry. I size the cases and touble to get them clean but not shinny and they are ready for reloading. It always amaizes me when people complain that BP is so hard to clean.

[Lead Fred]

Front Stuffers get cleaned with Hot soapy water,, Then dry patched & lubed ; )
H/D

Anything more is a waste of time and money.

If you use petroleum based anything with holy black, you will end up with goo.

If you have to buy stuff, get Thompson Center's 1000+ lube and No 13 cleaner.

Or PM me and Ill send you what you need to make both of these.

Its called moose milk & moose snot.

Anything else is counter productive

[EDG]

I don't why you would think BP is easier than smokeless. Alox is a rust preventative product. Lubes made with it result in a bore that really needs practically no cleaning. At most run a patch with Hoppes though and put it away. No Balistol, no water, no brass clean up either. Your way actually is a PIA when you have 5 or 6 rifles.



I find cleaning of BP breach loading rifles shooting BP to be easier than cleaning the same rifle shot with smokeless powder. On average I run one patch lubed with saliva Through it when I finish shooting. This gets 90% of the fouling out at the range. When I get home I run a patch or two with a 50-50 mixture of Balistol and water through the bore followed by a dry patch followed by an oily patch and I am done cleaning. While this is going on the brass is soaking in hot water with a little dish washing liquid. I shake it up and drane and riun a couple of rounds of clean water until the soap is gone and let the cases dry. I size the cases and touble to get them clean but not shinny and they are ready for reloading. It always amaizes me when people complain that BP is so hard to clean.

[cajun shooter]

The mixing of water and Ballistol works much better at a 7-1 ratio. Seven parts water to one part Ballistol. I use a commercial spray bottle from Home Depot or Lowe's. If mixed any heavier it will separate and not stay mixed. I mix 14 ounces of water with two ounces of Ballistol at a time.
It is made for metal, wood, leather and therefore may be sprayed all over and into the inner workings to flush any BP fouling. If you cut yourself, it will also work for that.
I spray my guns down after a match until they are dripping and then use patches to finish up. You then only need to give all metal parts a coat of EEZOX to finish everything off. I would in no way call this a PITA.
My cleaning consist of two USFA 44WCF revolvers, one 1873 44WCF rifle and a TTN 12 gauge SXS. All done in about thirty minutes. This includes the stripping down of each gun.
Perhaps when one is not as experienced he may find it a chore but not when you know how to do it.

[Randy C]

:coffeecom

[Matt85]

been shooting muzzle stuffers for a while and BP residue is pretty easy to clean up. for most cleaning i just use plain ol water and it works just fine. BP residue is actually easier to clean up then smokeless powder residue as BP residue soaks up water like a sponge then becomes soft. i have also used denatured alchohol with a great deal of success. for my original Springfield trapdoor rifle i just poor a cup of water down the barrel via a funnel at the breech end then run a couple dry patches followed by a patched lubed with CLP and done! ive never seen a need for soap or other products but i do use denatured alchohol on revolvers or guns with more complicated actions that get exposes to powder residue cause the water is tougher to get out and will cause rust.

in most cases cleaning up after BP isnt any more difficult then smokeless.

-matt

[Geno51]

Moose Snot Lube:
Stumpy's Moose Snot

A premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range.
SPECIFICALLY designed for use of patched round balls in a loading block

Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.


Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water. ( A double-boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups). Add just enough water to the pot so that the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will often be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a generous teaspoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy, smooth and more smearable - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.
================================================== ================================================== ==
Now Moose Juice:
So great in fact that here and now, I'm going to suggest that it stands apart from the many various "Moose Milks" that are out there thus it deserves a special name.
I humbly suggest that it should be called
MOOSE JUICE .

For those unfamiliar with the ingrediants, here you go. (For those who don't want to make a full quart like his original recipe makes, I've taken the liberty of reducing the amounts to make 8 ounces (one cup) for your squeezeable mustard bottle).

