Bullet for Buffalo

[Griz44mag]

OK,
I have been presented with an opportunity to go hunt buffalo.
I really want to take my beast with a cast bullet.
So here is a question for those who have hunted 1,000# animals.
Is a 308 Win adequate for hunting buffalo?
Is a 225-250gr lead flat nose adequate for making an ethical kill?
Range will be 100-200 yards.
Backup gun will be .416 Rigby (my hunting buddy) who thinks cannons are going to be too small.
I have also poised this question to the ranch owner, and have not yet received a response.

[lonewelder]

I have never hunted buffalo but I don't feel 308win is ethical for them besides a well placed head shot.Just my thoughts

[lonewelder]

Besides everyone knows you can't kill a buff with a lead boolit!

[rexherring]

Shot placement is still the key. A young girl here just got a nice bull with her .30-06. My buddy shot his with a .270. The .308 should work with a good bullet like a Nosler Partition 180 because you do need some penetration. They are not as hard to drop as a water buffalo but still can be tough. So your lead slug should do the job as long as you can put it where it belongs.

[Doc Highwall]

I killed a moose that dressed out at 900 lbs. with a 30/06 with one shot, a 190 grain Hornady interlock.

Shot placement with a good constructed bullet will do the job.

W.D.Bell killed many elephants with a 7x57 and they weigh a lot more then a bison.

[btroj]

308 with cast wouldn't be my first choice.

Can anyone say 45-70?

I would want 35 cal or larger and 250 gr of lead if I am using cast.

[nicholst55]

308 with cast wouldn't be my first choice.

Can anyone say 45-70?

I would want 35 cal or larger and 250 gr of lead if I am using cast.

I'm inclined to agree. If a .308 is the biggest rifle you own, I would recommend a premium jacketed bullet.

[MT Chambers]

Buffalos deserve to be hunted with rifles of the great period of the buffalo hunts, a Sharps or Rem. RB, a soft lead bullet, and a case full of real black powder, this may be the perfect opportunity to grab the C. Sharps or Shiloh, that you know you've always wanted!!

[timspawn]

As this is a ranch hunt I would try and get to within less than 100 yards for my first shot and be ready for a follow up shot. You wont have to worry about loosing a wounded animal but you want to be as humane as possible. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but I have killed water buffalo with a 45-70 double rifle.

[crabo]

One thing to remember is the buffalo's herd mentality. They want to gather around a wounded animal and might make followup shots difficult depending on the situation.

[tall grass]

Yes sir, Dead or wounded the others will gather around. I have lots of respect for the Native Americans that hunted bison with sharp pointy things especially before there were horses to hunt from.

Jim

[runfiverun]

I want to see a picture of a 250 gr boolit that will work/fit in the 308 and stay above the neck.

I don't think penetration will be the problem.

[sharpsguy]

I've killed five buffalo, and seen another half dozen or so taken. Get a 45-70 and load it with a 500 grain cast bullet and you won't have any problem. 1150 to 1300 fps is the sweet spot for the velocity that gives complete pass through from shoulder to shoulder and out the other side. Make SURE there is no buffalo behind the one you are shooting, as if there is, you will probably kill two with one shot. Seriously.

A lot of buffalo were killed back in the day with a 40-70 Straight and a 45-90 shooting 330 to 385 grain cast bullets. That's about as light as I would go. You CAN kill one with a 308 and a cast bullet, it's just that I would use a 45 if it were me.

[RugerFan]

Depending on alloy and velocity, I think using a .308 with a heavy CB is very doable at 100 yards.

[quilbilly]

Having raised buff's for a dozen years, your 308 with the 200 will do just fine unless that adult cow or bull has blood in his/her eye and is aiming to do a little stomping on you (unlikely unless she has a calf and you are under 40 yards away). I always carried my 444 Marlin with 265 and later 310's cast in the herd's field and only had to use it once but was glad to have it. Sadly, I lost all my romantic notions about buff's. Never feed a buff a Dorito (Nacho Flavor) unless you enjoy having him/her in your lap.

[Lefty SRH]

Depending on alloy and velocity, I think using a .308 with a heavy CB is very doable at 100 yards.

This is what I'm thinking. I've started playing with a 215gr cast in my .308 Win with a 16" barrel. So far the second testing revealed 2 MOA (ironsights) and a velocity average of the best group was 2175fps.

[frank505]

I have killed them with a 223 to the wonderful 505 Gibbs. Watched dozens killed with about whatever stuff from 40 caliber on up. Because we said you cant shoot our buffalo with less than a 40, and I dont mean some pissant pistol cartridge. Marksmanship matters most of all, cows are fairly easy, bulls are very different. Take off the top of the heart and they go down quickly. Lung shots are slow killers, head shots if you know where the brain is, work very well.
Buffalo are built different and shot placement is the most important factor in your shoot.

[NVScouter]

As you put it. You have an oportunity, I think the small investment of a larger bore would at least fit the oportunity better. Where are you hunting?

[725]

A heavy cast would work if you can take out the lungs and heart. My .308 with a Bear Claw Bonded bullet in a HE cartridge went all the way through a very large Eland. Close & broadside. .45-70 is still a proven and preferred (by me) work-horse for such a job.

[Griz44mag]

I will be free range hunting on a private ranch in my home state of Texas. These are not fed farm animals, but as close to wild as I guess they can actually be these days. The hunt is a herd management hunt, the objective will be an older cow that has outlived her productive days. I do currently cast a 180gr lead (NOE 311-180) copper gas check them, lube with CR. I load them to 2100 FPS. Last season, I cast an almost identical bullet at 150gr and took several whitetail with it. Bullet passed completely through, but did not expand as much as I would like for it too. I figure a 180-200gr of the same material should perform very nicely on a bison cow. I can hold .55 MOA at 150 yards all day long with this round. Head shots are something I have taken in the past, but consider it to be a risk of wounding an animal instead of a clean kill. I have not done that in a few decades now. I am, and have been my whole life, a hunter that never takes a shot that I am not 99.9% sure of both entry and exit on my meat animals. I have allowed many deer to walk away when I could not get the perfect broadside shot. I should hear something back from the ranch owner today about his recommendation for caliber and bullet. I have gotten a very mixed opinion of what it takes to make an ethical kill on an American bison. I have been offered the use of a 50 cal caliber black powder rifle, and may consider that if I have time to do some load workups and chrony tests first. I am looking forward to this hunt, but want to make sure I respect both the game and the ranch owner.

[Griz44mag]

Never feed a buff a Dorito (Nacho Flavor) unless you enjoy having him/her in your lap.

LOL, --- That's a story I think I would enjoy hearing.....

[Griz44mag]

Anyone have any opinions on the CVA rifles?
I friend of mine just offered me one he has that he can't shoot anymore (shoulder surgery).
It's chambered in 45-70 gov.
Since this is a break-open can it be loaded to the "modern" full power loads like the Ruger #1?
Of course, that means I am going to need to buy another mold and another set of dies.
(ANY excuse for another caliber?)
I am determined to take this beast with a cast bullet, even if I have to build the gun around the bullet.

[NVScouter]

I've seen that CVA they arent bad rifles. The ones I have seen are conversions to 300BLK and such but its the same. I'd put them in the same strength as a T/C or other break actions. The frame can strech on those so loads in the #1 range are out of the question.

That being said the trapdoor 45-70 loads are great to shoot and real thumpers. Improving on those into levergun range will get that rifle about as warm as you will want to shoot it.

I'd stick with the 405-450g molds for that bison hunt. I'm a bit envious..........

[dk17hmr]

Based on the bison I have seen up in Yellowstone I would personally want something bigger than a 308 if I wasn't 100% sure I could put a bullet into the brain pan. With a cast bullet I would want at least .375 caliber, I have an agreement with my dad that if I draw a Wyoming buffalo tag I get to use his Pedersoli 45-70. I worked in Yellowstone monthly and often got to ride in on a snowmobile when no one else was really there. Heres a pic I snapped of a buff that wouldn't get out of the road.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/IMG_0653.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/dk17hmr/media/IMG_0653.jpg.html)

I was maybe 5 feet away from it on my snowmobile, I felt pretty small I can tell you that.

