Questions for FFL holders

[Boerrancher]

As many of you know my father was a gunsmith and I helped put myself through college practicing the trade. Through some fortunate or unfortunate events it looks like I may end up with Dad's house and Shop building, which are just a mile or so from where I live now. Both are empty for the most part, but both have separate addresses and even though they are on the same property two different deeds.

Dad gave up his FFL back in the late 70's because the ATF told him and his partner they couldn't work out of his partners basement shop, and that they had to have a mfg's license because they were assembling guns. Dad and Don told the feds to shove the FFLs you know where, and then started buying actions from an FFL holder and guns from individuals in order to continue their custom rifle building. They would never sell 6 or more guns a year apiece so they were not in violation there.

Here are my thoughts: If I do end up with Dad's house and shop building, I am planning on renting the house, and keeping the shop under lock and key for my own use. I am thinking about doing gunsmithing again, and building a few custom rifles as I have several nice commercial 98 actions dad left me. I am also thinking about doing on the spot gun repair. Folks come in with their gun, I diagnose the problem and either fix it on the spot or order parts and they leave with it fixed or leave with it until the parts come in and I then call tell them the parts are in and when they return I do an on the spot repair. I never keep a gun overnight.

Here is my question: I don't plan on advertising, except by word of mouth. I don't want to deal in guns, buy or sell them other than the 2 or 3 a year I build, so How can the Feds get to me? I am not keeping or transferring guns, I am not trading or dealing in guns, and as of yet face to face sales are not illegal and an FFL is not required to Sell fewer than 6 guns a year. Does anyone see any problems that could arise with the Fed's? I don't want to become another Randy Weaver.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Sweetpea]

Joe, I think a good, reputable attorney that specializes in firearms litigation could be of much help to you.

Gonna cost some cash for just a consultation, but MUCH better than the alternative!

Brandon

[DCP]

Just call The BATF and record the agent name and the date.

[41 mag fan]

NRA-ILA might be of some help to.
Joe, you go into building guns, I might be interested in one. Keep me in mind and let me know after you get things worked out with the federal part.

[rockrat]

big difference between breaking the law and avoiding breaking the law. he wants to know what the boundaries are. If he does "X", is he within the law, or crossed the line.

Are you intending on making a living at it? If so, FFL reqd. Building a rifle or two a year, might be OK without one, but a call to BATFE might be a good idea, same with asking them if you replace parts on a gun. Be sure to tell them you won't be keeping a gun overnight.

[Dorf]

FWIW: I like the idea about calling the BATF&E for their opinion. However, having said that I'll pass along some advice I got from an accountant some years ago regarding IRS and Tax Regs. "Call the IRS and ask your question(s), do that three times and get different agents each time. Pick the answer you like the best and go with it. (Get the name and ext. of the Agent though.) They don't have any idea what's in the "book" either!" YMMV :-) Stan

[wv109323]

I think you might get away with building the rifles if done one at a time. If for some reason the BATFE got wind of your garage and they walked in and found 50 Mauser actions, I think you would be in deep doo-doo.
The other key words in the regulations is "engaging in the business". That can be interpreted several ways. But if you made a substantial profit you would be in violation. There is also a clause something like making profit that "contributes to your livelihood".
Also if you ordered parts on a continual basis I think the BATFE could prove a business along with having a building or site to work. They could consider that a "storefront".
I would proceed with caution.

[DCP]

ATF BATF BATFE AND BATF&E ARE ALL THE SAME PLACE OR THING

ATF IS where the web site is http://www.atf.gov/

[462]

I have only a C&R license, but whenever I had questions, ATF was more than helpful -- both on the phone and via e-mail.

[eljefe]

There is no six or fewer guns per year rule...you are
either in business, or you are not. If you build and sell
custom guns, you will be engaged in the business, and
you will need a license.

There is nothing that says you have to make a "substantial"
profit, or make your living at what you are doing.
For the exact regulations, here is a link.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=af00ead46dd2f724b24eead2ca5065ad&n=27y3.0.1.2.3.2&r=SUBPART&ty=HTML

I am not trying to rain on your parade...just pointing
out that this may be an onerous process.

Personally, I would just get the license. That is, of course,
if you are going to make enough to pay for the fees, insurance,
etc. I have not found dealing with ATF all that difficult.

[SciFiJim]

Before I even got to the question of ATF rules, I was wondering about how close the shop was to the house and how secure the shop building is. It seems that a lot of renters now a days seem intent on stealing and trashing every thing they can get time alone with. If they know that you have "gun stuff" in the shop, they or a visiting friend of theirs might make an effort to enter the shop when no one else is looking.

[bgoff_ak]

+1 on calling the BATF ( actually e-mail so you can document it ) i have called them many a time for NFA questions. ( they are always fairly helpful, but yes expect differing answers ) also I don't know how to say +1^10 , about spending a little money now to talk to a blood sucking attorney ( you want the best you can't afford ) what sounds really good in your head, maybe that little voice that makes us do bad things... at least he ( or she now a days ) can at least give you guidance to keep you out of federal pound me in the A** prison. it may be a moot issue untill you hear knock,knock,knock 10 years from now.

[Boerrancher]

Thanks fellas for all of the responses. I think I will just forget the whole thing. I will assemble a rifle every so often and play with it for a bit and if I don't like it I will pass it on. That way I will not be building anything that isn't for me and won't be working on anything that isn't mine. The parts that I do order will be few and far between as it will be just a hobby the same as it is now. My gut tells me that even though it sounded like a great idea, it probably isn't. Thanks again for the input.

Best wishes,

Joe

[SciFiJim]

Joe,

Don't give up on a dream, just because it may be difficult. Talk to the ATF and tell them what you want to do. Who knows, perhaps you will get a sympathetic agent that will help you through the process. Your idea has merit. A rapid turn around on gun repair helps to get unsafe or damaged firearms safe again.

[Blacksmith]

You might want to look at a C&R. You can buy and sell for your collection so if you buy parts to repair or build for your collection and later sell something from your collection to get something else that will enhance your collection it's OK. A number of suppliers give dealer pricing to C&R holders.

[bgoff_ak]

really it is just a little bit of paper work, and a few bucks. either way you go... the first time i did an NFA it felt like i had to jump through flaming hoops, now its about 5 min and a little ink. ( I don't have an FFL ) but i have been reading all the paper work to get mine and it about the same process ( less the 8 month wait for an NFA! ) if its something you want to do i'd say hell at least give it a whirl... no telling how long they are still going to give those things out.