Stumpy's Moose Juice

A general purpose blackpowder solvent and liquid patch lube. Shake well before using. Can be allowed to dry on dipped patching for a dry lube dry flat on waxed paper & dip twice for best saturation). Add ingredients in the following order and shake well after each is added.

Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 4 TABLESPOONS
Castor Oil 1 1/2 TABLESPOONS
Murphys Oil Soap 1 1/2 TEASPOONS
Witch Hazel 2 TABLESPOONS
Water (non-chlorinated) 1/2 CUP

[Hip's Ax]

I only have my 2 CPA target rifles, one 45-70 and one 45-90. I wipe the bore with moose milk patches after every shot all day anyway so cleaning at the end of the day is only a little more than one of my smokeless rifles. Goex takes a little more cleaning then Swiss does.

Our moose milk is 10:1 Tru Sol water soluable machinists oil and water. At the end of the day I put moose milk patches through untill they come out clean. Then a normal cleaning with Shooter's Choice, 20 strokes with a bronze brush then patch out until dry. I oil the bore with Butch's Gun oil, spray out the reciever with aerosol Rem Oil then I wipe the rifle down with Rem Oil. I have never had any rust or leading problems.

I use to clean my cartridge cases with test tube brushes but it was not getting the fouling out. Finally I sprung for a new Thumler's high speed Model B and Buffalo Arms ceramic media and compound. I drop the fired cases into Dawn and water at the firing line, rinse them off at home and deprime. 2 hours in the tumbler with the ceramic and they look brand new. We don't resize ever, we slip fit the new bullet on top of the powder that is compressed so as to set the OAL such that the bullet just touches the lands. They shoot awesome out to 1000 yards.

[concho]

Hodgton triple 7 is super easy to clean I use 3f in all my guns .

[montana_charlie]

Hodgton triple 7 is super easy to clean I use 3f in all my guns .
Have you EVER used black powder?

[country gent]

I use balistol water mix at the range or windex with vineger ( when I can find it) to clean with. Normally after a 10 shot string its 2 damp patches and the dry comes out slightly grey. After Im done I will rune 2 -4 wet patches down and let soak for a few mins. A couple dry then a wet and let soak on the ride home. Once home I put the brass to soaking, and dry the barrel Ussually patches are a light grey. Then brush with shooter choice and let soak while I set the cases out to dry. A few dry patches and barrel is clean. I run a patch with my emmerts improved lube a few strokes thru the bore. This provides lube and rust prevention for short term. Wipe down the outside with Barricade on a rag. I keep the rag in a ziplock bag so once impregnated its always ready. I normally shoot between 40-60 rds in a range trip. I normally shoot paper patched bullets so leading isnt an issue. Barrel condition also affects how easy hard a barrel cleans. A rough barrel has more creases groove to hold fouling and getting it out of these can be hard. A smooth glass like barrel wipes down pretty fast. A patch with alot of Knap like flannel or cotton carries alot more crud than a smooth cloth.

[TXGunNut]

Sharps rifle isn't much fun to clean after shooting BP. I'm done in no time with moose milk, a few patches and a dab of bore butter. Today I was lucky, fired my 1858 Remmy and a Coly SAA and got to piddle around for awhile. Still done in less time than it sometimes takes to clean one gun fired with smokeless.

[bigted]

folks take for granted that the smokeless is a non issue for cleaning and put em away dirty ... well this is not the way us old timers were brung up anyway and when I do try to clean em from the smokeless it takes longer by a bit to get em as clean as when I shoot the original blackpowder.

I still do shoot some smokeless but then when I go back to my blackpowder shooting and cleanup after it always amazes me at the short time it takes to get a sparkling shiny clean gun shooting the god blessed powder that is such a hoot to play with.

either you don't clean your smokeless guns to be as clean as they need to be ...[my estimation anyway]... or your method of cleaning a blackpowder fouled gun is in error.