[waksupi]

For buffalo and muzzleloaders, a .62 is good medicine. Smaller bore sizes sometimes take more than one shot. I used a .358 win, with a 290 gr. boolit. Placed right, it does the job. I personally wouldn't use anything less, although I do know one rancher that on his ranch shoots a small bore. A shot behind the ear drops them right there.
A friend of mine runs hunts on a ranch down by Dillon. He sees a lot of various chamberings used. Many of the large African calibers have had pretty sad performance. His go-to round is a .50-90 for quick kills.

[Bullshop]

"""I can hold .55 MOA at 150 yards all day long with this round"""

So you are saying with this 180 gn NOE design at 2000 fps MV you are keeping all shots in about a .8" group at 150 yards all day long?
Should I feel ashamed of myself for thinking this might be a bit of exaggeration? Occasionally or even often I can come to grips with but always all day long sorry I just cant get that one down. I would really like to see it because it would be very encouraging to me to know it can be done and would set a bar for me to work at .
I am not trying to pic a fight here and I wont respond to anything that seems to be one all I am doing is stating my honest feelings.

[TCLouis]

Frank 505 and or waksupi can correct me, but I think a boolit properly place behind the ear ( there is a sweet spot as I understand it) will drop em right there.
Too bad you are not closer, I could likely find a 45-70 RB to let ya borrow.

[Bullshop]

My neighbor in Alaska has a bison farm. He has shot a whole bunch of them and has settled on two cartridges . When they run them down a shoot to be killed for slaughter they found that shooting at an animal head long and at a slight downward angle standing above the shoot their preferred cartridge and gun is a 45 acp 230 ball in a 1911. They say it gets to the brain but no farther. The no farther part is important to them because they get docked for excessive meat damage.
For in the field they prefer a 30/06 with 125gn Nosler BT bullets. He always shoots in the neck to minimize meat damage and says that with this load even if he misses the spine by a bit it still generally kills instantly because it blows up in the neck.

[felix]

Exactly, according to the old time deer hunters I knew. 3006, 125-130 grainer non-varmint, 2700+ fps, 100 yards will work every time: DRT. The new time deer hunters, typically sons of the old timers in MO, shoot for the neck also, but with the 270 using 130s at 2900+ for the same effects at up to and through 250 yards. Nobody I know from Swampeast MO wants to shoot cast, but one of my brothers will shoot 44 Keiths at 100 or less. He is a loner, according to him. It seems the 30-30s and the very few 35 Remmies are never shot. Reason: big time travel required to go deer hunting and no one likes to "take chances". Most, if not all, of these folks are meat hunters and care less for trophies. Females are preferred almost exclusively when there is a choice. My last deer hunt was during my high school years. Hunting is not my forte'. ... felix

[Idaho Mule]

If that's what I had, that's what I would use, I am 100 percent sure that the the 308 with a 200 gr cast boolit will get the buff dead. The secret is shot placement, as always. You put that boolit between the slats (ribs) at 100 to 200 yards then sit back and wait. She will be hurt right at first and not know it, but soon, as her now wounded lungs fill up with blood she will begin to stagger and finally fall. Slower than a brain shot for sure but still humane in my opinion. Instead of lights out instantly, the light just fades out. A bigger caliber, and bigger hole would be quicker, for sure. The 308 head on to the orbital joint even quicker. Orbital is the main thing there. Bovines can pack a lot of lead in their gray matter and not go down. JW

[waksupi]

"""I can hold .55 MOA at 150 yards all day long with this round"""

So you are saying with this 180 gn NOE design at 2000 fps MV you are keeping all shots in about a .8" group at 150 yards all day long?
Should I feel ashamed of myself for thinking this might be a bit of exaggeration? Occasionally or even often I can come to grips with but always all day long sorry I just cant get that one down. I would really like to see it because it would be very encouraging to me to know it can be done and would set a bar for me to work at .
I am not trying to pic a fight here and I wont respond to anything that seems to be one all I am doing is stating my honest feelings.

I have no idea why you would question this. I can shoot groups smaller than that all day, at twice the distance. As long as I resist the urge to try for a second shot.

[BruceB]

There sure are a lot of OPINIONS from people who have never done it, who have shot deer, who kill pen-raised animals, etc etc etc etc.

For my part, we hunted WOOD BISON for years in the Northwest Territories, and I learned a few things on the subject of killing big bison, in the course of taking a dozen or so of the beasts.

How big? The largest bison I killed was a bull of about twelve years. It yielded 1700 pounds of MEAT cut-and-wrapped in the freezer. 1700 pounds! Live weight.... maybe 3000 pounds. His hide spanned our 12-wide "company house" from up-one-wall to up-the-other=wall.Now, tell me about your damned deer rifles....

I want my animals DOWN and DEAD immediately, without waiting for some unknown amount of time for the verdict. Our bison lived in HEAVY BUSH, with no fences for many thousands of square miles of room for a wounded animal to vanish.

Our early experiences with shooting bison with "deer rifles" quickly disabused me of that concept. The .30-06/7mm Magnum rifles, even with heavy-for-caliber Partitions and the like, generally ended-up killing them....eventually. In disgust, I obtained a .404 Jeffrey for the job, and the difference is as night from day. I once watched a friend shoot a bull squarely in the forehead at close range with .30-06 220 factory loads... THREE TIMES. A final round from the side of his head ended the affair. The three forehead hits failed to penetrate the skull, or to put the animal down.

You people are talking about using North-American deer rifles on animals that can rival AFRICAN big game in size. Show at least a LITTLE respect for the creatures.

Personally, bison rifles would start with a heavy-bullet .338 load. The outfitter who ran Wood Bison hunts for visiting hunters out of Fort Smith, NWT, was a native gent named Frank Laviolette. By the time I met him, he DEMANDED that his sport hunters brought at least a .375 H&H.... do you suppose that just maybe he knew a thing or two?

[725]

Sure sounds like your NOE 311-180 with your skills and outlook will be big medicine for the buff. Good luck & have fun.

[Griz44mag]

I am not trying to pic a fight here and I wont respond to anything that seems to be one all I am doing is stating my honest feelings.
My Rem has been accurized, bolt face squared, lapped, and around $700 of other work. On a bench, on a calm day, yes.
And I have several bench rest friends that that have groups way tighter than that.
When I load for accurracy, I trickle every load, weigh every case and every bullet, prepare the cases with an array of tools to ensure concentric and repeatable results.
Of course it's possible, that and much better with the right gun and skills.
I really don't care if you respond or not, the topic is how and what to kill a buffalo with, and the general consensus is accurracy of shot placement, and in that department with the load I asked about, there is no doubt. Your comments have nothing to do with the purpose or topic of the thread.

[Bullshop]

Bruce
You are right about the penned animals. My neighbor never shot more than 50 yards and hardly ever that far.
The woods bison you are talking about are a much larger animal than the plains bison down here in the world.
My neighbor imported some of the woods bison from Canada through improper channels. He just did a trade with a fella from White Horse. His plan was to cross them with his herd of plains bison to get bigger animals. It was a good plan until Canadian authorities caught up with him.
He chose to cooperate with them and they chose to prosecute the man that shipped them from Canada.
They ended up coming to his farm and taking anything that resembled a wood bison.

Griz44man
As a member of the CBA I get their publication called " The Fouling Shot" in the mail. I think its a quarterly publication free to members.
About half of this publication consists of match results from all around the country. There are several class of firearms from unlimited BR to light sporter. The best shooters in these matches shooting the unlimited class or possibly heavy varmint class may at times shoot .55 MOA at 150 yards but even they would be hard pressed to guarantee that level of accuracy.
If I then base my belief on the average results of the matches published in The Fouling Shot then I would have to believe that you and the friends you mentioned would be in something like the top 1% of all the shooters participating in these cast boolit matches.
So going by this do you see why it is difficult for me to accept your claim as absolute truth?
Still not fighting here but just presenting some facts that I have available to base my opinion on.
BTW I did also contribute to the theme of the thread in my second post.
Again I will reiterate that I am not trying to start a fight. I am speaking as a friend having a friendly conversation and as a friend would not be shy to rib a little if I thought there was a bit of exaggeration going on. As I said earlier I would dearly love to see it as it would be enlightening to me and change my understanding of what is or is not possible.
My understanding of what is may have no bearing on reality it is just the way I evaluate things with the factual input I have had available to this point so keep up the good shooting but share the information that got you there.