[prs]

You guys actually clean them? ;-) Helzbells, yer jest gonna shoot'm agin tomorrow. Rite?

prs

[bigted]

here is what I look for in a clean gun ;

1- is it putting out spotless patch's?
2- is there any surface that is not absolutely shiny and clean anywhere?
3- can I get any residue on any cloth anywhere I decide to rub it?
4- would my Dad send me back to my room to re-clean it? ... [smilie=l:

if I can answer these questions honestly then and only then is it clean. my BP guns clean to this state in just a couple minutes when all is working fine and I have not deviated from my routine. PLUS ... I LIKE holding my blackpowder gunz and fondling them so the extra care given[when I just set and hold em and cherish the workmanship that went into inventing them and the devotion garnered from them] ... is no drudgery to me. unlike those smokless "tools" that have no character and still have machine marks in and on em.

just my 2 centavo's ... Again.

[Whiterabbit]

I want to know how you guys clean the breechface. The powder fouling is always hardest on the breechface. I can clean my flintlock bore in about 3 minutes to SHINY, and the breech stays dirty for 15 minutes.

I have a breechface scraper, and I scrape, then patch, scrape then patch, sometimes soak, then scrape then patch then soak....

Just takes a long time to get through the layer to metal.

There has to be a better way! Besides chucking my rod into a cordless drill and spinning that scraper for 3 minutes.

[montana_charlie]

I want to know how you guys clean the breechface. The powder fouling is always hardest on the breechface. I can clean my flintlock bore in about 3 minutes to SHINY, and the breech stays dirty for 15 minutes.

I have a breechface scraper, and I scrape, then patch, scrape then patch, sometimes soak, then scrape then patch then soak....

Just takes a long time to get through the layer to metal.

There has to be a better way! Besides chucking my rod into a cordless drill and spinning that scraper for 3 minutes.
It would seem that you are not talking about a cartridge rifle, here.
My advice, to clean a muzzleloader breechface, is to unscrew the breech plug and work it over.
But, if you go over to the Muzzleloading forum, they may have even better ideas.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?16-Muzzleloading

CM

[waksupi]

I want to know how you guys clean the breechface. The powder fouling is always hardest on the breechface. I can clean my flintlock bore in about 3 minutes to SHINY, and the breech stays dirty for 15 minutes.

I have a breechface scraper, and I scrape, then patch, scrape then patch, sometimes soak, then scrape then patch then soak....

Just takes a long time to get through the layer to metal.

There has to be a better way! Besides chucking my rod into a cordless drill and spinning that scraper for 3 minutes.

I plug the vent on my flinters, and fill with cold water. Let set about 5-10 minutes, dump the water, then use the breech scraper.
It shouldn't take as much scraping as you have to do. Does it foul that bad every time?

[Whiterabbit]

yes. how much pressure do you put on the scraper?

[waksupi]

yes. how much pressure do you put on the scraper?

Not much, I just spin it back and forth with my fingers. Try using a different lube, it may be making tar.

[bigted]

yes the tar from NON blackpowder friendly lube IS a very vexious form of abuse to bp shooters. it be funny as to what it takes to make this TAR but once ya get it the first time ya will never wanna go down that road again.

[TXGunNut]

I watched a guy make tar one afternoon in Raton several years back. He was trying different commercial projectiles and powders in an inline rifle, had a bear hunt the next day. I tried to help but he just kept on making a mess of things. Hope the rest of his hunt went better.

[HDS]

Well I've been cleaning with ballistol and moose milk but I must be doing something wrong. Cleaned my new SAA after shooting BP in it by disassembling and hosing it down with moose milk, also applied it in the bore and cylinder chambers and ran patches through them until it looked clean. Then I wiped the frame and parts again with pure ballistol.

A week later I wipe it with a white cloth and it's definitely brown stuff on it. Almost didn't get out the center pin but wiping it down yielded a lot of brown rust looking goop on it. Ballistol alone doesn't seem to protect that well against rust.

I wiped them down with Eezox then which I have just acquired, took it apart a few days later again and this time things looked clean and no rust. So I will be finishing my cleaning procedure with eezox.

I am not sure if I should use a copper brush in the bore as well rather than just patches.

Also is there anything I should consider when I shoot 38spl out of 357 chambered guns?

[Whiterabbit]

I dont use a water soluble product as a preservative, no matter what 1911 guys online tell me. I use it to clean out the BP, lube patches, wipe between shots, but after cleaning I put a water displacing oil down the barrel (or just an oil) then check a few days later. sometimes I find I didn't "do good enough", and put one more oil patch down the bore. I could check it every week for a month and no issue after that. I assume. I haven't been letting it go more than 2-3 weeks without shooting it again :)

[montana_charlie]

Anytime you use water to clean a firearm, or anything else made of ferrous metal, it is necessary to dry the piece thoroughly before storage. Adding an oil for further protection can be advisable, or required, but getting all of the water out is mandatory.

CM

[TXGunNut]

I wipe it down, inside & out, with Wonder Lube after cleaning with moose milk. Makes it look purty and even smells good.

[earshot]

Three patches water with soap, dry patch followed by two patches of a ACF50/Castrol motoroil mix.....works fine for me.
Oh, and always a dry patch before shooting.

[rbertalotto]

Some one is marketing a steam cleaner for BP rifles. Cleans and dries the bore.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

What do you do about the carbon left behind in the barrel? Water does not remove that?

KW
The Lunger

[earshot]

That might be this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYSj92UasZU

[Kenny Wasserburger]

yeah uh huh, Steam won't touch it either. Carbon is an inogranic compound, water will not touch it. Uncle Sam figured this out some time ago.

There is a couple of solvents that do though.

KW

[45bpcr]

I'll use water and soap to get out the "goo"
Then I'll scrub the bore with a brush, a metal brush and a "solvent" like shooters choice or Hoppes #9
A clean bore is a clean bore and water will not remove baked on carbon.

Kenny's smarter than me and a better shot. Listen to him.
don't know ifin he's a single malt drinker though

45bpcr.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Burbon guy here but do like a few single malts.[smilie=l:

Years ago at the Shot show spent a hour or so with Butch Fisher, visting about accuracy, 2005. I knew about MP-7 being used by the US Military but did not know all the why or where too fors.

After my Vist with Butch, he gave me a bottle of Butch's BP Bore Shine. Shooters Choice and Hopes will work on Carbon but not nearly as well as Butch's stuff. I have been a die hard Butch's Fan ever since for cleaning my Sharps Rifles, My old Long Range rifle has shot and holds a few still, world records-national Records from 200 yards to a mile.

Another Product is Carb-out and Tony Boyer a world Class bench rest shooter used it, after giving up on JB's.

Another used by some top BP Long range shooters is GM Top Engine Cleaner.

KW
The Lunger

[45bpcr]

Butch's BP bore shine is a great solvent.
I've used GM top engine cleaner to soak my wiping patches with and it works great.
It was funny ordering it from the local dealer as they don't use it much anymore. The parts guy asked me if we had the equipment to use it with and I said no, it's going down a gun barrel. He was just all confused so I asked him if he was a shooter and he was, shoots alot with AR's. I told him to bring a bottle home and soak his bolt and carrier in the stuff then spray it off with Brakleen. He called back the next day laughing as he and a bunch of guys in the shop ordered 3 cases of the stuff for their AR's.

C

[Don McDowell]

I've been using the Montana Extreme Cowboy blend, and followed with their bore conditioning accuracy oil. So far am really impressed with how well the stuff is working in my 44 and Carols hiwall.

[bigted]

why ive never heard so much heresy in 1 post !!! :shock: water n bull$&!( is all needed for cleaning these terribly exotic rifles shooting the terrible blackpowder. all know that all that's required is hot water and spit ! quit kiddin round now ... seriously... STOP IT!!!

I gotta confess that I use shooters choice every once inna while and have been know to allow my rifles to sniff the butch's bp bore shine as well as his regular bore shine. they all do an acceptable job and do aid in the cleanliness that I depend on for when I put em away for a spell. if im gonna just dig em out the next day tho I usually just do my soapy water and ballistol/water mix to clean and rem oil to preserve and ensure that all water is displaced till the next day. occasionally I even give em a bath with turpentine if I assume there may be some lead tucked away in the tight crevices.