[45 2.1]

There is an opinion on this site that those here are at the top of the cast bullet game......... Published match results only represent those who participated in them, not the folks who do things for their own satisfaction to see what really can be done..... and they don't care if anybody else believes what they do.

If you have doubts, look at the CBA records:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/nationalrecord/natrecord.pdf

that are shot under match conditions..... way under what Griz said. Now just what makes them so special...Ehhhhhh!

[M-Tecs]

My Rem has been accurized, bolt face squared, lapped, and around $700 of other work. On a bench, on a calm day, yes.
And I have several bench rest friends that that have groups way tighter than that.
When I load for accurracy, I trickle every load, weigh every case and every bullet, prepare the cases with an array of tools to ensure concentric and repeatable results.
Of course it's possible, that and much better with the right gun and skills.

Just to be clear you are stating the you can hold .55 MOA with cast bullets and your bench rest friends have groups that are way tighter than that with cast bullets?

[frank505]

i KILLED one heifer at 150 yards with a 75 grain bullet from a 223. One client killed a mature bull with a 30/06 and 180 Nosler partitions. The bull was grazing along, guy shoots, THE BULL NEVER LIFTED HIS HEAD, HE KEPT GRAZING. That first hit was bit high bit in the lungs. Wish you could have seen his face............I told him you didnt bring enouigh gun. The next two were lung hits also. One of the Noslers made across to the other side of the rib cage where it stuck between ribs. The 405 WCF was one of the best killers, most times on a quartering away shot the bullet would exit.(cast of course) Lots of handgun kills, we specified 40 and up, starting with the 41 Mag. Oaks and I mostly just packed 500 Linebaughs unless we were hunting bulls. Then I packed my 505 Gibbs or 416 Taylor. Even heifers can take some hits if the first shot is not placed well.
Slaughter animals usually get shot with 45 Colt and 310 keith from the side, although lately Oaks has been using a 45 New vaquero and some fairly light loads as its all head shots in the trailer.
Good son killed one with a 45 old Vaquero 3 5/8's and the 270SAA, 18,5 2400. She was facing him at 30 yards, punched right through the heart. She got wobbly imediately, fell through the fence and died. Love high tensile wire fence. Took 5 minutes to put the wires back on new insulators

[KCSO]

Have killed Buff with 45-70 and 30-40 Krag and both will work IF you can put the bullet in the right spot. You need more penetration with this big an animal but you don't need a cannon. In 30-40 I used a 220 grain fp bullet running 2000 fps and in the 45-70 a 405 at 1200 will do the job. A 50 Caliber round ball with 70 grains of FFG will shot through both lungs and leae a big hole on the exit. KNow your anatomy and put the bullet in the heart or behind the ear and you will have no problems. The local butcher uses a 22 to put them down in the locer plant. If you are cool enought to wait for the shot and good enough to put it where it should go the 308 will work, if not try the 416.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, I know it can be done, but if I was going with a .308, it would be with a Nosler Partition or another bullet of equal integrity and NOT a cast bullet. Things can and do go wrong and that is something you or the critter don't need.

As has already been said many times, SHOT PLACEMENT!

Put down one of the last 2 buffalo from a departed friends herd, while his son took on the other with the .44 that Lennie had used repeatedly for the critters at butcher time.

One down with a 45/70 to the head, and the other still standing after about 4 shots to some where ????? in the head when another friend took control of the .44 from the son and finished off the critter after it had run down over the hill.

It was clearly shot placement as at the range I/we shot (15 - 20yds), the 45/70 was not really needed although it sure did the job in quick fashion.

However, it was no faster then the first shot would have been with the .44, IF that first shot and the next and the next and the next had been properly placed.

Use a reasonable caliber AND bullet and in this Ol'Coot's opinion, a 30cal cast is a few steps below the first rung of the ladder.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[waksupi]

Well, I know it can be done, but if I was going with a .308, it would be with a Nosler Partition or another bullet of equal integrity and NOT a cast bullet. Things can and do go wrong and that is something you or the critter don't need.

As has already been said many times, SHOT PLACEMENT!

Put down one of the last 2 buffalo from a departed friends herd, while his son took on the other with the .44 that Lennie had used repeatedly for the critters at butcher time.

One down with a 45/70 to the head, and the other still standing after about 4 shots to some where ????? in the head when another friend took control of the .44 from the son and finished off the critter after it had run down over the hill.

It was clearly shot placement as at the range I/we shot (15 - 20yds), the 45/70 was not really needed although it sure did the job in quick fashion.

However, it was no faster then the first shot would have been with the .44, IF that first shot and the next and the next and the next had been properly placed.

Use a reasonable caliber AND bullet and in this Ol'Coot's opinion, a 30cal cast is a few steps below the first rung of the ladder.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I am just opposite of that view. I would trust a cast boolit over any jacketed bullet.

[Marlin Junky]

There is an opinion on this site that those here are at the top of the cast bullet game......... Published match results only represent those who participated in them, not the folks who do things for their own satisfaction to see what really can be done..... and they don't care if anybody else believes what they do.

If you have doubts, look at the CBA records:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/nationalrecord/natrecord.pdf

that are shot under match conditions..... way under what Griz said. Now just what makes them so special...Ehhhhhh!

Bob,

Are the gun spec's available for those corresponding target results?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

There sure are a lot of OPINIONS from people who have never done it, who have shot deer, who kill pen-raised animals, etc etc etc etc.

For my part, we hunted WOOD BISON for years in the Northwest Territories, and I learned a few things on the subject of killing big bison, in the course of taking a dozen or so of the beasts.

How big? The largest bison I killed was a bull of about twelve years. It yielded 1700 pounds of MEAT cut-and-wrapped in the freezer. 1700 pounds! Live weight.... maybe 3000 pounds. His hide spanned our 12-wide "company house" from up-one-wall to up-the-other=wall.Now, tell me about your damned deer rifles....

I want my animals DOWN and DEAD immediately, without waiting for some unknown amount of time for the verdict. Our bison lived in HEAVY BUSH, with no fences for many thousands of square miles of room for a wounded animal to vanish.

Our early experiences with shooting bison with "deer rifles" quickly disabused me of that concept. The .30-06/7mm Magnum rifles, even with heavy-for-caliber Partitions and the like, generally ended-up killing them....eventually. In disgust, I obtained a .404 Jeffrey for the job, and the difference is as night from day. I once watched a friend shoot a bull squarely in the forehead at close range with .30-06 220 factory loads... THREE TIMES. A final round from the side of his head ended the affair. The three forehead hits failed to penetrate the skull, or to put the animal down.

You people are talking about using North-American deer rifles on animals that can rival AFRICAN big game in size. Show at least a LITTLE respect for the creatures.

Personally, bison rifles would start with a heavy-bullet .338 load. The outfitter who ran Wood Bison hunts for visiting hunters out of Fort Smith, NWT, was a native gent named Frank Laviolette. By the time I met him, he DEMANDED that his sport hunters brought at least a .375 H&H.... do you suppose that just maybe he knew a thing or two?

Damn Bruce... that's quite a story.

How do you suppose a paper patched .35 (at least 250 grains) out of a Whelen or .350RM would fare, given the bison is within reasonable range?

MJ

[45 2.1]

Are the gun spec's available for those corresponding target results? MJ

The CBA should have those someplace in their records. You will probably find that everything except Production firearms are custom made and relatively expensive. Contact the CBA about that though.

[BruceB]

How do you suppose a paper patched .35 (at least 250 grains) out of a Whelen or .350RM would fare, given the bison is within reasonable range?

MJ

With a couple of caveats, the Whelen could do alright.

First, I'd want the HEAVIEST bullet I could find, even if it meant buying a new mould of 300 grains or so.

Second, that bullet should EXPAND. With paper-patching, a pure-lead bullet is very workable and should do maximum damage without breaking up. I do believe that for MY use, I'd prefer one of my cast softpoints, to ensure a heavy un-deformed shank would remain to maintain penetrating ability.

I had a very bitter experience with non-expanding bullets on bison. In the first bison season after getting the .404, the only ammo I could find was factory-loaded Kynoch SOLIDS...400-grain bullets with HEAVY steel jackets, intended for the largest African game.... elephant, rhino, Cape buffalo. Velocity was 2150 fps. Since this was also the only brass available to me at the time, it pushed me into the world of Berdan primers, too....but that's another story.

We had a regulation forbidding non-expanding bullets, but a discussion with the Game department determined that my African loads would not create any legal difficulty; the wardens were concerned with military FMJ stuff being mis-used.

So...my wife and I came on a herd of bison feeding out from a big stand of timber into open ground, and WE were out in the open. The bison were jumpy from intensive sport hunting, and they were a good 400 yards away. We left our truck and CRAWLED on our bellies for about 250 yards through short grass and a few inches of snow, until we were only 200 yards or less from the herd of maybe 250 animals. They were getting suspicious, so I decided to shoot from (estimated) 200 yards.

A medium-sized cow was on the outskirts of the herd with nothing beyond her, meaning no problems with pass-through hits.

I fired SEVEN of those solids into her chest area, She showed zero reaction to any of the hits.... I could HEAR the bullets hit, and as time went on I could SEE (from 200 yards) the blood running from the fur under the heart/lung area. I then decided to move up closer, in spite of advice received before the hunt. Bad move.

She spooked and ran into the heavy bush, taking a bunch of other animals with her.

We followed-up until it got dark, maybe an hour or so. Tracking was easy in the light snow cover, but we never caught up and ended-up losing her in the heavy bush (visibility as low as ten yards, and getting dark)..

I am morally CERTAIN that she died in fairly-short order, but that doesn't make me feel any better. To this day, she is the ONLY wounded animal I've ever failed to recover, and I've put bullets into a LOT of animals.

By way of comparison, I shot that huge bull from 200 yards with the same rifle, but with Barnes Original softpoint bullets. The first round hit his heart from broadside, and the second hit at the last rib angling forward as he wheeled away from me. That bullet dropped him right THERE, and exited through the far shoulder.... maybe four feet or so of penetration. He was still trying to get up when I got to him, and needed a coup-de-grace headshot to finish the story.

From that point onward, no bison required more than a single .404 round to stop them, with a couple also requiring finishers.

My last Wood Bison hunt in the NWT was in'96, by which time it had devolved into a draw system for a limited number of tags (fifteen! I was lucky!).

The rifle for that hunt was my .416 Rigby with 400-grain X-bullets. I was far from the only "local nut case" with a heavy rifle. Many hunters of my acquaintance bought bigger calibers for bison; one good friend had his BRNO ZKK602 in .458 re-chambered to .450 Ackley. The rifle then drove a 500-grain bullet at 2400fps, which is the same speed my .404 delivers with 400 grains.

Again, these bison had to be HUNTED, in heavy bush mixed with patches of open grassland. They were alert and needed normal hunting tactics. It was NOT a case of walking up within a few yards and dropping a semi-tame animal.

[btroj]

Excellent point Bruce- big difference between hunting them and just shooting them.

I would be fine with a 375 H&H but only because I can shoot one well. I think failures with the big guns is often because people are afraid of them, don't practice enough with them, and think a hit anywhere is gonna be fatal.

[Griz44mag]

M-tech,
I did not mean to mislead you on my benchrest friends, I don't know what projectiles they shoot in their benchrest rifles at the matches. I do know most of them shoot 30BR rifles. I do know I see targets the size of a piece of notebook paper with 50 X markers that are probably a font size 14 on them, and every X has a bullet hole in it.
I do not shoot competition benchrest. I do shoot competition pistol on occasion.
However, this thread was SUPPOSED to be about the appropriate round for hunting a really big American Bison cow.
Consensus seems to be that shot placement is #1 reason for success. I have that covered. I shoot 100-200 yard load workups almost every week. I stay polished with my rifle(s) and have absolute confidence in my ability to place a shot EXACTLY where I want it, and enough experience to hold the shot back if I don't have the perfect condition to make reason #1 a sure bet. The question is centered around the rifle and projectile that will best serve the purpose. Heavy seems to be the choice of those who have been there and done it. Since I have not hunted buffalo, I asked here to get some insight from those who have. What I got was advice from a lot of folks who THINK they know what should be used, but have not done it themselves. There are a few here that have hunted buffalo, and their advice is exactly what I was seeking in the first place. I have listened, and have procured a 45-70 CVA APEX rifle, that should arrive in a week or so. I will scope it accordingly, secure the appropriate reloading supplies and start working up loads and practicing until I reach the level of proficiency with it that will be required to hunt bison ethically and safely. For those who only want to question my ability to put a hole in a piece of paper and not add anything relevant to my quest for information, well, it matters not that you have added nothing to the thread. I will follow up this whole thread sometime in late December or early January, hopefully with a few pictures and a freezer full of meat to show off.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the story Bruce...

I'll probably never get a chance to hunt Wood or Mountain Bison, but the Plains variety is on the menu.

MJ

[gandydancer]

The ranch guide will show you where to place your shot on the Buff. got one in 96 at triple U ranch in so Dakota 105 yards truck fender rest. C.sharps 40/65 286 grain lead Boolit with black powder 2F. went down where he stood. while there watched the ranch owner shoot 21 Buffalo with a Ruger single action 22 mag all one shot kills.as they came up the cage ramp and stopped at the top. he stood on top of cage and shot them down through the neck instant kills. GD

[NVScouter]

Griz I've never shot bison but I've put down my share of cows. There is no similarity and I have no idea why these "facts" are coming up from others. Also the negativity is wearing on the thread.

I just think more bullet mass is needed for that "almost" perfect shot placement to hedge your bets on this awesome hunt.

[Bullshop]

Not saying a 45/70 BP or BP type load wont do the job because anyone that knows anything of American history knows better. Just going to mention this to show how important shot placement is regardless of caliber.
My neighbor had a hunter come in to shoot a bison. As always he had the hunter sight in his rifle before the hunt. I was there for the sight in. The rifle was a Sharps 45/70 using the Lyman 457125 boolit loaded with black powder.
I looked at one of his cartridges and asked about the alloy because the boolit seemed a bit hard. He said they were made from wheel weights. I suggested they might work a little better if they were softer. He assured me that he was confident in the load and his proficiency with it.
Later I was told that he took a broad side head shot but I don't recall the distance but knowing my neighbor never let anyone shoot more than about 50 yards.
At the shot the cow bolted and mingled with the heard of about 150 animals. The heard moved along and they could not single out the shot cow.
The next day after the herd had settled they went out to look again and found the cow grazing with the heard. They identified her as the one with a spot of blood on each side or her head. The shot must have penciled through at a point that missed anything important.
I got to shoot a big bull bison once with a Marlin 45/70. This animal was hit by a car and hurt enough that he meandered off the road about 100 yards and laid down. Once down he stiffened up and couldn't get up. I was on the road kill list and it was right by my house ( by Ak. standards) so fish and game called me to go get it. I was only a few steps away and shot from the front just above between the eyes. That was it lights out right now. The load was with smokeless powder but a 500gn paper patch boolit at 1550 fps mv.
I shot a grizz that another neighbor had wounded with this same load and got the same results. That shot went under the chin and ended up under the hide on the rump expanded to the size of a nickel for about half its length.
Anyway good luck on that hunt!

[mstarling]

Must admit that I am much more a big bore guy and prefer something that will kill quickly and with authority. Last buffalo I took was with the same rifle I had used that year to take a Cape Buffalo in Tanzania ... a .416 Rigby with 350 gr Barnes Xs at 2700 fps. One shot drop event with the buffalo.

Members of the herd did gather around the dead one and it took a while for them to give up their guard.

If using a smaller rifle I would go with no less that a 30 cal 200 gr Nosler Partition as penetration is an issue on big animals. With a smaller rifle I'd want a friend around to help just in case.

[1Shirt]

Having watched this thread for awhile, will now add my 2 cents. I would only use a 308 with a premium jacketed bullet, not that the proper cast of around 180-200 of appropriate hardness would not work and work well. However, given my druthers, if I were to use cast on buff, would not want less than a 35 cal, 250 or better with wide flat nose doing at least 2000fps. Better, I would want a 375H&H with a 270-300gr. wide flat nose doing at least 1800. Best for me would be a 45-70, with either one of the old 360 Gould HP doing 15-1600, or a 405 gr big flat nose like a Ranch Dog doing 16-1700. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!