[oldred]

OK, my 2 cents worth. I just do as I have done for over 30 years with my muzzle loaders, swab the barrel with hot soapy water followed by clear hot water then a couple of dry patches. I then wipe the bore with oil, sometimes just a light machine oil or sometimes Rem oil depending on what's handy at the time and the bore on my High Wall stays shinny and clean. Really it's simple cleaning after BP, I mean REALLY simple and a bit of soapy water followed by drying/oiling the bore seems to be all that's needed or have I been missing something?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Oldred,

Could be missing something.....the Carbon. And A quick look says this is a bpcr thread not muzzle stuffer.
All kidding aside, I was pretty sure I was getting my rifle bore clean too, Untill I did a bit of looking and research. Then Tried the stuff. OH WOW!

I get a kick out of the bore butter crowd, its nothing but chapstick, and I have seen two barrels with it Cooked-tarred into the barrel so bad that it would not come out, and I used to use the junk. For my Muzzle loaders and Cartridge rifles. Saw one shiloh barrel so bad that it quit shooting period.

KW
The Lunger

My first Shiloh Barrel ran 19,800 rounds in less then 10 years, it had a tiny bit of erroison and some checking in the steel in the throat area.......seen with a Hawkeye bore scope. (Kirk Bryan's by the way) This was in a 45-110. The rifle was rebarreled by Shiloh in 2005 under waranty, second barrel has won a ton of stuff and never has had anything but Butch's BP Bore shine used in it for solvent and Kroil Oil. Have used Shiloh Creek a few times when I shot greasers, but gave them up in 2008 and shot Paper Patch ever since.

[country gent]

I bought my Hawkeye bore scope to check errosion in throats of high power rifles, was great for that. But it also showed me what a clean barrel is, looking down the barrel dosnt show near as much as the 90 deg view of the bore scope does. WHat an awaking. I now clean with ballistol water or soap and water then shooters choice or butches after. Not a big deal But never realized till I was able to "see" what was there.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Amen there Country gent! AMEN!

Most folks are kidding themselves thinking they have a clean bore. Bore scopes and sawed up Rifle barrels Show tons.

I had a 45-70 give me some issues...... one of my first Shiloh's After many years it just quit shooting any semblance of accuracy, I bore scoped it, (actually Steve Garbe did) then I took it to Shiloh, Kirk sawed the barrel into several sections then then lengthways, It had a section 10 inches from the muzzle were a ring of rifling had broken out of the barrel. that was full of lead and carbon. It now has a new barrel in 40-70 SS. Shiloh stands behind their barrels. This was a early Bryan Gun in the 2XXX range.

KW

[Kermit1945]

Carbon is an inogranic compound...
KW

Kenny, you may have some good information, but this ain't part of it. Carbon is an ELEMENT, not a COMPOUND, and by definition carbon or any compound containing the element carbon is ORGANIC. Carbon is what separates organic from inorganic chemistry. Anyone want disabuse me of my 50-year-old recall of all that college chem I took? Has something changed in the world of science and I wasn't informed? Could happen. I'm a little short on string theory too......... ;-/

[bigted]

hmmm ... im reading this with interest!

[Nobade]

A question for Kenny W. - do you still see carbon buildup in barrels shot with PP bullets? I ask because I have been keeping an eye on my smokeless barrels that are using PP and they all look like new after many thousands of rounds. But I never have checked my BP rifle barrels for carbon. I would assume it works the same way and the patch cleans the bore the same way but you would surely know better than me!

-Nobade

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kermit your right that Carbon is a element, I do not recall saying it was a compound. IT does form the basis of all life, yet after combustion its a compound as I understand? At least that was what I understood from Mr Fisher. Maybe We got the chem wrong, wont even argue that though as I perhaps did not understand Mr Fisher correctly.

Nobade you still get carbon left in the barrel after the combustion of the powder, also Graphite is carbon and is on the powder to begin with.

All I can say is that water alone will not clean a Barrel and I have seen carbon build up in several cut up barrels and under it was pitting. It can as I understand, form Carbonic acid with the correct moisture.