[Griz44mag]

1shirt,
Have you ever used any of these recommended loads on a large bodied animal, and what was that animal?
I have hunted for over 50 years, from the time I was in grade school, and this will be my first animal of this size. Texas deer just don't get very big.
I am curious how they performed for you.
I too, put down several cows in my younger days with nothing but a 22 at point blank range.
I have spent the last few days doing a lot of digging into the ballistics and specifics of the cartridge and the many variations of speeds and bullet weights.
I intend to start testing this summer with a 405gr lead flat nose at 1500-1800 fps, which with 2495 powder should run around 18-22k psi. That is well withing the design limits of the Apex. Lead will be alloyed to 15BHN to start with, and moved downward if the expansion is not acceptable. According to the charts and material, this should stay within the material tolerances and not deform under acceleration, keeping the flight path consistent. Hopefully it will deform upon rapid de-acceleration!
Range of the shot will be a max 100 yards. Unless this rifle is just totally awful on repeatable accuracy, that should be no issue.
I should be receiving the dies, brass, trimmer, mold and rifle in the next 2 weeks.
Needless to say, I am excited and looking forward to doing a complete workup with a caliber I have never owned before.
I ordered a dozen of the collapsible 5 gallon water bags to test on.

[Griz44mag]

If you have doubts, look at the CBA records:
Holy buffalo cow batman.
I just downloaded the scorecards posted here.
These guys are holding tighter groups with a HANDGUN at 100 yards than I am holding with what I considered a very accurate rifle.
I guess I just thought I was good, cause these guys are shooting under .2 MOA with their heavy barrel rifles - with cast bullets.
Anyway, back to the buffs (as Bruce puts it). Maybe Bruce can finish getting me up to speed on the jargon before I go hunt them. :razz:

[crabo]

Excellent point Bruce- big difference between hunting them and just shooting them.



I shot a buffalo at about 35 yards through the ear with a 460420 at 1500 fps, right where the rancher told me to shoot. He said it was a perfect shot. However even though the bull dropped immediately, he still tried to get back up.

The rancher ran over, shot him in the ear again with a 30-06 and had his son drop the bucket on the front end loader on him to claim him before the herd could gather round.

This rancher finds it easier to kill them this way, than to run them through a chute and get them all excited. I would like to do a hunt sometime, but this buffalo ate great. I couldn't pass up a chance to shoot a buffalo with a 45/70 guide gun and one of my boolits.

[quilbilly]

LOL, --- That's a story I think I would enjoy hearing.....
Another word to the wise. Don't get upwind of a herd of buffalo when you have a 32 gal trash can full of apple pulp from a local cider maker in back of your truck. At least make sure you have enough gas in the truck to tire them out.

[Rattus58]

As this is a ranch hunt I would try and get to within less than 100 yards for my first shot and be ready for a follow up shot. You wont have to worry about loosing a wounded animal but you want to be as humane as possible. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but I have killed water buffalo with a 45-70 double rifle.Getting close shouldn't be a problem... a friend of mine went on a buffalo hunt in wyoming or somewhere and the rancher drove him up to one while he was sitting in the bucket of a payloader... :grin:

[TXGunNut]

Never had the opportunity to shoot a buff, probably never will......but if I do it will be with my 45-90 Sharps or possibly my Guide Gun in 45-70. I'd approach it like I do most other CB projects, it's all about the history. Shooting a buffalo with a modern cartridge just doesn't seem right. For me it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity and I want to do it right.
JMHO, of course.

[gandydancer]

That's how I felt when I got mine.Blackpowder all the way. MY buddy got his with a 340 weatherby Ruger # 1 (re-barreled) Just did not smell the same. lol and as close as we could get with the Bronco was a little over 100 yards. My buddy got his first. the buff dropped where he stood. I walked up to it with the ranch owner and in his right hand he had a large curved green mt knife. the bison was on his left side with his back to us.the ranch owner tapped it in the right eye. nothing. and then he called to bring the flatbed truck for loading. it was then I ask him what he would have done had the animal blinked? He looked at me with a small smile on his face. and said run like hell for the Bronco. I got mine the next day and stayed by the truck until he said all clear.PS the Bronco we used was all beat to **** and rolled over a few times by the Buffalo before we got there. it was a great time. I would like to do it again. at that time it was a $1000. for the hunt. now its $2400. GD



Never had the opportunity to shoot a buff, probably never will......but if I do it will be with my 45-90 Sharps or possibly my Guide Gun in 45-70. I'd approach it like I do most other CB projects, it's all about the history. Shooting a buffalo with a modern cartridge just doesn't seem right. For me it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity and I want to do it right.
JMHO, of course.

[sharpsguy]

Grizz, check your pm and/or pm me your phone number. We need to talk.

[groot nadine]

If given the chance to hunt buffalo, I'd prefer to go old school. an old Marlin/Winchester lever action like the 1895 or 1886 in a big case like a 45/70-45/90, or beg or borrow a big sharps. crossed sticks... feel like the ancestors...

[Adam10mm]

What about the two shot method I see on the hunting shows for large African game? I hear the PH instruct the shooter to take a shoulder shot to anchor the animal, then rush in and follow up with a head or heart shot. Seems to work fine for them.

[MT Chambers]

The CBA record for 5 shot group was .141" a couple of years ago, the plain base breech seated record is only a hair larger, none of this constitutes "all day long". Back to Buffs., the one I shot with the 50/90 Sharps did not go down quickly from a lung shot, I proved to myself that the bullet should have been pure lead and now that's all I use in the .50 and it's about as deadly on moose and other big stuff as anything out there. Match alloy to velocity!!

[Rattus58]

There sure are a lot of OPINIONS from people who have never done it, who have shot deer, who kill pen-raised animals, etc etc etc etc.

For my part, we hunted WOOD BISON for years in the Northwest Territories, and I learned a few things on the subject of killing big bison, in the course of taking a dozen or so of the beasts.

How big? The largest bison I killed was a bull of about twelve years. It yielded 1700 pounds of MEAT cut-and-wrapped in the freezer. 1700 pounds! Live weight.... maybe 3000 pounds. His hide spanned our 12-wide "company house" from up-one-wall to up-the-other=wall.Now, tell me about your damned deer rifles....

I want my animals DOWN and DEAD immediately, without waiting for some unknown amount of time for the verdict. Our bison lived in HEAVY BUSH, with no fences for many thousands of square miles of room for a wounded animal to vanish.

Our early experiences with shooting bison with "deer rifles" quickly disabused me of that concept. The .30-06/7mm Magnum rifles, even with heavy-for-caliber Partitions and the like, generally ended-up killing them....eventually. In disgust, I obtained a .404 Jeffrey for the job, and the difference is as night from day. I once watched a friend shoot a bull squarely in the forehead at close range with .30-06 220 factory loads... THREE TIMES. A final round from the side of his head ended the affair. The three forehead hits failed to penetrate the skull, or to put the animal down.

You people are talking about using North-American deer rifles on animals that can rival AFRICAN big game in size. Show at least a LITTLE respect for the creatures.

Personally, bison rifles would start with a heavy-bullet .338 load. The outfitter who ran Wood Bison hunts for visiting hunters out of Fort Smith, NWT, was a native gent named Frank Laviolette. By the time I met him, he DEMANDED that his sport hunters brought at least a .375 H&H.... do you suppose that just maybe he knew a thing or two?

A head shot on a pig even is, as I have personally discovered, not assured... I know that they put cattle down with 22's, but that is a practiced shot that even I don't have the knowledge of, though I've seen it done. That is an execution, here we're talking about hunting. As a general rule, it is my opinion that it is foolishness to believe that you can't anchor any animal in north america with a .308 it's only going to be how far am I when I shoot it.

I shoot a .451 with 470 grain to 520 bullets behind at the most 90 grains of 3F in my muzzleloader.I'm confident with that gun and bullet. A shooter with a .308 should also be, in my opinion, confident in his shot/gun. However, here is my argument for 40 calibres or larger. One is wound channel and bullet stability, which in my opinion again, is enhanced with the likes of the .451/45/50 types with 70 grains or more of powder.

I've no doubts that a 30-30 could take a bison with a sane shot, as goes for the .308 but for some reason, a large diameter bullet has great penetration, large wound channel, bullet stability, and more importantly, momentum which will carry the job with the aforementioned attributes once the animal is hit.

While I have ZERO experience with the likes of .338/.375/and african .40's, I think that their parentage/heritage/history/all speak for themselves on dangerous game, and I'm not sure I'm ready to classify the bison as dangerous game till you miss vital in the moment. I'm offering opinions here, if you don't have one, an inexpensive H&R/NEF/ROSSI/CVA in 45-70 will solve your problems and give you some historic caliber opportunity to relive the experiences.

I'm confident in the abilities of good shooters to take any game. I'm also confident in caliber. A good shooter with enough caliber.. what more could you ask for.. :grin:

[Adam10mm]

I know that they put cattle down with 22's, but that is a practiced shot that even I don't have the knowledge of, though I've seen it done.
A headshot with a .22 rimfire isn't to kill, it's to stun the animal so it won't kick when you move in to open the neck to bleed it. Headshot like that stuns the nervous system and it's said they are so short circuited that they don't feel the bleeder knife making the bleeder cut on the neck. The headshot is to stun them and the bleeding out kills them. I know some custom butchers that prefer a baseball bat on the skull to stun and some other just go in and make the bleeder cut without stunning them. Different methods for different people.

When I slaughter an animal that size, I don't take a frontal with a .22. If I have to use a .22, I'll stand by the shoulder and shoot crossways from their ear to their offside eye socket when their head is down to take a bite of hay (if it passes through, it enters the ground). Frontal shots on livestock I prefer to use my 10mm 1911.

But yes, slaughtering is a completely different world than hunting.

[Rattus58]

A headshot with a .22 rimfire isn't to kill, it's to stun the animal so it won't kick when you move in to open the neck to bleed it. Headshot like that stuns the nervous system and it's said they are so short circuited that they don't feel the bleeder knife making the bleeder cut on the neck. The headshot is to stun them and the bleeding out kills them. I know some custom butchers that prefer a baseball bat on the skull to stun and some other just go in and make the bleeder cut without stunning them. Different methods for different people.

When I slaughter an animal that size, I don't take a frontal with a .22. If I have to use a .22, I'll stand by the shoulder and shoot crossways from their ear to their offside eye socket when their head is down to take a bite of hay (if it passes through, it enters the ground). Frontal shots on livestock I prefer to use my 10mm 1911.

But yes, slaughtering is a completely different world than hunting.I just knew there was somethin inherently better with a .40.. :grin:

[45 2.1]

A headshot with a .22 rimfire isn't to kill, it's to stun the animal so it won't kick when you move in to open the neck to bleed it. Headshot like that stuns the nervous system and it's said they are so short circuited that they don't feel the bleeder knife making the bleeder cut on the neck. The headshot is to stun them and the bleeding out kills them.

I've watched that practice and did it myself once my great uncle and grandfather (the locals butchers for the farmers around home) explained what to do and where to place the 22. You evidently have never seen it done correctly.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm! Guess those critters I've seen "killed" with a .22, weren't. Killed that is. ?????

I have however seen sheep repeatedly hit with a "bolt gun" which were not killed. Most were, but a few were not.

The second time I was going to be involved with the putting down of a sizable number of these old critters, I took the RUGER M II along on the ride to work that morning, just in case.

The person responsible for the killing of these sheep was a professional butcher of long experience from a university meat lab and most of the kills were quick and clean.

However, the last time I was involved, at least one of the critters was not killed even after repeated hits with the bolt gun. When it was clear the normal system was not working, I made the trip to an from the pick up, returning with the RUGER.

A .22LR to the same general location as the repeated hits with the bolt gun did no more then the bolt gun had. The critter just remained in a stunned condition, while one additional .22LR behind the ear quickly finished the process.

Do I think that the critters put down in long ago butchering situations, hogs and beef were killed with the .22 to the center of the head? Yep, without question, they were dead and not stunned.

However, about the time you think you know all there is to know about what you think you know, along will comes a critter that for what ever reason is only stunned by a normally killing hit, and some other measure needs to be employed to complete the process.

When you have been there and done/seen that, it usually quite easy to see if the critter is stunned or dead.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Whiterabbit]

For buffalo and muzzleloaders, a .62 is good medicine. Smaller bore sizes sometimes take more than one shot. I used a .358 win, with a 290 gr. boolit. Placed right, it does the job. I personally wouldn't use anything less, although I do know one rancher that on his ranch shoots a small bore. A shot behind the ear drops them right there.
A friend of mine runs hunts on a ranch down by Dillon. He sees a lot of various chamberings used. Many of the large African calibers have had pretty sad performance. His go-to round is a .50-90 for quick kills.

I'd love more on this. .62 cal? Do you really feel as though 58 cal is "not enough"? Round ball going 1500 fps? Or that it is not enough to be classed out of the "grey area"? (assume .62 was chosen so there were no questions as to grey area vs black and white).

Also love to know why the African cartridges worked poorly. I'm slowly collecting all the parts to put together a .510 Wells Express and to hear that it might result in poor performance in cxp3 (particularly considering african cartridges are often loaded with strongly expanding copper bullets or enormous meplat solid brass bullets) really interests me.

Any more detail you'd like to share? I'd like to listen!

[Adam10mm]

I've watched that practice and did it myself once my great uncle and grandfather (the locals butchers for the farmers around home) explained what to do and where to place the 22. You evidently have never seen it done correctly.
I've talked with local butchers as well. They want the animal stunned and alive while they bleed out so the heart does the work along with gravity. Sure a bunch of them are killed by the headshot but that's not the primary reason for it, according to them.

The pig I did last fall. Entrance wound just on the right of the blood line between the eyes. 10mm 180gr XTP @ 1300fps muzzle about 2 inches away. This wasn't to stun it, this was to kill it. By the time I holstered and got the knife out, it stopped kicking.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/DSCN0121.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/freakshow10mm/media/DSCN0121.jpg.html)

Bleeder cut.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/DSCN0120.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/freakshow10mm/media/DSCN0120.jpg.html)

Throat side view showing damage from gunshot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/DSCN0148.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/freakshow10mm/media/DSCN0148.jpg.html)

[Adam10mm]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm! Guess those critters I've seen "killed" with a .22, weren't. Killed that is. ?????

I have however seen sheep repeatedly hit with a "bolt gun" which were not killed. Most were, but a few were not.

The second time I was going to be involved with the putting down of a sizable number of these old critters, I took the RUGER M II along on the ride to work that morning, just in case.

The person responsible for the killing of these sheep was a professional butcher of long experience from a university meat lab and most of the kills were quick and clean.

However, the last time I was involved, at least one of the critters was not killed even after repeated hits with the bolt gun. When it was clear the normal system was not working, I made the trip to an from the pick up, returning with the RUGER.

A .22LR to the same general location as the repeated hits with the bolt gun did no more then the bolt gun had. The critter just remained in a stunned condition, while one additional .22LR behind the ear quickly finished the process.

Do I think that the critters put down in long ago butchering situations, hogs and beef were killed with the .22 to the center of the head? Yep, without question, they were dead and not stunned.

However, about the time you think you know all there is to know about what you think you know, along will comes a critter that for what ever reason is only stunned by a normally killing hit, and some other measure needs to be employed to complete the process.

When you have been there and done/seen that, it usually quite easy to see if the critter is stunned or dead.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I think you're misunderstanding the point they were making. The intent is different from the result. The intent is to stun them, not kill them, but a lot of them are killed by the gunshot. I don't think they realize how well the .22 is at killing, so they think it just stuns them. Same guys that think .45 ACP hardball will throw a person 10ft back.

The livestock I slaughtered with the crossways gunshots were done at the direction of the ranchers that were letting me help them, but I had to do it their way. This year, after seeing me slaughter with my 10mm pistol, they are letting me use that and take the frontal shot.

When I slaughter animals, I shoot them in the head to kill them, not stun them. I know it kills them and that's why I do it. I'm not there to mess around, I'm there to kill it ASAP so I can start butchering.