I used some what I thought was good stuff Thompson #13 as a bore cleaner and water in the past, When we switched to Butch's bore shine darkish gray fouling came out in spades and under the bore scope a much cleaner barrel. And it was not lead. Bore scopes show a lot more then just a lookie see down a barrel with the naked eye.

Kermit By all means use what ever you wish, as I related only what I have seen first hand, and what I use to get my barrels clean.

KW

[fouronesix]

Not to belabor the point, but elements are neither organic nor inorganic. Diamond is carbon. Carbon compounds are considered organic.

As to the cleaning, can't disagree with using whatever gets the bore clean. Depending on number of shots or frequency of shooting sessions- for the complete cleaning of MLs and BPCRs (maybe every third time for MLs and every time for BPCRs) I use either Hoppes 9 or Butch's as the last cleaning step then follow with a good oil for storage. Agree also that "bore butter" lube creates a very hard, tough coating (probably some form of carbon compound :)) that can cause problems as early as the second shot or in the long run if relied upon as the primary method for cleaning or storing.

[Kermit1945]

Carbon is an inogranic compound...
KW

Perhaps I misunderstood.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the tip Kenny. I just picked up some Butches Bore Shine for BP. One of these days I'll have to buy myself a bore scope too.

Chris.

[country gent]

Gunlaker I bought my Hawkeye back in 2000 and its one of the most used tools on my bench. It allows you to see where nothing else will. My personal rule is after borrowing somethig 3 times I purchase one. I borrowed my buddies 3 times in 2 months. They are a great tool the only draw back is pumps semi auto leveractions or actions with an ejection port and no thru hole as you cant get in from the chmaber end then. Mine is 17" so from the muzzle it gets most of a normal barrel. The big trick is learning what your looking at.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ah Kermit got ya, yup I should of said element, Nope you read it right. I am sorry you feel I give poor advice and info, I am man enough to admit I used the wrong word. I will stand by my results and findings on the target using a solvent that will work on carbon although.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

4-1-6, I have seen two shiloh Barrels just quit shooting and had such a build up of bore butter in then that was un-real. I quit using the stuff on the spot. A good friend of mine still has one barrel he took off and after it was bore scoped he decided to just put on a new barrel.

I have always wondered what amount of effort it would take to get that barrel to shoot again.

KW

[af2fb751]

What everyone is intending to say is that elemental carbon isn't soluable in water nor in any other common solvent. One reason why carbon makes good water filters. Compounds with carbon maybe soluable, depending whether they're hydrophilic or hydrophobic. Commercial solvents/reactants have some success at getting the carbon out though, c4 comes to mind.

[montana_charlie]

Compounds with carbon maybe soluable, depending whether they're hydrophilic or hydrophobic.
One of those is carbon dioxide. It IS soluable in water, and produces "Carbonic acid" ... which is the 'carbonated water' used in soft drinks.

But I doubt that carbon dioxide lingers in a fouled barrel.

CM

[CanoeRoller]

The carbon question is interesting. I posted a query to the neighborhood chemist about how to clean a build up of carbon. After convincing her that I had not broken anything in the house, my wife (who is a chemist) recommended sodium hydroxide (lye), calcium hydroxide (lime water) or hydrogen peroxide. All of these would be a bit hard on the metal, not to mention people in the area, but if it is an attempt to get an otherwise dead barrel back into service, and you take some safety precautions, they might be worth a try.

The idea of hydrogen peroxide tickles me....when someone asks you if your barrel is clean, you can say, "Not just clean, sanitary."

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Well no mater how you look at it, it's been an interesting chem lesson. MP-7 was developed by Uncle Sam to clean carbon build up on chain guns, I guess it got real bad.??? Butch's has it in it and so does several other solvents. I know a good friend years ago bought a 5 gallon can of the stuff it was very very pricey he and quite a few other shooters split the cost. The Mention of Hydrogen Peroxide: I think A few old cleaning fluids mentioned it in the mix also.