[swheeler]

I took a ranch raised bison a few years back with a cast bullet, 1 shot DRT. It was a 3 year old cow approx 1100 pounds, 8mm with 250 gr cast going 1900 fps, shot from about 50 yds. tasted just fine.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Whiterabbit,

This is just an Ol'Coot's opinion, but I'd say that some of the big calibers such as those use for large African game or a Stopping rounds, possibly give the questionable results you refer to due to bullet profile. Round Nose.

They of course do provide some shock, but much of their design, profile and intent is to provide deep and strieght line penertration.

But on the other hand, and there apparently is a question about Veral Smith of LBT coming up with the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullet profile idea, heavy bullets of good dia. with a WFN provide a wound channel all out of expectation for a bullet giving in many cases, limited or no expansion.

Not only do these bullets, if of reasonable caliber/weight - bigger/heavier is better - provide VERY deep and long wound channels, but the wound channel is of very good size without excessive meat distruction.

That WFN profile does provide the needed resistance to create a wound channel and not just penertrate as the typical round nose solids do from the heavy rifles many times used in Africa.

I think I mentioned earlier that I put down one of the last two buffalo from a friends herd after Lennie died. A "barn Yard" put down with one shot from the 45/70 placed behind the ear.

However, the second critter was shot repeatedly by the friend's son, with the same caliber/rifle Lennie always used with ZERO problems. A .44 Ruger rifle. Another friend finally took the rifle from the son and finished the job.

SHOT Placement, plain and simple.

The range for both shots was CLOSE and the son had a clear shot for a behind the ear hit just as I did, but --------------- one critter was on the ground dead and the other took at least 3 more shots before it was finished.

Likely other thoughts and opinions out there, but I am just so impressed with the results on game up to elk size with a .460dia WFN cast bullet of 465gr., fired at 1650fps, that I'd welcome the oppertunity of take on any critter found in North America with that old 45/70 cartridge.

If there would be a failure, it would not be due to the cartridge or bullet, but my problem.

Now, I am pretty much a behind the shoulder point of aim shooter if given that shot, but with a critter the size of the buffalo it would depend on the situation. If there was possible involvement with other herd animals, I might take a shoulder shot while if that was not an issue the critter will be dead with a behind the shoulder hit and just may not know it for a hundred yards of so.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Smoke4320]

for 1700 Lb Animals .. bigger than 30 cal is better, much better, Heavy Flat Nose is better, deep penetration better , and shot placement is key..
I'm thinking my 458 socom with a 500 Grn Flat Nose would be perfect for sub 200 yd shot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

YES Smoke 4320!

CDOC

[NVScouter]

I just bought a 45-70'handi rifle since my other 45-70 is at the manufacturer. I loaded some 450g RNFP over a healthy dose of R7. Shot 2"@100y and 10" into a hard clay berm that eats most other projectiles. This is what I found next to a 44mag brass.

Not bad for $150 total investment.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/3653F41A-9ECA-455E-9193-BA80ACD49B82-3540-0000049136D1FB67.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

you know, the suggestions of the african cartridges (though in our town someone shot a deer with a 358 cal 200 gr RN that seemed to do the job!) implies that they could be "fixed" by simply loading them down a bit for buffalo.

Or just shoot them in the shoulder instead to test bone crushing power?

Either way, sounds like a soft round ball 58 cal in diameter moving a bit over 1500 fps is also good to go to put down a buffalo. I guess I need to get on that before HSUS gets congress to outlaw leaded hunting altogether.

[johnson1942]

griz44mag: griz i have a friend who has shot around 330 buffalo for a elders funeral over the years. he is a member of the oglala sioux lakota tribe near here. he has only two guns he has used. a 38/55 lever winchester. and a winchester 257 roberts. ill give you the secret to down a buffalo with one shot as his are mainly all one shot kills, no not the head. looking at a buffalo standing with its side faceing you look forthe withers as you would for the withers on a horse. it should be at about a 45 degree slant like a good running horse. mentally look for the very center of the withers and then mentally move the spot 6 inches toward the head. if you shoot the critter in that spot you wont have to worry if you have the right spot. you will clip the spine and it will drop like a rock. i met the other tribal member who has shot over 300 buffalo also and that is where he shoots them also. good luck on your hunt and if you ever want to book a deer hunt on a 100,000 acre ranch up here message me and ill give you the name to call. his drive way is 7 miles long and he is very competitive and treats his hunters like the very best do.

[nanuk]

I surely love the differing opinions.

BruceB's story shows the value of shooting, then let the animal lay down and stiffen/die

When I worked in an abattoir, we used 22 short or 22 long, to KILL the animal. swine, bovine, equine... all got one single one between the eye, entering slightly above, angling down slightly. this killed every time. the bleeding followed very quickly.

the Bison Rancher I work for baling often has me helping him. He uses a 303 with 180gr SP and shoots them in the face, aiming for the brain. He has moved up to a 30-06.... don't know why as he never had to shoot twice. All shots within 100yds, animals standing still, head down. His 180gr 303's were found usually in the lungs, or shoulder meat, after penetrating the head/neck area. We are talking about 24" penetration.

His bulls aren't as big as the Northern ones, although he has both breeds, usually topping out at 2500lbs or so.

even at that weight, they are only about 30" wide, maybe 36" at the shoulders... so a broadside shot is pretty much guaranteed to exit of a double lunger.

regarding what caliber to use, I'd say use the biggest you can shoot well. these animals ARE TOUGH, and can soak up a lot of poor shots, but one well placed one will kill them.

[Whiterabbit]

biggest you can shoot well? so a 58 caliber roundball moving at 1500 fps is better than a maxed out Ruger#1 level 45/70 load? I'm using hyperbole, but I'm still asking with some level of seriousness. I don't get to really hunt animals larger than 200 lb pigs out here, so I don't have experience, even tangentially.

[nanuk]

Biggest may be the wrong word

use the largest, most powerful you can handle well.... if a 45/70 Ruger load that scares the heck out of you so you flinch like crazy is what you use, I'd say it is more than you can handle well... and if a 58RB is easy for you to shoot, and will go through 4 feet of solid meat and bone, I'd say, Yes, you'd be better off with the 58RB.

There is lots of room for caliber/velocity movement on the scale.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Whiterabbit,

It is well proven that the 45/70 with a over 400gr - bigger is better - bullet in the 1500 - 1700fps range will provide much greater depth of wound channel then the same bullet at velocities above that point.

Check out info on the Beartooth bullet web site and that of Randy Garrett as per the 45/70 and it's effectiveness.

Also, expansion is a negative if deep wound channel are of greatest importance.

That is one reason the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullets, cast to be basicly non-expanding are so very effective.

Now only does the WFN provide a great wound channel, but due to the lack of expansion increasing the frontal area, they go way deep, most of the time exiting the critter.

I have a bullet from my first cast bullet elk, but was surprised to find it and it went a loooong ways through some real tough going before stopping just under the hide.

I shoot a RUGER #1s in 45/70 and my current and proven 465gr WFN at 1650fps is way better then my first hunting load of a 355gr WFN at 2300fps.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Rattus58]

biggest you can shoot well? so a 58 caliber roundball moving at 1500 fps is better than a maxed out Ruger#1 level 45/70 load? I'm using hyperbole, but I'm still asking with some level of seriousness. I don't get to really hunt animals larger than 200 lb pigs out here, so I don't have experience, even tangentially.I don't know if this was meant to be a roundball thread, but a round ball will punch through anything. No buffalo is going to stand up to a 58 from close range... gotta remember... roundball loses a third of its velocity and half its energy at 100 yards... but with a 58... who cares... :grin:

[nanuk]

I shoot a RUGER #1s in 45/70 and my current and proven 465gr WFN at 1650fps is way better then my first hunting load of a 355gr WFN at 2300fps.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot


Hey CDOC, what is your sight in for that load? and an expected trajectory?

is that a full power load? or something a Handi could handle? (Marlin Lever gun strength)

tnx

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Nanuk,

I have been sighted in about 4" high at a hundred, and the one time I checked it out at 200 I believe it was about 8" low this that 100yd setting.

I have a new Leupold CDS scope with the custom dial made for that bullet and load, so want to get it out and get it sighted in.