I just use Butch's and it seems to do a good job, the other one mentioned is GM top Cylinder cleaner supposed to really work well.

KW

[Kermit1945]

Good advice and info, Kenny. I'm just picking a small nit--a bad habit of mine. It's been a useful discussion.

Question about hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, for anyone using it to clean barrels. I'm recalling that it's a really reactive oxidizer (read: rusting agent). Any problems experienced of this nature? Anyone have methods for keeping this effect to zero?

[waksupi]

4-1-6, I have seen two shiloh Barrels just quit shooting and had such a build up of bore butter in then that was un-real. I quit using the stuff on the spot. A good friend of mine still has one barrel he took off and after it was bore scoped he decided to just put on a new barrel.

I have always wondered what amount of effort it would take to get that barrel to shoot again.

KW

Does the same thing to muzzle loader barrels. Nasty stuff.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Gota agree with Rick there Nasty stuff! Flash rusting in a mater of seconds.

And something else to share, Today ran to the local gun club to get Mech Zero on my Long range scope that I used up in Big Whiskey last weekend for my Silhouette rifle. I decided to try some stuff I won a couple years ago from Dave Gullo M-Pro-7. Well First did 3 damp 1-7 water soluble oil and water patches, to clean the major stuff out of the barrel even with 70's temps and 52% humidity it took 3 of them to get all the major fouling clear of the barrel and was what I was using to wipe between shots.

Then a couple wet soapy Butch's patches then dry, using the arsenal patches of Rhoades to dry, pulled a lot of carbon! I decided after drying real well to try the M-Pro stuff, looked the same after a wet twice down the bore, the Dry also pulled a lot of CARBON! after 2 sets of each I quit still some carbon but I am thinking a little is always good and perhaps One can over clean the barrel.

This barrel since 2008 has about 2000 PP loads down it, I parked it a good part of that time due to shooting the Heavy Tollofson Rifle for testing and Long Range competition. Since the begining of this year I have put about 400 round through it this year and will be putting about 100 total through it next Friday and Sat at Raton.

I still am a firm frim beliver in using Butch's BP Bore shine, using it has resulted in some excellent scores over the past few years a World Record group with PP in the Pedersoli 5@200, 2 Scope Winternationals Titles, and a new world records for overall score, single relay score and hits in a single Relay at the Mile match.

I wont be changing, but the M-pro-7, that stuff maybe worth looking at REAL HARD!

KW
The Lunger

PS Kermit no harm no foul, My illness has made me a much mellower person these days.

[John Boy]

Gotta ask - what is the source of elemental carbon shooting a black powder reload?
Why? Because the composition of the foul is potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulfide with no elemental carbon in the bicarbonate. It's soluble in water but not in alcohol

[fouronesix]

The "solids" product of burning standard formula blackpowder is a real cocktail that includes: potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon and ammonium carbonate. I assume most of the elemental carbon would come from charcoal.

[martinibelgian]

[QUOTE=Kenny Wasserburger;2390700]

I wont be changing, but the M-pro-7, that stuff maybe worth looking at REAL HARD!

Got a bottle of that stuff too - it is my go-to cleaner when nothing else will do the trick. and yes, you can overclean with it, especially on a rifle with a somewhat rough bore: I can get it (A Steyr-Martini in #2 Musket, model 1879) so sqeaky clean that it will need 5-6 shots to get back to consistent grouping. It really is good stuff.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don't forget the Graphite coating on the powder.

KW

[fouronesix]

Probably very true about the graphite. All I know is that given the complex mixture of burn products left by BP plus any lube plus any residuals from bore swabbing/cleaning or pre-lubing all together heated and pressurized is going to leave one heckuva complex witch's brew in the bore. Hat's off to anyone, chemist or not, who can come up with a cleaner that will address that type fouling.

I "ate up" and enjoyed math and physics, including quantum physics, for 5 1/2 years in school but never did like organic chemistry! I'll leave that stuff for others to tackle. I'm all ears about what works and what doesn't from the experiences of others. I know Butch's works, but will also give M-Pro7 a try.