Wife recently had a brain tumor removed that was affecting her sight, so things are stalled here until she regains a bit more ability to be up and around and hopefully regains some more sight. About 2 1/2 weeks out from the surgery now, and she is getting stronger.

No, this is not a full power load. Although, my new Hornady book shows their jacketed 500gainer maxed out at 1800fps with some powders and 1600fps with other powders with the RUGER #1.

I'll so some other looking and get back if I find any other/better info. However, this is what I'd consider to be a rather mild load with the 465gr bullet.

Crusty Deary Ol'coot

[Whiterabbit]

Hodgdon says a jacketed (speer rfp) 400 grain bullet can go 1850-2000 fps at max in a lever action, 25-40KUP. Not too much of a stretch to figure a softer 450 gr slug going roundabouts 1600 or more in the same pressure zone.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Nanuk,

Checked out the Hodgdon web site and they didn't help much, other then they show loads a fair amount above mine using a lighter jacketed bullet.

On the Marlin info for a 400gr JFP, the heaviest they show, they give a load of 52gr H335 at 1798fps. For the RUGER #1 with the 400 gr JFP, they show 54gr of H335 at 1883fps.

My load of 47.5gr behind the 465gr cast is averaging about 1650fps.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[nanuk]

4" high at 100, 8" low at 200... That would cover pretty much all my moose hunting!

sometimes there may be shot across the lake, but that is about 300-350yds... I doubt very much I'd take that shot, at least not until I KNEW where I was hitting at that range.

I've got a 45/70 Handi, and that load doesn't sound like it would be too much for the gun... have to check on recoil though! one thing I'll say, I find the LeveRevolution rounds quite mild to shoot in the handi.

[Whiterabbit]

Limbsaver. cake to install, makes anything comfy to shoot. Except 3.5" 12 ga shells with 2 oz of shot. Nothing makes that comfy in a 5.5 lb handi rifle.

[Griz44mag]

Parts and pieces finally coming together.
45-70 Starline shows up, 4 weeks from time of order.
NOE mold (405 gr) 4 cavity. Al shipped this mold the same day I ordered it, and it shows up in my box 2 days later. Best service in the country as far as I am concerned.
Got the first 100 rounds of brass sized, trimmed and de-burred, ready to load.
Will do some casting this weekend, and finally do some loading next weekend.
By the end of the month, the Buffalo bullet thrower should be ready for range testing!
72895

[Whiterabbit]

Lovely.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Looks like a good WFN bullet!

CDOC

[TXGunNut]

Awesome! Which powders do you have available?

[Griz44mag]

Which powders do you have available?
It's interesting how a couple of years ago we would ask "What powder do you want to use?" to "Which powders do you have available?"
That was very nicely worded TXGunNut.
LOL - it's a sign of the times!
Exactly where are you TXGunNut? I'm in Round Rock, so you may be close enough for a visit.
Page 217 of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook highly recommends Varget for loads ranging 1591 to 1772 fps for this bullet.
For a cast bullet of 400gr they recommend 5744.
Since 5744 seems to be one shade more rare than unobtanium, I plan on using the Varget I have on the shelf now.
I had considered actually using black powder, and may still give it a whirl when I get into testing.
I sat down this afternoon and cast 15# of these bullets (approximately 250 bullets)
After inspection, I think I will be looking at around 200 that will meet the brass.
They averaged 399-401gr with the alloy I used. The alloy tested at 14-15 BHN in the ingot, so when they went in the pot, I added 2% 50/50 solder.
The bullets are 3 hours old now, and I tested a couple of them at 12 BHN, so over the next week, expect they will settle in close to 13-14.
I expect the pressures to run 17-21K, so they fit the Lee pressure curve model very nicely.
This is the spawn from today's casting session.
73013

[NVScouter]

IMR3031 and Reloader 7 are my go to 45-70s with R7 really coming into its own with 450g.

Did I miss the part where you bought a 45-70? Great choice BTW!

[TXGunNut]

IMR3031 and Reloader 7 are my go to 45-70s with R7 really coming into its own with 450g.

Did I miss the part where you bought a 45-70? Great choice BTW!

Big fan of Reloder #7 as well but I just scored a pound of 3031, been wanting to re-test that powder for awhile. I think 5744 is probably a better powder. I didn't have much luck with 4064 or Varget but it seemed very promising, may do better in a longer barrel.
I'm North of the Metromess, Grizz44Mag. Grew up in Denton, home of Sam Bass. As you may know he was killed by Texas Rangers and buried in Round Rock.

[Griz44mag]

Yea NV, after spending the last 10 years weaning out the number of calibers, I picked up a new one. I think this brings me to 14 now. I still need to thin the herd some, but just can seem to part with any of them. I ran across a great deal on a CVA APEX, and since I have been also wanting to get into 50 cal muzzleloaders, I can also do that with this one, as the barrels are interchangeable.

[Griz44mag]

TXgunNut, my youngest son lives in Denton, and I spent the last 35 years in Arlington, so I'm pretty familiar with the turf up there. I'm still looking for a jug of 5744 and if I do find one, will do a workup for that too. I have until late December to pick a good load for it, and am looking forward to the workup.

[TXGunNut]

TXgunNut, my youngest son lives in Denton, and I spent the last 35 years in Arlington, so I'm pretty familiar with the turf up there. I'm still looking for a jug of 5744 and if I do find one, will do a workup for that too. I have until late December to pick a good load for it, and am looking forward to the workup.

Last I saw was @ Cabela's, kinda pricey even before all this craziness. How far is Buda from you?

[Griz44mag]

The Cabelas is about 38 miles from me.
A couple of years ago I was looking for a specific powder for a workup and did not want to order quantity from PV yet, and I went in there, but it was not in stock at the store.
They wanted to charge me a hazmat to get it delivered, even to the store.
I asked the person there to just order some with the next batch of powder they ordered, and was told they only get what corp sends them as a regular delivery.
In short, he - they - Cabelas, had not intention of attempting to help me get the powder.
Then I stood back in line again to get a scope they had on sale. After a half hour wait, I was told they were sold out and they had no idea if they would still be on sale when re-stocked, all the while I was standing next to the counter display that proclaimed the big sale.
Needless to say, I have not been back in there, and have not purchased anything else from them.
I'll keep an eye on the mom and pops and on-line, sooner or later, someone will have it in stock.

[TXGunNut]

Haz-Mat charges for items delivered to the store are a mystery to me as well. I don't recall a UPS/Fedex label on other items I've had shipped to the store. I only buy it if it's on the shelf. The guy in the reloading section of the Ft Worth store is pretty knowledgeable and a good guy, to boot. I know a couple of guys behind the gun counter and I'm getting to know a couple in the Gun Library. I'd prefer to support the LGS but in so many ways they just can't compete. My brother has been to the Buda store, he prefers the Ft Worth store when he's in town. It's hard to get good help these days but the guy you spoke with is right, they can't order powder for you. They get what they get and there's little or nothing the guy behind the counter can do.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

Have yet to be in a Cabela's, and the nearest location is 1 1/2 - 2 hours North out of Spokane, Wash., But it is a poor company if there is not communication between store department managers and people at the regional level.

Now, if this is an off the wall powder, I can understand that even with a request through proper channels it might never appear on the local shelves, but for the "standard powders" and yes I know there are MANY now, a company is not meeting their customer needs if they are at least not trying.

Of course, just the opinion of the, -----------

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[DCM]

OK,
I have been presented with an opportunity to go hunt buffalo.
I really want to take my beast with a cast bullet.
So here is a question for those who have hunted 1,000# animals.
Is a 308 Win adequate for hunting buffalo?
Is a 225-250gr lead flat nose adequate for making an ethical kill?
Range will be 100-200 yards.
Backup gun will be .416 Rigby (my hunting buddy) who thinks cannons are going to be too small.
I have also poised this question to the ranch owner, and have not yet received a response.

I would use the heaviest FN boolit you can honestly shoot well.

[TXGunNut]

Have yet to be in a Cabela's, and the nearest location is 1 1/2 - 2 hours North out of Spokane, Wash., But it is a poor company in there is not communication between store department managers and people at the regional level.-CDOC


Agreed. Special orders would be a valuable tool to help determine powders to stock in that particular store. They have some funny ideas about inventory management.